I was reading the misconceptions thread and I was thinking about language use regarding poison and venom, and I was reminded of this video from a couple of days ago about linguistic pedantry, and...
I was reading the misconceptions thread and I was thinking about language use regarding poison and venom, and I was reminded of this video from a couple of days ago about linguistic pedantry, and how English borrows words and not grammar.
Also, Hank says "Coffee is a kind of tea" and it is the most delightfully pedantic thing.
While I understand Americans insisting on saying Chai Tea, this discussion misses a major point: Do the Indians objecting the term have lesser rights over the English language than the Americans?...
While I understand Americans insisting on saying Chai Tea, this discussion misses a major point: Do the Indians objecting the term have lesser rights over the English language than the Americans? I mean just like South African, Nigerian, Trinidadian English, Indian English is a major English dialect by now in 2025. So it is perfectly valid for Subcontinent folks to reject the term used by American English dialect speakers, right?
P.S Technically Chai Tea is also wrong because they’re the names of the same herb in the original language. Like “Meat Steak” or “Mobile Cellphone”
I have never heard an Indian person object to the term "Chai Tea", nor are any of the example in the video people that seem to be of Indian descent. It's notable that half of my family is a huge...
I have never heard an Indian person object to the term "Chai Tea", nor are any of the example in the video people that seem to be of Indian descent. It's notable that half of my family is a huge Indian family, all of whom use the term "Chai Tea". Also, I don't think Hank is advocating for going to India and then saying "It's okay for me to say chai tea!" When you go there, just say "chai".
I think that your PS also misses one of the points - chai tea isn't "wrong because they're names of the same herb". Chai tea is distinct from other types of tea, and Hank points out that the usage of chai in North America matches up with what you would get if you order chai in India.
Saying chai tea here is no more wrong than saying English chai in India. It's perfectly understandable.
Yeah I feel like the chai tea thing was basically a stand-up comedy bit that metastasized and got out of hand. Indians treat it as a funny language quirk and make fun of it, but people getting...
Yeah I feel like the chai tea thing was basically a stand-up comedy bit that metastasized and got out of hand. Indians treat it as a funny language quirk and make fun of it, but people getting angry about it are being performative.
I think that your PS also misses one of the points - chai tea isn't "wrong because they're names of the same herb". Chai tea is distinct from other types of tea, and Hank points out that the usage of chai in North America matches up with what you would get if you order chai in India.
In North India yes, but in South India we say “tea” and it’s generally served the same as chai unless you specify a different method of preparation. There’s actually a fun map of the words for tea across various languages. Basically if you first encountered the beverage by a maritime trade-route the word will be derived from a Southern Chinese language and result in some variation of “te.” If you first got it via an overland trade-route then you end up with a word derived from a Northern Chinese language and end up with a variation of “cha.”
But of course, in India we also have different kinds of chai/tea that all gets rolled up into whatever the weird syrupy concoction Starbucks serves here. There’s Kashmiri pink chai, adrak chai, elaichi chai. . . it’s really a whole subclass of beverages rather than just one. And what is usually served as a chai latte in the US isn’t the method of preparation in India. There we actually brew the tea, add spices, and then mix with milk and boil. Here you pour a boxed syrup in a cup and add steamed milk.
Hank is wrong about “naan bread” though. There’s no need to specify form of bread and there is no context where you might ask for “naan” and have someone accidentally bring you a sourdough loaf. And we don’t really do this with any other form of bread. Sourdough, lavash, baguette, ciabatta, etc. we usually just say the thing. The only exception I can think of is pita where people still say “pita bread.” It seems to be a thing people feel like doing when they’re dealing with “ethnic” stuff. Or maybe it’s a syllable count thing where people are just uncomfortable borrowing single-syllable words and feel the need to gussy them up somehow. But then again, nobody says “roti bread” or “kulcha bread” either.
I've commonly heard Sourdough bread or sourdough buns (heck, you used the term "sourdough loaf"), lavash bread, ciabatta bun or ciabatta bread, so it's almost certainly regional. And I don't think...
And we don’t really do this with any other form of bread. Sourdough, lavash, baguette, ciabatta, etc. we usually just say the thing.
I've commonly heard Sourdough bread or sourdough buns (heck, you used the term "sourdough loaf"), lavash bread, ciabatta bun or ciabatta bread, so it's almost certainly regional.
And I don't think Hank is wrong about naan. The point is that it is a loaner word from another language, and loaner words are sometimes paired with a word for which they are the translation. We say naan bread because that's now a specific thing in the specific dialect of english that we use in this part of the world. It is literally exactly the same as the examples - naan bread, chai tea, hound dog. We (and I use the "we" very loosely) straight up stole the word from another language, and we turned it into a term in ours, and we're not saying it to make sure we don't get sourdough, we're saying it because we compartmentalize it as bread, and saying "type of bread" + "bread" is a thing that we do in this dialect.
When people say “bun” or “loaf” they’re usually referring to the form the bread takes, not to class it as bread at all. It’s more like the difference between saying “oak table” and “oak wood table.”
(heck, you used the term "sourdough loaf")
When people say “bun” or “loaf” they’re usually referring to the form the bread takes, not to class it as bread at all. It’s more like the difference between saying “oak table” and “oak wood table.”
Regardless, people here commonly say sourdough bread, lavash bread, etc. That's not about form and when I typed "lavash" into google, it wanted to autocomplete "lavash bread" for me. It's just a...
Regardless, people here commonly say sourdough bread, lavash bread, etc. That's not about form and when I typed "lavash" into google, it wanted to autocomplete "lavash bread" for me.
It's just a thing that this dialect of English does. And I recognize that it likely doesn't where you are. But that doesn't make the video wrong, it's just the whole point of the video.
I didn’t say he was wrong as in “it’s not a thing English speakers do.” I meant he was wrong as in “you sound stupid when you do this.” Yeah it’s subjective, but it’s the case.
I didn’t say he was wrong as in “it’s not a thing English speakers do.” I meant he was wrong as in “you sound stupid when you do this.” Yeah it’s subjective, but it’s the case.
Well, to be honest, I think that linguistic prescriptivists sound pretty stupid, but here we are. Judging someone for speaking their dialect the way that they learnt it seems like a pretty bad...
Well, to be honest, I think that linguistic prescriptivists sound pretty stupid, but here we are. Judging someone for speaking their dialect the way that they learnt it seems like a pretty bad call, with things rooted in a lot of bad -isms.
That's actually just linguistic prescriptivism; the idea that there are correct and incorrect ways to use a language, and that certain usage patterns should be preferred over others If you think...
That's actually just linguistic prescriptivism; the idea that there are correct and incorrect ways to use a language, and that certain usage patterns should be preferred over others If you think that someone sounds stupid because they use the language differently from you, then you are a linguistic prescriptivist.
I misquoted you to say that "hoist" is the past tense of "hoise" already. I figured weighing in with a pedantic correction would be h i l a r i o u s to do here, and if you disagree you're a big...
Hoise-ed-ed by my own petard
I misquoted you to say that "hoist" is the past tense of "hoise" already.
I figured weighing in with a pedantic correction would be h i l a r i o u s to do here, and if you disagree you're a big meanie. ;-)
"Hoist" is not the past tense of "hoise," but merely an alteration of the Middle English verb "hoise." Its present tense is still "hoist." That said, the past participle of "hoist" is (or at least...
"Hoist" is not the past tense of "hoise," but merely an alteration of the Middle English verb "hoise." Its present tense is still "hoist." That said, the past participle of "hoist" is (or at least was) "hoist," and that is what was being used in the famous Hamlet quote, so you're not really wrong there.
Fun fact -- probably also where we got the word "heist"!
The bread thing is a weird to me because, at least locally, EVERYONE says "sourdough bread" or "French bread", "wholegrain bread", etc. Conversely, I usually only hear people say "naan", not "naan...
The bread thing is a weird to me because, at least locally, EVERYONE says "sourdough bread" or "French bread", "wholegrain bread", etc. Conversely, I usually only hear people say "naan", not "naan bread". I don't know if it is because naan isn't like a traditional loaf of bread and is more like a pita or wrap, but I just think it is an interesting observation. It is likely highly regional.
A lot of that is because those descriptors mean something totally different if you don’t specify what you’re talking about. Without the “bread” French is a language, wholegrain is a pile of...
A lot of that is because those descriptors mean something totally different if you don’t specify what you’re talking about. Without the “bread” French is a language, wholegrain is a pile of unprocessed cereals, and sourdough is a fermented dough. But without the bread “naan” is. . .naan.
Where in South India do they say Tea? I’ve lived in South India and it was just Chaa e.g. “Anna, Oru Chaa kudinge” in Madurai or Palakkad. Also I don’t think anyone’s being angry, we’re just...
Where in South India do they say Tea? I’ve lived in South India and it was just Chaa e.g. “Anna, Oru Chaa kudinge” in Madurai or Palakkad.
Also I don’t think anyone’s being angry, we’re just having a bit fun because it’s in the title 😜
In Telugu and Kannada I’ve mostly heard “tea.” “Chai” is also said but I feel it’s more of a Hindi loan. There’s been a lot of creolization with Hindi and English over the past decade I think.
In Telugu and Kannada I’ve mostly heard “tea.” “Chai” is also said but I feel it’s more of a Hindi loan. There’s been a lot of creolization with Hindi and English over the past decade I think.
It could just be because my family speaks a pidgin version of Kannada that’s mixed up with a lot of Telugu. And there is also the time-capsule effect of being abroad since I was a kid.
It could just be because my family speaks a pidgin version of Kannada that’s mixed up with a lot of Telugu. And there is also the time-capsule effect of being abroad since I was a kid.
Most of the time it never gets brought up and I rarely drink chia tea. I had one Indian co-worker that was just bothered in general about it saying its one of those things he hates about how we...
I have never heard an Indian person object to the term "Chai Tea"
Most of the time it never gets brought up and I rarely drink chia tea. I had one Indian co-worker that was just bothered in general about it saying its one of those things he hates about how we speak here. I kept correcting him to "chia tea" and by the end of the day he was accidentally saying "chia tea" at which point I would say SEE! MUAHAHAHA! He was kind of into languages in general though so I can see why he in particular was irritated by it.
I think most people probably just accept "chia tea" as how we say it over here and there are only a few people that get bothered and say something.
Its dumber than that. I actually spelled it correctly but chai left me with the red line underneath so I just assumed that my phone was right. Also I forgot that chia seeds were a thing.
Its dumber than that. I actually spelled it correctly but chai left me with the red line underneath so I just assumed that my phone was right. Also I forgot that chia seeds were a thing.
Thank you for writing this comment, you’re helping me make my point how the ghost of post colonialism isn’t dead yet. Sir this is the Internet. Do you mean to say only Americans have rights over...
Thank you for writing this comment, you’re helping me make my point how the ghost of post colonialism isn’t dead yet.
don't think Hank is advocating for going to India.
Sir this is the Internet. Do you mean to say only Americans have rights over naming things here?I mean they don’t even have a Tea culture there like say Tajikistan or Taiwan.
Regarding my PS about Chai vs Tea: It is called Chai be half of the world, not just India. Rest call it Tea. Each of these cultures know the other word for Tea/Chá based on my extensive travels.
