As many as a half million Romani people were killed by the Nazis, according to one estimate. A number that is highly inexact because so little data has been collected about their population either before or after the war, said the museum’s expert on Romani genocide, Krista Hegburg. A new database tells the story of that genocide and its impact on individual lives.
Hundreds of thousands of Roma people, once derisively referred to with the slur Gypsies, were killed by the Nazis. Malíková was one of the few who survived to tell her story. It was recorded in May 1991 and is now featured in “Testimony of Roma and Sinti,” a new database devoted to the Romani genocide of World War II.
The Nazis labeled the Roma as “racially inferior.” They were rounded up, often alongside Jews, but their Holocaust has long been described as “a silenced, forgotten, unnoticed, hidden or muted history,” said Angela Kocze, chair of the Romani Studies program at Central European University in Budapest.
Experts said that in Czech lands that the Nazis occupied and renamed the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, some 90 percent of Roma and Sinti were killed, reducing their population from about 6,000 to 600.
“The Roma voice is very much missing from the mainstream historical narrative,” Kocze said. “Their testimony has been denied, or deflated, and their credibility is questioned. These people aren’t counted, they don’t matter, no one cares about them, even to merely remember them as humans.”
Romani people were commonly portrayed as being uniformly nomadic, poor and unwilling to work, in part because of the effect of Nazi propaganda that dehumanized them, characterizing them as criminals, or “asocials,” explained Čapková.
Kocze said the database was a significant step toward getting their stories told. “It’s legitimizing and giving some authentic voice to Roma, and providing an account of the past to traumatized victims of the Holocaust,” she said. “It’s an act of recognition.”
I've seen so many racist comments directed at Roma(ni) from European redditors, but I've heard similar stuff from French friends IRL. Are those largely remnants of Nazi propaganda?
I've seen so many racist comments directed at Roma(ni) from European redditors, but I've heard similar stuff from French friends IRL. Are those largely remnants of Nazi propaganda?
I don't think it's just from Nazi propaganda; my understanding is that the Roma people were disliked/feared/discriminated against long before then, and Hitler was just organizing that sentiment...
I don't think it's just from Nazi propaganda; my understanding is that the Roma people were disliked/feared/discriminated against long before then, and Hitler was just organizing that sentiment and saying it out loud.
Being wary of outsiders/those not (yet) part of the established community has always been a thing, and since the Roma were frequently nomadic (and brought with them new language, culture, tradition, etc) they were the easy target when an Other was needed.... At this point the discrimination seems, itself, to be a tradition, and one more deeply rooted than can be accounted for by "just" the Nazis.
This is mostly anecdotal, but I've met so many Europeans from all over who are generally kind and accepting and against bigotry... "But the gypsies, man, be careful around them. They'll steal your shit, con you out of the shirt you're wearing, and look at these houses! This is the sketchy part of town, because gypsies live here." It's wild. Like your sweet old aunt who "isn't racist buuuutttttt...."
There's definitely racism against Roma people across Europe, but I would just caution looking at the problem through the lens of, say, race relations in the US. There are real challenges that have...
There's definitely racism against Roma people across Europe, but I would just caution looking at the problem through the lens of, say, race relations in the US. There are real challenges that have come with trying to cooperate with or to integrate the Roma community. (Though most of that is probably tied to distrust instilled over generations of mistreatment)
Yeah. Although I would largely blame the governments for the failure to integrate the Romani communities, I'm thinking for instance of my own country, Hungary. There are many villages that are...
Yeah. Although I would largely blame the governments for the failure to integrate the Romani communities, I'm thinking for instance of my own country, Hungary.
There are many villages that are completely neglected when it comes to e.g. infrastructure and education, and people trying to help haven't been getting the support they need, which naturally perpetuates the situation. I could go on a rant here but in short, with the current government it's a lost cause. I'm sure many other countries are similar, in Slovakia for instance you have Lunik IX which is the epitome of this issue (there are videos about it on YT too for anyone interested)
I think this is important to consider. As an American, the closest comparison I can make to prejudice against Roma is antisemitism. My experience (as someone who identifies as Jewish) is that...
