18 votes

Despite support from corporation, Harvard president Claudine Gay under fire over plagiarism allegations

19 comments

  1. [11]
    ignorabimus
    Link
    Seems more like a fishing expedition by people trying to remove her for political reasons: also and this kind of hammers it home more examples:

    Seems more like a fishing expedition by people trying to remove her for political reasons:

    At no point in either paragraph does Gay use quotation marks or include in-text citations. Voss and Palmquist are not cited anywhere in Gay’s dissertation.

    In an interview Monday night, Voss — who said he taught Gay methods at Harvard while he was a teaching fellow and she was a student — said the work was “technically plagiarism,” but described it as “minor-to-inconsequential.”

    He added that similar descriptions of technical methods are common throughout academia.

    “This doesn’t at all look sneaky,” Voss said. “It looks like maybe she just didn’t have a sense of what we normally tell students they’re supposed to do and not do.”

    also

    Rufo and Brunet also focused on Gay’s dissertation, writing that the paper “lifts an entire paragraph nearly verbatim” from a paper by Lawrence D. Bobo and Franklin D. Gilliam Jr. as well as other scholars without using quotation marks. They also alleged that Gay plagiarized political scientist Carol M. Swain and Harvard professor Gary King, who was Gay’s dissertation adviser.

    But Bobo, King, and Gilliam all said they did not feel Gay plagiarized their work.

    In an emailed statement, King — who holds Harvard’s highest faculty rank as a University Professor — called the claims “false and absurd” and “crazy.”

    and this kind of hammers it home

    In their Substack post, Rufo and Brunet wrote that Gay also plagiarized from Swain, a political scientist whose work revolves around race relations and politics, specifically citing a reference to a statistic on the House reelection rate.

    Rufo and Brunet did not note that Gay cited Swain in the following sentence. Her dissertation reads, “Since the 1950s, the reelection rate for incumbent House members has rarely dipped below 90%. In 1994 it was 92.3% (Swain 1997).”

    more examples:

    In a statement, Jeffrey B. Liebman, a professor at Harvard Kennedy School and one of the authors of the 2003 report, wrote, “I do not see any signs of plagiarism,” adding that four of his co-authors also do not have any concerns.

    “It is not surprising when two researchers describe the same statistical procedure or the same government program using similar language,” Liebman wrote. “As the MTO research unfolded, lots of us contributed to developing and refining the language that we used for these basic descriptions, and all of us, including President Gay, had the right to use and adapt this common language.”

    29 votes
    1. [2]
      arghdos
      Link Parent
      Yeah, Chris Rufo has literally admitted as much: https://nitter.net/realchrisrufo/status/1737209215738069232#m There’s plenty of real things to be mad at Harvard for (say: legacy admissions) we...

      Yeah, Chris Rufo has literally admitted as much:

      https://nitter.net/realchrisrufo/status/1737209215738069232#m

      There’s plenty of real things to be mad at Harvard for (say: legacy admissions) we don’t need some right wing nonsense to do so. Also how have the NYT et al. still not learned this playbook?

      30 votes
      1. Drewbahr
        Link Parent
        They profit off of Rufo. They learned that he makes them money.

        They profit off of Rufo. They learned that he makes them money.

        8 votes
    2. [3]
      psi
      Link Parent
      Christopher Rufo is not an academic, so nobody should rely on his judgment in identifying plagiarism. He is, however, a fundamentally dishonest interlocutor, having been largely responsible for...

      Christopher Rufo is not an academic, so nobody should rely on his judgment in identifying plagiarism. He is, however, a fundamentally dishonest interlocutor, having been largely responsible for the moral panic about critical race theory in K-12 schools (not a thing) and LGBT folk "grooming" children to become gay/trans (also not a thing). So I find it highly ironic -- and frankly downright offensive -- that he would accuse someone else of intellectual dishonesty when he's established an entire career around being intellectually dishonest.

      14 votes
      1. DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        God. Dammit. Why is everyone so fucking awful. Sorry I just... It's so frustrating. It isn't that I thought anything about him in particular, it's just frustrating to see rocks turned over and the...

        God. Dammit.

        Why is everyone so fucking awful.

        Sorry I just... It's so frustrating. It isn't that I thought anything about him in particular, it's just frustrating to see rocks turned over and the same bugs crawling out everytime.

        7 votes
      2. ignorabimus
        Link Parent
        It takes one to know one I guess...

        So I find it highly ironic -- and frankly downright offensive -- that he would accuse someone else of intellectual dishonesty when he's established an entire career around being intellectually dishonest.

        It takes one to know one I guess...

        2 votes
    3. [6]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [5]
        langis_on
        Link Parent
        There are little to no students who would face consequences more extreme than losing points or having to redo the assignment for such mild plagiarism.

        There are little to no students who would face consequences more extreme than losing points or having to redo the assignment for such mild plagiarism.

