To say that I'm excited about this is a understatement, we are in full celebration here at work today. I wake up at 5:30AM and start work at 7AM, so no matter if we stayed on Standard Time or...
To say that I'm excited about this is a understatement, we are in full celebration here at work today. I wake up at 5:30AM and start work at 7AM, so no matter if we stayed on Standard Time or Daylight Savings Time I'm commuting and starting work in the pitch black in the winter. It will be extremely nice to get that extra hour of light after work so that I am not also arriving home in the pitch black. It would also have been rough (if we went the other way with the change) seeing it start getting light at 3AM in the summer, having it be already hot out by 7AM on the worst days. I've been dreaming of this for years and finally someone got sick of waiting on the US who can't even accomplish simple things anymore.
It cannot be overstated how nice it is to not have to deal with this haha. I briefly lived in the Phoenix metro area where they have permanent standard time. I went through two time changes while...
It cannot be overstated how nice it is to not have to deal with this haha. I briefly lived in the Phoenix metro area where they have permanent standard time. I went through two time changes while I was there and I felt smug while everyone else had to adjust and complain for a while. It's a small thing but the small pleasures in life make life worth living.
I have been swayed by science (I am in a discord server with someone who has worked on it) that permanent standard time is the right move for the US and also I just want folks to care less about a...
I have been swayed by science (I am in a discord server with someone who has worked on it) that permanent standard time is the right move for the US and also I just want folks to care less about a clock and adjust to the time of year more as they need.
China tried, but in practice people still use timezones. The issue with universal UTC is that it's not actually useful when people talk to other people. Our lives are anchored by the rising and...
China tried, but in practice people still use timezones.
The issue with universal UTC is that it's not actually useful when people talk to other people. Our lives are anchored by the rising and setting of the sun. Think about phrases like "9 to 5".
When someone says they wake up at 6am, that means, to everyone everywhere in the world, they're an early riser. Imagine now if everyone was at UTC time.
"I wake up at 11:00". What does this mean? Is it early? Is it late? I can't even interpret it without... calculating the time zone!
hm. ok yeah -- I am unsold on the previous idea. Also, we can't have Dolly redo the track to be Workin the 17 to 1 either. It also makes sense for everybody to align with a sundial
hm. ok yeah -- I am unsold on the previous idea. Also, we can't have Dolly redo the track to be Workin the 17 to 1 either.
It also makes sense for everybody to align with a sundial
Something I've always wondered about that song: did Dolly not get a lunch break? I've never had an employer roll my lunch break into my shift like that, but maybe that's just peculiar to my...
Something I've always wondered about that song: did Dolly not get a lunch break? I've never had an employer roll my lunch break into my shift like that, but maybe that's just peculiar to my state's asinine labor laws.
Obligatory link to So you want to abolish timezones, which goes through all the reasons this is a bad idea. Daylight Savings has much less utility than timezones do (though stu covered the gist...
Obligatory link to So you want to abolish timezones, which goes through all the reasons this is a bad idea. Daylight Savings has much less utility than timezones do (though stu covered the gist fairly pithily already)
I never understood the trauma around daylight savings. The clock changes, you lose a little bit of sleep for one night of the year then gain a little bit of sleep for one night of the year. It...
I never understood the trauma around daylight savings. The clock changes, you lose a little bit of sleep for one night of the year then gain a little bit of sleep for one night of the year. It seems pretty helpful when you live far from the equator.
SAVE STANDARD TIME This website breaks it down into a bunch of categories, if it doesn't bother your sleep, it may impact your safety, or your doctor's alertness, etc. But as I said I was swayed...
I've always been a fan of the idea of permanent standard time. If people prefer getting home earlier in the solar day they should just negotiate that work schedule with their employer, rather than...
I've always been a fan of the idea of permanent standard time. If people prefer getting home earlier in the solar day they should just negotiate that work schedule with their employer, rather than forcing everybody else to be offset from the solar day.
(I have an extremely late schedule, in part due to working with americans, so this is actually to my own disadvantage.)
For some places it's definiteky needed (I remember someone talked about a study confirming how necessary it is for Sweden or Iceland or one of those very-northern country), but the adjustment...
