An old friend of mine lives in Moscow and it took them almost a year before they even felt safe emailing on the topic. They are afraid. They won't even talk to friends who they knows feel the same...
An old friend of mine lives in Moscow and it took them almost a year before they even felt safe emailing on the topic. They are afraid. They won't even talk to friends who they knows feel the same (aka, anti-war, anti-Putin), in case someone hears or one of them have been co-opted by the security services.
There's a Soviet-era joke about not walking down the street with a blank piece of paper in case you get arrested for what you might write on it. It's a very Russian "joke" and it is apparently feeling true again these days.
It's all so desperately sad. I was hoping to go one day to visit my friend and see some of Moscow but that doesn't look likely any time soon.
The joke you're talking about is reality. https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-protests-police-arrest-activists-holding-blank-signs-paper-1687603 This was over a year ago. I can...
Man was literally arrested for this just last year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbzV1it1YPY
There's a Soviet-era joke about not walking down the street with a blank piece of paper in case you get arrested for what you might write on it. It's a very Russian "joke" and it is apparently feeling true again these days.
Man was literally arrested for this just last year.
Reminds me of the lady in a YouTube video that was arrested for asking to the camera, intentionally, if they arrested anyone that holds an opinion on the situation? Without stating an opinion to...
Reminds me of the lady in a YouTube video that was arrested for asking to the camera, intentionally, if they arrested anyone that holds an opinion on the situation? Without stating an opinion to begin with. Then the men dressed in black outfits came in from the side and dragged her away.
Frankly, I'd never mention it on anything but Signal etc. if I lived there now. Possibly not at all during Soviet or Tsarist times. It's sad this oppressiveness just won't go away despite constant...
felt safe emailing
Frankly, I'd never mention it on anything but Signal etc. if I lived there now. Possibly not at all during Soviet or Tsarist times. It's sad this oppressiveness just won't go away despite constant turmoil...
They don't have to protest against the war. They can just walk out with this blank paper. They won't ve prosecuted because of antiwar or antirussian slogans, because there will be no slogans. They...
They don't have to protest against the war. They can just walk out with this blank paper. They won't ve prosecuted because of antiwar or antirussian slogans, because there will be no slogans. They will be prosecuted for some minor things. Nobody did that en masse. This makes me feel that not only Russians are afraid, but also the war isn't a big concern for them.
hahahahahaha. You think the Russian government cares about if all they have is a suspicion or think that the courts are not going to just do what the government wants them to. Several people...
hahahahahaha. You think the Russian government cares about if all they have is a suspicion or think that the courts are not going to just do what the government wants them to. Several people already posted they have already arrested people for holding blank pieces of paper.
My very limited understanding leads me to believe 3 things: Many, if not most, Russians aren't against this war. At the very least, they're indifferent to it. I'm an American and I can easily...
Exemplary
My very limited understanding leads me to believe 3 things:
Many, if not most, Russians aren't against this war. At the very least, they're indifferent to it. I'm an American and I can easily remember how many of our citizens were in favor of the war in the Middle East, or at least didn't care or pay attention to it. Especially if you go back to the very early 2000s - people were frothing at the mouth for that war. Only liberals and academics were against it. It was probably 10-15 years before I started hearing average Joes say they were sick of it.
Russia's population has been oppressed for a very, very long time. I have seen many interviews with Russians and many of them share a common sentiment. They'll often say something like, "It is the way it is. Nothing anyone can do about it." I don't think the average Russian has any concept of what it would be like to have freedom of speech or the freedom for average people to become active in politics. Granted, I think America is slowly drifting away from this too as our population becomes more apathetic toward the corporatocracy that beats us down. But we still have more of a fighting spirit toward government failures and injustices overall...for now.
Putin has some things in common with Donald Trump. Remember how many Trump supporters said they would gladly be in favor of making Trump our forever-president? Remember how he could do no wrong as long as he never admitted failure or weakness? Putin is like that. He's a "strong" man who leads by being shameless and flexing his muscle. There are so many humans on this planet who just need to be led by someone or something. They will grab on to religions, cult leaders, political leaders, etc. They just need someone to tell them what to do and who to hate. With this in mind, imagine how scary it would be to speak out against this war when you're ruled by a smart Donald Trump with unlimited power and loyal police/military forces. I think I'd keep my mouth shut too if I didn't want my family or myself to end up in a Russian prison. Haven't heard good things about Russian penal colonies.
This is the key why religions, cults and despots get power. Some people find day to day life just SO much easier when they can just do what they're told and don't need to stress or worry about any...
There are so many humans on this planet who just need to be led by someone or something. They will grab on to religions, cult leaders, political leaders, etc. They just need someone to tell them what to do and who to hate.
This is the key why religions, cults and despots get power. Some people find day to day life just SO much easier when they can just do what they're told and don't need to stress or worry about any of the big stuff.
I'd also add total control of the flow of information. Early in the war, the Russian government eliminated the scant few media outlets that could even remotely resemble anything approaching...
I'd also add total control of the flow of information. Early in the war, the Russian government eliminated the scant few media outlets that could even remotely resemble anything approaching opposition to the war. Now they have an Overton Window that presents a range of acceptable opinions generally between "I support the war" and "I support expanding the war".
