The trains from Tel Aviv were packed one evening last month when Inbal Boxerman, a 40-year-old mother of two, was blocked by a wall of men as she tried to board. One of them told her that women...
The trains from Tel Aviv were packed one evening last month when Inbal Boxerman, a 40-year-old mother of two, was blocked by a wall of men as she tried to board. One of them told her that women were not allowed on — the car was for men only.
Ms. Boxerman was stunned. It was a public train operated by Israel Railways, and segregated seating is illegal in the country. The men stopping her appeared to be protesters going home from a rally supporting the governing coalition, which includes extremist religious and far-right parties pushing for more sex segregation and a return to more traditional gender roles.
“I said, ‘For real?’” said Ms. Boxerman, who works in marketing. “And my friend came up and she also said, ‘Are you for real?’ But they just laughed and said, ‘Wait for the next train — you can sit in the way back.’ And then the doors slammed shut.”
Public transportation is the latest front of a culture war in Israel over the status of women in a society that is sharply divided between a secular majority and politically powerful minority of ultra-Orthodox Jews, who frown on the mixing of women and men in public.
Our public transportation is already an absolute joke; to think that it can somehow get worse is just depressing. I find, anecdotally, that the crux of the issue isn't the far-right religious...
Our public transportation is already an absolute joke; to think that it can somehow get worse is just depressing.
I find, anecdotally, that the crux of the issue isn't the far-right religious community - they are the origin, but under normal circumstances they wouldn't be given an audience - rather it is our moderate/centrist community comprised mostly of our baby boomer generation who are so used to stability under Bibi despite his corruption claims that they're willing to look past the horrific characters in government so long as they don't have to handle the embarrassment of left-wing leadership. Faith has eroded in the left, leaving the playing field empty.
I don't have much hope. Even "normal" people who used to be moderate seem to be okay with actual fascists leading them, which signals the average Orthodox Jew that they're free to impose their values on others.
I don't think Israel is split along generational lines as much as it is along geographic/cultural ones. The poor peripheries have been sold on the idea of strongmen like Lieberman and Bibi and the...
I don't think Israel is split along generational lines as much as it is along geographic/cultural ones. The poor peripheries have been sold on the idea of strongmen like Lieberman and Bibi and the security uber alles. The big secular cities vote mostly moderate. The Arabs vote for the Arab parties (if they vote at all), the Orthodox for the religious parties, the settlers for Smotrich and the older Russians for Lieberman. There are many old kibbutznik boomers still voting predominantly left.
And yeah, I have very little faith as well. I think Israel in 10 years is going to be a theocratic "illiberal democracy" a la Hungary. Get out while you still can.
Bibi needs to go. I won't advocate for violence, but the joke that he's the least favorite child even though he's the PM must really sting and get to his head. I would love to see a coalition of...
Bibi needs to go. I won't advocate for violence, but the joke that he's the least favorite child even though he's the PM must really sting and get to his head. I would love to see a coalition of progressives blow through his "Moderate" policies.
I find that we always default to wondering about the women raising men like this. What about the men? The fathers, family members, role models that men encounter? It seems to me that no matter...
I find that we always default to wondering about the women raising men like this. What about the men? The fathers, family members, role models that men encounter? It seems to me that no matter what kind of behavior men display, it somehow seems to become a woman's fault anyway - why didn't his mother raise him right? I think that's a bit unfair.
You are not wrong but wtf, how am I making it the woman's fault!? The reason I defaulted to the mothers is that they are the ones who raise children in ultra conservative societies... But yes, of...
You are not wrong but wtf, how am I making it the woman's fault!?
The reason I defaulted to the mothers is that they are the ones who raise children in ultra conservative societies... But yes, of course the fathers are to blame at least as much, if not more. But maybe the mothers are a little less likely to be extremely misogynistic like this, and the fathers probably like that their sons are following in their footsteps.
Even though the women are the ones doing the child rearing in these societies, I still think it ultimately comes back to the fathers as the heads of the households. I have to wonder what the...
Even though the women are the ones doing the child rearing in these societies, I still think it ultimately comes back to the fathers as the heads of the households. I have to wonder what the reaction of these men would be if they found their wives disciplining their sons for misogynistic behaviour. I don't feel like any attempts to shut down emergent sexist attitudes would be encouraged or allowed to continue.