For some places it's definiteky needed (I remember someone talked about a study confirming how necessary it is for Sweden or Iceland or one of those very-northern country), but the adjustment isn't always easy. And honestly, it doesn't feel particularly necessary in many places anymore. It priorities an earlier sunrise and, as many have noted, the current setup can leave people in more darkness throughout the day if their schedules start early. A lot of people would prefer to have a dark morning commute and then enjoy some sunlight in the afternoon/evening when they're not on a tight schedule.
Chicago is particularly bad in my opinion since they get sunset as early as 4 PM in winter. I always think of a story from my former vice principal about asking a student why he didn't complete his homework. The kid's family lived in a car so their main light source was a flashlight, so when it ran out of battery he couldn't see his homework and thus couldn't do it. Thinking of that kid being in darkness at 4—the time I would usually start my homework after taking half an hour to play and unwind—just sticks out in my mind as overly depressing. No wonder seasonal depression is such a big problem...
Yep, where I live in the UK, and honestly not even that far north, at the height of winter the sun rises at ~8:30 and sets around 3:40. For anyone working a 8-4 (surprisingly common in my social...
Yep, where I live in the UK, and honestly not even that far north, at the height of winter the sun rises at ~8:30 and sets around 3:40. For anyone working a 8-4 (surprisingly common in my social circle), they simply spend their entire day in darkness, waking up in the dark, and travelling in the dark on both ends. Even for people on the more traditional 9-5, almost all will have to wake up in the dark, and most will still be traveling at least in part in the dark.
I always think we should prioritise a later sunset because almost everyone is awake from 5-6pm, especially on weekends, while fewer people are awake from say, 7-8am.
I'm actually surprised the overwhelming opinion here is so much in favour of this change. I'm a big daylight savings fan personally, but I understand the arguments against it. But I thought it was...
I'm actually surprised the overwhelming opinion here is so much in favour of this change. I'm a big daylight savings fan personally, but I understand the arguments against it. But I thought it was pretty widely accepted that permanent daylight saving time was the worst of the three options?
I'm really interested to see how this works out for BC people over the next few years.
This will be the last year clocks spring forward after the B.C. government announced Monday it was making daylight time permanent.
Article content
The change will take effect on Sunday, when clocks move ahead an hour. Permanent daylight time will mean that the typical falling back of clocks by an hour in November will not take place.
This is great news! The only thing that's a little concerning is if I get too close to the border I often pick up US cell towers, and I worry that my clock will jump back and forth. Washington,...
This is great news! The only thing that's a little concerning is if I get too close to the border I often pick up US cell towers, and I worry that my clock will jump back and forth.
Washington, Oregon, and California, if you're reading this you're welcome to join us, presuming you ever get a functional Congress again.
If your device timezone/region are set correctly, it shouldn't matter whether it's getting timing data from the US or Canada. IIRC "absolute" time is generally synced as UTC, then converted to the...
If your device timezone/region are set correctly, it shouldn't matter whether it's getting timing data from the US or Canada. IIRC "absolute" time is generally synced as UTC, then converted to the appropriate local time zone. The tzdata DBs have all the rules for which areas have what offsets, as well as when and how each zone adjusts (or doesn't) for DST.
Yeah I guess the only reason I have "Set time automatically" is for DST. I guess I can just remind myself to change the time if I visit Alberta. I'm definitely not visiting Washington any time...
Yeah I guess the only reason I have "Set time automatically" is for DST. I guess I can just remind myself to change the time if I visit Alberta. I'm definitely not visiting Washington any time soon.
I do know that with the default settings my clock automatically gets changed once I get to the Kootenays, so I assume the same thing would happen close to the US border. (for half the year, anyway)
Yep. Indiana used to opt out. Used to. I will forever question why they decided to opt in, I was too young when the change happened to pay attention to the political talk and reasoning. The only...
Yep. Indiana used to opt out. Used to. I will forever question why they decided to opt in, I was too young when the change happened to pay attention to the political talk and reasoning. The only reason I really remember the change is because shows would air an hour earlier for part of the year.
Yeah, I remember the good times when Indy was smart about time. Can't stand that they changed. Then again, this is the state that nearly declared Pi to be equal to 3.2 legally.