Likewise, social media is tightly controlled. Over 600k websites were blocked after the invasion, and the Internet is closely monitored for content the Russian government opposes:
Marina Novikova, 65, was convicted this month in the Siberian city of Seversk of “spreading false information” about the army for antiwar Telegram posts, fining her the equivalent of over $12,400. A Moscow court last week sentenced opposition activist Mikhail Kriger to seven years in prison for Facebook comments in which he expressed a desire “to hang” Putin. Famous blogger Nika Belotserkovskaya, who lives in France, received a nine-year prison term in absentia for Instagram posts about the war that the authorities claimed spread “fakes” about the army.
I was fairly young at the time, but it solidified my ideology: why the fuck would anyone want to be "patriotic?" Nationalism is vile and leads to fascism and mass murder. I'm interested in what...
I was fairly young at the time, but it solidified my ideology: why the fuck would anyone want to be "patriotic?" Nationalism is vile and leads to fascism and mass murder. I'm interested in what other cultures have to offer, not pretending the one I was born into is better than it is. I want the world to be a better place, not just a subset full of people who I already know annoy me with their small-mindedness.
I am a citizen of the world. It was good enough for Diogenes.
Patriotism is useful when you're actually under attack. It might feel foreign to you because the US is a hyperpower, but patriotism is what kept Ukranians from mass dodging the draft, and is what...
Patriotism is useful when you're actually under attack. It might feel foreign to you because the US is a hyperpower, but patriotism is what kept Ukranians from mass dodging the draft, and is what make millions of Ukranian expats to return to their homeland to fight off the Russians. Patriotism is one of the tools we Puerto Ricans have to defend our culture from the American conquest, and patriotism is what kept Spanish alive when the Americans banned it from schools.
Being a citizen of the world is a privilege of someone who knows they have a country to go back to, that their culture will be safe, that their loved ones are well.
I think the reverse is also true -- being under attack (or perceiving oneself to be) is very useful to stoke the fires of patriotism. This is part of why fascist regimes must always have an enemy,...
Patriotism is useful when you're actually under attack.
I think the reverse is also true -- being under attack (or perceiving oneself to be) is very useful to stoke the fires of patriotism. This is part of why fascist regimes must always have an enemy, and they'll manufacture one if they don't. It's sort of a double-edged sword in that way, I think.
Absolutely, it can be twisted and used. I just want to make clear that being able to see yourself as a world citizen is a privilege you can only indulge in when your home and family are safe. For...
Absolutely, it can be twisted and used. I just want to make clear that being able to see yourself as a world citizen is a privilege you can only indulge in when your home and family are safe. For the vast majority of the world, being a patriot is considered a good thing, because it's a feeling that helps you defend your community from actual, real attacks.
Yup, every country will have different experiences. European countries will have different experiences with resisting colonisation, since they were often the ones doing the colonising. That said,...
Yup, every country will have different experiences. European countries will have different experiences with resisting colonisation, since they were often the ones doing the colonising.
That said, I do find Germans are patriots. Just not about Germany, but about the EU.
I have not generally found that to be the case, but it varies a fair bit within Germany on that front I'd day. It's less that they don't have patriotism and more that a lot of the ways if...
I have not generally found that to be the case, but it varies a fair bit within Germany on that front I'd day. It's less that they don't have patriotism and more that a lot of the ways if traditionally expressing patriotism are not really done here imo. Like, if someone hangs a German flag outside their house they're almost definitely far right (at best).
Germany's experience with nationalism and patriotism is so unique that I'm not sure how to even untangle it. It's certainly there. It is politically easier in Germany to give funds to Bavaria than...
Germany's experience with nationalism and patriotism is so unique that I'm not sure how to even untangle it. It's certainly there. It is politically easier in Germany to give funds to Bavaria than to Greece, so it's not like Germans are more enlightened about the equality of humanity or anything.
I think you're on the right track that Germany has a different relationship with the traditional ways of expressing patriotism, but I'm too ignorant of the country to say what alternatives Germans use.
My personal experience is that some of those traditional ways have been emotionally moved up to the EU, but I don't know how common this is.
I generally find the Germans who are the most patriotic tend to be the most anti-EU (and also most racist, etc.) Germans do definitely still have a love for their country, but the trappings of...
I generally find the Germans who are the most patriotic tend to be the most anti-EU (and also most racist, etc.) Germans do definitely still have a love for their country, but the trappings of patriotism are simply too strongly associated with really awful racist people here. The fact that many current and former symbols of the country are often repurposed by neonazis to skirt laws against nazi symbols doesn't help matters.
I don't think Germans really tend to have more patriotism re: the EU though. Even the warmth you'll hear most Germans have for the country while they complain about it isn't usually there when they talk about the EU. Most I know who are pro-EU seem to have a detached, rational view of the union, rather than the emotional attachment you see in patriotism. I've never really encountered an "EU patriot" tbh.
I'd say defending the homeland or speaking a banned ethnic language that you grew up in is incentive enough without the need for any labeling. You can defend against American imperialism without...
I'd say defending the homeland or speaking a banned ethnic language that you grew up in is incentive enough without the need for any labeling.