This is super worrying. Orthodox Jews have a right to practice their religion, but only as long as it doesn't curtail the rights of others. Tolerance means respecting that other people may not...
This is super worrying. Orthodox Jews have a right to practice their religion, but only as long as it doesn't curtail the rights of others. Tolerance means respecting that other people may not agree with you.
I also think it is very worrying when religion becomes the basis for politics.
Israel is increasingly becoming an apartheid state with special rights for Orthodox Jews. The Orthodox community already has a special exemption from mandatory military service, and there are many...
Israel is increasingly becoming an apartheid state with special rights for Orthodox Jews. The Orthodox community already has a special exemption from mandatory military service, and there are many subsidies exclusive to Yeshivas and Rabbinical study. It's fascinating and horrifying to see the rise of a theocracy in Israel.
It makes no sense to me that the majority of secular Jews and Israelis that live there just allow politicians to kowtow to the Orthodox community. They are actively harming the community in the...
It makes no sense to me that the majority of secular Jews and Israelis that live there just allow politicians to kowtow to the Orthodox community. They are actively harming the community in the country. They're also the most warmongering group in the country, despite (or maybe because of) being exempt from service.
I visited Israel in 2014 and the Orthodox community is actively and openly disliked by the Israelis I came across. It's disgusting that they're the ones that are turning the country into what Jews escaped from in Germany (and elsewhere in the world).
The problem with coalition politics everywhere is that the "moderates" always have to form a coalition with the extremes in order to have a governing majority. The hard right extreme is usually...
The problem with coalition politics everywhere is that the "moderates" always have to form a coalition with the extremes in order to have a governing majority. The hard right extreme is usually better funded and more connected to non-governmental centers of power (commerce, military, and religion) than the hard left, so you more often wind up with a center-right government than center-left.
When I first got together with my husband, I said something about jewish people needing Israel because of the Holocaust. He said something that made me think hard. He said, why that land...
When I first got together with my husband, I said something about jewish people needing Israel because of the Holocaust. He said something that made me think hard. He said, why that land specifically? Why did they not offer the jewish world population a country carved out of German territory with at least one edit, major city, not necessarily sea port. Reparations were due, no doubt. But the palestinians had nothing to do with it.
Edit, this is all a lot more complex historically, the Zionists fought for the land, but the point is to answer the argument that the jewish people deserve palestine/israel because Holocaust.
I'm no expert and this is all from memory, so correct me if I am wrong. But I believe that once the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist after the Tripartite Pact lost World War 1, the Allies/Entente...
I'm no expert and this is all from memory, so correct me if I am wrong. But I believe that once the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist after the Tripartite Pact lost World War 1, the Allies/Entente powers carved up some Middle Eastern territories for themselves that had previously been Ottoman. So following World War 2, the territory that became Israel as we know it used to belong to France (I think). Again, somebody please do correct me if I am wrong!
Edit: I was indeed wrong, please see what u/fraughtGYRE wrote below!
It belonged to Britain, sort of. Palestine was organized as a Mandate from the League of Nations (interwar pre-UN organisation), designed to be administered by Britain until independence could be...
Exemplary
It belonged to Britain, sort of. Palestine was organized as a Mandate from the League of Nations (interwar pre-UN organisation), designed to be administered by Britain until independence could be safely granted. Following WW2, the UN voted to implement a partition plan supported by the Jewish leaders, and rejected by their Arab leaders on the basis that it was too favourable to the Jewish people and denied the Palestinian Arabs self-determination. But it was never implemented due to the outbreak of the 1947-48 Palestine Civil War which began at the termination of the British Mandate, and the subsequent Arab invasion. Following this Israel ended up capturing ~60% of the land allocated to the Palestinians under the plan.
Jewish migration to then Palestine (from west) started in 19th century, while many Jews already lived in those lands. After the fall of Ottoman empire the immigration was sped up and was supported...
Jewish migration to then Palestine (from west) started in 19th century, while many Jews already lived in those lands. After the fall of Ottoman empire the immigration was sped up and was supported by the colonial powers. By the start of WW2, the land had a sizeable Jewish population.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) Jewish population of the rough Palestine area was under 5% before WWI. The establishment of the British mandate of...