        16 votes
        1. DefinitelyNotAFae
          Link Parent
          Yeah I don't do this sort of conduct but I see it. It depends on the details and the professor/dept but also this is at the level where imo her dissertation was approved a long time ago. It was...

          Yeah I don't do this sort of conduct but I see it. It depends on the details and the professor/dept but also this is at the level where imo her dissertation was approved a long time ago. It was her committee's responsibility.

          It's not fraudulent, just imperfect.

          4 votes
        2. [4]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [2]
            DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            She's not involved in a student conduct process though. So her public response is irrelevant and the student wouldn't make a press release or whatever (and if they did so themselves would probably...

            She's not involved in a student conduct process though. So her public response is irrelevant and the student wouldn't make a press release or whatever (and if they did so themselves would probably say worse).

            I think this, if anything, demonstrates why stressing over plagiarism is overblown especially at the level she was writing at. If her whole dissertation or substantial parts of it were fraudulent sure. But take some points off her grade if you want, never mind that dissertations aren't graded like that.

            It feels like what is the point of holding anyone to this standard after the fact? Should she be fired for not putting her cart back once? For cutting a student off in traffic one day? For cursing in public? There are so many "high standards" we could use and I just don't think "such mild plagiarism even just one person is willing to label it such" is really the bar.

            13 votes
            1. [2]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                Link Parent
                I have minimal respect for Harvard, it's just a school, but I think that taking an admitted reactionary hitjob as anything serious is taking bait from a troll. What's the appropriate consequence?...

                I have minimal respect for Harvard, it's just a school, but I think that taking an admitted reactionary hitjob as anything serious is taking bait from a troll. What's the appropriate consequence?

                University presidents are not supposed to be the pinnacle of academic achievement they're supposed to be good at leading their institution. I just don't see how this matters. It wouldn't matter IMO if she didn't have a doctorate as I think that requirement is just academia being self-serving.

                9 votes
          2. nukeman
            Link Parent
            The take I saw on r/professors is that “sometimes witch-hunts turn up witches”. While this process is certainly politicized, it revealed that the President of a major research university commuted...

            The take I saw on r/professors is that “sometimes witch-hunts turn up witches”. While this process is certainly politicized, it revealed that the President of a major research university commuted plagiarism in her (relatively small) body of work.

  2. rave264
    Link
    It sounds more like since the whole debacle with the congress hearings didn't push her out, they shifted to the 'plagiarism'. Sounds more like a witch-hunt to me, tbh..

    It sounds more like since the whole debacle with the congress hearings didn't push her out, they shifted to the 'plagiarism'. Sounds more like a witch-hunt to me, tbh..

    17 votes
  3. patience_limited
    (edited )
    Link
    The whole affair reminds me of the quote attributed to Cardinal Richelieu, one of the most cutthroat authoritarian politicians in history: "Give me six lines written by the most honest man in the...

    The whole affair reminds me of the quote attributed to Cardinal Richelieu, one of the most cutthroat authoritarian politicians in history:

    "Give me six lines written by the most honest man in the world, and I will find enough in them to hang him."

    Has it never occurred to anyone in the press that a typical humanities dissertation is 250 - 300 pages long, and over the course of Gay's 25+ year academic career, the worst that a dedicated rat-f*cking operation could dig up was a few unattributed quotes that none of her colleagues found remarkable? She must be a candidate for sainthood.

    There's also a particularly poisonous attempt to imply that a Black scholar must have cheated to arrive in a prestigious position. Whatever the thickness of her qualifications when applying, President Gay has been able to fulfill the duties of the role for the past 5 years. Tell me you're witch-hunting liberal academic leaders without telling me.

    16 votes
  4. [2]
    Sodliddesu
    Link
    And Heck, almost everyone listed in the article, excepting Swaim, claims they don't believe it's plagiarism. And all's fair, if Swaim believes she's been plagiarized she's allowed to raise...

    In an interview Monday night, Voss — who said he taught Gay methods at Harvard while he was a teaching fellow and she was a student — said the work was “technically plagiarism,” but described it as “minor-to-inconsequential.”

    And

    “Her dissertation and every one of the numerous drafts I read leading up to the final version met the highest levels of academic integrity,” he wrote. “If you were going to commit plagiarism, would you plagiarize your professor's work and expect to get away with it?”

    Bobo, the dean of Social Science at Harvard, wrote that he is “unconcerned about these claims as our work was explicitly acknowledged.”

    Heck, almost everyone listed in the article, excepting Swaim, claims they don't believe it's plagiarism. And all's fair, if Swaim believes she's been plagiarized she's allowed to raise concerns but where's all this coming from?

    In a post on X Sunday night, right-wing activist Christopher F. Rufo said he and journalist Christopher Brunet intentionally released the story amid calls for Gay’s ouster as Harvard’s governing boards met

    Ah, an activist. Personal bias recognized, I'm immediately dismissive of any right-wing activists.