You can defend against American imperialism without having to self-identify as a patriot. As you said, it's a tool that can help save countries, but it's also a tool that destroys other countries (for ex., the soldiers that fight so their nation can oppress others, don't they often call themselves patriots too?).
The feeling was wanting to defend the homeland is patriotism. That's what's patriotism is. Patriotism derives from patria, literally the fatherland. Patriotism isn't the incentive, it's the name...
The feeling was wanting to defend the homeland is patriotism. That's what's patriotism is. Patriotism derives from patria, literally the fatherland. Patriotism isn't the incentive, it's the name for the things I've described.
Like all tools, it can be used to oppress. An American soldier executing an Iraqi civilian isn't actually defending his fatherland. His patriotism is being used to serve military and corporate interests, but he's not actually being a patriot. A member of the French Resistance providing information to De Gaulle about German activities in Paris is being a patriot, and is acting in defense of the patria (fatherland).
I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm trying to explain how patriotism is important to countries not currently hyperpowers.
I agree, sorry for misinterpreting your original meaning, Patriotism as a word... has been exploited (as you showed), and IMO it now has a negative connotation in its usage. It can help nations,...
I agree, sorry for misinterpreting your original meaning, Patriotism as a word... has been exploited (as you showed), and IMO it now has a negative connotation in its usage. It can help nations, but I do wish we moved on from country-centric language, as this sort of rhetoric has a chance of not going well.
I understand where you're coming from. It's just, we don't all have the luxury of being able to see beyond countries. The Czechs can, they're safe and cosy. The Canadians can, they have no threats...
I understand where you're coming from. It's just, we don't all have the luxury of being able to see beyond countries. The Czechs can, they're safe and cosy. The Canadians can, they have no threats to their border. The Americans can, they're all-powerful. The rest of us need to survive and resist, and patriotism is a powerful paradigm in which to frame and understand that resistance. It is difficult to explain to a people that language is important because it encodes your stories, collective memory, and keeps your place in the world. It is simpler to explain that to keep your language is patriotic. And you don't really have the time or capacity to wax philosophical about the history of your ethnic group when American (or Russian, or Chinese, or European) soldiers arrive.
It can absolutely be misused and twisted, and it often is. It's an appeal to emotion, and that can be used for anything a leader wants. But I don't know how to explain how powerful and important it is. When you've been conquered by the American empire, when you're second class citizens (if you're lucky), and you're told your culture is second class, your language is second class, your religion is second class, and if just become American (ie. abandon your own history), then everything would be easier.
Patriotism give everyone a framework for saying, no, fuck them. Our culture is just as valid, our language is just as valid, our religion is just as valid, and our country is just as valid.
You can say all of these things without feeling nationalistic. But then that's mostly confined to the elite, who have space to breathe. For everyone else, being a patriot is a good tool for keeping your nationality alive under occupation, or under pressure from a neighbour that wants to culturally gobble you up.
Well, for now... but if history teaches us anything, it is that this can pass quickly. I totally get what you were trying to say about patriotism and I agree with you 100%. However, I am hoping we...
The Czechs can, they're safe and cosy
Well, for now... but if history teaches us anything, it is that this can pass quickly. I totally get what you were trying to say about patriotism and I agree with you 100%.
However, I am hoping we will finally be able to switch from defending patria to defending principles. As a Czech, I feel the attack on Ukraine is an attack on my principles. Which is why I try to defend them - I don't have the balls to go to the Ukrainian Foreign Legion but I try to find little ways to help. Today it is Ukraine, tomorrow it could be us - we have to help each other despite the fact that this time it is someone else's patria.
I am not saying this to disagree with you - I think that patriotism is what gives people the balls to volunteer for the army and risk their life. I just think that the more we are able to stand for principles, the less we will need the double-edged sword of patriotism.
Yup, I don't disagree with you. It'd be nice to live in a world where patriotism wasn't essential. The attack on Ukraine is an attack on everyone who lives in a democratic country, whether we...
Yup, I don't disagree with you. It'd be nice to live in a world where patriotism wasn't essential. The attack on Ukraine is an attack on everyone who lives in a democratic country, whether we realise it or not. Obviously Europeans are more directly exposed, but Russia's goal is to destroy the post WW2 order, and small countries are (mostly) able to exist without large armies because of that order.
And haha, sorry for singling you out, I tried to pick a nice and cosy European country!
So said the Nazis before they took power. So said the Russians when they invaded Ukraine. It's a dangerous, terrible means of manipulating the population. You wouldn't need patriots rabid for the...
Patriotism is useful when you're actually under attack.
So said the Nazis before they took power. So said the Russians when they invaded Ukraine.
It's a dangerous, terrible means of manipulating the population. You wouldn't need patriots rabid for the defensive cause if it weren't for the patriots smashing down the gates.
Patriotism isn't one sided, they've already shown that. It has good and bad effects, but you've decided to ignore what they said and just restate your opinion anyways.
Patriotism isn't one sided, they've already shown that. It has good and bad effects, but you've decided to ignore what they said and just restate your opinion anyways.
Indeed. Yet they used nationalist rhetoric to rile up supporters. The entire prelude to WWII depended on pushing an idea of a shadowy conspiracy of "others," foreign and domestic, who sabotaged...