Jewish population of the rough Palestine area was under 5% before WWI. The establishment of the British mandate of Palestine after WWI led to a rise in the Jewish population until it was at 32% of the total population by 1948. The establishment of Israel was basically European colonization of the area starting after WWI. Which was a broken promise to the Arabs living in the area when they helped the Allies fight the Ottomans with the promise of establishing their own independent country.
no, I didn't, actually. you said, emphasis added: and then, emphasis added: there's a bait-and-switch here. the exact dimensions as of 1948 are hard to pin down, but the first area you're...
You know that's not what I was saying, nor referring to
no, I didn't, actually.
you said, emphasis added:
the majority of the land that fell within the original borders of Jerusalem was already Jewish owned
and then, emphasis added:
it was relatively easy to carve out the original borders of Israel
there's a bait-and-switch here.
the exact dimensions as of 1948 are hard to pin down, but the first area you're referring to would be somewhere between 0.9 km2 (the Old City) and 125 km2 (the size of the current city limits).
and the second area seems to be around 14,300 km2, based on this stating that Israel was allocated 56% of the 25,585 km2 of Mandatory Palestine.
the point I was making is that you're justifying the annexation of the second area, based on land ownership of the first. and that 700,000 people already lived on the land you're glossing over.
I was simply describing why England did not just carve out a chunk of central Europe for the Jewish population
by this standard, if they had identified an area in central Europe that was 14,300 km2 in size, with less than 700,000 non-Jewish people already living there as of 1948, it would have been even easier to create a Jewish state on that land instead?
I think there's a simpler explanation - those 1948-era Brits viewed non-Jewish central Europeans as actual people, with a legitimate claim to the land they lived on. and they didn't think of Palestinian Arabs the same way.
I wanted to share a very informative podcast series on this subject: A History of Modern Palestine there are six (I think?) parts to it The podcast, American Prestige, is a very leftist historical...
I wanted to share a very informative podcast series on this subject: A History of Modern Palestine there are six (I think?) parts to it
The podcast, American Prestige, is a very leftist historical exploration of America as (waning) Empire, so realize there is a definite viewpoint. However, the format is to interview historians who are subject matter experts on different area of the world. If you like this sort of thing, the series on Afghanistan and Vietnam are both great as well. They also do a weekly segment with coverage of international current events.
Not unique to Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, it's just another data point in the global authoritarian patriarchal backlash that's a response to times of significant crisis. Among climate change,...
Not unique to Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, it's just another data point in the global authoritarian patriarchal backlash that's a response to times of significant crisis.
Among climate change, demographic turmoil, the Great Power realignments, pandemic upheavals, the beginnings of an AI-mediated technological shift in the composition of labor which will rival the agrarian/industrial transition, we're spoiled for choice of stressors.
No it's not unique. What's unique is that these people finally feel emboldened enough by their trash sectarian representatives that they do this in public in broad daylight. They know they will...
No it's not unique. What's unique is that these people finally feel emboldened enough by their trash sectarian representatives that they do this in public in broad daylight. They know they will never be prosecuted.
Can some kind person share a gift link or an archive link please? This story seems important and interesting. The full text was shared where I found it, but we don't do that here.
Can some kind person share a gift link or an archive link please? This story seems important and interesting. The full text was shared where I found it, but we don't do that here.
I’m more inclined to blame the Middle East and Israel than Judaism itself. This wouldn’t fly among Jews here in the UK for example as far as I understand.
I’m more inclined to blame the Middle East and Israel than Judaism itself.
This wouldn’t fly among Jews here in the UK for example as far as I understand.
The trains from Tel Aviv were packed one evening last month when Inbal Boxerman, a 40-year-old mother of two, was blocked by a wall of men as she tried to board. One of them told her that women were not allowed on — the car was for men only.
Ms. Boxerman was stunned. It was a public train operated by Israel Railways, and segregated seating is illegal in the country. The men stopping her appeared to be protesters going home from a rally supporting the governing coalition, which includes extremist religious and far-right parties pushing for more sex segregation and a return to more traditional gender roles.
“I said, ‘For real?’” said Ms. Boxerman, who works in marketing. “And my friend came up and she also said, ‘Are you for real?’ But they just laughed and said, ‘Wait for the next train — you can sit in the way back.’ And then the doors slammed shut.”
Public transportation is the latest front of a culture war in Israel over the status of women in a society that is sharply divided between a secular majority and politically powerful minority of ultra-Orthodox Jews, who frown on the mixing of women and men in public.
Our public transportation is already an absolute joke; to think that it can somehow get worse is just depressing.
