What to do about reddit and trolls?
So I was following this discussion on Reddit today about someone finding evidence of Russia trolls finding a safe haven on reddit and the admins not addressing it.
And then also this one on Tildes that clears up why the OP deleted his account and the Reddit admin's overall poor response.
So I was wondering...is there any way to fix reddit? I've all but left it, but I really wish it wasn't so horrible a place to be.
In one of the reddit threads, a user posted an idea of having many many redditors all refuse to log in to reddit for a single day as a protest against how the site is being ran. Would this be advisable or effective? What other things could be done to "wake up" the site owners to what has been going on for so long?
EDIT: Here was the reddit admin team's response to the incident.
I while back i proposed that all mods of the big subs/ex defaults should, for 36 hours, only apply sitewide rules and watch what unfolds. Only removals and any other mod actions would be on stuff that violates ToS. Turn of all bots etc too.
The place would be in chaos within hours and mods might get some recognition for the efforts they put in to curtail as much of the trolling, racism, shitposting etc as they are able too.
I thought about doing that back when I modded, but then the users are the ones who suffer. The admins really don't give a shit about content, they just want their ad clicks.
I don't see this working, honestly. Day 1 maybe 2 you've got some of the best drama the site has ever seen increasing traffic throughout the site therefore making more money for the site. Day 2/3 users most likely turn on the mods and have some posts like "stop being babies and moderate" before they'd ever go after the admins. Beyond that it's probably just posts like "hey admins, replace these shitty mods" I could never picture a scenario where general users side with the mods on this one.
I saw it more as a "hey admins, do something please. We've been begging you for years. Look at the mess this place becomes when we don't provide any free labour for your business" thing.
Ideally it would look like that. But I've seen a whole lot of mod hate, more than admin hate. Just like the big article a few weeks back about mods getting harassed with gallowboob and the others.
With the exception of the comment from RamsesThePigeon about moderation I saw mostly comments like "if you don't like reddit or don't like being harassed don't moderate" and similar sentiments.
While I'm not saying there aren't ways to get reddit to fix some issues, I'm pretty confident a mod strike would not be effective.
Yeah I remember seeing someone say that when the article I mentioned was posted here.
Moderation is and will always be thankless and if you're putting in effort beyond just having fun/ being a free time hobby you're going to have a bad time or at least be greatly disappointed.
If /r/Linux's "anarchy week" is any indication, nothing much would happen. The new section and the bottom section of the comments would turn into a trashfest but the front page would still look almost entirely normal.
No, I don't think so. Reddit has been on a downward slope for a long time now. Even if some sort of action was to be taken, you can't recapture the times gone by. You can't regain the trust that has been lost, or the users who have left.
The people in charge have lost any ideological standing they may have had, and now all they do seems to be driven entirely by profits and PR.
Consider the wildly unpopular redesign. That's not going away, and I suspect in time you won't be able to opt-out of it. It's Digg v4, by another name.
Fixing reddit would be very hard, even if the people in charge wanted to do it. But as is, they took in too many venture capital dollars and are now in a hard push to grow the site and become profitable, meaning their goals in building a site are orthogonal to ours in using one. The alt right might be ruining a lot of people's experience on the site, but they buy a lot of gold, view a lot of ads, and nothing drives up short term user participation like a good 'ol flamewar.
I don't think this would be effective at all. Getting enough people to participate would be an insane task.
There are a few users on this site that were moderators on Reddit, and I'd be curious to hear their opinion on this post. But to me, I think that having users report calls for violence, racism, and Russian propaganda to news outlet would be fairly effective; assuming that media outlets actually cover it properly.
I think that the admins are fairly aware of what is happening. Users at /r/stopadvertising began sending screenshots of r/The_Donald content to advertisers on the page and admins stopped displaying advertisements on The_Donald. u/Spez has said that he wants to give them a voice, even though they have repeatedly broken site rules time and again. I don't fully understand their reasons, but it seems to be they are at least sympathetic to the rhetoric.
After the Russia propaganda drama that has taken place over the last few days with u/DivestTrump's post, his account deletion, and users claiming admins were censoring the post, I think I am pretty much over Reddit entirely. I logged into my ~ account on my phone's web browser and put a link to ~ on my home screen where my Reddit app used to go. Anytime someone attempts to have serious discussions on Reddit, it frequently turns to partisan arguments. Reddit has been quickly going to shit since the 2016 elections began. Having a civil discussion on Reddit anymore is next to impossible, and however Mueller's investigation ends, I imagine it's only going to get worse.