Indeed. Yet they used nationalist rhetoric to rile up supporters. The entire prelude to WWII depended on pushing an idea of a shadowy conspiracy of "others," foreign and domestic, who sabotaged the war effort from WWI and crippled the economy. Their way of life was under attack, they said. They called for people to fight for the fatherland, to support and commit violence for the arbitrary rock they were born on. And people did. Straight across several other countries, and straight to building death camps for the "others."
People in Weimar Germany didn't wake up and go "you know what, I feel like doing some great evils today." They participated in nationalism, and it escalated and lead to the inevitable conclusion: that some people are "better" than others, and it's okay to kill then and take from them.
And the same shit is being used again, in different forms, all over the world. Maybe it hasn't reached the same horrific scale, but I'm sure Ukraine and Iraq don't particularly care about measuring the scope. Nor do the LGBT and Latin people nervous about all of the othering going on.
Latin people are extremely patriotic. We've had to be, given American meddling in (or the outright conquest of) our patrias. Ukrainians are extremely patriotic. Have you not heard Slava Ukraini...
Latin people are extremely patriotic. We've had to be, given American meddling in (or the outright conquest of) our patrias. Ukrainians are extremely patriotic. Have you not heard Slava Ukraini (Glory to Ukraine)? The expats returned, en masse, to defend the patria. They didn't go to Syria or Burma, since all human are equal and equally need help. No, they went to Ukraine, their patria, because they're patriots.
This isn't about reaching horrific scales; for every country not already incredibly comfortable it its defenses, stability and wellbeing, patriotism is an incredibly important tool in fighting off the proverbial conqueror. Looking beyond nationalism is a luxury of citizens in countries that aren't worried about the dangers of the world. Most of us don't have that luxury.
German and Russian xenophobia was ridiculous because they were already world powers. Cuban nationalism isn't, because they've needed some way of psychologically surviving a half century embargo.
Benevolent patriotism is useful to grow your own country because there's a powerful benefit to national unity. If your citizenry wants to collectively improve you will see far better or faster...
Benevolent patriotism is useful to grow your own country because there's a powerful benefit to national unity. If your citizenry wants to collectively improve you will see far better or faster benefits if it's supported by a healthy dose of patriotism.
Wars are often a means to bolster patriotism but the opposite is also true, patriotism can be used to generate support for war.
Ultimately it's down to the type and level of patriotism, not patriotism itself. Unfortunately you see that even healthy levels of patriotism get warped and used in politics and in addition have a good chance to turn to nationalism.
I personally lean more towards your standpoint, but I do recognise its usefulness.
Well, first of all, 70-80% of Russians claim to support the war. You could argue that the real number is at least a little lower and that they're afraid to speak out. I wouldn't disagree with that...
Well, first of all, 70-80% of Russians claim to support the war. You could argue that the real number is at least a little lower and that they're afraid to speak out. I wouldn't disagree with that hypothesis. But that's still pretty high.
I realize we had different experiences with the War in the Middle East. That's okay. I can only share with you what I experienced. After 9/11, people were sad and then enraged. My local diner had a sign hanging up that showed the twin towers and said "The Eagle is Pissed." I remember a lot of people talking about how we would bomb the Muslims out of their little mud huts. I remember people saying "Just fuckin' nuke em." I remember the old-school Democrats and Republicans uniting on this one thing. And I remember very progressive liberals and the more anti-government conservatives uniting on the fact that we shouldn't have been fighting that war.
Anyway, I think your tone and accusations are totally unnecessary. I will assume you were using hyperbole when you accused me of being an FSB plant because I think the tone and anti-Putin message I shared in my comment would make it clear that is not the case.
If you want to debate people in this manner you might find a better home on Reddit.
The fact that someone accused you of being an FSB plant for mentioning how ludicrous it is to expect citizens of a militarized dictatorship to be proactively anti-government during wartime is......
The fact that someone accused you of being an FSB plant for mentioning how ludicrous it is to expect citizens of a militarized dictatorship to be proactively anti-government during wartime is... sad.
I'll be honest, the average American still doesn't know much about the war other than 9/11 and 'we needed revenge against the brown people'. No one talked about how these groups were paid and trained by us for decades prior, and how their leader was someone we once celebrated on the news. Even going through an urban yet poor public school education, everything I knew regarding the involvement in the Middle East (Latin/South America, etc) was just generic textbook propaganda. It was college that really opened my eyes and encouraged me to think critically.
I do hold Russians accountable for the actions of their nation, but it's not right to say they're worse than us because Russia is an actual dictatorship where you get 'disappeared' for speaking out. We are a [supposed] democracy yet we couldn't stop our own imperialistic warmongering.
I mean, what if I argue that the real number is a whole hell of a lot lower and that they're afraid to speak out? I expect most of them are either apathetic or opposed, and just aren't willing to...
I mean, what if I argue that the real number is a whole hell of a lot lower and that they're afraid to speak out?
I expect most of them are either apathetic or opposed, and just aren't willing to take the remotest risk of accidentally being caught with anything other than the government approved opinion and losing everything.
Agreed. @HeroesJourneyMadness, you can vehemently disagree with someone's ideas or offer your own perspective to balance theirs—after all, reality has many facets and dimensions to it, and...