I would just caution looking at the problem through the lens of, say, race relations in the US
I think this is important to consider. As an American, the closest comparison I can make to prejudice against Roma is antisemitism. My experience (as someone who identifies as Jewish) is that Americans tend not to understand or recognize antisemitism because it predates the founding of our country and exists outside of the neat framework within which race-relations and prejudice is typically discussed in the US. In many ways, the Roma people have a history that is similar to that of Jews, so I would not be surprised if there are some parallels (beyond the obvious "we were both targeted during the holocaust").
As someone who very much is not familiar with the Roma people and is viewing it through the "it looks kind of like antisemitism lens," I worry that alleviating poverty-related problems among the Roma people would not be enough to ease the prejudice. After all, as a whole we Jews have seen much success, and yet that just further "proves" we are "scheming swindlers." Seems that the swindler stereotype is applied to the Roma people as well, so my bet is it will persist even if they become as integrated into European communities as Jews have in American communities.
Not even close. I would say you have no idea what you are talking about, but I do not blame you, because you simply cannot know - these topics have become so toxic that anyone who does know...
As someone who very much is not familiar with the Roma people and is viewing it through the "it looks kind of like antisemitism lens,"
Not even close. I would say you have no idea what you are talking about, but I do not blame you, because you simply cannot know - these topics have become so toxic that anyone who does know something real will not participate in a discussion, because merely stating certain observable facts (that cannot be omitted once you delve into the complexities of the problem) will get you banned or labeled as racist. It is sad because these problems will not get resolved without some uncomfortable discussions.
Discussions like this one are why I now never judge things I cannot observe firsthand, things I used to discuss, like Israel-Palestine relationships. I realized I cannot know the facts and I do not want to participate in discussions where people who have no idea discuss fantasies that only exist in their heads.
It's funny because you occasionally get the type of European who insists that Europe just doesn't have racism the way America does, why do you people always have to be so obsessed with race when...
It's funny because you occasionally get the type of European who insists that Europe just doesn't have racism the way America does, why do you people always have to be so obsessed with race when we're begter than that, etc... and then ask them about Roma/travellers and they'll say things so racist you're genuinely surprised they're willing to say it out loud.
I live in the deep south of the US, and "It's not about race, it's their culture" is a phrase I have heard so many times down here, and it's always followed by something racist.
I live in the deep south of the US, and "It's not about race, it's their culture" is a phrase I have heard so many times down here, and it's always followed by something racist.
"No, but you don't understand, g*psies actually are all those bad things we say about them" is another common theme. Edit: shoutout to Deimos for keeping an eye on this thread; I'm heartened to...
"No, but you don't understand, g*psies actually are all those bad things we say about them" is another common theme.
Edit: shoutout to Deimos for keeping an eye on this thread; I'm heartened to see the "Removed by admin" in contexts like these.
I've never met anyone in Europe who thought we didn't have any racism and I've traveled a LOT. I've met plenty people online that perpetuated that story though.
I've never met anyone in Europe who thought we didn't have any racism and I've traveled a LOT. I've met plenty people online that perpetuated that story though.
I mean, it doesn't much matter to me if they're saying it online or in real life. Online is where you're far more likely to encounter anglophone Europeans in bulk discussing this. It's sometimes...
I mean, it doesn't much matter to me if they're saying it online or in real life. Online is where you're far more likely to encounter anglophone Europeans in bulk discussing this. It's sometimes softened to "we don't have racism as bad as the US" with an unspoken "therefore it's not a problem we need to solve" but it is not hard to encounter Europeans saying things like this in anglophone spaces.