I have never heard an Indian person object to the term "Chai Tea"
Bhai sahab I’m Indian and it’s a running joke in India, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I think that your comments are very uncharitable and also unkind ways of interpreting what I am writing and what the video is saying. No, that is not what I, nor the video, is saying. There is no...
I think that your comments are very uncharitable and also unkind ways of interpreting what I am writing and what the video is saying.
Do you mean to say only Americans have rights over naming things here?
No, that is not what I, nor the video, is saying. There is no claim being made in the video that the only correct way to say it on the internet is "Chai Tea" and the people who are complaining are wrooong.
The video is saying that in North America, it's valid to call it chai tea. There is no claim that we should be correcting people who just say "chai" or that other locations do not have the right to call chai whatever they want to call it. There's no post colonialism; just linguistic descriptivism.
And to go back to fix something in a previous comment:
I have never heard an Indian person object to the term "Chai Tea" in North America
That's on me, I should have been more specific. However, my point stands - Indian people here don't all cringe when someone white says chai tea, and in fact it is relatively common usage.
I think that linguistic post colonialism would require some kind of linguistic prescriptivism - some level of "you should say this, because this is the right thing and not the other thing, because that is the wrong thing". But this is just linguistic descriptivism - looking at the usage and explaining it.
The point I was trying to make is that pedantically and in bad spirit telling a North American person that they're wrong for saying "chai tea" is exactly the same as someone going to India and pedantically and in bad spirit telling someone there that they're wrong for saying "chai". It's not what is advocated for in the video. There are comments in the vein of enlightenment that he explicitly calls out as acceptable.
The people commenting on Hanks video were posting on the general internet, and last time I checked, Internet belongs to everyone not just USAmericans. The fact that you’re assuming that it’s...
The people commenting on Hanks video were posting on the general internet, and last time I checked, Internet belongs to everyone not just USAmericans.
The fact that you’re assuming that it’s “North America” by default is exactly what I was trying to highlight. Adding NA it later is shifting goalposts in my opinion. I suspect countries Mexico and its South don’t feature in this definition of North America, but that’s besides the point.
Just like people are free to call it Chai tea latte or whatever, people are also free to ridicule and laugh at them. We can’t stop anyone on the internet 🙂
My man: Hank is in North America. He's talking about his usage, because the way he is using it is valid. It would be wrong for him to say "hey, everyone in India isn't saying chai tea and they're...
My man: Hank is in North America. He's talking about his usage, because the way he is using it is valid. It would be wrong for him to say "hey, everyone in India isn't saying chai tea and they're wrong, because the proper way is to say chai tea." But that's not what is happening.
people are also free to ridicule and laugh at them.
Sorry, I envision a life where people who are assholes get called out. And laughing at people for using their language properly is wrong.
And now you're picking at "North America" too. PLEASE read this: The Principle of Charity and try to understand it.
You're the one who is constantly moving goalposts and bringing up things that are not in any way inferred or implied by the video.
Since "the internet belongs to everyone and not just USAmericans", then I would argue that it's a place to be welcoming of how people use language, and not disparaging. It would be wrong of me to correct any usages that you have that aren't how we use things in North America (and I'm saying North America because I'm Canadian). And it's wrong of you to correct us for our usages. We are using different dialects of the language, and our dialect is fine, just like your dialect is fine. You keep coming back to this "who is allowed to have rights on the English language" and the answer is "all the english speakers".
You are effectively saying that your dialect of English is the right one, and ours is the wrong one, while simultaneously complaining that people in North America say that they're right and you're wrong. Well, everyone who says that their dialect is right and other dialects are wrong is wrong.
This video is about how linguistic prescriptivists - ie. people who think that there are rules about how a language must be written or spoken, or otherwise you are incorrect - are silly. And you are being silly by being a linguistic prescriptivist.
I think we got into a contrarian loop here so let me try and break out of it peacefully. I understand your point: Hank can use Chai Tea latte, Touché, Naan Bread etc because it might make sense in...
I think we got into a contrarian loop here so let me try and break out of it peacefully.
I understand your point: Hank can use Chai Tea latte, Touché, Naan Bread etc because it might make sense in his location. No disagreement here.
I hope you understand my point: On the internet it is wrong to assume everyone is from the USA. More countries speak English and only US norms don’t apply.
My point about ridicule was about current state of internet in general. People are assholes on the internet these days. It’s a cesspit of negativity out there. I hope we can close the case now.
I think the issue to me is that you brought up something that's not really anything to do with the video, and then argued about it in the context of the video? I'm certainly not assuming that...
I think the issue to me is that you brought up something that's not really anything to do with the video, and then argued about it in the context of the video?
I'm certainly not assuming that everyone on the internet is from the USA - I'm not from the USA. But nothing about the video was about that? You just introduced it as a side quest.
And yes, people are assholes on the internet. I'll call them on it forever.
The way I saw it: Hank, an American says people are commenting on the internet that it’s not “Chai Tea” and he dismissed it. This to me felt like “defaulting to American” which is what my main...
The way I saw it: Hank, an American says people are commenting on the internet that it’s not “Chai Tea” and he dismissed it.
This to me felt like “defaulting to American” which is what my main point was. It was completely relevant to the discussion. It might have stemmed from the blatant racism I’ve seen against Indians in the recent past.
Then you went ahead and qualified it extra by adding “in North America”. Obviously I read that as you doubling down on that. Did I go overboard, maybe, but that’s what we are doing here, right (nitpicking)
So here we are now: I understand your POV and I just explained mine. Feel free to agree or disagree. These are just opinions after all, not laws of Cricket.
From the bottom of my heart and with all the positive sincerity I have, I deeply apologize for raising any feelings of racism against Indians. It was not my intent, but intents and actions can be...
It might have stemmed from the blatant racism I’ve seen against Indians in the recent past.
From the bottom of my heart and with all the positive sincerity I have, I deeply apologize for raising any feelings of racism against Indians. It was not my intent, but intents and actions can be miles apart from each other, and I am sorry for any action that I took or anything that I said that made you feel like there was a racial element to what I was saying.
I also want to say that I fully understand that aggravation with "defaulting to American" on the internet, and it is a problem. I apologize that I didn't understand the issue that you were bringing up earlier. I want to be very clear that Indians having a laugh about Americans saying "Chai Tea" (or "naan bread" or any other clunky linguistic things) is totally acceptable! There are loads of linguistic peculiarities in every dialect of English. To explain a bit about where I'm coming from, I think that those differences in dialects are delightful and should be thoroughly celebrated in a positive way. I love the different flavours that people impart to language, whether its based on ethnicity, location, or other things.
I only added the "in North America" because I think it's important context, and I was trying to say that my experience with my family being in North America is certainly different from yours, especially if you are in India. I was also trying to explain that I was not trying to speak for any people in India; I've never been to India, and was trying to note that my experiences here cannot be the same as your experiences there. I was explicitly trying not to claim to be speaking for you, but only to you.
But I sometimes get carried away and then speak at people which is what I was doing here. So I apologize for that as well.
Oh dear, now I feel sorry for making you feel that way. It’s my turn to apologise and I’m sorry for the terse comments. Please, there’s no need to apologise, you did nothing wrong. You were...
Oh dear, now I feel sorry for making you feel that way. It’s my turn to apologise and I’m sorry for the terse comments. Please, there’s no need to apologise, you did nothing wrong. You were absolutely courteous and I didn’t see an ounce of racism. The fact that you wrote this comment shows that you’ve got a golden heart.
All this while I thought we are just having a Chautaqua or agora style friendly banter and testing each other’s defences. I hang out around Talebian communities and live in Germany, so perhaps my communication style is a bit direct.
Let’s end this on a positive note and learn from this experience. Live long and prosper 🖖
Not the least I have gotten out of this is learning that there is a Vulcan salute emoji. No need to feel sorry! Race is one of those issues where I try to tread carefully and be explicitly on the...
🖖
Not the least I have gotten out of this is learning that there is a Vulcan salute emoji.
No need to feel sorry! Race is one of those issues where I try to tread carefully and be explicitly on the anti-racist side, and anti-Indian (or anti-brown-person in general) racism is something that I see with alarming regularity, even in Canada, and try to always stand up and speak out against, but I also recognize that I'm a latecomer to the issue, having married into my brown family, so sometimes I don't see things that have racial implications as having racial implications. So thanks for pointing it out to me, and again I am sorry for not seeing that part of it. I see now that it is obviously what you were saying and talking about, but I just didn't get it.
I appreciate the directness, I tend to meander. May you also live long and prosper!
Or Sahara Desert. I don't think anyone is obligated to use the term "chai tea" it's just that it's sensical in American English, but I'm sure Indian English(s) are as different from American...
Or Sahara Desert. I don't think anyone is obligated to use the term "chai tea" it's just that it's sensical in American English, but I'm sure Indian English(s) are as different from American English(s) as British English is at least.
It's perfectly valid for them to reject using it in their speaker communities. It is not valid for them to insist that any other speaker community conform their language to their arbitrary...
So it is perfectly valid for Subcontinent folks to reject the term used by American English dialect speakers, right?
It's perfectly valid for them to reject using it in their speaker communities. It is not valid for them to insist that any other speaker community conform their language to their arbitrary standard. Multiple dialects can exist using words in different ways, even if something would be "wrong" in one dialect it can be correct in another. While currently Indian English speakers don't have the structural power to enforce their language opinions on American English speakers anyway, we have no shortage of examples of languages and dialects being oppressed and stigmatized for not conforming to the "right" way of speaking their language -- and this is a bad thing. It's also a bad thing that has generally impacted Indian English and dialects like it more negatively than positively. For every "chai tea" there's plenty of "do one thing," ending sentences with "only," "passing out" from university, and many more uniquely Indian English expressions that would be considered "wrong" in standard English as spoken in England or the US. But in all these cases, that doesn't mean it's wrong. Systems that prescribe one "correct" way to speak English tend to come down on minority dialects like Indian English and unfairly try to stifle language change for arbitrary reasons. Just because two dialects do things differently doesn't mean one of them has to be wrong. It's natural and nigh-universal for loanwords to develop a different range of meanings in the language that borrowed them compared to their source language, just as it's common for dialects spoken by populations living far apart to develop different, incompatible grammar and vocabulary.
Is this claim really being made by these non-Ami communities? I've not seen it anywhere so far. They're rightfully rejecting it and ridiculing it on the internet which belongs to everyone. Just...
It is not valid for them to insist that any other speaker community conform their language to their arbitrary standard
Is this claim really being made by these non-Ami communities? I've not seen it anywhere so far.
They're rightfully rejecting it and ridiculing it on the internet which belongs to everyone. Just like Americans took the English language and ran with it, Indians (and others) are doing it now. After all languages evolve and flow like a river. Linguists only study them post-hoc.
I think it's also important to remember while this is true, England itself also evolved and ran with their own language. Some Americanisms are Americanisms, but some differences are actually where...
Just like Americans took the English language and ran with it,
I think it's also important to remember while this is true, England itself also evolved and ran with their own language. Some Americanisms are Americanisms, but some differences are actually where England changed English, and some of the American differences are the original, not the evolutions.
The biggest one is probably received pronunciation, i.e. the dropping of r's in many places.
But also notably, what we think of as an "Irish" accent is close to how they spoke in London for a while centuries ago. London evolved, Ireland evolved less (and differently). But listening to videos of people recreating those dialects and accents going back in time, it's wild to hear just how much things shifted.