I find, anecdotally, that the crux of the issue isn't the far-right religious community - they are the origin, but under normal circumstances they wouldn't be given an audience - rather it is our moderate/centrist community comprised mostly of our baby boomer generation who are so used to stability under Bibi despite his corruption claims that they're willing to look past the horrific characters in government so long as they don't have to handle the embarrassment of left-wing leadership. Faith has eroded in the left, leaving the playing field empty.
I don't have much hope. Even "normal" people who used to be moderate seem to be okay with actual fascists leading them, which signals the average Orthodox Jew that they're free to impose their values on others.
I don't think Israel is split along generational lines as much as it is along geographic/cultural ones. The poor peripheries have been sold on the idea of strongmen like Lieberman and Bibi and the security uber alles. The big secular cities vote mostly moderate. The Arabs vote for the Arab parties (if they vote at all), the Orthodox for the religious parties, the settlers for Smotrich and the older Russians for Lieberman. There are many old kibbutznik boomers still voting predominantly left.
And yeah, I have very little faith as well. I think Israel in 10 years is going to be a theocratic "illiberal democracy" a la Hungary. Get out while you still can.
Bibi needs to go. I won't advocate for violence, but the joke that he's the least favorite child even though he's the PM must really sting and get to his head. I would love to see a coalition of progressives blow through his "Moderate" policies.
I wish you all so much luck as a Jew in the US.
That is so disgusting... I wonder what the women who raised those men would have to say about their sons behavior.
Depending on how they were raised it might be their views too unfortunately
I find that we always default to wondering about the women raising men like this. What about the men? The fathers, family members, role models that men encounter? It seems to me that no matter what kind of behavior men display, it somehow seems to become a woman's fault anyway - why didn't his mother raise him right? I think that's a bit unfair.
You are not wrong but wtf, how am I making it the woman's fault!?
The reason I defaulted to the mothers is that they are the ones who raise children in ultra conservative societies... But yes, of course the fathers are to blame at least as much, if not more. But maybe the mothers are a little less likely to be extremely misogynistic like this, and the fathers probably like that their sons are following in their footsteps.
Even though the women are the ones doing the child rearing in these societies, I still think it ultimately comes back to the fathers as the heads of the households. I have to wonder what the reaction of these men would be if they found their wives disciplining their sons for misogynistic behaviour. I don't feel like any attempts to shut down emergent sexist attitudes would be encouraged or allowed to continue.
That's just... Straight out of The Handmaid's Tale...
This is super worrying. Orthodox Jews have a right to practice their religion, but only as long as it doesn't curtail the rights of others. Tolerance means respecting that other people may not agree with you.
I also think it is very worrying when religion becomes the basis for politics.
Israel is increasingly becoming an apartheid state with special rights for Orthodox Jews. The Orthodox community already has a special exemption from mandatory military service, and there are many subsidies exclusive to Yeshivas and Rabbinical study. It's fascinating and horrifying to see the rise of a theocracy in Israel.
It makes no sense to me that the majority of secular Jews and Israelis that live there just allow politicians to kowtow to the Orthodox community. They are actively harming the community in the country. They're also the most warmongering group in the country, despite (or maybe because of) being exempt from service.
I visited Israel in 2014 and the Orthodox community is actively and openly disliked by the Israelis I came across. It's disgusting that they're the ones that are turning the country into what Jews escaped from in Germany (and elsewhere in the world).
The problem with coalition politics everywhere is that the "moderates" always have to form a coalition with the extremes in order to have a governing majority. The hard right extreme is usually better funded and more connected to non-governmental centers of power (commerce, military, and religion) than the hard left, so you more often wind up with a center-right government than center-left.
It seems like this issue has spread far beyond just the Orthodox community in Israel. Though I don't disagree with anything you said.
When I first got together with my husband, I said something about jewish people needing Israel because of the Holocaust. He said something that made me think hard. He said, why that land specifically? Why did they not offer the jewish world population a country carved out of German territory with at least one edit, major city, not necessarily sea port. Reparations were due, no doubt. But the palestinians had nothing to do with it.
Edit, this is all a lot more complex historically, the Zionists fought for the land, but the point is to answer the argument that the jewish people deserve palestine/israel because Holocaust.