If you want to debate people in this manner you might find a better home on Reddit.
Agreed. @HeroesJourneyMadness, you can vehemently disagree with someone's ideas or offer your own perspective to balance theirs—after all, reality has many facets and dimensions to it, and multiple perspectives can be simultaneously true to different extents—but it's inappropriate, rude, and un-Tildes-like to attack someone's very person in this manner.
A really good (or ex really good) friend of mine married a Russian woman 10 years ago. Most anti-Putin, anti-Trump guy I've ever met About a year before the war they moved from NY to St....
A really good (or ex really good) friend of mine married a Russian woman 10 years ago. Most anti-Putin, anti-Trump guy I've ever met
About a year before the war they moved from NY to St. Petersburg. Saw him a few times and nothing too unusual and he still held the same views.
A few months into the Ukraine war I can hardly recognize the guy, my old friend. The propaganda is so heavy and so constant, to him and his wife Ukraine is the most corrupt country on earth second only to any nation that's a part of NATO. The deaths of innocent people that once upset him on the whole makes him happy as long as they are Ukrainian.
Propaganda is so fucking scary and dangerous, and at this point I just wish I could have my friend bacj
I think there's a good argument said here about people being terrified, or broadly supporting the war. I do want to share my thoughts on a point not being discussed. Russians are fond of saying...
I think there's a good argument said here about people being terrified, or broadly supporting the war. I do want to share my thoughts on a point not being discussed.
Russians are fond of saying that they, Ukranians and Belarusians are brothers. Sometimes even the same people. This argument is one of their justificationa for the war. When Yanukovych went against the will of the people and abandoned European integration, Ukraine took to the streets in a way not seem before. Then when he turned his guns in his citizens, they toppled him. They did not stand around taking pictures of people getting tortured by the security forces. They got bands together and started running battles with the police. And they were tortured, those protesters were stripped naked to stand in the Kyivan winter. It didn't make Ukrainians depressed, it made them angry, and police that treated protesters like this could be expected to be pelted with rocks and abuse.
And it's not like every fight works. Belarus tried too, tried like hell, to topple Lukashenko. He stayed on (because Putin helped), but even to this day, Belarusian partisan activity is crucial. It's one of the reasons Kyiv didn't fall.
What's happened with Russians? There are small protests, snuffed out quick. When someone getting beat up by the cops, there's a crows of onlookers taking pictures, being outraged. No one does anything. And it's not like there's no attacks on Russian authorities, there are! Attacks against recruitment centres, because the draft personally affected them. No solidarity with fellow citizens, let alone the people they've said we're there brothers.
I'm not casting judgment on individuals. God knows I don't want to die in a torture cell. But there's something fundamentally culturally different between Russia and the nations it sees as "brotherly".
The Russian people's ability to believe anything or trust their own eyes has been completely broken. That is the common refrain; "No one can really know what the truth is really, so why care?"...
The Russian people's ability to believe anything or trust their own eyes has been completely broken. That is the common refrain; "No one can really know what the truth is really, so why care?" It's a sort of insidious mixture of apathy and persistent doubt that keeps Russians frozen and docile.
It's the same strain of propaganda you see being wormed into American discourse, the "post truth era" brought about by Trump, where opinions are on the same level as facts. Not some great coincidence.
An old friend of mine lives in Moscow and it took them almost a year before they even felt safe emailing on the topic. They are afraid. They won't even talk to friends who they knows feel the same (aka, anti-war, anti-Putin), in case someone hears or one of them have been co-opted by the security services.
There's a Soviet-era joke about not walking down the street with a blank piece of paper in case you get arrested for what you might write on it. It's a very Russian "joke" and it is apparently feeling true again these days.
It's all so desperately sad. I was hoping to go one day to visit my friend and see some of Moscow but that doesn't look likely any time soon.
The joke you're talking about is reality.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-protests-police-arrest-activists-holding-blank-signs-paper-1687603
This was over a year ago. I can imagine the aggression from the Russian police has only increased since then.
Man was literally arrested for this just last year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbzV1it1YPY
Reminds me of the lady in a YouTube video that was arrested for asking to the camera, intentionally, if they arrested anyone that holds an opinion on the situation? Without stating an opinion to begin with. Then the men dressed in black outfits came in from the side and dragged her away.
Someone literally was arrested right after the start of the war for holding up a blank piece of paper during a protest
Frankly, I'd never mention it on anything but Signal etc. if I lived there now. Possibly not at all during Soviet or Tsarist times. It's sad this oppressiveness just won't go away despite constant turmoil...
They don't have to protest against the war. They can just walk out with this blank paper. They won't ve prosecuted because of antiwar or antirussian slogans, because there will be no slogans. They will be prosecuted for some minor things. Nobody did that en masse. This makes me feel that not only Russians are afraid, but also the war isn't a big concern for them.
hahahahahaha. You think the Russian government cares about if all they have is a suspicion or think that the courts are not going to just do what the government wants them to. Several people already posted they have already arrested people for holding blank pieces of paper.
My very limited understanding leads me to believe 3 things:
Many, if not most, Russians aren't against this war. At the very least, they're indifferent to it. I'm an American and I can easily remember how many of our citizens were in favor of the war in the Middle East, or at least didn't care or pay attention to it. Especially if you go back to the very early 2000s - people were frothing at the mouth for that war. Only liberals and academics were against it. It was probably 10-15 years before I started hearing average Joes say they were sick of it.