Nah, it started even earlier, with Ellen Pao taking over, I think that's when it started going bad
Possible unpopular opinion: I've come to believe Pao wasn't bad for Reddit.
I didn't think this at the time, though I wasn't a huge critic either. I did call for her to go at one point.
But based on what's surfaced since, I think she got a bad rap, and that much of the hostility was actually manifestation of what were a bunch of festering problems, many of which have since become far worse.
Which points to another underlying problem: it's very difficult to get an overall pulse of something as complex as the nexus of a forum website and its community. Or even an individual person.
I guess that's mostly when I noticed it start going bad. I knew that the overall vibe of the site was changing after it took off in popularity. I knew that there were small pockets of users posting some pretty horrible content, but it didn't really start affecting my experience, personally, until the elections.
I was going to dive into this thread, with my years of experience moderating on Reddit, and my strong opinions about... well... everything :) ... until I realised that I really don't care what happens on Reddit - certainly not enough to get invested in this discussion. I have two small patches of Reddit that I'm defending against the tide of yukkiness that's taking over elsewhere, but outside of those two small patches, I really don't care about Reddit any more. That's sad. I invested a lot of time and effort in Reddit over the past 7 years.
Ironically, it's not because of the trolls or alleged Russian agents or site-wide anti-mod feeling or the Fappening or Jail Bait or Fat Hate or Coon Town or The Donald that I don't care. I got used to those. They were just background noise to me; I mostly stayed away from that stuff. It's the bloody redesign: the design itself, the philosophy behind that design, and the admins' attitude which was revealed in how they implemented it. The admins just don't give a shit about the users or their moderators. And if they don't care about me, why should I care about them?
Let 'em face the consequences of their own attitudes and their own inaction. Let 'em get their just deserts.
You summed up how I feel about it perfectly.
The only reason I was made a mod on /r/listentothis is because I was sharing a mountain of music during the first few weeks it existed, and constantly PMing the mods to send my posts through the (then) abominable spam filter. Around week three they said 'screw it, you can mod the spam queue yourself' and that was that. They left within the first two years leaving me holding the reigns. I polled the community on every decision and let them decide how to run things. All of the rules and the bots and the basic mission of the place came from the first-year users, as it should be.
We were lucky there - the content that's on-topic for that place can be judged almost perfectly by algorithm, so once we had the bots in place, the content was self-moderating. I drafted several of the top contributors for the original mod team, and as we found more music geeks over the years we added them until listentothis had a team around 20 music geeks who just sat there jamming to obscure music all day. It was a cratedigger's paradise.
As far as moderation goes, /r/listentothis was a fucking cakewalk compared to most other communities. Even though the bots are aging (we should be using more spotify data rather than last.fm) it's still running along fine right now with minimal human moderation. We spent our 'mod' time doing genre roundups, the bestof every year, mixtape competitions, and other community-building crap that mostly just annoyed the users. :) That's what moderation should be like.
If we'd had to put up with the shite that goes on in places like /r/politics or even askreddit I expect the entire team would have quit immediately. Most of them are here now anyway, so we'll have a chance to do with ~music what reddit would never enable us to do with /r/music or even /r/listentothis - turn it into the ultimate musical discovery and appreciation community. It's going to be awesome.
I'm interested in building that community. Early listentothis showed us the way, and for a while there, the place was untouchable for music discovery. We can make that happen again, and take it much, much further than reddit ever dared. I'd rather infuse Tildes with what we learned than spend my time talking to the brick wall of stupidity that is reddit corporate. The 'real' reddit we all loved in the beginning died about five years ago anyway, all that's left now is a bile driven memetic hurricane.
Let reddit burn, and good fucking riddance. I'll miss the quiet, smaller, more excellent places, but those will come again as well, and perhaps they'll come here. The longer Voat and zombie-Reddit stay alive, the better it is for Tildes. They keep the worst from coming here. I'll still visit places like /r/vintageobscura and /r/dndbehindthescreen from time to time, at least until they kill old.reddit.com - when that happens, I'm blocking reddit at my firewall and swearing it off for good.