This is the first time I've heard of this, and I am just so relieved it's from 1897. So mildly less crazy since that time period was kinda weird when it came to science. Just an old example of...
This is the first time I've heard of this, and I am just so relieved it's from 1897. So mildly less crazy since that time period was kinda weird when it came to science. Just an old example of politicians trying to legislate a topic they know literally nothing about (and also the power of idiots with strong charisma).
Upon its introduction in the Indiana House of Representatives, the bill's language and topic caused confusion; a member proposed that it be referred to the Finance Committee, but the Speaker accepted another member's recommendation to refer the bill to the Committee on Swamplands, where the bill could "find a deserved grave".
Probably my favorite part. Too bad they didn't bury it in the swamplands and transferred it to Education, which somehow did pass it. Also:
It had been nearly passed, but opinion changed when one senator observed that the General Assembly lacked the power to define mathematical truth.[10] Influencing some of the senators was a report that major newspapers, such as the Chicago Tribune, were ridiculing the situation.[7]
I wish more modern politicians could think like that rather than assume they have all the power in the world... Maybe we need to bring back public ridicule of dumb political decisions. Not angry criticism and arguments, just mocking them for being so stupid and oblivious.
Problem is, states aren't allowed to go to year-round DST, only to standard time, without Congressional legislation. It would also require a Congressional act to just move a state one time zone...
Problem is, states aren't allowed to go to year-round DST, only to standard time, without Congressional legislation. It would also require a Congressional act to just move a state one time zone ahead to their standard time, which would be functionally equivalent to permanent DST in their current timezone.
IIRC we passed state level law to go to permanent DST in my state a few years back, but they were clear that it would also require federal action to allow the option before it could go into effect.
I truly hope we can get the option, as permanent standard time would be awful with sunrises before 5AM in summer on top of the 4PM winter sunsets.
I wonder if you can work around it by just changing when you go into and out of DST. It’s not permanent DST. We could go to standard time at 10:00 on New Year’s Eve, and back to DST at 10:01 on...
I wonder if you can work around it by just changing when you go into and out of DST.
It’s not permanent DST. We could go to standard time at 10:00 on New Year’s Eve, and back to DST at 10:01 on New Year’s Eve.
not sure why it's a problem to switch to year-round standard time rather than year-round summer time tbh. It's probably the better choice to use year-round for most states anyway. people just vote...
not sure why it's a problem to switch to year-round standard time rather than year-round summer time tbh. It's probably the better choice to use year-round for most states anyway. people just vote for permanent DST instead of the other way around because they have more positive associations with summer, I think. But then my state is on the western edge of its timezone, so it would be particularly silly to do permanent DST rather than permanent standard time.
Again, I do not want 4am sunrises in summer (as someone else mentioned, this would also result in the heat of the day hitting earlier in the morning too) and would like some more "afternoon"...
Again, I do not want 4am sunrises in summer (as someone else mentioned, this would also result in the heat of the day hitting earlier in the morning too) and would like some more "afternoon" sunlight in the depths of winter where it is easy to both go to work and come home from it in the dark. Yes, it's a trick of the clock, but 4pm sunsets, at least for me, exacerbate already existing seasonal depression problems.
I'm in a city that sits on the longitudinal reference point for our time zone, so we're smack in the middle. I've also lived on the western edge of a time zone before (albeit noticeably farther north than my current location), and even there, I would have much preferred year round DST/moving a time zone ahead. Especially there, since winter sunsets were closer to 3pm and summer sunrises would hit around 4am with DST.
Your latitude must be significantly higher than the continental US to be getting the sunset and sunrise times you reference -- 4pm sunsets are about as bad as it gets in the height of winter where...
Your latitude must be significantly higher than the continental US to be getting the sunset and sunrise times you reference -- 4pm sunsets are about as bad as it gets in the height of winter where I currently live (and they do indeed make seasonal depression significantly worse), and my latitude is significantly further north than any US state that isn't Alaska.
My understanding is that the science has shown that permanent standard time works better for the majority of people than permanent DST, at least in the context of the continental US, but I haven't directly done much research into it. Someone else already linked a website that displays a bunch of the relevant data in this topic, I believe, and the summary there said that permanent DST would result in sunrise later than 8am for more than 3 months for considerable portions of the year and sunrise after 8:45 for short periods in many places.