    Let's get conspiritorial thinking out of the way, maybe all these teachers don't want her plagiarism recognized because it's nice to have leverage on the president of Harvard. Good now that we've recognized that insane possibility maybe, like most of the people who've said it's not plagiarism have said, it's nothing.

    Now, granted, those are some pretty big chunks but this isn't my field of academic study. I'll trust the people in the field saying it's no big deal over the guy just looking for his team to win the culture war he's waging today.

    13 votes
    1. rosco
      Link Parent
      I think it's important to note that Swain has a pretty anti-islam background:

      ...if Swaim believes she's been plagiarized she's allowed to raise concerns but where's all this coming from?

      I think it's important to note that Swain has a pretty anti-islam background:

      On January 16, 2015, in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo shooting, Swain wrote an op-ed criticizing Islam in The Tennessean.[66][67][68] She argued that "Islam is not like other religions in the United States… it poses an absolute danger to us and our children unless it is monitored. […] If America is to be safe, it must… institute serious monitoring of Islamic organizations."[67]

      6 votes
  5. [4]
    EgoEimi
    (edited )
    Link
    John McWhorter, in an NYT opinion piece, points out that her CV is relatively thin compared to her predecessors for her position. None of this is particularly impactful for our current world at...

    John McWhorter, in an NYT opinion piece, points out that her CV is relatively thin compared to her predecessors for her position.

    None of this is particularly impactful for our current world at large, and Gay does seem an accomplished scholar in her own right albeit seemingly junior for her position?, but I do think an interesting point has been raised that her appointment in the first place might have been a little hasty. I think that what John is open implying is that the act of holding such a figure to a lower standard because they're a politically attractive representative actually is disrespectful of and does a disservice to URMs — which is the core problem of tokenization.

    And truth be told, if a conservative figure, like, say, J.D. Vance, were discovered to have committed similar "duplicative language without appropriate attribution" for their books and papers, we (the liberal segment of society) would probably be all over their case.

    Anyway, the amount of time and attention lavished by congress and media alike on university presidents is wasted. In a more enlightened society, our political and thought leaders alike would debate and seek answers or at least working political compromises on the deep philosophical questions that undergird our national problems.

    5 votes
    1. ignorabimus
      Link Parent
      I don't think it's particularly concerning that she doesn't have a stellar academic record – she's there to run the university and probably doesn't have very much time for anything else. It's not...

      I don't think it's particularly concerning that she doesn't have a stellar academic record – she's there to run the university and probably doesn't have very much time for anything else. It's not like Harvard needs a high-profile president to raise the university's profile either.

      And truth be told, if a conservative figure, like, say, J.D. Vance, were discovered to have committed similar "duplicative language without appropriate attribution" for their books and papers, we (the liberal segment of society) would probably be all over their case.

      I doubt it, because the plagiarism appears to be so minor. In addition, there are lots of conservatives (e.g. Charles Murray) who write total trash (see e.g. his Twitter argument where he tries to explain how mathematical research works with Timothy Gowers) and continue to be employed and held in high academic esteem.

      9 votes
    2. NaraVara
      Link Parent
      True, but also supposedly the sources she plagiarized from do not, themselves, feel like they were being plagiarized. (Sadly I can't seem to find the article where this was asserted). I don't...

      And truth be told, if a conservative figure, like, say, J.D. Vance, were discovered to have committed similar "duplicative language without appropriate attribution" for their books and papers, we (the liberal segment of society) would probably be all over their case.

      True, but also supposedly the sources she plagiarized from do not, themselves, feel like they were being plagiarized. (Sadly I can't seem to find the article where this was asserted). I don't think it's entirely unbelievable that, in the course of writing a paper, sections that aren't particularly important to the main thesis escape getting cited. It's easy to take notes on stuff and not keep track of where you got the text, whether you jotted it down as a summary or whether you wrote it down verbatim.

      So I wouldn't categorize it as an ethical breach so much as being a bit scattered or disorganized. Now while those characteristics are almost expected of a stereotypical college professor in the humanities, are those traits you want in a University President? Maybe not. But also being disorganized at one point X years ago doesn't necessarily mean she's a disorganized person today.

      All of that said, I don't really see it as a big deal. People might jump down JD Vance's throat over something like this too, but I don't think he'd realistically be facing getting fired over it either.

      6 votes
    3. sparksbet
      Link Parent
      John McWhorter has long since turned into a reactionary himself (which, as someone with a linguistics background who really respected his work in that field, has been very disappointing) so I'm...

      John McWhorter has long since turned into a reactionary himself (which, as someone with a linguistics background who really respected his work in that field, has been very disappointing) so I'm not particularly sure we should take his opinion without a hefty pinch of salt.

      4 votes