That parallels my experience in joining the mod team at /r/AskHistorians. I was already running around the sub, reminding people about the rules, guiding them to the FAQ, and everything else, so the mods decided they might as well bring me onto the mod team so I could do this stuff officially (and, also possibly so they could keep me a little under their thumb). Unfortunately (or fortunately), you can't moderate that subreddit algorithmically. It's very hands-on and very labour-intensive - and can lead to a surprising amount of conflict for a history subreddit. But I learned a hell of a lot doing it.
haha I joined the mod team of /r/PoliticalDiscussion once. I lasted only a few months before I gave it away as a bad joke. That place was toxic. It was one of the worst experiences I had as a moderator on Reddit.
I'm not so sure. I think some of them are unique. That's why I'm holding on to some of them for as long as I can. I don't want to see them burn with the rest of Reddit.
Exactly.
As usual, I disagree with you, mostly ;-)
I too no longer care about Reddit.
But it's all of the above. The crap, and the redesign.
Seiously, for a minute: they're related. The redesign feeds the crap, the crap forrced the redesign, and collectively they betray an immense contempt for Reddit's contributors and readers..
Yep. You'll want access to their servers so you can perform the following:
It's kinda drastic, but it's ultimately for the best.
Got a nice chuckle from me friend
It wasn't exactly high-effort, but I couldn't resist.
I would have ended it with a
sudo kill -9 -1myself. :PThis may not be what you want to hear: nothing, don't do anything. It's not worth your or anyone's time and nothing is going to change on a dying platform[1] if one or two, or even 1000 users try to do something about it. Use reddit for the memes, funny and mindless content, and find another platform for more serious discussion.
[1] reddit is not literally dying, but it's replacing its old users with new people, the type of people you'd find in Facebook and other more mainstream communities. Those users who are more likely to watch ads and click them, who have a very short attention span and prefer scrolling through huge images with little to no text. Those that love to rant about politics, but at the same time are easily manipulated by them. And those that are not there to participate, but only to self-promote and spam their YouTube channels and Instagram profiles.
That user turnover is a major factor in the death of a platform.
The original users are the ones who built the place and made it cool enough to attract everyone else. Reddit's owners seem to think they can kick those people to the curb and let the new kids run everything - but the new kids don't produce anything worthwhile. All they do is click and consume, they don't post, they don't create, they just gawp at the screen like deer in headlights. They annoy the cool kids, who pack up and leave to start the next good party just to get away from their bullshit.
We need bouncers at the door to keep the new kids in check when they show up here. ;)
I haven't been following this controversy, but I think that overall Reddit is way past the Rubicon at this point, it's on the decline. A lot of websites are. We are at a weird point in time when old websites are dying and new ones are being born, and there is no knowing what would be popular in a few years when all of this blows over. The amount of activity I see on Tildes and the amount of time I'm willing to spend here at the cost of my Reddit time speaks volumes to me about how people are willing to go elsewhere. Even the redesign came with a massive slowdown and reduce in functionality. Old Reddit looked "dated" but it worked well and it was comfy, but the new Reddit looks huge, slow and dumb. It's just that there is no clear alternative to it yet, Voat was promising, but it absorbed the worst of Reddit when Reddit started purging subreddits for the first time.
I think that it's the natural lifecycle of any social website - at one point the audience gets too big, everything snowballs and then people move on. The only exception to that rule are small websites that harbor a certain community that has at least some kind of barrier or exclusivity factor, since any new potential member would have to either adopt to the culture inside the said website or leave, but that doesn't happen when there are hundreds of new users coming over each day.
I would love to see another website fall the way Digg did. Websites need a kind of "slash-and-burn" period for something else to grow out of but I fear that so many websites now hold such a firm grasp we won't see it happen. Instead of something new coming, it will just be copied, replicated, or bought up but a bigger corp. I was on reddit from the very early days and it's a bloated mess of what it used to be and it needs to burn (figuratively of course).
I've met some cool people on reddit, learned new things, commissioned art, but outside of these few interactions the majority of my time spent on the site in the past 4 years has been so disheartening. 18/20 posts on /r/popular are pictures/gifs/videos/instagram. 1 is a drama post. 1 is a news story. I think that explains most of my issues. Even if you filter subreddits (100 isn't enough and the feature is hidden on the resign) and subscribe to more text-based subreddits the culture of the site has changed. Even smaller band-related subreddits are filled with low effort posts.