I don't live there now, but I've lived close to the Canadian border before (in Havre, Montana), and the sun sets before 5PM every day in December. Looking at December 10th there, sunrise is at...
I don't live there now, but I've lived close to the Canadian border before (in Havre, Montana), and the sun sets before 5PM every day in December. Looking at December 10th there, sunrise is at 8:00am and sunset is at 4:23pm. Even down in Bozeman where I went to college (which is on the southern edge of Montana), the same date gives a 7:54am sunrise and 4:40pm sunset.
I'm back down in Denver now where it isn't as extreme, but the lack of evening light in winter does a number on my moods.
I'll gladly take post 8am sunrises in exchange for no sunsets before 5pm anytime of the year.
I live around 400 miles further south from there and our Dec. 10th sunset was 4:31. Denver says it was 4:35. So it's basically as extreme? Which is to say that I don't think being that far north...
I live around 400 miles further south from there and our Dec. 10th sunset was 4:31. Denver says it was 4:35. So it's basically as extreme?
Which is to say that I don't think being that far north made much of a difference at that time of year at least. It's also one of those things where personal preference - I'm more of a night person but I struggle more when I'm at work during all of the daylight hours and driving back and forth in the dark/dusk - probably doesn't overwhelm best practices. Ontario Oregon is on the far west side of Mountain Time Zone and its sunset was 4:32 that same day, so moving west (to a point) would get you almost as much as moving south did. Miami was 5:25... So there's only so much even Florida will get you.
Haha yeah we might have to turn off auto server time living close to the border. I'm hoping all of Canada follows suit. Just so much idiotic clock turning back and forth twice a year
Haha yeah we might have to turn off auto server time living close to the border.
I'm hoping all of Canada follows suit. Just so much idiotic clock turning back and forth twice a year
To say that I'm excited about this is a understatement, we are in full celebration here at work today. I wake up at 5:30AM and start work at 7AM, so no matter if we stayed on Standard Time or Daylight Savings Time I'm commuting and starting work in the pitch black in the winter. It will be extremely nice to get that extra hour of light after work so that I am not also arriving home in the pitch black. It would also have been rough (if we went the other way with the change) seeing it start getting light at 3AM in the summer, having it be already hot out by 7AM on the worst days. I've been dreaming of this for years and finally someone got sick of waiting on the US who can't even accomplish simple things anymore.
It cannot be overstated how nice it is to not have to deal with this haha. I briefly lived in the Phoenix metro area where they have permanent standard time. I went through two time changes while I was there and I felt smug while everyone else had to adjust and complain for a while. It's a small thing but the small pleasures in life make life worth living.
I have been swayed by science (I am in a discord server with someone who has worked on it) that permanent standard time is the right move for the US and also I just want folks to care less about a clock and adjust to the time of year more as they need.
But until then...
I wish we could universally move to 24hr UTC with no timezones.
China tried, but in practice people still use timezones.
The issue with universal UTC is that it's not actually useful when people talk to other people. Our lives are anchored by the rising and setting of the sun. Think about phrases like "9 to 5".
When someone says they wake up at 6am, that means, to everyone everywhere in the world, they're an early riser. Imagine now if everyone was at UTC time.
"I wake up at 11:00". What does this mean? Is it early? Is it late? I can't even interpret it without... calculating the time zone!
hm. ok yeah -- I am unsold on the previous idea. Also, we can't have Dolly redo the track to be Workin the 17 to 1 either.
It also makes sense for everybody to align with a sundial
Something I've always wondered about that song: did Dolly not get a lunch break? I've never had an employer roll my lunch break into my shift like that, but maybe that's just peculiar to my state's asinine labor laws.
it’s a fine question. did we see her take lunch in the movie?
How does it work in reality for folks in the western parts of China ? Official Beijing time vs locally understood time?
Obligatory link to So you want to abolish timezones, which goes through all the reasons this is a bad idea. Daylight Savings has much less utility than timezones do (though stu covered the gist fairly pithily already)
Yeah I agree with the other poster, you're just going to functionally use a local time zone anyway.
I never understood the trauma around daylight savings. The clock changes, you lose a little bit of sleep for one night of the year then gain a little bit of sleep for one night of the year. It seems pretty helpful when you live far from the equator.
