That was interesting, but I'm mostly just horrified that students can be held accountable for not reporting on others for cheating. That must create a terrible environment of distrust and is...
That was interesting, but I'm mostly just horrified that students can be held accountable for not reporting on others for cheating. That must create a terrible environment of distrust and is probably a good chunk of why the cheating students were going on snitch hunts. Why wouldn't people snitch, after all? They're being pushed to at gunpoint.
I know my thoughts on this stuff is unconventional (I don't have a problem with plagiarism and see most cheating as just effective communication and resource usage...and no, I didn't cheat to get my degree), but that rule seems extremely poorly thought out.
One thing I remember professors doing in a similar vein was to cast a wide net (a net that they definitely know has significant amount of false positives), and send all of those students what...
One thing I remember professors doing in a similar vein was to cast a wide net (a net that they definitely know has significant amount of false positives), and send all of those students what basically amounts to a plea deal. If you admit to plagiarism in writing, the only penalty will be a 0 on the assignment. If you do not, then it will have to be escalated to a University investigation, and if you are found guilty the course staff will suggest the maximum penalty possible (up to immediate expulsion).
Always felt a little scummy. I'm sure many students did the metal calculus and decided that taking the 0 even though they didn't cheat was worth it over months of arguing against the course staff (equivalent to a lengthy court procedure), probably causing significant amounts of mental anguish, with the looming threat of whatever maximum penalty they can concoct for the case hanging over you.
Old-ish Al Pacino movie Scent of a Woman explores exactly this idea, of forcing students to snitch on each other. Excellent movie with many other interesting themes, as well. Best tango scene, ever.
Old-ish Al Pacino movie Scent of a Woman explores exactly this idea, of forcing students to snitch on each other. Excellent movie with many other interesting themes, as well. Best tango scene, ever.
I see no problem with what you're saying, as long as they aren't directly copying and pasting and are citing their sources. If they are literally copying and pasting, then they aren't learning much...
I see no problem with what you're saying, as long as they aren't directly copying and pasting and are citing their sources. If they are literally copying and pasting, then they aren't learning much...
Well, clearly that policy didn't work in this case because nobody snitched? I also thought it was weird that the students were so worried about snitches but didn't do anything at all to avoid...
Well, clearly that policy didn't work in this case because nobody snitched?
I also thought it was weird that the students were so worried about snitches but didn't do anything at all to avoid getting caught until it was far too late. They acted like they could do what they liked in a chat room with lots of people they didn't know and had no reason to trust.
It seems like they were, if anything, too trusting? They thought they were invulnerable. Maybe an environment of distrust would be an improvement?
I find it a bit hard to believe that they're college students, to be honest. They seem younger?
I can totally understand the urge to cheat, especially on an online class, but honestly I have no sympathy for the majority of this class. Every modern school is set up with a tremendous number of...
I can totally understand the urge to cheat, especially on an online class, but honestly I have no sympathy for the majority of this class. Every modern school is set up with a tremendous number of resources available to students; it’s not uncommon for colleges to have free tutoring for a number of subjects, and many professors are willing to spend extra time with you to help you understand their subjects. It seems to me that most of these students are the worst types; the ones who aren’t interested in learning. They are the types who have the tendency to drag the whole class down with them (see how the professor was considering failing the entire class).
I get that being an online class changes the equation quite a bit (I was doing them before the pandemic and since it started I have only been doing them), but in some ways it kind of makes this mass cheating worse. The most common reason people fail online classes is simply because they do not spend enough time studying, often because they do not do simple things like planning to do so, leading to assignments being either abandoned or half-assed. I suppose the good thing about online classes is that they are less likely to become derailed by people who are very far behind the class.
—-
Coincidentally my last class did something that I think may have been set up as an attempt to stop this particular phenomenon from happening. At the beginning of the class the professor set up a demi-anonymous discord server for the class so they could have the social connection with the explicit knowledge that it was supervised by the professor.
Some people posted some stuff but unfortunately it wasn’t terribly popular. Only maybe a quarter of the class joined.
When I was a student, I have been in situations where a lot of people cheated, and I was harmed for being honest. When enough people cheat for a lot of time, teachers will learn to expect an...