I hope most of the "web 2.0" sites of the mid 00s die soon, they've outstayed their welcome.
Answering the title
I don't think Reddit can be fixed. It was created as a bastion of absolute free-speech, and it will always house a good amount of people who believe in absolute free-speech at the expense of any other moral or legal principle. If Reddit admins actively go against such people, they risk losing a major part of their core userbase. If they don't do anything, they're unable to grow in value and size. Right now, Reddit is struggling to be profitable. That's what the redesign is all about. They'll never get big advertisers if they don't clean their act, but, if they do so, they might not have many people on the platform anymore. So the "solution" is to take selective action whenever a particular sub becomes so toxic that the media catches on. Reddit is doom to failure because of a fundamental, unfixable flaw that's incompatible with growth. No protest will ever change it in a major way because there's no economic incentive to do so. And that is why I'm on Tildes.
Regarding this particular case
If the Tildes summary is true, the situation is quite clear: Reddit is not equiped to deal with trolls. But I don't think that's merely a software engineering problem, I actually think they have the means to do better but are not really interested in doing so, and the reasons for that are the same I wrote about in the above paragraphs.
Also: downvotes are toxic. They make some sense for links, but zero for comments.
Not sure I quite agree on the downvote thing. Downvotes are reddit's lazy solution for their "absolute free speech" approach. They realize they can't just let trolls run fully unchecked, and they outsource that to relying on people to downvote them. It's easily manipulated and awful, but I understand the idea behind it. It's their lazy outsourcing of the banhammer that they need to be wielding.
I think I actually talked myself into agreeing with you. Even in the best case scenario they're being used as a replacement for good community standards.
If I could suggest: many responses (including my own earlier) echo "why bother", "it's too late", ' I don't care', etc., regards Reddit.
That's really not what matters.
Rather: how do you keep a site you do care about from sliding down that hole?
Or the others: a quiet slide into staleness, groupthink, petty conflicts, etc.
Hrm; maybe Neal Stephenson's Anathem had a good idea with its 10, 100, and 1,000 year orders and Aperts. Hrm....
I did care about Reddit. For years, I cared about Reddit. I did my best, along with some other people, to stop Reddit sliding down the hole into toxicity. However, without the support of the administrators there, there was only so far people like us were able to go.
To take just one example (the straw that broke this particular camel's back): when Reddit started working on their new redesign and invited some of us to be part of their alpha testing (I was part of the second wave of invitees), I saw it as an opportunity to use my combined experience as a moderator on Reddit, including on their own official /r/Help subreddit, and as a Business Analyst working on software development, to help them make this redesign better.
They ignored me, along with many others.
One of the biggest points of feedback we gave them, quite loudly and repeatedly, was that they should stop rolling out this alpha-testing and incomplete version of the new website to the wider user base. As a replacement for the old website, it was still missing many many features of the old website. We told them that if they rolled out this unfinished version to more users, they would cop a lot of negative feedback. They would simply be making a rod for their own backs. They ignored us and kept rolling out the unfinished, incomplete version to users.
And - surprise, surprise - the users didn't like it. "I can't do this thing I used to do!" "Where's this feature?" "This is shit!" And so on, and so on.
They had experienced moderators, system developers, and other IT professionals giving them informed and relevant feedback, and they totally ignored it. By doing so, they not only pissed off a lot of users who didn't like the incomplete new website, they also further disillusioned a lot of their experienced moderators. They killed two birds with that one stone.
And this merely exemplifies their broader approach to running Reddit: they did whatever they wanted to, with minimal concern for what their moderators and their users told them.
So... how do you keep a site you care about from sliding down that hole when the people running that site won't listen to you? You don't.
Then Tildes came along. And I've noticed one big difference: @Deimos is listening to us. He might disagree with
meus at times, but he's paying attention. Also, he's not being stupid about it. Just like the Reddit redesign, Deimos is building an alpha-testing website. But he's not rushing it to market like Reddit did. He's testing it. He's getting feedback from the users, and he's considering that feedback rather than ignoring it. The roots of this website are already more sensible than the roots of Reddit. Maybe the difference is that Deimos doesn't have the same need to monetise Tildes that the Reddit developers have to monetise their website. Maybe it's that Deimos has been inside Reddit and can learn from their mistakes. Maybe he's just more level-headed. Maybe it's a combination of these. But Tildes already feels better than Reddit. And I feel like we can keep this website from sliding down the same hole as Reddit - because the person at the top is motivated to do so, unlike at Reddit. And, I think that's the key. Without support at the top, the rest of us can do only so much.Story time.