SAVE STANDARD TIME
This website breaks it down into a bunch of categories, if it doesn't bother your sleep, it may impact your safety, or your doctor's alertness, etc.
But as I said I was swayed by one of the science folk working on this.
I've always been a fan of the idea of permanent standard time. If people prefer getting home earlier in the solar day they should just negotiate that work schedule with their employer, rather than forcing everybody else to be offset from the solar day.
(I have an extremely late schedule, in part due to working with americans, so this is actually to my own disadvantage.)
For some places it's definiteky needed (I remember someone talked about a study confirming how necessary it is for Sweden or Iceland or one of those very-northern country), but the adjustment isn't always easy. And honestly, it doesn't feel particularly necessary in many places anymore. It priorities an earlier sunrise and, as many have noted, the current setup can leave people in more darkness throughout the day if their schedules start early. A lot of people would prefer to have a dark morning commute and then enjoy some sunlight in the afternoon/evening when they're not on a tight schedule.
Chicago is particularly bad in my opinion since they get sunset as early as 4 PM in winter. I always think of a story from my former vice principal about asking a student why he didn't complete his homework. The kid's family lived in a car so their main light source was a flashlight, so when it ran out of battery he couldn't see his homework and thus couldn't do it. Thinking of that kid being in darkness at 4—the time I would usually start my homework after taking half an hour to play and unwind—just sticks out in my mind as overly depressing. No wonder seasonal depression is such a big problem...
Yep, where I live in the UK, and honestly not even that far north, at the height of winter the sun rises at ~8:30 and sets around 3:40. For anyone working a 8-4 (surprisingly common in my social circle), they simply spend their entire day in darkness, waking up in the dark, and travelling in the dark on both ends. Even for people on the more traditional 9-5, almost all will have to wake up in the dark, and most will still be traveling at least in part in the dark.
I always think we should prioritise a later sunset because almost everyone is awake from 5-6pm, especially on weekends, while fewer people are awake from say, 7-8am.
I'm actually surprised the overwhelming opinion here is so much in favour of this change. I'm a big daylight savings fan personally, but I understand the arguments against it. But I thought it was pretty widely accepted that permanent daylight saving time was the worst of the three options?
I'm really interested to see how this works out for BC people over the next few years.
Seems pretty evenly split between
Only DST
Only ST
DST/ST switch
hence why nothing ever changes. If there's no consensus, is what it is.
Split the difference at :30 and done.
Now try it with small kids ;)
(I think that's where a lot of the "trauma" comes from)
This is great news! The only thing that's a little concerning is if I get too close to the border I often pick up US cell towers, and I worry that my clock will jump back and forth.
Washington, Oregon, and California, if you're reading this you're welcome to join us, presuming you ever get a functional Congress again.
Permanent DST has been blocked by a single jerk in SoCal. God I wish we could get rid of him 😭
If your device timezone/region are set correctly, it shouldn't matter whether it's getting timing data from the US or Canada. IIRC "absolute" time is generally synced as UTC, then converted to the appropriate local time zone. The tzdata DBs have all the rules for which areas have what offsets, as well as when and how each zone adjusts (or doesn't) for DST.
Yeah I guess the only reason I have "Set time automatically" is for DST. I guess I can just remind myself to change the time if I visit Alberta. I'm definitely not visiting Washington any time soon.
I do know that with the default settings my clock automatically gets changed once I get to the Kootenays, so I assume the same thing would happen close to the US border. (for half the year, anyway)
States can determine whether or not they adhere to DST already. Arizona opts out of DST, for example.
Yep. Indiana used to opt out. Used to. I will forever question why they decided to opt in, I was too young when the change happened to pay attention to the political talk and reasoning. The only reason I really remember the change is because shows would air an hour earlier for part of the year.
Yeah, I remember the good times when Indy was smart about time. Can't stand that they changed. Then again, this is the state that nearly declared Pi to be equal to 3.2 legally.
This is the first time I've heard of this, and I am just so relieved it's from 1897. So mildly less crazy since that time period was kinda weird when it came to science. Just an old example of politicians trying to legislate a topic they know literally nothing about (and also the power of idiots with strong charisma).