This may not reflect the views of a majority of Europeans on the issue, since obviously you're getting some selection bias through interfacing in English and some self-selection by those who participate in the conversation. I live in Europe and I certainly know plenty of people here who are willing to acknowledge the existence of racism. They're just not as loud of a group (especially online) as the "the US is worse so we don't have any problems" crowd.
It's really unfortunate but if the animosity is anything like the commentary surrounding Irish traveller communities, consistently poor experiences with them may be a factor. There's a lot of...
It's really unfortunate but if the animosity is anything like the commentary surrounding Irish traveller communities, consistently poor experiences with them may be a factor. There's a lot of disgusting and ignorant racist rhetoric but also some valid cultural frustrations.
I immediately thought of the Irish traveller community when I saw this post. Whatever experiences people may have had, casual racism is rampant in Ireland. I say this based on decades of...
I immediately thought of the Irish traveller community when I saw this post. Whatever experiences people may have had, casual racism is rampant in Ireland. I say this based on decades of overhearing it.
Not really. It is a very touchy subject. First it is not really a race issue but a cultural issue. A roma person integrated in society is usually very hard to tell apart from a southern european...
Not really. It is a very touchy subject. First it is not really a race issue but a cultural issue. A roma person integrated in society is usually very hard to tell apart from a southern european so it is unlikely that they get called gypsies at all.
The issue is with the groups that self organize and live fairly detached from society, from avoiding taxes, ignoring permits/laws, to delinquency, while at the same time taking financial aids. They raise a ruckus / fight back so people just prefer to avoid problems with them if possible and let them have their way (this many times includes police forces, btw). That causes a lot of resentment.
I'm sure the situation is different from place to place. I'm also sure there are many more cases of people living honestly than causing trouble, but in the end is a trust issue.
The Wikipedia page on the Romani people seems like a good resource, at least, for someone from a North American culture. Seems like there are strong parallels to the systemic discrimination seen...
The Wikipedia page on the Romani people seems like a good resource, at least, for someone from a North American culture. Seems like there are strong parallels to the systemic discrimination seen out here, too.
Nina Siegal
Link to the archived version
I've seen so many racist comments directed at Roma(ni) from European redditors, but I've heard similar stuff from French friends IRL. Are those largely remnants of Nazi propaganda?
I don't think it's just from Nazi propaganda; my understanding is that the Roma people were disliked/feared/discriminated against long before then, and Hitler was just organizing that sentiment and saying it out loud.
Being wary of outsiders/those not (yet) part of the established community has always been a thing, and since the Roma were frequently nomadic (and brought with them new language, culture, tradition, etc) they were the easy target when an Other was needed.... At this point the discrimination seems, itself, to be a tradition, and one more deeply rooted than can be accounted for by "just" the Nazis.
This is mostly anecdotal, but I've met so many Europeans from all over who are generally kind and accepting and against bigotry... "But the gypsies, man, be careful around them. They'll steal your shit, con you out of the shirt you're wearing, and look at these houses! This is the sketchy part of town, because gypsies live here." It's wild. Like your sweet old aunt who "isn't racist buuuutttttt...."
There's definitely racism against Roma people across Europe, but I would just caution looking at the problem through the lens of, say, race relations in the US. There are real challenges that have come with trying to cooperate with or to integrate the Roma community. (Though most of that is probably tied to distrust instilled over generations of mistreatment)
Yeah. Although I would largely blame the governments for the failure to integrate the Romani communities, I'm thinking for instance of my own country, Hungary.
There are many villages that are completely neglected when it comes to e.g. infrastructure and education, and people trying to help haven't been getting the support they need, which naturally perpetuates the situation. I could go on a rant here but in short, with the current government it's a lost cause. I'm sure many other countries are similar, in Slovakia for instance you have Lunik IX which is the epitome of this issue (there are videos about it on YT too for anyone interested)
I think this is important to consider. As an American, the closest comparison I can make to prejudice against Roma is antisemitism. My experience (as someone who identifies as Jewish) is that Americans tend not to understand or recognize antisemitism because it predates the founding of our country and exists outside of the neat framework within which race-relations and prejudice is typically discussed in the US. In many ways, the Roma people have a history that is similar to that of Jews, so I would not be surprised if there are some parallels (beyond the obvious "we were both targeted during the holocaust").