Actually, let me see if I can find one. Well, Simon Roper is the guy I was thinking of, although this isn't theone I was thinking of that really shows of the Irish period, but it is another one that I found fascinating when I found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXv3Tt4x20&ab_channel=SimonRoper — the premise is basically through the centuries, as if an older family member was recording or being recorded as they reminisced about their life - growing up in like the family house - someone recording it for posterity sort of thing. I think it's fascinating, and a lot of Simon's work is really amazing.
Yes, people have been running away with languages since ages. Since this is ~humanities.languages, I can safely add my experience in other languages I speak. E.g. Althochdeutsch or SennTamil from...
Yes, people have been running away with languages since ages. Since this is ~humanities.languages, I can safely add my experience in other languages I speak. E.g. Althochdeutsch or SennTamil from ancient times is highly unintelligible for me.
However there is one notable exception to this trend of free language evolution: Sanskrit. You can easily read Sanskrit from Ashtadhyayi from 6th BCE the same way as Sadratnamala from 18th CE. But I'm digressing, Indian linguistics is a whole different ball game than English.
I agree, languages evolve and move like a river! Using phrases like "chai tea" differently is just one tiny drop in that river. Indian English speakers are free to laugh, but that doesn't make the...
I agree, languages evolve and move like a river! Using phrases like "chai tea" differently is just one tiny drop in that river. Indian English speakers are free to laugh, but that doesn't make the way Americans use the term "wrong" any more than the expressions in Indian English are wrong. They're just different.
I'm not particularly convinced it will in this case, but it could in situations where the people laughing have power over the people using the construction. I think "chai tea" is pretty...
I'm not particularly convinced it will in this case, but it could in situations where the people laughing have power over the people using the construction. I think "chai tea" is pretty well-entrenched in English outside India and is unlikely to change based on this, though.
I'm going to throw this down: Americans need to get used to having less claim on the English language than the combined masses of up and coming speakers across Asia and Africa. India alone has...
I'm going to throw this down: Americans need to get used to having less claim on the English language than the combined masses of up and coming speakers across Asia and Africa. India alone has almost 230 million English speakers, which is getting close to the size of the US population.
The phenomenon that produced "bento box" and "chai tea" is wildly common throughout any language that borrows dishes and vocabulary. The only reason English (and specifically American English)...
The phenomenon that produced "bento box" and "chai tea" is wildly common throughout any language that borrows dishes and vocabulary. The only reason English (and specifically American English) loans from other languages get this treatment is because more people are aware of them. Japanese has an absolute shitton of English loans that don't match what the words mean in English either.
"Chai tea" is fine. I don't see it often but whatever. Maybe it's tautologous but that's OK. I mostly only ever see people use "chai" on it's own to refer to Indian-style spiced black tea with...
"Chai tea" is fine. I don't see it often but whatever. Maybe it's tautologous but that's OK. I mostly only ever see people use "chai" on it's own to refer to Indian-style spiced black tea with milk.
But chai latte can get in the sea. Latte is a coffee-based drink and chai is a tea-based drink and both words are also used to mean "spiced with cardamom/etc" and "with milk" respectively. So how the merry fuck am I supposed to know what chai latte is?
Is it, like pumpkin spice latte, a coffee drink with spices and milk?
Or is it, like matcha latte, a tea drink with spices and milk?
I have ordered chai latte and got a vile coffee drink on several occasions. I can't stand coffee at the best of times but with chai spices it's somehow even worse.
This is admittedly somewhat off topic but I'm mad about it.
I understand your passion about it, but... it's honestly pretty understandable? A latte is a strong coffee with foamed milk. A chai latte is a chai with foamed milk. Do you really not understand,...
I understand your passion about it, but... it's honestly pretty understandable? A latte is a strong coffee with foamed milk. A chai latte is a chai with foamed milk. Do you really not understand, or are you being comedic?
I do not drink coffee or tea, but I always assumed a chai latte would be a coffee flavoured with spices, tbh. I don't think the name is obvious. That said, I find none of the names for coffees and...
I do not drink coffee or tea, but I always assumed a chai latte would be a coffee flavoured with spices, tbh. I don't think the name is obvious.
That said, I find none of the names for coffees and few of the names for teas obvious. It was only last year that I found out that pumpkin latte has nothing to do with pumpkins (other than the season). So maybe there's an extra coffee language that you need to learn and it all makes sense? Is there a Duolingo course for coffee drinking?
Whoever told you it was called it that was wrong. It's normally called a "pumpkin spice latte" because it's made with the spices you'd put in pumpkin pie.
pumpkin latte has nothing to do with pumpkins
Whoever told you it was called it that was wrong. It's normally called a "pumpkin spice latte" because it's made with the spices you'd put in pumpkin pie.
That's a fair point - if one is not familiar with coffee or tea, then this is likely not obvious. There is a whole other set of jargon related to coffee. Mostly a chart like this one would be...
That's a fair point - if one is not familiar with coffee or tea, then this is likely not obvious.
There is a whole other set of jargon related to coffee. Mostly a chart like this one would be sufficient, but even more basically, most of the terms are for some amount of espresso, some amount of hot water, some amount of milk, some amount of froth. In this specific instance, "cafe latte" means "coffee with milk" and is usually given with steamed milk with quite a bit of froth. If one had that knowledge, and also knew that Chai was - in western countries, anyways - tea prepared in a particular way, then the jump to chai latte seems pretty straightforward.
Strictly speaking I think most of the non-obvious coffee terms come from Italian. Certainly speaking Italian would make the meaning of "latte" clearer, as it's the Italian word for "milk". But for...
Is there a Duolingo course for coffee drinking?
Strictly speaking I think most of the non-obvious coffee terms come from Italian. Certainly speaking Italian would make the meaning of "latte" clearer, as it's the Italian word for "milk". But for more specifics, such as the difference between a latte and a cappuccino despite them both being espresso with steamed milk, you're probably better off just asking a barista or looking at an infographic online. Some coffee shops will have a poster or something up in the shop itself, but generally speaking people who drink coffee will learn one or two common drinks where they live and people who work in coffee or are otherwise aficionados will learn more.
This is confused a bit by Starbucks using common coffee drink names and serving very different drinks with those names sometimes. Local shops will either mimic this or (IME) clarify with you...
This is confused a bit by Starbucks using common coffee drink names and serving very different drinks with those names sometimes. Local shops will either mimic this or (IME) clarify with you exactly what a macchiato is. (If they're nice). So sometimes you need to double check.
I wouldn't consider a macchiato a common coffee drink in the US anyway, but yeah things like that can be confused by both your region and the influence of big chains like Starbucks. Here in...
I wouldn't consider a macchiato a common coffee drink in the US anyway, but yeah things like that can be confused by both your region and the influence of big chains like Starbucks. Here in Germany they differentiate latte macchiato and cafe macchiato as well as having a separate Milchkaffee that's very similar to a latte macchiato (both are more or less what you'd call a latte in the US).
It's not uncommon to order them at starbucks, especially iced, and they were really popular for a while. It was just the first example of a drastic difference. I'm never sure I've tracked the...
It's not uncommon to order them at starbucks, especially iced, and they were really popular for a while. It was just the first example of a drastic difference. I'm never sure I've tracked the difference in some of the finicky espresso + milk options correctly.
I order a cortado at one local shop though when I'm feeling slightly self loathing (a running espresso joke for me) and a seasonal latte or apple chaider (half hot (soft)cider, half chai tea, no latte) from the other but don't drink Starbucks or Dunkin unless it's free, and even then....
So I'm not necessarily representative of typical American coffee culture. (We did just have a Scooters open up on my way to work with a drive thru so I'll have to try them out)
Edit: hit rate limit so
My point was that people go somewhere else and try to order a Starbucks macchiato (or whatever their Starbucks order is), not that they particularly like the actual thing they're ordering if that makes sense? I don't think they're popular at other shops other than that misunderstanding leading to ordering the wrong drink. @sparksbet
Yeah I know they're popular at Starbucks specifically (they especially were when I was a teen), but since at Starbucks they're just a latte where you don't mix it to have the aesthetic layers, I...
Yeah I know they're popular at Starbucks specifically (they especially were when I was a teen), but since at Starbucks they're just a latte where you don't mix it to have the aesthetic layers, I don't think they're very common anywhere else. Latte macchiatos here are just what they'd call a latte in the US, but served in a glass rather than a mug lol.
Being read awkwardly at a podium, from my notes app I once again apologize for the indignities America has imposed on foodways outside of our own traditions. This is not, as far as I know, an...
Being read awkwardly at a podium, from my notes app
I once again apologize for the indignities America has imposed on foodways outside of our own traditions. This is not, as far as I know, an instance of immigrants adapting their own food/beverage traditions, simply a desire to make more money. There is not really even a good excuse for this one.
I'm pretty sure one cafe near me actually puts pumpkin in theirs and its amazing. Just to make things extra confusing. Their pumkin spice frap/iced drink is like drinking a pumpkin pie with some...
I'm pretty sure one cafe near me actually puts pumpkin in theirs and its amazing. Just to make things extra confusing.
Their pumkin spice frap/iced drink is like drinking a pumpkin pie with some coffee mixed in. 10/10
Adding pumpkin to a pumpkin spice latte is completely unnecessary and does nothing to actually improve the taste of the drink. Pumpkin doesn't have much flavor to bring to the table and would at...
Adding pumpkin to a pumpkin spice latte is completely unnecessary and does nothing to actually improve the taste of the drink. Pumpkin doesn't have much flavor to bring to the table and would at best add color and texture. The PSL at Starbucks got MUCH worse when they added pumpkin to it (presumably because of ignorant people whining about it not having any) and I don't even buy it anymore -- other places sometimes follow suit because this has set the (stupid) expectation that pumpkin spice lattes should contain pumpkin. I think any good pumpkin spice latte that includes real pumpkin is good for reasons more or less wholly unrelated to the inclusion of actual pumpkin -- it's the quality and choice of spices that matters.
Chai is a spiced milk tea, but the word also refers to the spice mixture (eg, chai cheesecake). Latte is a specific type of milky coffee, but the word is also used to mean 'drink with milk' (eg...
Chai is a spiced milk tea, but the word also refers to the spice mixture (eg, chai cheesecake). Latte is a specific type of milky coffee, but the word is also used to mean 'drink with milk' (eg matcha latte). Although thinking about it, I've had hot chocolate made with steamed milk and that's never been sold as chocolate latte... So that usage is inconsistent. I know there's a different word for the coffee and chocolate drink but it currently eludes me. Not a coffee person.
The point is that it's not possible to know a priori how whoever wrote the menu you're looking at is using those words. There's no reason that a chai latte has to be tea, it could be a chai spiced coffee, like the example I gave of pumpkin spice latte, another "named spice mix + latte" construction.
This would not be a problem if I had not ordered chai latte several times in my life and been given a coffee drink made with milk and spices. Which, from the common usage of the words used to describe it in British English, I believe to be a legitimate description. That's never happened with matcha latte so I'm not mad about that.
Fair point, I'm not trying to call out your lived experience. I am astonished that a coffee shop would serve a chai coffee latte without spelling that out explicitly as a dirty chai latte, and I...
Fair point, I'm not trying to call out your lived experience. I am astonished that a coffee shop would serve a chai coffee latte without spelling that out explicitly as a dirty chai latte, and I would probably never return to that shop (as a coffee person), or I would be asking explicit questions every time I ordered.