Probably my favorite part. Too bad they didn't bury it in the swamplands and transferred it to Education, which somehow did pass it. Also:
I wish more modern politicians could think like that rather than assume they have all the power in the world... Maybe we need to bring back public ridicule of dumb political decisions. Not angry criticism and arguments, just mocking them for being so stupid and oblivious.
Problem is, states aren't allowed to go to year-round DST, only to standard time, without Congressional legislation. It would also require a Congressional act to just move a state one time zone ahead to their standard time, which would be functionally equivalent to permanent DST in their current timezone.
IIRC we passed state level law to go to permanent DST in my state a few years back, but they were clear that it would also require federal action to allow the option before it could go into effect.
I truly hope we can get the option, as permanent standard time would be awful with sunrises before 5AM in summer on top of the 4PM winter sunsets.
I wonder if you can work around it by just changing when you go into and out of DST.
It’s not permanent DST. We could go to standard time at 10:00 on New Year’s Eve, and back to DST at 10:01 on New Year’s Eve.
not sure why it's a problem to switch to year-round standard time rather than year-round summer time tbh. It's probably the better choice to use year-round for most states anyway. people just vote for permanent DST instead of the other way around because they have more positive associations with summer, I think. But then my state is on the western edge of its timezone, so it would be particularly silly to do permanent DST rather than permanent standard time.
Again, I do not want 4am sunrises in summer (as someone else mentioned, this would also result in the heat of the day hitting earlier in the morning too) and would like some more "afternoon" sunlight in the depths of winter where it is easy to both go to work and come home from it in the dark. Yes, it's a trick of the clock, but 4pm sunsets, at least for me, exacerbate already existing seasonal depression problems.
I'm in a city that sits on the longitudinal reference point for our time zone, so we're smack in the middle. I've also lived on the western edge of a time zone before (albeit noticeably farther north than my current location), and even there, I would have much preferred year round DST/moving a time zone ahead. Especially there, since winter sunsets were closer to 3pm and summer sunrises would hit around 4am with DST.
Your latitude must be significantly higher than the continental US to be getting the sunset and sunrise times you reference -- 4pm sunsets are about as bad as it gets in the height of winter where I currently live (and they do indeed make seasonal depression significantly worse), and my latitude is significantly further north than any US state that isn't Alaska.
My understanding is that the science has shown that permanent standard time works better for the majority of people than permanent DST, at least in the context of the continental US, but I haven't directly done much research into it. Someone else already linked a website that displays a bunch of the relevant data in this topic, I believe, and the summary there said that permanent DST would result in sunrise later than 8am for more than 3 months for considerable portions of the year and sunrise after 8:45 for short periods in many places.
I don't live there now, but I've lived close to the Canadian border before (in Havre, Montana), and the sun sets before 5PM every day in December. Looking at December 10th there, sunrise is at 8:00am and sunset is at 4:23pm. Even down in Bozeman where I went to college (which is on the southern edge of Montana), the same date gives a 7:54am sunrise and 4:40pm sunset.
I'm back down in Denver now where it isn't as extreme, but the lack of evening light in winter does a number on my moods.
I'll gladly take post 8am sunrises in exchange for no sunsets before 5pm anytime of the year.
I live around 400 miles further south from there and our Dec. 10th sunset was 4:31. Denver says it was 4:35. So it's basically as extreme?
Which is to say that I don't think being that far north made much of a difference at that time of year at least. It's also one of those things where personal preference - I'm more of a night person but I struggle more when I'm at work during all of the daylight hours and driving back and forth in the dark/dusk - probably doesn't overwhelm best practices. Ontario Oregon is on the far west side of Mountain Time Zone and its sunset was 4:32 that same day, so moving west (to a point) would get you almost as much as moving south did. Miami was 5:25... So there's only so much even Florida will get you.
then we can finally form the Sasquatch Militia --- I've been needing to brush up on my log throwing.
Haha that site unlocked a core memory. That's the site with some great info about the Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus.
I love the dream of Cascadia -- except for the fact that we'd be invaded by Canada and the US on about day three.
Haha yeah we might have to turn off auto server time living close to the border.
I'm hoping all of Canada follows suit. Just so much idiotic clock turning back and forth twice a year