I'm no expert and this is all from memory, so correct me if I am wrong. But I believe that once the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist after the Tripartite Pact lost World War 1, the Allies/Entente powers carved up some Middle Eastern territories for themselves that had previously been Ottoman. So following World War 2, the territory that became Israel as we know it used to belong to France (I think). Again, somebody please do correct me if I am wrong!
Edit: I was indeed wrong, please see what u/fraughtGYRE wrote below!
It belonged to Britain, sort of. Palestine was organized as a Mandate from the League of Nations (interwar pre-UN organisation), designed to be administered by Britain until independence could be safely granted. Following WW2, the UN voted to implement a partition plan supported by the Jewish leaders, and rejected by their Arab leaders on the basis that it was too favourable to the Jewish people and denied the Palestinian Arabs self-determination. But it was never implemented due to the outbreak of the 1947-48 Palestine Civil War which began at the termination of the British Mandate, and the subsequent Arab invasion. Following this Israel ended up capturing ~60% of the land allocated to the Palestinians under the plan.
Jewish migration to then Palestine (from west) started in 19th century, while many Jews already lived in those lands. After the fall of Ottoman empire the immigration was sped up and was supported by the colonial powers. By the start of WW2, the land had a sizeable Jewish population.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
Jewish population of the rough Palestine area was under 5% before WWI. The establishment of the British mandate of Palestine after WWI led to a rise in the Jewish population until it was at 32% of the total population by 1948. The establishment of Israel was basically European colonization of the area starting after WWI. Which was a broken promise to the Arabs living in the area when they helped the Allies fight the Ottomans with the promise of establishing their own independent country.
I thought it was Churchill's decision but I could also be wrong.
Because the Jews wanted their holy land and not Germany.
Yes, but the UK was under no obligation to give them Palestine.
you're describing the displacement of 700,000 people as "relatively easy"?
no, I didn't, actually.
you said, emphasis added:
and then, emphasis added:
there's a bait-and-switch here.
the exact dimensions as of 1948 are hard to pin down, but the first area you're referring to would be somewhere between 0.9 km2 (the Old City) and 125 km2 (the size of the current city limits).
and the second area seems to be around 14,300 km2, based on this stating that Israel was allocated 56% of the 25,585 km2 of Mandatory Palestine.
the point I was making is that you're justifying the annexation of the second area, based on land ownership of the first. and that 700,000 people already lived on the land you're glossing over.
by this standard, if they had identified an area in central Europe that was 14,300 km2 in size, with less than 700,000 non-Jewish people already living there as of 1948, it would have been even easier to create a Jewish state on that land instead?
I think there's a simpler explanation - those 1948-era Brits viewed non-Jewish central Europeans as actual people, with a legitimate claim to the land they lived on. and they didn't think of Palestinian Arabs the same way.
The UK gave them that land to get Jews far the hell away from Europe.
I wanted to share a very informative podcast series on this subject: A History of Modern Palestine there are six (I think?) parts to it
The podcast, American Prestige, is a very leftist historical exploration of America as (waning) Empire, so realize there is a definite viewpoint. However, the format is to interview historians who are subject matter experts on different area of the world. If you like this sort of thing, the series on Afghanistan and Vietnam are both great as well. They also do a weekly segment with coverage of international current events.
Thank you!
Not unique to Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, it's just another data point in the global authoritarian patriarchal backlash that's a response to times of significant crisis.
Among climate change, demographic turmoil, the Great Power realignments, pandemic upheavals, the beginnings of an AI-mediated technological shift in the composition of labor which will rival the agrarian/industrial transition, we're spoiled for choice of stressors.
No it's not unique. What's unique is that these people finally feel emboldened enough by their trash sectarian representatives that they do this in public in broad daylight. They know they will never be prosecuted.
Can some kind person share a gift link or an archive link please? This story seems important and interesting. The full text was shared where I found it, but we don't do that here.
Gifted article link here!
Thank you so much!
You can often find such an archive on archive.md.
Til Judaism along with most of the other religions can be dickheads to women if left unchecked.
Free Palestine
Judaism is the OG of being shit to women. We literally have a prayer each morning that goes "thank you God for not making me a woman".
Like most religions, there are different branches and interpretations, some of which are authoritarian and hard on women. Thanks for your comment.
I’m more inclined to blame the Middle East and Israel than Judaism itself.
This wouldn’t fly among Jews here in the UK for example as far as I understand.
Oh it absolutely would among Orthodox Jews. Women are still not allowed to sing in public. I don't they're even allowed to show their hair in public