Russia's population has been oppressed for a very, very long time. I have seen many interviews with Russians and many of them share a common sentiment. They'll often say something like, "It is the way it is. Nothing anyone can do about it." I don't think the average Russian has any concept of what it would be like to have freedom of speech or the freedom for average people to become active in politics. Granted, I think America is slowly drifting away from this too as our population becomes more apathetic toward the corporatocracy that beats us down. But we still have more of a fighting spirit toward government failures and injustices overall...for now.
Just my two-cents.
This is the key why religions, cults and despots get power. Some people find day to day life just SO much easier when they can just do what they're told and don't need to stress or worry about any of the big stuff.
I'd also add total control of the flow of information. Early in the war, the Russian government eliminated the scant few media outlets that could even remotely resemble anything approaching opposition to the war. Now they have an Overton Window that presents a range of acceptable opinions generally between "I support the war" and "I support expanding the war".
Likewise, social media is tightly controlled. Over 600k websites were blocked after the invasion, and the Internet is closely monitored for content the Russian government opposes:
I was fairly young at the time, but it solidified my ideology: why the fuck would anyone want to be "patriotic?" Nationalism is vile and leads to fascism and mass murder. I'm interested in what other cultures have to offer, not pretending the one I was born into is better than it is. I want the world to be a better place, not just a subset full of people who I already know annoy me with their small-mindedness.
I am a citizen of the world. It was good enough for Diogenes.
Patriotism is useful when you're actually under attack. It might feel foreign to you because the US is a hyperpower, but patriotism is what kept Ukranians from mass dodging the draft, and is what make millions of Ukranian expats to return to their homeland to fight off the Russians. Patriotism is one of the tools we Puerto Ricans have to defend our culture from the American conquest, and patriotism is what kept Spanish alive when the Americans banned it from schools.
Being a citizen of the world is a privilege of someone who knows they have a country to go back to, that their culture will be safe, that their loved ones are well.
I think the reverse is also true -- being under attack (or perceiving oneself to be) is very useful to stoke the fires of patriotism. This is part of why fascist regimes must always have an enemy, and they'll manufacture one if they don't. It's sort of a double-edged sword in that way, I think.
Absolutely, it can be twisted and used. I just want to make clear that being able to see yourself as a world citizen is a privilege you can only indulge in when your home and family are safe. For the vast majority of the world, being a patriot is considered a good thing, because it's a feeling that helps you defend your community from actual, real attacks.
I live in Germany, so suffice it to say my experience is not in countries where that's the case lol
Yup, every country will have different experiences. European countries will have different experiences with resisting colonisation, since they were often the ones doing the colonising.
That said, I do find Germans are patriots. Just not about Germany, but about the EU.
I have not generally found that to be the case, but it varies a fair bit within Germany on that front I'd day. It's less that they don't have patriotism and more that a lot of the ways if traditionally expressing patriotism are not really done here imo. Like, if someone hangs a German flag outside their house they're almost definitely far right (at best).
Germany's experience with nationalism and patriotism is so unique that I'm not sure how to even untangle it. It's certainly there. It is politically easier in Germany to give funds to Bavaria than to Greece, so it's not like Germans are more enlightened about the equality of humanity or anything.
I think you're on the right track that Germany has a different relationship with the traditional ways of expressing patriotism, but I'm too ignorant of the country to say what alternatives Germans use.
My personal experience is that some of those traditional ways have been emotionally moved up to the EU, but I don't know how common this is.
I generally find the Germans who are the most patriotic tend to be the most anti-EU (and also most racist, etc.) Germans do definitely still have a love for their country, but the trappings of patriotism are simply too strongly associated with really awful racist people here. The fact that many current and former symbols of the country are often repurposed by neonazis to skirt laws against nazi symbols doesn't help matters.
I don't think Germans really tend to have more patriotism re: the EU though. Even the warmth you'll hear most Germans have for the country while they complain about it isn't usually there when they talk about the EU. Most I know who are pro-EU seem to have a detached, rational view of the union, rather than the emotional attachment you see in patriotism. I've never really encountered an "EU patriot" tbh.
I'd say defending the homeland or speaking a banned ethnic language that you grew up in is incentive enough without the need for any labeling.
You can defend against American imperialism without having to self-identify as a patriot. As you said, it's a tool that can help save countries, but it's also a tool that destroys other countries (for ex., the soldiers that fight so their nation can oppress others, don't they often call themselves patriots too?).
The feeling was wanting to defend the homeland is patriotism. That's what's patriotism is. Patriotism derives from patria, literally the fatherland. Patriotism isn't the incentive, it's the name for the things I've described.
Like all tools, it can be used to oppress. An American soldier executing an Iraqi civilian isn't actually defending his fatherland. His patriotism is being used to serve military and corporate interests, but he's not actually being a patriot. A member of the French Resistance providing information to De Gaulle about German activities in Paris is being a patriot, and is acting in defense of the patria (fatherland).
I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm trying to explain how patriotism is important to countries not currently hyperpowers.
