He outlines his solution first by saying we should "limit twiddling," and then lays out some possible legislative goals that would do this: Better privacy laws, protection against...
He outlines his solution first by saying we should "limit twiddling," and then lays out some possible legislative goals that would do this: Better privacy laws, protection against false/misleading/deceptive advertising (fake reviews, search results, etc), open up walled gardens (third-party interoperable APIs required).
He also tosses this one into the mix:
End worker misclassification through the so-called gig economy, meaning that every worker is entitled to minimum wages, a safe workplace, and fair scheduling.
That is a great goal, and one I'm 100% on board with. But I don't see how it relates to the problem of platform decay/enshittification. Is it related? Or is it just "hey, while we're making tech stuff better, let's do this too?"
If you harken back to the beginning, how he talks about how Amazon was able to undercut Diapers.com until they went bankrupt. Making sure workers get their fair due means thinks like Lyft and Uber...
If you harken back to the beginning, how he talks about how Amazon was able to undercut Diapers.com until they went bankrupt.
Making sure workers get their fair due means thinks like Lyft and Uber can't easily do to taxis what Amazon did to diapers.
For Uber and Lyft, the drivers are akin to the business customers getting squeezed on other platforms.
When they were running on pure VC, riders got cheap rides and drivers got good cash. Riders are now paying more and drivers getting paid less. So on and so forth.
Author, activist, and creator of the term "enshittification" Cory Doctorow's presentation from this year's DEF CON. Worth a watch - as always, Doctorow is an engaging speaker. A transcript is...
Author, activist, and creator of the term "enshittification" Cory Doctorow's presentation from this year's DEF CON. Worth a watch - as always, Doctorow is an engaging speaker.
There is a certain irony to posting an article about enshittification on Medium... Could you perhaps summarise the video briefly? It seems very difficult to imagine a plan to stop this sort of...
There is a certain irony to posting an article about enshittification on Medium...
Could you perhaps summarise the video briefly? It seems very difficult to imagine a plan to stop this sort of gradual decline, when it seems to be a fairly consistent trend in human organisation.
Kagi summary of the youtube: Cory Doctorow coins the term "insidification" to describe how platforms start out benefiting users but eventually abuse users and business customers to extract all...
Kagi summary of the youtube:
Cory Doctorow coins the term "insidification" to describe how platforms start out benefiting users but eventually abuse users and business customers to extract all value.
Facebook started by prioritizing user privacy over ads but now prioritizes profits over all else.
Network effects are a double-edged sword - they lock users in but also make platforms vulnerable if users leave en masse.
Low switching costs due to universality and interoperability allow competitors to plug into dominant platforms through scraping and reverse engineering.
Mandatory interoperability and limiting data control can decentralize power over technology from giant platforms to users and smaller companies.
Recent antitrust actions aim to roll back decades of lax merger policy that let platforms consolidate dominance.
Breakups will take a long time so interoperability is a faster way to restore competition and user choice.
Laws should enable rather than criminalize interoperability efforts by third parties.
Federated and open alternatives can succeed if they fail gracefully by not locking users in.
Political obstacles to reform remain large but continuing advocacy and awareness efforts are important.
I like it! It's much better than "enshittification" because it carries the implication of evil and sneakiness, which I think is pretty accurate: they are knowing enacting harmful changes without...
I like it! It's much better than "enshittification" because it carries the implication of evil and sneakiness, which I think is pretty accurate: they are knowing enacting harmful changes without people's knowledge and consent. "Enshittification" implies the the product is simply getting worse, but it does not bring to mind the hostile and deceitful nature of these changes.
I looked up the etymology and the ‘in-‘ and ‘en-‘ prefixes have the same root. The ‘-sid’ part has a Latin root related to sitting (as in lying in wait to ambush/entrap…not to take a dump)....
I looked up the etymology and the ‘in-‘ and ‘en-‘ prefixes have the same root. The ‘-sid’ part has a Latin root related to sitting (as in lying in wait to ambush/entrap…not to take a dump).
‘Insidification’ feels appropriate due to these platforms luring in supply and demand with artificially suppressed prices/experiences before unleashing the potential of their newfound rent-seeking market position. It may not be a word (yet!) but seems like an appropriate Eggcorn for this situation.