As someone who very much is not familiar with the Roma people and is viewing it through the "it looks kind of like antisemitism lens," I worry that alleviating poverty-related problems among the Roma people would not be enough to ease the prejudice. After all, as a whole we Jews have seen much success, and yet that just further "proves" we are "scheming swindlers." Seems that the swindler stereotype is applied to the Roma people as well, so my bet is it will persist even if they become as integrated into European communities as Jews have in American communities.
Not even close. I would say you have no idea what you are talking about, but I do not blame you, because you simply cannot know - these topics have become so toxic that anyone who does know something real will not participate in a discussion, because merely stating certain observable facts (that cannot be omitted once you delve into the complexities of the problem) will get you banned or labeled as racist. It is sad because these problems will not get resolved without some uncomfortable discussions.
Discussions like this one are why I now never judge things I cannot observe firsthand, things I used to discuss, like Israel-Palestine relationships. I realized I cannot know the facts and I do not want to participate in discussions where people who have no idea discuss fantasies that only exist in their heads.
It's funny because you occasionally get the type of European who insists that Europe just doesn't have racism the way America does, why do you people always have to be so obsessed with race when we're begter than that, etc... and then ask them about Roma/travellers and they'll say things so racist you're genuinely surprised they're willing to say it out loud.
Hell, you had it in this very thread. It’s not racial, it’s cultural! is one way it’s often phrased.
I live in the deep south of the US, and "It's not about race, it's their culture" is a phrase I have heard so many times down here, and it's always followed by something racist.
"No, but you don't understand, g*psies actually are all those bad things we say about them" is another common theme.
Edit: shoutout to Deimos for keeping an eye on this thread; I'm heartened to see the "Removed by admin" in contexts like these.
I've never met anyone in Europe who thought we didn't have any racism and I've traveled a LOT. I've met plenty people online that perpetuated that story though.
I mean, it doesn't much matter to me if they're saying it online or in real life. Online is where you're far more likely to encounter anglophone Europeans in bulk discussing this. It's sometimes softened to "we don't have racism as bad as the US" with an unspoken "therefore it's not a problem we need to solve" but it is not hard to encounter Europeans saying things like this in anglophone spaces.
This may not reflect the views of a majority of Europeans on the issue, since obviously you're getting some selection bias through interfacing in English and some self-selection by those who participate in the conversation. I live in Europe and I certainly know plenty of people here who are willing to acknowledge the existence of racism. They're just not as loud of a group (especially online) as the "the US is worse so we don't have any problems" crowd.
It's really unfortunate but if the animosity is anything like the commentary surrounding Irish traveller communities, consistently poor experiences with them may be a factor. There's a lot of disgusting and ignorant racist rhetoric but also some valid cultural frustrations.
I immediately thought of the Irish traveller community when I saw this post. Whatever experiences people may have had, casual racism is rampant in Ireland. I say this based on decades of overhearing it.
Not really. It is a very touchy subject. First it is not really a race issue but a cultural issue. A roma person integrated in society is usually very hard to tell apart from a southern european so it is unlikely that they get called gypsies at all.
The issue is with the groups that self organize and live fairly detached from society, from avoiding taxes, ignoring permits/laws, to delinquency, while at the same time taking financial aids. They raise a ruckus / fight back so people just prefer to avoid problems with them if possible and let them have their way (this many times includes police forces, btw). That causes a lot of resentment.
I'm sure the situation is different from place to place. I'm also sure there are many more cases of people living honestly than causing trouble, but in the end is a trust issue.
The Wikipedia page on the Romani people seems like a good resource, at least, for someone from a North American culture. Seems like there are strong parallels to the systemic discrimination seen out here, too.