I agree, sorry for misinterpreting your original meaning, Patriotism as a word... has been exploited (as you showed), and IMO it now has a negative connotation in its usage. It can help nations, but I do wish we moved on from country-centric language, as this sort of rhetoric has a chance of not going well.
I understand where you're coming from. It's just, we don't all have the luxury of being able to see beyond countries. The Czechs can, they're safe and cosy. The Canadians can, they have no threats to their border. The Americans can, they're all-powerful. The rest of us need to survive and resist, and patriotism is a powerful paradigm in which to frame and understand that resistance. It is difficult to explain to a people that language is important because it encodes your stories, collective memory, and keeps your place in the world. It is simpler to explain that to keep your language is patriotic. And you don't really have the time or capacity to wax philosophical about the history of your ethnic group when American (or Russian, or Chinese, or European) soldiers arrive.
It can absolutely be misused and twisted, and it often is. It's an appeal to emotion, and that can be used for anything a leader wants. But I don't know how to explain how powerful and important it is. When you've been conquered by the American empire, when you're second class citizens (if you're lucky), and you're told your culture is second class, your language is second class, your religion is second class, and if just become American (ie. abandon your own history), then everything would be easier.
Patriotism give everyone a framework for saying, no, fuck them. Our culture is just as valid, our language is just as valid, our religion is just as valid, and our country is just as valid.
You can say all of these things without feeling nationalistic. But then that's mostly confined to the elite, who have space to breathe. For everyone else, being a patriot is a good tool for keeping your nationality alive under occupation, or under pressure from a neighbour that wants to culturally gobble you up.
Well, for now... but if history teaches us anything, it is that this can pass quickly. I totally get what you were trying to say about patriotism and I agree with you 100%.
However, I am hoping we will finally be able to switch from defending patria to defending principles. As a Czech, I feel the attack on Ukraine is an attack on my principles. Which is why I try to defend them - I don't have the balls to go to the Ukrainian Foreign Legion but I try to find little ways to help. Today it is Ukraine, tomorrow it could be us - we have to help each other despite the fact that this time it is someone else's patria.
I am not saying this to disagree with you - I think that patriotism is what gives people the balls to volunteer for the army and risk their life. I just think that the more we are able to stand for principles, the less we will need the double-edged sword of patriotism.
Yup, I don't disagree with you. It'd be nice to live in a world where patriotism wasn't essential. The attack on Ukraine is an attack on everyone who lives in a democratic country, whether we realise it or not. Obviously Europeans are more directly exposed, but Russia's goal is to destroy the post WW2 order, and small countries are (mostly) able to exist without large armies because of that order.
And haha, sorry for singling you out, I tried to pick a nice and cosy European country!
So said the Nazis before they took power. So said the Russians when they invaded Ukraine.
It's a dangerous, terrible means of manipulating the population. You wouldn't need patriots rabid for the defensive cause if it weren't for the patriots smashing down the gates.
Patriotism isn't one sided, they've already shown that. It has good and bad effects, but you've decided to ignore what they said and just restate your opinion anyways.
Neither Russia nor Germany were under attack.
Indeed. Yet they used nationalist rhetoric to rile up supporters. The entire prelude to WWII depended on pushing an idea of a shadowy conspiracy of "others," foreign and domestic, who sabotaged the war effort from WWI and crippled the economy. Their way of life was under attack, they said. They called for people to fight for the fatherland, to support and commit violence for the arbitrary rock they were born on. And people did. Straight across several other countries, and straight to building death camps for the "others."
People in Weimar Germany didn't wake up and go "you know what, I feel like doing some great evils today." They participated in nationalism, and it escalated and lead to the inevitable conclusion: that some people are "better" than others, and it's okay to kill then and take from them.
And the same shit is being used again, in different forms, all over the world. Maybe it hasn't reached the same horrific scale, but I'm sure Ukraine and Iraq don't particularly care about measuring the scope. Nor do the LGBT and Latin people nervous about all of the othering going on.
Latin people are extremely patriotic. We've had to be, given American meddling in (or the outright conquest of) our patrias. Ukrainians are extremely patriotic. Have you not heard Slava Ukraini (Glory to Ukraine)? The expats returned, en masse, to defend the patria. They didn't go to Syria or Burma, since all human are equal and equally need help. No, they went to Ukraine, their patria, because they're patriots.
This isn't about reaching horrific scales; for every country not already incredibly comfortable it its defenses, stability and wellbeing, patriotism is an incredibly important tool in fighting off the proverbial conqueror. Looking beyond nationalism is a luxury of citizens in countries that aren't worried about the dangers of the world. Most of us don't have that luxury.
German and Russian xenophobia was ridiculous because they were already world powers. Cuban nationalism isn't, because they've needed some way of psychologically surviving a half century embargo.
Benevolent patriotism is useful to grow your own country because there's a powerful benefit to national unity. If your citizenry wants to collectively improve you will see far better or faster benefits if it's supported by a healthy dose of patriotism.
Wars are often a means to bolster patriotism but the opposite is also true, patriotism can be used to generate support for war.
Ultimately it's down to the type and level of patriotism, not patriotism itself. Unfortunately you see that even healthy levels of patriotism get warped and used in politics and in addition have a good chance to turn to nationalism.