Actually, this whole sidebar has gotten me to appreciate the local places I attend, which all have explanations of each of the drinks written out explaining what they are. And have given me even more of a disappreciation for Starbucks.
Latte is just short for "cafe latte" the way "chai latte" is short for "chai tea latte" I cannot explain coffee shops that would give a chai cafe latte though without that being obvious somehow....
Latte is just short for "cafe latte" the way "chai latte" is short for "chai tea latte"
I cannot explain coffee shops that would give a chai cafe latte though without that being obvious somehow. But at least I think it'd taste good
Chai spiced coffee is pretty disgusting but then I don't like coffee except as a cake flavour. I know coffee people like cardamom in coffee so I imagine if you like that then chai coffee would be...
Chai spiced coffee is pretty disgusting but then I don't like coffee except as a cake flavour. I know coffee people like cardamom in coffee so I imagine if you like that then chai coffee would be pretty good.
If it had only happened to me once I'd write it off as a mistake by the cafe staff, but it's happened multiple times in different places.
A chai-spiced coffee would probably be very similar to a pumpkin spice latte (at least at the places that haven't started pointlessly adding actual pumpkin to a drink that never needed it) -- the...
A chai-spiced coffee would probably be very similar to a pumpkin spice latte (at least at the places that haven't started pointlessly adding actual pumpkin to a drink that never needed it) -- the spice blends are very similar. Most coffee places that have a chai latte will also serve you a "dirty chai" if you order it, which is a chai latte with a shot of espresso.
Sure I'm not saying it would taste bad - though I mentioned elsewhere I don't like a dirty chai - just that it's not intuitive since in my experience menus specify "cafe latte" and "chai tea...
Sure I'm not saying it would taste bad - though I mentioned elsewhere I don't like a dirty chai - just that it's not intuitive since in my experience menus specify "cafe latte" and "chai tea latte" or the "chai" is an option under "tea latte" or something
I don't like most pumpkin spice coffee blends but I have had a chai that tasted like the way pumpkin pie spice smells in the best way. Idk why they're not all that good.
Syrups are the better choice for these drinks usually anyway, since you don't get the clumps you'd get actually adding the spices. Nice bougie cafes might make their own syrups with spices...
Syrups are the better choice for these drinks usually anyway, since you don't get the clumps you'd get actually adding the spices. Nice bougie cafes might make their own syrups with spices themselves rather than just ordering it from a big brand, though.
Chai is not spiced milk tea, the drink you're talking about is called masala chai. Chay/Chai/Chá is the standard word for tea in various cultures apart from India. E.g. It is called Jogi Tea in...
Chai is a spiced milk tea
Chai is not spiced milk tea, the drink you're talking about is called masala chai. Chay/Chai/Chá is the standard word for tea in various cultures apart from India. E.g. It is called Jogi Tea in Germany, and other cultures definitely has different names to it like Thé Mélange
But I agree with your general point: Chai latte should get you Tea in latte style.
Sorry if this sounds like nitpick: I'm really passionate about Chai and have it many times a day :-)
You are correct but in colloquial British English if you ask for chai, you'll get masala chai. Unless it's specified as ghur chai or adraki chai or whatever. One of my local cafes has a chai menu...
You are correct but in colloquial British English if you ask for chai, you'll get masala chai. Unless it's specified as ghur chai or adraki chai or whatever. One of my local cafes has a chai menu and it makes me very happy. It's nice to see more types of tea than coffee on a board for a change..
I believe this entire thread is about nitpicking :)
I actually thought the thread would be about how nitpicking things like this are futile, and how linguistic prescriptivists are a silly lot... but here we are, it is about nitpicking.
I actually thought the thread would be about how nitpicking things like this are futile, and how linguistic prescriptivists are a silly lot... but here we are, it is about nitpicking.
I think you probably missed a lot of previous threads in which the prescriptivists came out in full force lol. There are descriptivists on Tildes, but I suspect we're a minority, at least among...
I think you probably missed a lot of previous threads in which the prescriptivists came out in full force lol. There are descriptivists on Tildes, but I suspect we're a minority, at least among those who leave comments. And of course there are plenty of people who are almost descriptivists... until it comes to their particular pet peeves!
For me it's needs washed but given I have family in Scotland it's a construction I encounter quite often. Although, just to nitpick for a moment, I'm not really of the opinion that I get to...
For me it's needs washed but given I have family in Scotland it's a construction I encounter quite often.
Although, just to nitpick for a moment, I'm not really of the opinion that I get to proscribe how people use the words 'chai' and 'latte', I just find it annoying when meaning gets confused due to usage shifting. I think that's subtly different from outright prescriptivism - which in the context of linguistics is of course nonsense.
If I were to have the experience you described above in a coffee shop, I would be miffed. Heck, I looked at a Starbucks menu and that was enough to thoroughly annoy me. I think that there's...
If I were to have the experience you described above in a coffee shop, I would be miffed. Heck, I looked at a Starbucks menu and that was enough to thoroughly annoy me.
I think that there's definitely room in linguistic descriptivism for annoyance at just calling something the wrong thing. If I had a picture of a tiger, and it was labelled "dog", I wouldn't be a prescriptivist if I said it was wrong, and similarly, you're not wrong for saying that what you got isn't a chai latte, or that there's often confusion in what a chai latte even is.
Afaik Jogi-Tee typically refers to tea made just from the blend of spices that doesn't contain any of the tea plant. Germans widely use "chai" and "chai latte" the same way as in English (albeit...
It is called Jogi Tea in Germany
Afaik Jogi-Tee typically refers to tea made just from the blend of spices that doesn't contain any of the tea plant. Germans widely use "chai" and "chai latte" the same way as in English (albeit pronounced more German-ly).
Next door, in Czechia, Jogi tea is equivalent to masala and contains actual tea, so even this is not something you can rely on, lol. And to make matters worse we call all tea "čaj", but at the...
Next door, in Czechia, Jogi tea is equivalent to masala and contains actual tea, so even this is not something you can rely on, lol. And to make matters worse we call all tea "čaj", but at the same time some cafes started offering drinks like chai latte, written like this and with the same meaning as in english, so chai and čaj sound the same but sometimes mean two different things.
I've never actually encountered Jogi-Tee here in Germany, only chai lattes (both at the grocery store and in cafes), but I was able to find references to it online so it's a thing somewhere ig....
I've never actually encountered Jogi-Tee here in Germany, only chai lattes (both at the grocery store and in cafes), but I was able to find references to it online so it's a thing somewhere ig. The only clarity the references gave was that it's considered a hippe-dippy natural thing, but I live in Berlin and have never encountered it despite seeing plenty of that stuff. Granted, I'm more in the coffee scene than the natural medicine scene, so maybe that's where I'd find it. The blends I saw being sold online were all just spices, but maybe you were supposed to blend them with black tea or smth? idk. Further complicating matters was the fact that there's an American tea brand called Yogi Tea sold here, which dominates even the German-specific search results.
I can definitely see the potential confusion with "chai" in another language that uses a cognate for all tea, though! I guess we know the line between chai-words and tea-words (based on land vs sea trade from China historically iirc) is somewhere between Germany and Czechia lol
Yes, that's it, you add whatever unflavored black tea to it. Technically allows you to use high quality fresh tea, though I don't really see a point in this case. It used to be quite popular in...
The blends I saw being sold online were all just spices, but maybe you were supposed to blend them with black tea or smth?
Yes, that's it, you add whatever unflavored black tea to it. Technically allows you to use high quality fresh tea, though I don't really see a point in this case. It used to be quite popular in the kind of tea rooms where very young people go to chill and smoke shisha more than to drink actual high quality teas around 15 - 20 years ago when I visited those places myself, no idea if it still is.
Ah, that makes some sense, if those tea rooms are still around I don't frequent them much, not really my jam. I've been to smoke Shisha once, but I was sold on it because of their milkshakes...
Ah, that makes some sense, if those tea rooms are still around I don't frequent them much, not really my jam. I've been to smoke Shisha once, but I was sold on it because of their milkshakes (which were indeed fantastic). So I didn't check the menu for tea lol
A latte isn’t coffee with milk. That’s just coffee with milk. A latte is a coffee drink made from espresso and steamed milk in a 3:1 ratio. A chai latte would imply the usage of steamed milk. A...
A latte isn’t coffee with milk. That’s just coffee with milk. A latte is a coffee drink made from espresso and steamed milk in a 3:1 ratio. A chai latte would imply the usage of steamed milk.
A latte does not imply the usage of any spices. Pumpkin spice latte has spices because the name has the word “spice” in it. Nor does matcha latte - it’s matcha powder, water, and steamed milk. I’m very confused what kind of drinks you’re getting on the regular.
"Pumpkin spice" is the name of a spice blend. Same way that 'chai' can also refer to a particular spice blend (and yes, in India that blend is masala but in colloquial British English it's not). I...
"Pumpkin spice" is the name of a spice blend. Same way that 'chai' can also refer to a particular spice blend (and yes, in India that blend is masala but in colloquial British English it's not).
I saw a "chai chocolate cake" in a cafe the other day and knew exactly what that meant. The word "spice" in pumpkin spice latte is part of the 'pumpkin spice' descriptor, not the 'latte' one. This is also made clear because 'pumpkin' is not a spice. You're not getting latte spiced with pumpkin (eeuw), you're getting latte with pumpkin spice.
A latte is a coffee drink made from espresso and steamed milk in a 3:1 ratio.
How that is not coffee with milk? Yes it's a particular preparation of coffee with a particular preparation of milk but it's still coffee with milk.
Do please get over yourselves, coffee people. It's all just badly made tea anyway ;-)
Steamed or foamed milk is different in two main ways: one is that it just tastes very different. Second is that it’s mostly air - as such, there’s less actual milk to dilute the coffee with....
Steamed or foamed milk is different in two main ways: one is that it just tastes very different. Second is that it’s mostly air - as such, there’s less actual milk to dilute the coffee with. Moreover, latte in no way implies spices - if you get a matcha latte, and there’s spices, you’re going to the wrong tea shops.
People play fast and loose with terms, but latte implies two things mainly: steamed milk, and roughly the ratio, namely that there’s more milk than the “source” drink. So you’d expect a matcha latte or a chai latte to be concentrated matcha or concentrated chai with more than 50% steamed milk.
I'm not sure how I implied I thought 'latte' included spices. I don't think that. Latte is coffee with milk, and if you want to get pedantic - it's coffee with milk drunk in the morning. An...
I'm not sure how I implied I thought 'latte' included spices. I don't think that. Latte is coffee with milk, and if you want to get pedantic - it's coffee with milk drunk in the morning. An Italian friend of mine was adamant that only children drink milk drinks after lunch.
Anyway, when you add "pumpkin spice" onto the front of 'latte', that is a coffee drink with milk and spices. Therefore it's not necessarily incorrect to interpret "chai latte" as a coffee drink with milk and spices, because 'chai' is commonly used to describe a particular spice mixture, especially in a cafe context. "Matcha" is not a word which is also used to describe a spice mixture - it only refers to powdered Japanese tea - so there's no potential confusion there.
I don't think I'm explaining this very well, and I think your experience of the colloquial use of these words is different from mine and that's not helping either.
The fact I have ordered chai latte and got a spiced coffee drink with milk on more than one occasion is what's important here. I cannot trust the term 'chai latte' because it is ambiguous due to common usage of both words to mean multiple things.