Around listentothis year 3 I got this idea for 'curated content' to help select good stuff independently of the votes. The idea was simple - we'd have a bot use reddit's 'friend' feature to follow users we'd authorized (based on quality contributions in /r/listentous). Basically, we were looking for tastemakers, people with good taste in any/all genres, the more the better.
Whenever they spotted a good track anywhere on reddit, if they replied with a comment of 'curate' it'd crosspost the track over in /r/listentocurated, and that'd turn into a musical bestof.
I sent @Deimos a PM asking him to add this stuff to automoderator back when automod was still his user-created tool. In like a week he'd whipped up a custom module just for us to do some of the curating work with automod. The curation system never really took off (hard to popularize it to get to critical mass) but for a while it was actually working and beating the shit out of 'votes' for selecting quality music.
That's why when he told me about Tildes I was instantly all-in. His track record is beyond exemplary, always has been - and he's much smarter about this stuff than anyone else I've ever talked to over the years (and there have been many clever people in that group).
I think it would be beneficial if you made your point clearer.
I agree: not all of us have read 'Anathem' or know what an "Apert" is.
In Anathem, every X years the gates of the "cities" would open to let outsiders enter them and then close it again after ten days. It's basically analogous to the way private torrent trackers regulate users joining their sites by only opening registration every so often in order to not get overwhelmed and allow new users to acclimatize before inviting more.
I'm actually surprised you haven't read it, TBH. I suspect you would enjoy it.
Thanks for explaining. I don't see how that relates to Tildes, so I think @dredmorbius still needs to make their point clearer.
I have both limited money and limited time. I can't buy or read every work of science fiction. :(
I think dred was saying that careful gatekeeping like that is likely to play an important role in keeping Tildes from sliding into the dark realms of meh. Invite only, eventually short periods of open registration, but for the most part, when the attention is on, Tildes is closed for the day to new users.
That's kinda the plan, until the glorious day the trust system can do as good or a better job than gatekeeping.
In a nutshell, yes, though nuances matter and there's a wide variety of models to choose from.
Yeah I agree their point probably could have been much better explained. And the way in which (I assume) it relates to Tildes in that they are suggesting Tildes, when it does start allowing public user registration, should consider adopting the same model as the Aperts by only opening the gates every so often.
Whenever I see those "what superpower would you choose?" type discussions, my immediate thought is "the ability to freeze time (and not age during that stoppage)"... not so I can do any of the cliche crap like rob a bank, but just so that I could actually have the time I needed to consume all the content I want. Too much amazing content out there, not enough time! :(
My superpower would be to know in advance what I can safely ignore. "Much study is a weariness of the flesh."
Though Anathem has some fascinating ideas, well-presented.
I agree. I need to think it over and possibly re-resd a bit of the book first. The comment waas partially a note to myself.
There are a few threads I'm trying to pull together:
Forum failure modes
A lot of us are concerned with Reddit's failings, especially trolls and brigadings. This is only one set of failure modes. There are others, and it helps not to be bling to them.
Scale matters in networks
There is a tremendous difference in network dynamics, especially in the exchange and development of complex information, with scale. Dunbar's number is well known by now but it's only one of a set of thresholds. A problem Reddit faces with a million-plus subreddits is in accommodating anything from 1-3 person discussions to multi-million reader common channels. And designing a set of tools for volunteer moderators to use that doesn'y scare off newbs, but has sufficient power for what are effectively major publishing empires. That's a hard problem.
One approach is to build smaller groups (see the recently-defunct Path). Tha's been ... only modestly successful. Metafilter and The Well use and old-school approach: paid memberships. There are many others.
Anathem: time-based cultural resets & remixings
In Anathem, Stephenson suggestss a possible structural model which might address a few of the failure modes. The thought occured as I was writing the GP comment, and really isn't fleshed out. I'm still mulling it. What follows is me thinking out loud.
