34 votes

US Supreme Court upholds Tennessee ban on youth gender-affirming care

17 comments

  1. kasio
    (edited )
    Link
    Nothing says "freedom" like preventing teenagers from feeling okay about themselves! Seriously worried this helps pave the way for a national ban, maybe even for adults. It's obviously what the...

    Nothing says "freedom" like preventing teenagers from feeling okay about themselves!

    Seriously worried this helps pave the way for a national ban, maybe even for adults. It's obviously what the red team is aiming for, and it really sucks to watch them inch closer and closer.

    I've been holding out hope that midterm elections will flip the senate/house and we'll be okay but it's starting to feel like that's too far off.

    28 votes
  2. [2]
    CannibalisticApple
    Link
    Something that's been on my mind recently, and no idea where else to talk about it but it's a bit relevant here. I met a kid while volunteering at a camp this week, and I and another volunteer...

    Something that's been on my mind recently, and no idea where else to talk about it but it's a bit relevant here.

    I met a kid while volunteering at a camp this week, and I and another volunteer happened to see them go in the men's bathroom. We thought the kid was a girl so another worker went in to let him know, and upon returning told us he said he was a boy. Another volunteer who knew him better was passing by and quickly confirmed he was a boy. The first volunteer and I looked at each other and shrugged. "Oh, guess he's trans, maybe...?" No big deal to us, but I was a little worried because we're in a red state and I knew some people might not react so well.

    After he left the bathroom and we all returned to the main camp area, he came up to me to comment about the worker saying he was in tbe bathroom. He wasn't angry or upset, just kind of bemused it happened at all. And talking to him, I realized he was cis.

    This kid is barely at the start of puberty so his voice hasn't dropped yet, with shoulder-length hair and a bit overweight to the point he himself acknowledged that his chest could be mistaken for breasts. Part of our confusion stemmed from his name, which is usually a female variant of a fairly common name. Turns out it was a combination of his first and last names because his class had multiple kids with his first name. Think something like Nick E, which we thought was Nikki.

    All of that combined to make him one of the most androgynous people I've ever met, through no effort or intention on his part. Even his shirt was a pinkish color with some pink graphics, just adding to the impression. From our conversation, he's been mistaken for a girl before and he was kind of mystified by it. Again, not in a bad way, just kind of bemused and wondering why in a light-hearted way.

    And my thoughts keep going back to that initial concern when I saw him go into a bathroom. I was worried this innocent kid could walk into the bathroom in front of a raging bigot, because we do live in a red state, and I'd had the fleeting thought that maybe I should warn him to be careful in the future. I wouldn't, because it isn't my place to have that conversation with a strange kid, but the thought still passed my mind for a half-second.

    The concern that spurred that fleeting thought is still there, but in some ways it kind of feels worse now. This kid is a kid. He has no clue this is a concern, because it shouldn't be a concern. I will probably never see him again, but I think I'll be worrying for a long time that this kid who's not even a teenager yet might someday encounter some raging bigot spewing vile hatred at him. Hatred towards a group he doesn't even belong to, because he doesn't fit the "standard" image of a boy. And how many other kids are at that precarious point pre-puberty where they're highly androgynous, and easily mistaken for the opposite sex? Little girls with short hair and undeveloped chests, and little boys with long hair and still-high voices?

    Bigotry like this hurts far more than the intended targets. And there's something extra sick that I'm more concerned about random adults being transphobic bigots than his fellow kids bullying him for looking like a girl.

    23 votes
    1. kfwyre
      Link Parent
      Kudos to you for volunteering at a camp and keeping the kids’ well-being at the front and center of your thoughts. They’re lucky to have someone like you.

      Kudos to you for volunteering at a camp and keeping the kids’ well-being at the front and center of your thoughts.

      They’re lucky to have someone like you.

      11 votes
  3. [11]
    teaearlgraycold
    Link
    I would have expected that in the case of HRT this would have been easy to scientifically disprove as experimental to the Supreme Court. Isn’t it widely proven to be safe and also critically...

    Tennessee, meanwhile, has argued that the ban is necessary to protect children from what it termed “experimental” medical treatment.

    I would have expected that in the case of HRT this would have been easy to scientifically disprove as experimental to the Supreme Court. Isn’t it widely proven to be safe and also critically important to the health of trans kids?

    20 votes
    1. Gaywallet
      Link Parent
      The supreme court does not care about what is scientifically sound or not when it comes to party issues. Over the years the supreme court has simply become more and more politically motivated, and...

      The supreme court does not care about what is scientifically sound or not when it comes to party issues. Over the years the supreme court has simply become more and more politically motivated, and that political slant has only increased exponentially in the last decade.

      28 votes
    2. [3]
      nacho
      Link Parent
      I have pro-LGBT relatives who work in medicine who say this is arguably right. Especially considering things like long-term effects and "well-being" and other psychosocial effects that take years...

      I would have expected that in the case of HRT this would have been easy to scientifically disprove as experimental to the Supreme Court.