I feel like most menus I see list "chai tea latte" and people just shorten it, if only because plenty of them have multiple options both for tea and for the "iced/hot/blended" etc. I don't really...
I feel like most menus I see list "chai tea latte" and people just shorten it, if only because plenty of them have multiple options both for tea and for the "iced/hot/blended" etc.
I don't really get drinks at Starbs or Dunks though (yes, that's how my coworkers talk about them). But I guess I've never had a concern about getting something other than their blend of chai, like why would I get a coffee or a matcha?
Besides, if you get a "dirty chai" you're adding an espresso shot so now it's a coffee tea milk drink.
You can tell your coworkers that a random internet stranger hates them for that. There is a local coffee roaster near me that sells chai lattes. My order is a dirty-chai latte with oatmilk. And it...
You can tell your coworkers that a random internet stranger hates them for that.
There is a local coffee roaster near me that sells chai lattes.
My order is a dirty-chai latte with oatmilk. And it is heavenly. It's a great thing to drink while staring at the ocean.
I don't love the espresso in my tea. I like espresso drinks (one local shop has a House Cortado that has just a touch of honey and cinnamon to it and it's so good) because I hate myself just...
I don't love the espresso in my tea. I like espresso drinks (one local shop has a House Cortado that has just a touch of honey and cinnamon to it and it's so good) because I hate myself just enough for that (/half joking) but not a dirty chai
Oh, it's delicious - definitely worth checking out. It's one of my go-to winter warmers (my workshop is unheated so I regularly come inside for a hot drink to get the feeling back in my fingers!)....
Oh, it's delicious - definitely worth checking out. It's one of my go-to winter warmers (my workshop is unheated so I regularly come inside for a hot drink to get the feeling back in my fingers!). My preferred recipe is coconut milk with turmeric, a little ginger and a dash or honey or sugar. Works great with oat, rice or even the usually-yuck soy milk. I find cow milk flattens out the spices a bit, non-dairy milks let them shine a little more and help keep the calories under control too.
I'll see what's available around here! I am not allowed (by myself) to purchase more tea for home until I drink what I have, but if I'm out and about ....
I'll see what's available around here! I am not allowed (by myself) to purchase more tea for home until I drink what I have, but if I'm out and about
....
I'd be lying to myself! (Also I'd have to find whole turmeric which would probably require the Indian grocery store which means a much larger shopping trip would occur because snacks) I'm better...
I'd be lying to myself! (Also I'd have to find whole turmeric which would probably require the Indian grocery store which means a much larger shopping trip would occur because snacks)
I'm better off trying it from people that know what they're doing first before ADHD buying everything to make it and not doing that
Haha yeah, I'm probably being a bad influence bc my ADHD brain loves the same sorts of projects. Though whole turmeric is a little easier to come by here.
Haha yeah, I'm probably being a bad influence bc my ADHD brain loves the same sorts of projects. Though whole turmeric is a little easier to come by here.
Honestly I find I prefer the oat milks formulated specifically for coffeeshops even for coffee these days -- they're really well-done texturally and I think the flavor pairs really well with...
Honestly I find I prefer the oat milks formulated specifically for coffeeshops even for coffee these days -- they're really well-done texturally and I think the flavor pairs really well with coffee -- but I think the warm spices of chai especially do work well with the flavor of oat milk.
It’s really just a context thing. Here in India, ‘chai’ is just the default type of tea and then we add modifiers to specify. Like ‘masala chai’ or ‘adrak chai’. In America, ‘chai’ isn’t the...
It’s really just a context thing. Here in India, ‘chai’ is just the default type of tea and then we add modifiers to specify. Like ‘masala chai’ or ‘adrak chai’.
In America, ‘chai’ isn’t the default type of tea so people use ‘chai’ itself as a modifier for ‘tea’, ig.
I don't have anything substantial to add to this conversation, but I just wanted to note that my friend group's favorite local tea spot used to be called Tea Chai Te. Now they go by Portal Tea...
I don't have anything substantial to add to this conversation, but I just wanted to note that my friend group's favorite local tea spot used to be called Tea Chai Te. Now they go by Portal Tea Company, which is way less fun, in my mind.
I think that almost precisely misses the entire point of the video, and I think is an unkind way to interpret how Hank talks about making tea. But generally, tea is made from leaves steeped in...
According to this guy any soup with a broth base is tea.
I think that almost precisely misses the entire point of the video, and I think is an unkind way to interpret how Hank talks about making tea. But generally, tea is made from leaves steeped in water, typically for a relatively brief period, and broth is vegetables boiled in water, typically for a relatively longer period. That's kind of sidestepping the whole point, though, which is that language evolves over time.
It's possible that in the future, we will call all hot beverages made from vegetables tea... or broth. And that won't be wrong. Right now we make a distinction between them, but that's what we're doing right now. And also right now, we know the difference between tea and broth, and it's not very charitable to interpret this as saying that soups are tea, because that's not really what the argument is about at all.
The video is anti-pedantic. The entire point is that people who talk about how "chai tea" is nonsense because the words are repetitive, are being pedantic, and points out where the pedantry stops...
The video is anti-pedantic. The entire point is that people who talk about how "chai tea" is nonsense because the words are repetitive, are being pedantic, and points out where the pedantry stops - people don't get upset about hound dog (dog dog), the LA Angels (the The Angels Angels), the La Brea Tar Pits (the The Tar tar pits). And that the common usage is okay, even though the pedants get up in arms about "chai tea" being "tea tea".
All this started with Starbucks. It was a niche drink that only small coffee shops and Indian restaurants had, then Starbucks started carrying it and put it on the menu as chai tea latte. If I...
All this started with Starbucks. It was a niche drink that only small coffee shops and Indian restaurants had, then Starbucks started carrying it and put it on the menu as chai tea latte. If I ordered a chai they would correct me. Eventually all the other coffee shops changed it on their menus, I presume because of confused customers. The Indian restaurants have held strong, though. Really the primary thing that irritates me is getting “corrected”.
I was reading the misconceptions thread and I was thinking about language use regarding poison and venom, and I was reminded of this video from a couple of days ago about linguistic pedantry, and how English borrows words and not grammar.
Also, Hank says "Coffee is a kind of tea" and it is the most delightfully pedantic thing.
Garlic aioli
While I understand Americans insisting on saying Chai Tea, this discussion misses a major point: Do the Indians objecting the term have lesser rights over the English language than the Americans? I mean just like South African, Nigerian, Trinidadian English, Indian English is a major English dialect by now in 2025. So it is perfectly valid for Subcontinent folks to reject the term used by American English dialect speakers, right?
P.S Technically Chai Tea is also wrong because they’re the names of the same herb in the original language. Like “Meat Steak” or “Mobile Cellphone”
https://thelanguagenerds.com/2019/tea-if-by-sea-cha-if-by-land/
I have never heard an Indian person object to the term "Chai Tea", nor are any of the example in the video people that seem to be of Indian descent. It's notable that half of my family is a huge Indian family, all of whom use the term "Chai Tea". Also, I don't think Hank is advocating for going to India and then saying "It's okay for me to say chai tea!" When you go there, just say "chai".
I think that your PS also misses one of the points - chai tea isn't "wrong because they're names of the same herb". Chai tea is distinct from other types of tea, and Hank points out that the usage of chai in North America matches up with what you would get if you order chai in India.
Saying chai tea here is no more wrong than saying English chai in India. It's perfectly understandable.
Yeah I feel like the chai tea thing was basically a stand-up comedy bit that metastasized and got out of hand. Indians treat it as a funny language quirk and make fun of it, but people getting angry about it are being performative.
In North India yes, but in South India we say “tea” and it’s generally served the same as chai unless you specify a different method of preparation. There’s actually a fun map of the words for tea across various languages. Basically if you first encountered the beverage by a maritime trade-route the word will be derived from a Southern Chinese language and result in some variation of “te.” If you first got it via an overland trade-route then you end up with a word derived from a Northern Chinese language and end up with a variation of “cha.”
But of course, in India we also have different kinds of chai/tea that all gets rolled up into whatever the weird syrupy concoction Starbucks serves here. There’s Kashmiri pink chai, adrak chai, elaichi chai. . . it’s really a whole subclass of beverages rather than just one. And what is usually served as a chai latte in the US isn’t the method of preparation in India. There we actually brew the tea, add spices, and then mix with milk and boil. Here you pour a boxed syrup in a cup and add steamed milk.
Hank is wrong about “naan bread” though. There’s no need to specify form of bread and there is no context where you might ask for “naan” and have someone accidentally bring you a sourdough loaf. And we don’t really do this with any other form of bread. Sourdough, lavash, baguette, ciabatta, etc. we usually just say the thing. The only exception I can think of is pita where people still say “pita bread.” It seems to be a thing people feel like doing when they’re dealing with “ethnic” stuff. Or maybe it’s a syllable count thing where people are just uncomfortable borrowing single-syllable words and feel the need to gussy them up somehow. But then again, nobody says “roti bread” or “kulcha bread” either.
I've commonly heard Sourdough bread or sourdough buns (heck, you used the term "sourdough loaf"), lavash bread, ciabatta bun or ciabatta bread, so it's almost certainly regional.
And I don't think Hank is wrong about naan. The point is that it is a loaner word from another language, and loaner words are sometimes paired with a word for which they are the translation. We say naan bread because that's now a specific thing in the specific dialect of english that we use in this part of the world. It is literally exactly the same as the examples - naan bread, chai tea, hound dog. We (and I use the "we" very loosely) straight up stole the word from another language, and we turned it into a term in ours, and we're not saying it to make sure we don't get sourdough, we're saying it because we compartmentalize it as bread, and saying "type of bread" + "bread" is a thing that we do in this dialect.
When people say “bun” or “loaf” they’re usually referring to the form the bread takes, not to class it as bread at all. It’s more like the difference between saying “oak table” and “oak wood table.”
Regardless, people here commonly say sourdough bread, lavash bread, etc. That's not about form and when I typed "lavash" into google, it wanted to autocomplete "lavash bread" for me.
It's just a thing that this dialect of English does. And I recognize that it likely doesn't where you are. But that doesn't make the video wrong, it's just the whole point of the video.
I didn’t say he was wrong as in “it’s not a thing English speakers do.” I meant he was wrong as in “you sound stupid when you do this.” Yeah it’s subjective, but it’s the case.
Well, to be honest, I think that linguistic prescriptivists sound pretty stupid, but here we are. Judging someone for speaking their dialect the way that they learnt it seems like a pretty bad call, with things rooted in a lot of bad -isms.
I’m not prescribing anything. People are free to choose to sound stupid.
That's actually just linguistic prescriptivism; the idea that there are correct and incorrect ways to use a language, and that certain usage patterns should be preferred over others If you think that someone sounds stupid because they use the language differently from you, then you are a linguistic prescriptivist.
Yeah well that’s just like your opinion. Why are you prescribing to me what words mean or how they should be understood?
Ah hoisted by my own petard.
I misquoted you to say that "hoist" is the past tense of "hoise" already.
I figured weighing in with a pedantic correction would be h i l a r i o u s to do here, and if you disagree you're a big meanie. ;-)
"Hoist" is not the past tense of "hoise," but merely an alteration of the Middle English verb "hoise." Its present tense is still "hoist." That said, the past participle of "hoist" is (or at least was) "hoist," and that is what was being used in the famous Hamlet quote, so you're not really wrong there.