Backstory: you can read Anathem on various levels. One of these is as an exploration of much of Weatern philosophy and of creating a parallel to religious institutions based on academic models. There are a cluster of concepts in the story which blend the concept of academic institutions built around a religious-typy structure. "Saunts" are like saints but the word is derived (according to Stephenson) from "savant". Similar for "fraa" (evokes 'frére). "Consents" are sort of academic monasteries, of the Mathic orders, separate from the Saecular World.
(There's ... a lot of world-building here.)
And there is a regular schedule on which those can re-establish extramural contact with the outside (saecular) world, and other Maths, for ten days, called Aperts, from aperture, when the gates open. Stephenson was working with the Long Now foundation, this idea borrows heavily on it.
The Aperts give some check on both saecular and mathic culture going too far adrift over thime, though ... there are incidents. They're something like generation ships in other sci-fi universes, though not travelling separately through space.
Both Wikipedia's Anathem page and the Anathem Wiki have more on this.
The carryover to online communities might be to build semi-autonomous groups, but to exchange portions of communities on some regular basis, to foster cross-cultivation and avoid embedded groupthink. Likely shorter than 1, 10, 100, and 1,000 years .... ;-)
Hope you've read Shirky's talk on this stuff. If you haven't you're in for a treat.
I was thinking the bubble-up mechanics would help check the group think. That issue bugs me more than most of the others. It should go something like this...
A submission starts in a subgroup, gets popular there, builds a discussion, then breaks past the 1 in 100 limits (however we build them) that allow it to bubble up. The people in the parent group are now seeing it for the first time, but it's already got the entire conversation from the sub-group alive and kicking when they get there.
That sort-of gives the home group the 'first word' in a discussion, and since that should be the most relevant community, that's probably a good thing. They get their story straight with each other, any expertise is probably on display, and nobody is dealing with a ton of front-page style drive-by users cluttering up the discussion. It might be a pretty small discussion, but if it's leveling up, it should be one of the larger than normal ones for that group.
Then the much larger, much broader-topic parent group gets the 'next word' in the cycle. At that point the groupthink of the smaller group should be challenged by the wider audience in the parent group. They might be more receptive because they are a neighbor which aligns the audiences to similar interests. If the post does well there again, it can hit the threshold to go up to the next highest group, and so on, until it reaches the root.
Every step of the way, each group gets a chance to weigh in on their own time, and they have to find it interesting enough to kick forward, so that's also a quality filter. That just might help break down the groupthink a bit. Each larger group is going to come in partly with a mindset of picking apart the discussion that's already there. In a way it's turning a bad behavior into a useful spark for constructive criticism.
We'll obviously need a smarter comment mechanism than just the base voting, though. Otherwise whatever's highest upvoted early on will dominate just like on reddit. We need to give new comments a shot, and each new group a shot at visibility when diving into an older debate.
Familiar with Shirky's essay, but a reread is timely. Just libgenned Bion for later reading.
Your bubble-up model is very similar to what I've conceived of as a set of "knitting and tea" societies, though other models, even just arbitrarily sharding & hashing together groups of personIDs, might also work.
(Using this as an ingress filter for submission voting is another possible function, see Hacker News's "new" queue, picture that divided so that unvoted stories only appear to a subset of readers, with that subset growing (or falling) as an item is voted up or down.
Assessing and communicating quality at scale is difficult. The popular technology for the past century or so has been markets. They are severely limited in this regard, and there are other mechanisms.
Reddit isn't what it was originally or meant to be. That said, propaganda will always be a problem for social media just like it has always been and always will be for all other types of media.
The problem with Reddit is the masses of lazy, ignorant and even stupid people who don't research on their own.
This is a difficult question to answer. Reddit would likely clean up to a certain degree if it became a publicly traded company (though this still depends on the structure of capital). Of course, this could also ruin Reddit in other ways.
Doesn’t Condenast own reddit and aren’t they publicly traded?
Condenast does own Reddit (in that it has a majority stake), but Condenast is itself a subsidiary of Advance Publications, which is privately held.
Close, but it's actually Advance itself that owns reddit, not Conde Nast. From this blog post in 2013 (note that a lot of the other info in the post is way out of date):
Ah thank you!
Reddit had that protest where the mods form a bunch of subs all had a blank protest page, effectively shutting down the traffic to those subs. Not really sure what came of it.
That aside I don't think the problem is site admins aren't aware of a problem, rather a solution is just difficult to find.