I personally lean more towards your standpoint, but I do recognise its usefulness.
Well, a lot of people say that's what patriotism is. Obviously not all of them.
Well, first of all, 70-80% of Russians claim to support the war. You could argue that the real number is at least a little lower and that they're afraid to speak out. I wouldn't disagree with that hypothesis. But that's still pretty high.
I realize we had different experiences with the War in the Middle East. That's okay. I can only share with you what I experienced. After 9/11, people were sad and then enraged. My local diner had a sign hanging up that showed the twin towers and said "The Eagle is Pissed." I remember a lot of people talking about how we would bomb the Muslims out of their little mud huts. I remember people saying "Just fuckin' nuke em." I remember the old-school Democrats and Republicans uniting on this one thing. And I remember very progressive liberals and the more anti-government conservatives uniting on the fact that we shouldn't have been fighting that war.
Anyway, I think your tone and accusations are totally unnecessary. I will assume you were using hyperbole when you accused me of being an FSB plant because I think the tone and anti-Putin message I shared in my comment would make it clear that is not the case.
If you want to debate people in this manner you might find a better home on Reddit.
The fact that someone accused you of being an FSB plant for mentioning how ludicrous it is to expect citizens of a militarized dictatorship to be proactively anti-government during wartime is... sad.
I'll be honest, the average American still doesn't know much about the war other than 9/11 and 'we needed revenge against the brown people'. No one talked about how these groups were paid and trained by us for decades prior, and how their leader was someone we once celebrated on the news. Even going through an urban yet poor public school education, everything I knew regarding the involvement in the Middle East (Latin/South America, etc) was just generic textbook propaganda. It was college that really opened my eyes and encouraged me to think critically.
I do hold Russians accountable for the actions of their nation, but it's not right to say they're worse than us because Russia is an actual dictatorship where you get 'disappeared' for speaking out. We are a [supposed] democracy yet we couldn't stop our own imperialistic warmongering.
I mean, what if I argue that the real number is a whole hell of a lot lower and that they're afraid to speak out?
I expect most of them are either apathetic or opposed, and just aren't willing to take the remotest risk of accidentally being caught with anything other than the government approved opinion and losing everything.
Agreed. @HeroesJourneyMadness, you can vehemently disagree with someone's ideas or offer your own perspective to balance theirs—after all, reality has many facets and dimensions to it, and multiple perspectives can be simultaneously true to different extents—but it's inappropriate, rude, and un-Tildes-like to attack someone's very person in this manner.
A really good (or ex really good) friend of mine married a Russian woman 10 years ago. Most anti-Putin, anti-Trump guy I've ever met
About a year before the war they moved from NY to St. Petersburg. Saw him a few times and nothing too unusual and he still held the same views.
A few months into the Ukraine war I can hardly recognize the guy, my old friend. The propaganda is so heavy and so constant, to him and his wife Ukraine is the most corrupt country on earth second only to any nation that's a part of NATO. The deaths of innocent people that once upset him on the whole makes him happy as long as they are Ukrainian.
Propaganda is so fucking scary and dangerous, and at this point I just wish I could have my friend bacj
I think there's a good argument said here about people being terrified, or broadly supporting the war. I do want to share my thoughts on a point not being discussed.
Russians are fond of saying that they, Ukranians and Belarusians are brothers. Sometimes even the same people. This argument is one of their justificationa for the war. When Yanukovych went against the will of the people and abandoned European integration, Ukraine took to the streets in a way not seem before. Then when he turned his guns in his citizens, they toppled him. They did not stand around taking pictures of people getting tortured by the security forces. They got bands together and started running battles with the police. And they were tortured, those protesters were stripped naked to stand in the Kyivan winter. It didn't make Ukrainians depressed, it made them angry, and police that treated protesters like this could be expected to be pelted with rocks and abuse.
And it's not like every fight works. Belarus tried too, tried like hell, to topple Lukashenko. He stayed on (because Putin helped), but even to this day, Belarusian partisan activity is crucial. It's one of the reasons Kyiv didn't fall.
What's happened with Russians? There are small protests, snuffed out quick. When someone getting beat up by the cops, there's a crows of onlookers taking pictures, being outraged. No one does anything. And it's not like there's no attacks on Russian authorities, there are! Attacks against recruitment centres, because the draft personally affected them. No solidarity with fellow citizens, let alone the people they've said we're there brothers.
I'm not casting judgment on individuals. God knows I don't want to die in a torture cell. But there's something fundamentally culturally different between Russia and the nations it sees as "brotherly".
There were a fair few Russians on TikTok protesting against the war. And then they were gone.
There were protests when it first started. Followed by mass arrests. I remember seeing clips of it all over when the war first started.
The Russian people's ability to believe anything or trust their own eyes has been completely broken. That is the common refrain; "No one can really know what the truth is really, so why care?" It's a sort of insidious mixture of apathy and persistent doubt that keeps Russians frozen and docile.
It's the same strain of propaganda you see being wormed into American discourse, the "post truth era" brought about by Trump, where opinions are on the same level as facts. Not some great coincidence.
This joke pretty much sums it up:
Hows life in Russia?
Cant complain.
I asked my Russian friend how life was in Russia right now.
He said, "can't complain".