Fun fact -- probably also where we got the word "heist"!
My pride suffered heist by my own blowhard opinions and attempts to be pedantic. ;-)
Hoisterated by my own partard again!
Seems like a distinction without a difference to me.
The bread thing is a weird to me because, at least locally, EVERYONE says "sourdough bread" or "French bread", "wholegrain bread", etc. Conversely, I usually only hear people say "naan", not "naan bread". I don't know if it is because naan isn't like a traditional loaf of bread and is more like a pita or wrap, but I just think it is an interesting observation. It is likely highly regional.
A lot of that is because those descriptors mean something totally different if you don’t specify what you’re talking about. Without the “bread” French is a language, wholegrain is a pile of unprocessed cereals, and sourdough is a fermented dough. But without the bread “naan” is. . .naan.
I've heard "ciabatta bread" before fwiw. I think the usage isn't super consistent though.
Where in South India do they say Tea? I’ve lived in South India and it was just Chaa e.g. “Anna, Oru Chaa kudinge” in Madurai or Palakkad.
Also I don’t think anyone’s being angry, we’re just having a bit fun because it’s in the title 😜
In Telugu and Kannada I’ve mostly heard “tea.” “Chai” is also said but I feel it’s more of a Hindi loan. There’s been a lot of creolization with Hindi and English over the past decade I think.
Interesting I’ve not heard Kannadigas say Tea, it was always Chaha. E.g. svalpa chaha kodi. same in Maharashtra.
It could just be because my family speaks a pidgin version of Kannada that’s mixed up with a lot of Telugu. And there is also the time-capsule effect of being abroad since I was a kid.
Most of the time it never gets brought up and I rarely drink chia tea. I had one Indian co-worker that was just bothered in general about it saying its one of those things he hates about how we speak here. I kept correcting him to "chia tea" and by the end of the day he was accidentally saying "chia tea" at which point I would say SEE! MUAHAHAHA! He was kind of into languages in general though so I can see why he in particular was irritated by it.
I think most people probably just accept "chia tea" as how we say it over here and there are only a few people that get bothered and say something.
It is ironic you spelled "chai" as "chia" throughout given the topic. (Unless that was the joke in which case Whoosh)
No... I just fail at spelling apparently.
I assumed it was autocorrect if not intentional, but I've felt that frustration
Its dumber than that. I actually spelled it correctly but chai left me with the red line underneath so I just assumed that my phone was right. Also I forgot that chia seeds were a thing.
Thank you for writing this comment, you’re helping me make my point how the ghost of post colonialism isn’t dead yet.
Sir this is the Internet. Do you mean to say only Americans have rights over naming things here?I mean they don’t even have a Tea culture there like say Tajikistan or Taiwan.
Regarding my PS about Chai vs Tea: It is called Chai be half of the world, not just India. Rest call it Tea. Each of these cultures know the other word for Tea/Chá based on my extensive travels.
Bhai sahab I’m Indian and it’s a running joke in India, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I think that your comments are very uncharitable and also unkind ways of interpreting what I am writing and what the video is saying.
No, that is not what I, nor the video, is saying. There is no claim being made in the video that the only correct way to say it on the internet is "Chai Tea" and the people who are complaining are wrooong.
The video is saying that in North America, it's valid to call it chai tea. There is no claim that we should be correcting people who just say "chai" or that other locations do not have the right to call chai whatever they want to call it. There's no post colonialism; just linguistic descriptivism.
And to go back to fix something in a previous comment:
That's on me, I should have been more specific. However, my point stands - Indian people here don't all cringe when someone white says chai tea, and in fact it is relatively common usage.
I think that linguistic post colonialism would require some kind of linguistic prescriptivism - some level of "you should say this, because this is the right thing and not the other thing, because that is the wrong thing". But this is just linguistic descriptivism - looking at the usage and explaining it.
The point I was trying to make is that pedantically and in bad spirit telling a North American person that they're wrong for saying "chai tea" is exactly the same as someone going to India and pedantically and in bad spirit telling someone there that they're wrong for saying "chai". It's not what is advocated for in the video. There are comments in the vein of enlightenment that he explicitly calls out as acceptable.
The people commenting on Hanks video were posting on the general internet, and last time I checked, Internet belongs to everyone not just USAmericans.
The fact that you’re assuming that it’s “North America” by default is exactly what I was trying to highlight. Adding NA it later is shifting goalposts in my opinion. I suspect countries Mexico and its South don’t feature in this definition of North America, but that’s besides the point.
Just like people are free to call it Chai tea latte or whatever, people are also free to ridicule and laugh at them. We can’t stop anyone on the internet 🙂
My man: Hank is in North America. He's talking about his usage, because the way he is using it is valid. It would be wrong for him to say "hey, everyone in India isn't saying chai tea and they're wrong, because the proper way is to say chai tea." But that's not what is happening.
Sorry, I envision a life where people who are assholes get called out. And laughing at people for using their language properly is wrong.
And now you're picking at "North America" too. PLEASE read this: The Principle of Charity and try to understand it.
You're the one who is constantly moving goalposts and bringing up things that are not in any way inferred or implied by the video.
Since "the internet belongs to everyone and not just USAmericans", then I would argue that it's a place to be welcoming of how people use language, and not disparaging. It would be wrong of me to correct any usages that you have that aren't how we use things in North America (and I'm saying North America because I'm Canadian). And it's wrong of you to correct us for our usages. We are using different dialects of the language, and our dialect is fine, just like your dialect is fine. You keep coming back to this "who is allowed to have rights on the English language" and the answer is "all the english speakers".
You are effectively saying that your dialect of English is the right one, and ours is the wrong one, while simultaneously complaining that people in North America say that they're right and you're wrong. Well, everyone who says that their dialect is right and other dialects are wrong is wrong.
This video is about how linguistic prescriptivists - ie. people who think that there are rules about how a language must be written or spoken, or otherwise you are incorrect - are silly. And you are being silly by being a linguistic prescriptivist.
I think we got into a contrarian loop here so let me try and break out of it peacefully.
I understand your point: Hank can use Chai Tea latte, Touché, Naan Bread etc because it might make sense in his location. No disagreement here.
I hope you understand my point: On the internet it is wrong to assume everyone is from the USA. More countries speak English and only US norms don’t apply.
My point about ridicule was about current state of internet in general. People are assholes on the internet these days. It’s a cesspit of negativity out there. I hope we can close the case now.
I think the issue to me is that you brought up something that's not really anything to do with the video, and then argued about it in the context of the video?
I'm certainly not assuming that everyone on the internet is from the USA - I'm not from the USA. But nothing about the video was about that? You just introduced it as a side quest.
And yes, people are assholes on the internet. I'll call them on it forever.
The way I saw it: Hank, an American says people are commenting on the internet that it’s not “Chai Tea” and he dismissed it.
This to me felt like “defaulting to American” which is what my main point was. It was completely relevant to the discussion. It might have stemmed from the blatant racism I’ve seen against Indians in the recent past.
Then you went ahead and qualified it extra by adding “in North America”. Obviously I read that as you doubling down on that. Did I go overboard, maybe, but that’s what we are doing here, right (nitpicking)
So here we are now: I understand your POV and I just explained mine. Feel free to agree or disagree. These are just opinions after all, not laws of Cricket.
From the bottom of my heart and with all the positive sincerity I have, I deeply apologize for raising any feelings of racism against Indians. It was not my intent, but intents and actions can be miles apart from each other, and I am sorry for any action that I took or anything that I said that made you feel like there was a racial element to what I was saying.
I also want to say that I fully understand that aggravation with "defaulting to American" on the internet, and it is a problem. I apologize that I didn't understand the issue that you were bringing up earlier. I want to be very clear that Indians having a laugh about Americans saying "Chai Tea" (or "naan bread" or any other clunky linguistic things) is totally acceptable! There are loads of linguistic peculiarities in every dialect of English. To explain a bit about where I'm coming from, I think that those differences in dialects are delightful and should be thoroughly celebrated in a positive way. I love the different flavours that people impart to language, whether its based on ethnicity, location, or other things.
I only added the "in North America" because I think it's important context, and I was trying to say that my experience with my family being in North America is certainly different from yours, especially if you are in India. I was also trying to explain that I was not trying to speak for any people in India; I've never been to India, and was trying to note that my experiences here cannot be the same as your experiences there. I was explicitly trying not to claim to be speaking for you, but only to you.
But I sometimes get carried away and then speak at people which is what I was doing here. So I apologize for that as well.
Oh dear, now I feel sorry for making you feel that way. It’s my turn to apologise and I’m sorry for the terse comments. Please, there’s no need to apologise, you did nothing wrong. You were absolutely courteous and I didn’t see an ounce of racism. The fact that you wrote this comment shows that you’ve got a golden heart.
All this while I thought we are just having a Chautaqua or agora style friendly banter and testing each other’s defences. I hang out around Talebian communities and live in Germany, so perhaps my communication style is a bit direct.
Let’s end this on a positive note and learn from this experience. Live long and prosper 🖖
Not the least I have gotten out of this is learning that there is a Vulcan salute emoji.
No need to feel sorry! Race is one of those issues where I try to tread carefully and be explicitly on the anti-racist side, and anti-Indian (or anti-brown-person in general) racism is something that I see with alarming regularity, even in Canada, and try to always stand up and speak out against, but I also recognize that I'm a latecomer to the issue, having married into my brown family, so sometimes I don't see things that have racial implications as having racial implications. So thanks for pointing it out to me, and again I am sorry for not seeing that part of it. I see now that it is obviously what you were saying and talking about, but I just didn't get it.
I appreciate the directness, I tend to meander. May you also live long and prosper!
Or Sahara Desert. I don't think anyone is obligated to use the term "chai tea" it's just that it's sensical in American English, but I'm sure Indian English(s) are as different from American English(s) as British English is at least.
It's perfectly valid for them to reject using it in their speaker communities. It is not valid for them to insist that any other speaker community conform their language to their arbitrary standard. Multiple dialects can exist using words in different ways, even if something would be "wrong" in one dialect it can be correct in another. While currently Indian English speakers don't have the structural power to enforce their language opinions on American English speakers anyway, we have no shortage of examples of languages and dialects being oppressed and stigmatized for not conforming to the "right" way of speaking their language -- and this is a bad thing. It's also a bad thing that has generally impacted Indian English and dialects like it more negatively than positively. For every "chai tea" there's plenty of "do one thing," ending sentences with "only," "passing out" from university, and many more uniquely Indian English expressions that would be considered "wrong" in standard English as spoken in England or the US. But in all these cases, that doesn't mean it's wrong. Systems that prescribe one "correct" way to speak English tend to come down on minority dialects like Indian English and unfairly try to stifle language change for arbitrary reasons. Just because two dialects do things differently doesn't mean one of them has to be wrong. It's natural and nigh-universal for loanwords to develop a different range of meanings in the language that borrowed them compared to their source language, just as it's common for dialects spoken by populations living far apart to develop different, incompatible grammar and vocabulary.
Is this claim really being made by these non-Ami communities? I've not seen it anywhere so far.
They're rightfully rejecting it and ridiculing it on the internet which belongs to everyone. Just like Americans took the English language and ran with it, Indians (and others) are doing it now. After all languages evolve and flow like a river. Linguists only study them post-hoc.