      I have pro-LGBT relatives who work in medicine who say this is arguably right. Especially considering things like long-term effects and "well-being" and other psychosocial effects that take years to manifest and potentially on the order of decades of study to see the long-term effects.

      It's a self-fulfilling situation: because we have to "protect the children" from experimental medical treatment, we never get the experiments done required to test treatment for trans youth.

      Trans treatment is exactly the reverse of cancer research, where there's very little to lose with a terminal diagnosis with traditional treatment. In that scenario, trying out experimental treatments leads the patient with everything to gain and very little to lose.


      However, I agree with others who don't think The Supreme Court cares about the science at all but just struck it down based on ideology.

      16 votes
      1. [2]
        teaearlgraycold
        Link Parent
        I have discussed this at length with a friend (a Democrat in Florida) who passively opposes trans rights. In the end it boiled down to him saying “But what if they change their mind? What if the...

        I have discussed this at length with a friend (a Democrat in Florida) who passively opposes trans rights. In the end it boiled down to him saying “But what if they change their mind? What if the whole thing could have been avoided?”. This seemed to stem from a fear that the parents/relatives of trans kids might feel uncomfortable around a transitioning teen and thus their social discomfort should be prioritized.

        My response was that no one should care. If they do change their mind no harm has been done. HRT is reversible. And your presented gender shouldn’t be important to people other than yourself. Teens try plenty of things and no one should be too worried about that.

        26 votes
        1. Minori
          Link Parent
          It's as reversible as puberty. There are irreversible effects like voice deepening on testosterone or hips widening on estrogen. Whether it's reversible or not, doing nothing still has active,...

          HRT is reversible.

          It's as reversible as puberty. There are irreversible effects like voice deepening on testosterone or hips widening on estrogen.

          Whether it's reversible or not, doing nothing still has active, irreversible effects for minors especially. That doing nothing still has permanent effects is, somehow, hard for people to understand, but it helps explain why banning puberty blockers is moronic.

          10 votes
    3. [5]
      tanglisha
      Link Parent
      I wouldn’t be surprised if they go after women’s HRT next, no way they’d take away testosterone. Taking a swath of people and removing their ability to sleep and think is only going to further...

      I wouldn’t be surprised if they go after women’s HRT next, no way they’d take away testosterone. Taking a swath of people and removing their ability to sleep and think is only going to further MAGA goals.

      8 votes
      1. [4]
        sparksbet
        Link Parent
        They absolutely would if it's being used for gender-affirming care. The transphobes trying to ban HRT absolutely are not going to exempt transmascs, and it's kinda insulting to hear someone insist...

        no way they’d take away testosterone

        They absolutely would if it's being used for gender-affirming care. The transphobes trying to ban HRT absolutely are not going to exempt transmascs, and it's kinda insulting to hear someone insist they would. Especially when testosterone is already a controlled substance and estradiol is not, making DIY HRT more dangerous for transmascs on a legal front.

        10 votes
        1. [3]
          tanglisha
          Link Parent
          No insult meant, and I'm not insisting on anything. I've started basing the likelihood of something happening lately on the largest number of non white CIS males who would potentially be hurt. My...

          They absolutely would if it's being used for gender-affirming care. The transphobes trying to ban HRT absolutely are not going to exempt transmascs, and it's kinda insulting to hear someone insist they would.

          No insult meant, and I'm not insisting on anything. I've started basing the likelihood of something happening lately on the largest number of non white CIS males who would potentially be hurt.

          My meaning was a sweeping ban on all uses, adding them to the Schedule 1 list with "no currently accepted medical use". I didn't bring up estradiol because I think it's more likely they'd go after progestin, which is also used in birth control and is the only type of hormone used in IUDs. They might even justify it by going after birth control specifically.

          Estradiol taken without progestin raises the risk of endometrial cancer in folks who have a uterus, enough that most folks stopped using estradiol for HRT entirely before the progestin link was found and HRT in general still has a bad reputation as a result.

          I've been around hardcore anti abortion people. They feel that using an IUD means having an abortion every month and want them banned. One of those people was a nurse.

          6 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            They're perfectly willing to ban medication for trans kids - puberty blockers - but not for cis kids with precocious puberty. So banning HRT for trans adults, or as birth control or for people...

            They're perfectly willing to ban medication for trans kids - puberty blockers - but not for cis kids with precocious puberty. So banning HRT for trans adults, or as birth control or for people with PCOS, etc. while allowing all the cis people to still get their gender affirming care is very realistic for their playbook

            8 votes
          2. sparksbet
            Link Parent
            It is perfectly consistent for them to ban HRT as gender affirming care without banning them for cis people. That's consistent with what they did here, and I don't think we have any indication...

            It is perfectly consistent for them to ban HRT as gender affirming care without banning them for cis people. That's consistent with what they did here, and I don't think we have any indication they'd do otherwise. Transphobic lawmakers are totally willing to tailor these laws to specifically target trans people. I don't think adding these drugs to the Schedule 1 list is particularly likely, but it's also not remotely necessary to prevent trans people from legally accessing HRT.