When I was a student, I have been in situations where a lot of people cheated, and I was harmed for being honest. When enough people cheat for a lot of time, teachers will learn to expect an unrealistic performance and being honest can actually harm you.
For context, this was decades ago and not in the US.
That was interesting, but I'm mostly just horrified that students can be held accountable for not reporting on others for cheating. That must create a terrible environment of distrust and is probably a good chunk of why the cheating students were going on snitch hunts. Why wouldn't people snitch, after all? They're being pushed to at gunpoint.
I know my thoughts on this stuff is unconventional (I don't have a problem with plagiarism and see most cheating as just effective communication and resource usage...and no, I didn't cheat to get my degree), but that rule seems extremely poorly thought out.
One thing I remember professors doing in a similar vein was to cast a wide net (a net that they definitely know has significant amount of false positives), and send all of those students what basically amounts to a plea deal. If you admit to plagiarism in writing, the only penalty will be a 0 on the assignment. If you do not, then it will have to be escalated to a University investigation, and if you are found guilty the course staff will suggest the maximum penalty possible (up to immediate expulsion).
Always felt a little scummy. I'm sure many students did the metal calculus and decided that taking the 0 even though they didn't cheat was worth it over months of arguing against the course staff (equivalent to a lengthy court procedure), probably causing significant amounts of mental anguish, with the looming threat of whatever maximum penalty they can concoct for the case hanging over you.
Old-ish Al Pacino movie Scent of a Woman explores exactly this idea, of forcing students to snitch on each other. Excellent movie with many other interesting themes, as well. Best tango scene, ever.
I see no problem with what you're saying, as long as they aren't directly copying and pasting and are citing their sources. If they are literally copying and pasting, then they aren't learning much...
Well, clearly that policy didn't work in this case because nobody snitched?
I also thought it was weird that the students were so worried about snitches but didn't do anything at all to avoid getting caught until it was far too late. They acted like they could do what they liked in a chat room with lots of people they didn't know and had no reason to trust.
It seems like they were, if anything, too trusting? They thought they were invulnerable. Maybe an environment of distrust would be an improvement?
I find it a bit hard to believe that they're college students, to be honest. They seem younger?
How do we know this story is true, anyway?
This specific story, I guess we don't. But the prof who wrote it has a significant formal online presence as a prof at CUNY.
I can totally understand the urge to cheat, especially on an online class, but honestly I have no sympathy for the majority of this class. Every modern school is set up with a tremendous number of resources available to students; it’s not uncommon for colleges to have free tutoring for a number of subjects, and many professors are willing to spend extra time with you to help you understand their subjects. It seems to me that most of these students are the worst types; the ones who aren’t interested in learning. They are the types who have the tendency to drag the whole class down with them (see how the professor was considering failing the entire class).
I get that being an online class changes the equation quite a bit (I was doing them before the pandemic and since it started I have only been doing them), but in some ways it kind of makes this mass cheating worse. The most common reason people fail online classes is simply because they do not spend enough time studying, often because they do not do simple things like planning to do so, leading to assignments being either abandoned or half-assed. I suppose the good thing about online classes is that they are less likely to become derailed by people who are very far behind the class.
—-
Coincidentally my last class did something that I think may have been set up as an attempt to stop this particular phenomenon from happening. At the beginning of the class the professor set up a demi-anonymous discord server for the class so they could have the social connection with the explicit knowledge that it was supervised by the professor.
Some people posted some stuff but unfortunately it wasn’t terribly popular. Only maybe a quarter of the class joined.
When I was a student, I have been in situations where a lot of people cheated, and I was harmed for being honest. When enough people cheat for a lot of time, teachers will learn to expect an unrealistic performance and being honest can actually harm you.
For context, this was decades ago and not in the US.
That was an amazing read. Thank you for sharing it.
Lots of good quality discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31544634
In case you find animated gifs annoying in an article, here's a plaintext copy
I had to keep deleting them in my browser dev tools. I find it almost impossible to read text when there's flashing images somewhere on screen.
right! it drives me insane. I made a userstyle (Stylus) for txtify so it isn't white on black -- its solved a lot of issues with these polluted posts.