I think it's also important to remember while this is true, England itself also evolved and ran with their own language. Some Americanisms are Americanisms, but some differences are actually where England changed English, and some of the American differences are the original, not the evolutions.
The biggest one is probably received pronunciation, i.e. the dropping of r's in many places.
But also notably, what we think of as an "Irish" accent is close to how they spoke in London for a while centuries ago. London evolved, Ireland evolved less (and differently). But listening to videos of people recreating those dialects and accents going back in time, it's wild to hear just how much things shifted.
Actually, let me see if I can find one. Well, Simon Roper is the guy I was thinking of, although this isn't theone I was thinking of that really shows of the Irish period, but it is another one that I found fascinating when I found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXv3Tt4x20&ab_channel=SimonRoper — the premise is basically through the centuries, as if an older family member was recording or being recorded as they reminisced about their life - growing up in like the family house - someone recording it for posterity sort of thing. I think it's fascinating, and a lot of Simon's work is really amazing.
Yes, people have been running away with languages since ages. Since this is
~humanities.languages, I can safely add my experience in other languages I speak. E.g. Althochdeutsch or SennTamil from ancient times is highly unintelligible for me.However there is one notable exception to this trend of free language evolution: Sanskrit. You can easily read Sanskrit from Ashtadhyayi from 6th BCE the same way as Sadratnamala from 18th CE. But I'm digressing, Indian linguistics is a whole different ball game than English.
I agree, languages evolve and move like a river! Using phrases like "chai tea" differently is just one tiny drop in that river. Indian English speakers are free to laugh, but that doesn't make the way Americans use the term "wrong" any more than the expressions in Indian English are wrong. They're just different.
Agreed. Only time will if this term stays around or not.
It was nice to nitpick this with y'all, feels like the olden days of the internet.
Maybe we should start a gif pronunciation thread to really bring back the nostalgia lol!
Everyone knows it's pronounced as GIF.
Fucking hell, that is a debate I am so so so very over. lol
Having a laugh at the expense of people who use the term will have a direct impact on whether it stays or not as well though.
I'm not particularly convinced it will in this case, but it could in situations where the people laughing have power over the people using the construction. I think "chai tea" is pretty well-entrenched in English outside India and is unlikely to change based on this, though.
I'm going to throw this down: Americans need to get used to having less claim on the English language than the combined masses of up and coming speakers across Asia and Africa. India alone has almost 230 million English speakers, which is getting close to the size of the US population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
Also "bento box" annoys me. A lot of Japanese words get that treatment.
The phenomenon that produced "bento box" and "chai tea" is wildly common throughout any language that borrows dishes and vocabulary. The only reason English (and specifically American English) loans from other languages get this treatment is because more people are aware of them. Japanese has an absolute shitton of English loans that don't match what the words mean in English either.
They can and they absolutely should but the same works in reverse.
"Chai tea" is fine. I don't see it often but whatever. Maybe it's tautologous but that's OK. I mostly only ever see people use "chai" on it's own to refer to Indian-style spiced black tea with milk.
But chai latte can get in the sea. Latte is a coffee-based drink and chai is a tea-based drink and both words are also used to mean "spiced with cardamom/etc" and "with milk" respectively. So how the merry fuck am I supposed to know what chai latte is?
Is it, like pumpkin spice latte, a coffee drink with spices and milk?
Or is it, like matcha latte, a tea drink with spices and milk?
I have ordered chai latte and got a vile coffee drink on several occasions. I can't stand coffee at the best of times but with chai spices it's somehow even worse.
This is admittedly somewhat off topic but I'm mad about it.
I understand your passion about it, but... it's honestly pretty understandable? A latte is a strong coffee with foamed milk. A chai latte is a chai with foamed milk. Do you really not understand, or are you being comedic?
I do not drink coffee or tea, but I always assumed a chai latte would be a coffee flavoured with spices, tbh. I don't think the name is obvious.
That said, I find none of the names for coffees and few of the names for teas obvious. It was only last year that I found out that pumpkin latte has nothing to do with pumpkins (other than the season). So maybe there's an extra coffee language that you need to learn and it all makes sense? Is there a Duolingo course for coffee drinking?
Whoever told you it was called it that was wrong. It's normally called a "pumpkin spice latte" because it's made with the spices you'd put in pumpkin pie.
That's a fair point - if one is not familiar with coffee or tea, then this is likely not obvious.
There is a whole other set of jargon related to coffee. Mostly a chart like this one would be sufficient, but even more basically, most of the terms are for some amount of espresso, some amount of hot water, some amount of milk, some amount of froth. In this specific instance, "cafe latte" means "coffee with milk" and is usually given with steamed milk with quite a bit of froth. If one had that knowledge, and also knew that Chai was - in western countries, anyways - tea prepared in a particular way, then the jump to chai latte seems pretty straightforward.
Strictly speaking I think most of the non-obvious coffee terms come from Italian. Certainly speaking Italian would make the meaning of "latte" clearer, as it's the Italian word for "milk". But for more specifics, such as the difference between a latte and a cappuccino despite them both being espresso with steamed milk, you're probably better off just asking a barista or looking at an infographic online. Some coffee shops will have a poster or something up in the shop itself, but generally speaking people who drink coffee will learn one or two common drinks where they live and people who work in coffee or are otherwise aficionados will learn more.
This is confused a bit by Starbucks using common coffee drink names and serving very different drinks with those names sometimes. Local shops will either mimic this or (IME) clarify with you exactly what a macchiato is. (If they're nice). So sometimes you need to double check.
I wouldn't consider a macchiato a common coffee drink in the US anyway, but yeah things like that can be confused by both your region and the influence of big chains like Starbucks. Here in Germany they differentiate latte macchiato and cafe macchiato as well as having a separate Milchkaffee that's very similar to a latte macchiato (both are more or less what you'd call a latte in the US).
It's not uncommon to order them at starbucks, especially iced, and they were really popular for a while. It was just the first example of a drastic difference. I'm never sure I've tracked the difference in some of the finicky espresso + milk options correctly.
I order a cortado at one local shop though when I'm feeling slightly self loathing (a running espresso joke for me) and a seasonal latte or apple chaider (half hot (soft)cider, half chai tea, no latte) from the other but don't drink Starbucks or Dunkin unless it's free, and even then....
So I'm not necessarily representative of typical American coffee culture. (We did just have a Scooters open up on my way to work with a drive thru so I'll have to try them out)
Edit: hit rate limit so
My point was that people go somewhere else and try to order a Starbucks macchiato (or whatever their Starbucks order is), not that they particularly like the actual thing they're ordering if that makes sense? I don't think they're popular at other shops other than that misunderstanding leading to ordering the wrong drink. @sparksbet
Yeah I know they're popular at Starbucks specifically (they especially were when I was a teen), but since at Starbucks they're just a latte where you don't mix it to have the aesthetic layers, I don't think they're very common anywhere else. Latte macchiatos here are just what they'd call a latte in the US, but served in a glass rather than a mug lol.
Honestly I do like a good cortado though.
This just had me look up what a macchiato is at starbucks and I am... shocked. Disgusted? I opened this link and now I'm mad.
Being read awkwardly at a podium, from my notes app
I once again apologize for the indignities America has imposed on foodways outside of our own traditions. This is not, as far as I know, an instance of immigrants adapting their own food/beverage traditions, simply a desire to make more money. There is not really even a good excuse for this one.
Thank you, and terribly sorry.
Awkwardly stands at podium too long
I'm pretty sure one cafe near me actually puts pumpkin in theirs and its amazing. Just to make things extra confusing.
Their pumkin spice frap/iced drink is like drinking a pumpkin pie with some coffee mixed in. 10/10
Adding pumpkin to a pumpkin spice latte is completely unnecessary and does nothing to actually improve the taste of the drink. Pumpkin doesn't have much flavor to bring to the table and would at best add color and texture. The PSL at Starbucks got MUCH worse when they added pumpkin to it (presumably because of ignorant people whining about it not having any) and I don't even buy it anymore -- other places sometimes follow suit because this has set the (stupid) expectation that pumpkin spice lattes should contain pumpkin. I think any good pumpkin spice latte that includes real pumpkin is good for reasons more or less wholly unrelated to the inclusion of actual pumpkin -- it's the quality and choice of spices that matters.
Chai is a spiced milk tea, but the word also refers to the spice mixture (eg, chai cheesecake). Latte is a specific type of milky coffee, but the word is also used to mean 'drink with milk' (eg matcha latte). Although thinking about it, I've had hot chocolate made with steamed milk and that's never been sold as chocolate latte... So that usage is inconsistent. I know there's a different word for the coffee and chocolate drink but it currently eludes me. Not a coffee person.
The point is that it's not possible to know a priori how whoever wrote the menu you're looking at is using those words. There's no reason that a chai latte has to be tea, it could be a chai spiced coffee, like the example I gave of pumpkin spice latte, another "named spice mix + latte" construction.
This would not be a problem if I had not ordered chai latte several times in my life and been given a coffee drink made with milk and spices. Which, from the common usage of the words used to describe it in British English, I believe to be a legitimate description. That's never happened with matcha latte so I'm not mad about that.
I'm not really that passionate about it. :)
Fair point, I'm not trying to call out your lived experience. I am astonished that a coffee shop would serve a chai coffee latte without spelling that out explicitly as a dirty chai latte, and I would probably never return to that shop (as a coffee person), or I would be asking explicit questions every time I ordered.
Actually, this whole sidebar has gotten me to appreciate the local places I attend, which all have explanations of each of the drinks written out explaining what they are. And have given me even more of a disappreciation for Starbucks.
Latte is just short for "cafe latte" the way "chai latte" is short for "chai tea latte"
I cannot explain coffee shops that would give a chai cafe latte though without that being obvious somehow. But at least I think it'd taste good
Chai spiced coffee is pretty disgusting but then I don't like coffee except as a cake flavour. I know coffee people like cardamom in coffee so I imagine if you like that then chai coffee would be pretty good.
If it had only happened to me once I'd write it off as a mistake by the cafe staff, but it's happened multiple times in different places.
May be a local or regional difference. Or they just really think you need coffee. It's less about taste and more that it's odd
A chai-spiced coffee would probably be very similar to a pumpkin spice latte (at least at the places that haven't started pointlessly adding actual pumpkin to a drink that never needed it) -- the spice blends are very similar. Most coffee places that have a chai latte will also serve you a "dirty chai" if you order it, which is a chai latte with a shot of espresso.
Sure I'm not saying it would taste bad - though I mentioned elsewhere I don't like a dirty chai - just that it's not intuitive since in my experience menus specify "cafe latte" and "chai tea latte" or the "chai" is an option under "tea latte" or something
I don't like most pumpkin spice coffee blends but I have had a chai that tasted like the way pumpkin pie spice smells in the best way. Idk why they're not all that good.
I suppose it depends a lot on the specific spice blend as well as how fresh the spices are.
I mean I'm being optimistic about "spice blend" for Pumpkin spice here, it's usually a flavoring syrup
Syrups are the better choice for these drinks usually anyway, since you don't get the clumps you'd get actually adding the spices. Nice bougie cafes might make their own syrups with spices themselves rather than just ordering it from a big brand, though.