            I grew up as a hardcore anti-abortion person, so I get it. But that's only tangentially relevant to outlawing HRT insofar as it's done by the same people using many of the same methods.

            5 votes
    4. PepperJackson
      Link Parent
      If you think that the Supreme Court cares about the merits of the case, and didn't have their minds made up before the case came before them, I have a bridge to sell you. They work backwards from...

      If you think that the Supreme Court cares about the merits of the case, and didn't have their minds made up before the case came before them, I have a bridge to sell you. They work backwards from their desired outcome to manufacture the law.

      7 votes
  4. cheep_cheep
    Link
    I know that the goal isn't actually to use logic in a lot of these cases...but I find it baffling that the argument to "let people decide what to do with their own bodies" doesn't work here. If...

    I know that the goal isn't actually to use logic in a lot of these cases...but I find it baffling that the argument to "let people decide what to do with their own bodies" doesn't work here. If the child and parents/guardian decide they want to do this, especially with support from a doctor, why can't they? If we allow people to skip vaccines even though there is measurable risk to their communities, why the hell is it ok to ban care if the parents/guardian and children want it? (I believe children should be allowed to have agency in their own care, but parents/guardians have legal rights here that also get considered with minors, which is why I've included them here.)

    14 votes
  5. [2]
    skybrian
    Link
    Here's a long read from the New York Times on the politics leading up to the Supreme Court decision: How the Transgender Rights Movement Bet on the Supreme Court and Lost The politics seem very...

    Here's a long read from the New York Times on the politics leading up to the Supreme Court decision:

    How the Transgender Rights Movement Bet on the Supreme Court and Lost

    The politics seem very complicated, but here are a few quotes from the middle:

    The demands set off a furious debate within WPATH. Conservative politicians might attack WPATH for recommending medical intervention at younger ages than before. But Bowers, the group’s president-elect, pointed out that without specific age requirements, “insurers may not grant authorization” for pediatric care. Others worried about capitulating to political pressures in what WPATH intended to present as an “evidence-based” document.

    Just as WPATH’s internal emails began trickling into public view, the Supreme Court announced that it would hear Skrmetti. Not long after, Levine’s requests to WPATH were reported by The Times. White House officials were blindsided, several told me. Though Levine would later tell Biden aides that she had been trying to protect the president, the West Wing saw it differently: Her request could suggest that the administration thought there should be no minimum ages at all. “Everyone was like, holy cow — did Rachel Levine really go out and lobby for 9-year-olds to get surgery?” one former Biden aide told me. (Levine’s spokesman says she based “all policy recommendations on the best available science.”)

    ...

    Cass’s report sent shock waves across the Atlantic. There was “no evidence” that gender-affirming treatments reduced the risk that trans teenagers would die by suicide, her review found. SOC-8’s adolescent chapter lacked “developmental rigor.” And the much-cited consensus of medical associations was a mirage. Few of the groups endorsing gender-affirming care had actually conducted their own in-depth evidence reviews, her team found; instead, nearly all had relied on older Endocrine Society and WPATH guidelines as the basis for their own recommendations.

    There was now a dawning awareness within the administration, another Biden aide told me, that its allies in the L.G.B.T.Q. movement had overstated the medical case for pediatric gender-affirming care. Unwilling to abandon the broader cause of trans rights, and wary of arbitrating a contentious medical debate, aides drafted statements clarifying that Levine didn’t speak for the administration. “We believe these surgeries should be limited to adults,” the White House told one outlet.

    Tennessee’s ban on surgery was not before the justices in Skrmetti. (That provision of Tennessee’s law had remained intact in 2023, after the trial judge ruled that L.W. and other plaintiffs did not have standing to challenge it.) But the Biden administration had now put itself on both sides of a different question before the Supreme Court. As a matter of policy, the White House was now on record opposing part of WPATH’s new standards of care. But in court, Justice Department lawyers had held up WPATH’s recommendations, and those of other medical associations, as reliable guidelines for care. If the federal government could pick and choose from among WPATH’s recommendations, Alabama’s attorney general later argued in a blistering amicus brief in Skrmetti, why couldn’t states? The White House understood its dilemma, two of the aides told me, but concluded that it was more important to prevent Trump from being re-elected.

    There was also growing tension between the A.C.L.U. and the Justice Department, three former government officials told me. (The A.C.L.U. and a spokeswoman for Prelogar denied this account.) In later briefs to the court, the administration would brush off the Alabama revelations as “out-of-context excerpts” from “a different case.” In private, though, some administration lawyers worried that their allies had pushed them onto thin scientific ice.

    2 votes
    1. Gaywallet
      Link Parent
      NYT has been running anti-trans pieces for quite some time, and the fact that they are talking about the Cass review, which is widely discredited by academics, as "sending shock waves" is...

      NYT has been running anti-trans pieces for quite some time, and the fact that they are talking about the Cass review, which is widely discredited by academics, as "sending shock waves" is nonsense. Frankly speaking, why should anyone bother reading this?

      3 votes