Had to dig a bit, he posted back in August. https://pluralistic.net/2023/08/27/an-audacious-plan-to-halt-the-internets-enshittification-and-throw-it-into-reverse/
The author discusses "enshittification," the decline of tech platforms due to lack of competition and unchecked power. They propose breaking up tech monopolies, implementing privacy laws, and promoting interoperability to empower users and prevent further deterioration of the internet and tech sector.
This is off topic and sorry about that but there probably isn't a better spot to complain without starting its own thread: I don't like the term "enshittification". I understand what it stands for...
This is off topic and sorry about that but there probably isn't a better spot to complain without starting its own thread:
I don't like the term "enshittification". I understand what it stands for and it really fits well for what it is representing, I can't deny that. But the "shit" there is just too edgy for me to take it 100% seriously. It strikes me as juvenile and potentially inappropriate. And it doesn't help that it's at the moment really popular -- well that's probably partly because everything is being enshittificatied right now.
I know I'm complaining basically about nothing and this might just be my inner contrarian bugging me but still... Sometimes you just need to whine about nothing.
Platform decay. Platform decay is the result of firms undisciplined by either competition or regulation and thus free to abuse their users and business customers without the fear of defection or...
It's good, but not quite enough. Gotta break it down. en - like "engineered" or "enforced", it implies effort being expended shit - self-explanitory. I think the extra revulsion that comes with...
It's good, but not quite enough. Gotta break it down.
en - like "engineered" or "enforced", it implies effort being expended
shit - self-explanitory. I think the extra revulsion that comes with "shit" is a good feature. ification - process of becoming
Platform Decay is only the "shit" part, and lacks the conversational encapsulation of "en-" and "-ification."
@PantsEnvy used “insidification” in another discussion in this thread, and I think it’s great because it sounds similar when pronounced out-loud, and captures the insidious nature behind it too....
@PantsEnvy used “insidification” in another discussion in this thread, and I think it’s great because it sounds similar when pronounced out-loud, and captures the insidious nature behind it too.
I really like that one, it highlights well how the services aren't turning to shit just because, but that it happens by design, where the goal is pretty much to fuck over the user. Ps. Tags...
I really like that one, it highlights well how the services aren't turning to shit just because, but that it happens by design, where the goal is pretty much to fuck over the user.
I do not. I know, "thanks for nothing", but this is just me putting my thoughts out there to see if I'm alone on this. Apparently not totally at least. And I do agree the term itself is very good...
I do not. I know, "thanks for nothing", but this is just me putting my thoughts out there to see if I'm alone on this. Apparently not totally at least. And I do agree the term itself is very good as you almost intuitively can decipher its meaning.
I mean, I agree that it's not the greatest term but it's just a colloquial term. I've never really gotten the feeling it's exactly edgy, just casual and expressing exasperation.
I mean, I agree that it's not the greatest term but it's just a colloquial term. I've never really gotten the feeling it's exactly edgy, just casual and expressing exasperation.
It originated at a Cory blog post and kind of took a life of its own really. Harder to hate on people using a term when that term was pretty organically adopted.
It originated at a Cory blog post and kind of took a life of its own really. Harder to hate on people using a term when that term was pretty organically adopted.
I kinda agree. The term doesn't bother me at all, but I am an Internet Person and very comfortable with casual swearing. There are people out there in positions to maybe do something about it,...
I kinda agree. The term doesn't bother me at all, but I am an Internet Person and very comfortable with casual swearing. There are people out there in positions to maybe do something about it, though, who may have your same issue with accepting or discussing a concept that requires them to swear. I doubt there's another term as pithy as enshittification, but it still might be better to go with "benefit degradation" ("utility slide"? Idk, I'm not a words person) or something that won't make people cringe away from the subject.
I probably should've mentioned I'm with you when it comes to swearing. Doesn't really bother me. It's just when it comes to actual, official use it might be a bit hard to take seriously. That's...
I probably should've mentioned I'm with you when it comes to swearing. Doesn't really bother me.
It's just when it comes to actual, official use it might be a bit hard to take seriously. That's probably what bothers me. Or maybe I'm just up my own ass. Idk.
It's not quite, exactly, the same concept, but "the race to the bottom" is a well-established expression that refers to a similar capitalistic desire to find the absolute minimum effort required...