Oh for sure they might, I just don't order PSLs anymore so I wouldn't know
Chai is not spiced milk tea, the drink you're talking about is called masala chai. Chay/Chai/Chá is the standard word for tea in various cultures apart from India. E.g. It is called Jogi Tea in Germany, and other cultures definitely has different names to it like Thé Mélange
But I agree with your general point: Chai latte should get you Tea in latte style.
Sorry if this sounds like nitpick: I'm really passionate about Chai and have it many times a day :-)
You are correct but in colloquial British English if you ask for chai, you'll get masala chai. Unless it's specified as ghur chai or adraki chai or whatever. One of my local cafes has a chai menu and it makes me very happy. It's nice to see more types of tea than coffee on a board for a change..
I believe this entire thread is about nitpicking :)
I actually thought the thread would be about how nitpicking things like this are futile, and how linguistic prescriptivists are a silly lot... but here we are, it is about nitpicking.
I think you probably missed a lot of previous threads in which the prescriptivists came out in full force lol. There are descriptivists on Tildes, but I suspect we're a minority, at least among those who leave comments. And of course there are plenty of people who are almost descriptivists... until it comes to their particular pet peeves!
Linguistic Prescriptivists make terrible zoologists on the off chance you haven't seen it.
That was great, and also pretty much how I imagine Europeans up on encountering Australia as just one example.
hahaha I love it, thanks for the link.
Ooooooof, that is 100% me. On Accident is the one that pierces my brain. I try to let it slide though.
For me it's needs washed but given I have family in Scotland it's a construction I encounter quite often.
Although, just to nitpick for a moment, I'm not really of the opinion that I get to proscribe how people use the words 'chai' and 'latte', I just find it annoying when meaning gets confused due to usage shifting. I think that's subtly different from outright prescriptivism - which in the context of linguistics is of course nonsense.
If I were to have the experience you described above in a coffee shop, I would be miffed. Heck, I looked at a Starbucks menu and that was enough to thoroughly annoy me.
I think that there's definitely room in linguistic descriptivism for annoyance at just calling something the wrong thing. If I had a picture of a tiger, and it was labelled "dog", I wouldn't be a prescriptivist if I said it was wrong, and similarly, you're not wrong for saying that what you got isn't a chai latte, or that there's often confusion in what a chai latte even is.
Afaik Jogi-Tee typically refers to tea made just from the blend of spices that doesn't contain any of the tea plant. Germans widely use "chai" and "chai latte" the same way as in English (albeit pronounced more German-ly).
Next door, in Czechia, Jogi tea is equivalent to masala and contains actual tea, so even this is not something you can rely on, lol. And to make matters worse we call all tea "čaj", but at the same time some cafes started offering drinks like chai latte, written like this and with the same meaning as in english, so chai and čaj sound the same but sometimes mean two different things.
I've never actually encountered Jogi-Tee here in Germany, only chai lattes (both at the grocery store and in cafes), but I was able to find references to it online so it's a thing somewhere ig. The only clarity the references gave was that it's considered a hippe-dippy natural thing, but I live in Berlin and have never encountered it despite seeing plenty of that stuff. Granted, I'm more in the coffee scene than the natural medicine scene, so maybe that's where I'd find it. The blends I saw being sold online were all just spices, but maybe you were supposed to blend them with black tea or smth? idk. Further complicating matters was the fact that there's an American tea brand called Yogi Tea sold here, which dominates even the German-specific search results.
I can definitely see the potential confusion with "chai" in another language that uses a cognate for all tea, though! I guess we know the line between chai-words and tea-words (based on land vs sea trade from China historically iirc) is somewhere between Germany and Czechia lol
Yes, that's it, you add whatever unflavored black tea to it. Technically allows you to use high quality fresh tea, though I don't really see a point in this case. It used to be quite popular in the kind of tea rooms where very young people go to chill and smoke shisha more than to drink actual high quality teas around 15 - 20 years ago when I visited those places myself, no idea if it still is.
Ah, that makes some sense, if those tea rooms are still around I don't frequent them much, not really my jam. I've been to smoke Shisha once, but I was sold on it because of their milkshakes (which were indeed fantastic). So I didn't check the menu for tea lol
A latte isn’t coffee with milk. That’s just coffee with milk. A latte is a coffee drink made from espresso and steamed milk in a 3:1 ratio. A chai latte would imply the usage of steamed milk.
A latte does not imply the usage of any spices. Pumpkin spice latte has spices because the name has the word “spice” in it. Nor does matcha latte - it’s matcha powder, water, and steamed milk. I’m very confused what kind of drinks you’re getting on the regular.
"Pumpkin spice" is the name of a spice blend. Same way that 'chai' can also refer to a particular spice blend (and yes, in India that blend is masala but in colloquial British English it's not).
I saw a "chai chocolate cake" in a cafe the other day and knew exactly what that meant. The word "spice" in pumpkin spice latte is part of the 'pumpkin spice' descriptor, not the 'latte' one. This is also made clear because 'pumpkin' is not a spice. You're not getting latte spiced with pumpkin (eeuw), you're getting latte with pumpkin spice.
How that is not coffee with milk? Yes it's a particular preparation of coffee with a particular preparation of milk but it's still coffee with milk.
Do please get over yourselves, coffee people. It's all just badly made tea anyway ;-)
Steamed or foamed milk is different in two main ways: one is that it just tastes very different. Second is that it’s mostly air - as such, there’s less actual milk to dilute the coffee with. Moreover, latte in no way implies spices - if you get a matcha latte, and there’s spices, you’re going to the wrong tea shops.
People play fast and loose with terms, but latte implies two things mainly: steamed milk, and roughly the ratio, namely that there’s more milk than the “source” drink. So you’d expect a matcha latte or a chai latte to be concentrated matcha or concentrated chai with more than 50% steamed milk.
I'm not sure how I implied I thought 'latte' included spices. I don't think that. Latte is coffee with milk, and if you want to get pedantic - it's coffee with milk drunk in the morning. An Italian friend of mine was adamant that only children drink milk drinks after lunch.
Anyway, when you add "pumpkin spice" onto the front of 'latte', that is a coffee drink with milk and spices. Therefore it's not necessarily incorrect to interpret "chai latte" as a coffee drink with milk and spices, because 'chai' is commonly used to describe a particular spice mixture, especially in a cafe context. "Matcha" is not a word which is also used to describe a spice mixture - it only refers to powdered Japanese tea - so there's no potential confusion there.
I don't think I'm explaining this very well, and I think your experience of the colloquial use of these words is different from mine and that's not helping either.
The fact I have ordered chai latte and got a spiced coffee drink with milk on more than one occasion is what's important here. I cannot trust the term 'chai latte' because it is ambiguous due to common usage of both words to mean multiple things.
This in Italy is more often a cappuccino than a latte anyway ;)
I feel like most menus I see list "chai tea latte" and people just shorten it, if only because plenty of them have multiple options both for tea and for the "iced/hot/blended" etc.
I don't really get drinks at Starbs or Dunks though (yes, that's how my coworkers talk about them). But I guess I've never had a concern about getting something other than their blend of chai, like why would I get a coffee or a matcha?
Besides, if you get a "dirty chai" you're adding an espresso shot so now it's a coffee tea milk drink.
You can tell your coworkers that a random internet stranger hates them for that.
There is a local coffee roaster near me that sells chai lattes.
My order is a dirty-chai latte with oatmilk. And it is heavenly. It's a great thing to drink while staring at the ocean.
I don't love the espresso in my tea. I like espresso drinks (one local shop has a House Cortado that has just a touch of honey and cinnamon to it and it's so good) because I hate myself just enough for that (/half joking) but not a dirty chai
That's fair. Oatmilk chais are still baller tho. One of the few times I unequivocally think Oatmilk is better than dairy.
Definitely agree on this. Coconut milk also rocks in chai and even more so in golden (turmeric) milk/tea.
I do need to try golden milk tea. I haven't had the opportunity. Its now 5 am and I want to drink Thai iced tea so idk what I'm gonna do today.
Oh, it's delicious - definitely worth checking out. It's one of my go-to winter warmers (my workshop is unheated so I regularly come inside for a hot drink to get the feeling back in my fingers!). My preferred recipe is coconut milk with turmeric, a little ginger and a dash or honey or sugar. Works great with oat, rice or even the usually-yuck soy milk. I find cow milk flattens out the spices a bit, non-dairy milks let them shine a little more and help keep the calories under control too.
I'll see what's available around here! I am not allowed (by myself) to purchase more tea for home until I drink what I have, but if I'm out and about
....
Luckily both turmeric and ginger are roots you can buy whole and justify as being for cooking, not tea 😏
I'd be lying to myself! (Also I'd have to find whole turmeric which would probably require the Indian grocery store which means a much larger shopping trip would occur because snacks)
I'm better off trying it from people that know what they're doing first before ADHD buying everything to make it and not doing that
Haha yeah, I'm probably being a bad influence bc my ADHD brain loves the same sorts of projects. Though whole turmeric is a little easier to come by here.
Once my college roommate brewed thai tea at home and it was phenomenal. I gotta do it myself sometime. Love that stuff.
I used to have some but I think it was lost in the move. I don't have any appropriate dairy in the house though
Ah, understandable. Without the milk, thai tea ends up looking a little too much like period blood for my taste lol
Well now that is in my head
Honestly I find I prefer the oat milks formulated specifically for coffeeshops even for coffee these days -- they're really well-done texturally and I think the flavor pairs really well with coffee -- but I think the warm spices of chai especially do work well with the flavor of oat milk.
It's less ideal for me due to being grain, but usually I don't want to be a fuss so I just suffer the dairy side effects. I enjoy them fine though
It’s really just a context thing. Here in India, ‘chai’ is just the default type of tea and then we add modifiers to specify. Like ‘masala chai’ or ‘adrak chai’.
In America, ‘chai’ isn’t the default type of tea so people use ‘chai’ itself as a modifier for ‘tea’, ig.
I don't have anything substantial to add to this conversation, but I just wanted to note that my friend group's favorite local tea spot used to be called Tea Chai Te. Now they go by Portal Tea Company, which is way less fun, in my mind.
I think that almost precisely misses the entire point of the video, and I think is an unkind way to interpret how Hank talks about making tea. But generally, tea is made from leaves steeped in water, typically for a relatively brief period, and broth is vegetables boiled in water, typically for a relatively longer period. That's kind of sidestepping the whole point, though, which is that language evolves over time.
It's possible that in the future, we will call all hot beverages made from vegetables tea... or broth. And that won't be wrong. Right now we make a distinction between them, but that's what we're doing right now. And also right now, we know the difference between tea and broth, and it's not very charitable to interpret this as saying that soups are tea, because that's not really what the argument is about at all.
The video is anti-pedantic. The entire point is that people who talk about how "chai tea" is nonsense because the words are repetitive, are being pedantic, and points out where the pedantry stops - people don't get upset about hound dog (dog dog), the LA Angels (the The Angels Angels), the La Brea Tar Pits (the The Tar tar pits). And that the common usage is okay, even though the pedants get up in arms about "chai tea" being "tea tea".
All this started with Starbucks. It was a niche drink that only small coffee shops and Indian restaurants had, then Starbucks started carrying it and put it on the menu as chai tea latte. If I ordered a chai they would correct me. Eventually all the other coffee shops changed it on their menus, I presume because of confused customers. The Indian restaurants have held strong, though. Really the primary thing that irritates me is getting “corrected”.