It's not quite, exactly, the same concept, but "the race to the bottom" is a well-established expression that refers to a similar capitalistic desire to find the absolute minimum effort required for maximum profit.
A lot of it isn't really about expending minimum effort. Reddit didn't make new reddit and the app in order to spend less energy. It's more about controlling the platform and appealing to the...
A lot of it isn't really about expending minimum effort. Reddit didn't make new reddit and the app in order to spend less energy. It's more about controlling the platform and appealing to the least common denominator.
I like to think of it as sort of a cross between onomatopoeia and a recursive acronym like GNU. It sounds kind of like the thing it's describing and contains a bit of what its describing within...
I like to think of it as sort of a cross between onomatopoeia and a recursive acronym like GNU. It sounds kind of like the thing it's describing and contains a bit of what its describing within itself.
Topically, I consider platforms like YouTube, TikTok and Facebook creating a chilling effect of over-the-top self-censorship to be a major form of enshittification. The companies are so afraid...
Topically, I consider platforms like YouTube, TikTok and Facebook creating a chilling effect of over-the-top self-censorship to be a major form of enshittification. The companies are so afraid advertisers won't like simple words, and users are afraid of having their posts algorithmically banished, that many people are writing things like "s*x" and "sh*t" now, which I consider to be patently absurd. And it's carrying over into other contexts, out of habit.
I'm the opposite. Most people swear, many swear a great deal. Culturally in my country (Scotland) swearing is something virtually everyone does publicly and it's become a bit of a joke that the...
I'm the opposite. Most people swear, many swear a great deal. Culturally in my country (Scotland) swearing is something virtually everyone does publicly and it's become a bit of a joke that the word 'fuck' is practically punctuation for some dialects particularly in Glaswegian and Dundonian dialects. I don't find it edgy I find it perfectly normal and if anything I find the absence of it quite distracting in media because my brain just immediately detects it as anomalous.
If you want a more polite term, perhaps commidifying. Or over/excessive commercializing? Something along those lines? Enshitification I think is fine for informal discussion. I haven't watched the...
If you want a more polite term, perhaps commidifying. Or over/excessive commercializing? Something along those lines?
Enshitification I think is fine for informal discussion.
I haven't watched the video yet, but I feel the tech and tools are already in place for people to take back the web so to speak. People just need to rethink how to use existing avenues to do it.
If I were to make a web show, I might upload my videos via bittorent and use YouTube as a means to provide status updates, summary of an episode, etc. and direct people to where they can download my stuff.
Put two links in the video description. One with ads and one direct link and give people the choice to support me via clicking the ad link. And or links to PayPal, venmo, I think I've seen a site called tipjar, and so on and be transparent and tell people what ways they can support me.
Or if they can't afford it, but want to contribute somehow just help by seeding videos. I get there's alternatives to YouTube, but YouTube is still incredibly popular. My idea is instead of remaining at the sole mercy of YouTube, just use it direct traffic to your content elsewhere instead of having it directly on that site.
Before search engines were a thing, web rings were a thing and web directories like dmoz/curlie.
Lots of people upset with Google which used to have a pretty decent engine. To me it seems like all the ones I'm aware of are lackluster in one way or another, so perhaps it's time for web directories to make a comeback.
Nothing stopping anyone from getting a web host and making their own curated directory of websites. Instead of trying to cover everything like curlie, a person could focus on a specific topic.
Maybe you enjoy fishing but don't want to make your own website about it in depth, make a directory site with links to other's sites that you feel cover the subject matter well.
Or maybe a person that's tired of all the excessive ads, images, videos and what not and wants to curate a directory of minimalist text only sites about whatever. Maybe be proactive about having archive.org crawling and backing up such sites.
In turn people could trade links with different specialty directories.
I mentioned web directories because it's something I've considered doing off and on.
He outlines his solution first by saying we should "limit twiddling," and then lays out some possible legislative goals that would do this: Better privacy laws, protection against false/misleading/deceptive advertising (fake reviews, search results, etc), open up walled gardens (third-party interoperable APIs required).
He also tosses this one into the mix:
That is a great goal, and one I'm 100% on board with. But I don't see how it relates to the problem of platform decay/enshittification. Is it related? Or is it just "hey, while we're making tech stuff better, let's do this too?"
If you harken back to the beginning, how he talks about how Amazon was able to undercut Diapers.com until they went bankrupt.
Making sure workers get their fair due means thinks like Lyft and Uber can't easily do to taxis what Amazon did to diapers.
For Uber and Lyft, the drivers are akin to the business customers getting squeezed on other platforms.
When they were running on pure VC, riders got cheap rides and drivers got good cash. Riders are now paying more and drivers getting paid less. So on and so forth.
Author, activist, and creator of the term "enshittification" Cory Doctorow's presentation from this year's DEF CON. Worth a watch - as always, Doctorow is an engaging speaker.
A transcript is available on Medium, for those who prefer reading to listening, but appears to be paywalled.
There is a certain irony to posting an article about enshittification on Medium...
Could you perhaps summarise the video briefly? It seems very difficult to imagine a plan to stop this sort of gradual decline, when it seems to be a fairly consistent trend in human organisation.
You have to meet people where they are. He could post this only on his own blog… but then he'll reach only the people who already read his blog.
You can also watch the video, it's just a transcript.
Kagi summary of the youtube:
Cory Doctorow coins the term "insidification" to describe how platforms start out benefiting users but eventually abuse users and business customers to extract all value.
Facebook started by prioritizing user privacy over ads but now prioritizes profits over all else.
Network effects are a double-edged sword - they lock users in but also make platforms vulnerable if users leave en masse.
Low switching costs due to universality and interoperability allow competitors to plug into dominant platforms through scraping and reverse engineering.
Mandatory interoperability and limiting data control can decentralize power over technology from giant platforms to users and smaller companies.
Recent antitrust actions aim to roll back decades of lax merger policy that let platforms consolidate dominance.
Breakups will take a long time so interoperability is a faster way to restore competition and user choice.
Laws should enable rather than criminalize interoperability efforts by third parties.
Federated and open alternatives can succeed if they fail gracefully by not locking users in.
Political obstacles to reform remain large but continuing advocacy and awareness efforts are important.
Does he actually say "insidification" or is that just a coincidentally accurate misunderstanding of enshittification?
Yeah that right there almost fixes the terminology problem discussed elsethread
I like it! It's much better than "enshittification" because it carries the implication of evil and sneakiness, which I think is pretty accurate: they are knowing enacting harmful changes without people's knowledge and consent. "Enshittification" implies the the product is simply getting worse, but it does not bring to mind the hostile and deceitful nature of these changes.
I looked up the etymology and the ‘in-‘ and ‘en-‘ prefixes have the same root. The ‘-sid’ part has a Latin root related to sitting (as in lying in wait to ambush/entrap…not to take a dump).
‘Insidification’ feels appropriate due to these platforms luring in supply and demand with artificially suppressed prices/experiences before unleashing the potential of their newfound rent-seeking market position. It may not be a word (yet!) but seems like an appropriate Eggcorn for this situation.
you can find everything he writes on www.pluralistic.net
It doesn't seem like this is on there, though.
Had to dig a bit, he posted back in August.
https://pluralistic.net/2023/08/27/an-audacious-plan-to-halt-the-internets-enshittification-and-throw-it-into-reverse/
Thanks, I tried searching for the word and nothing came up in August.
https://archive.ph/LncPg
ChatGPT gave me this TL;DR:
This is off topic and sorry about that but there probably isn't a better spot to complain without starting its own thread:
I don't like the term "enshittification". I understand what it stands for and it really fits well for what it is representing, I can't deny that. But the "shit" there is just too edgy for me to take it 100% seriously. It strikes me as juvenile and potentially inappropriate. And it doesn't help that it's at the moment really popular -- well that's probably partly because everything is being enshittificatied right now.
I know I'm complaining basically about nothing and this might just be my inner contrarian bugging me but still... Sometimes you just need to whine about nothing.
Do you have a suggestion for a better term? I think it's very succinct and accurate. Enterribleization doesn't quite roll off the tongue as smoothly.
Platform decay. Platform decay is the result of firms undisciplined by either competition or regulation and thus free to abuse their users and business customers without the fear of defection or punishment.
It's good, but not quite enough. Gotta break it down.
en - like "engineered" or "enforced", it implies effort being expended
shit - self-explanitory. I think the extra revulsion that comes with "shit" is a good feature.
ification - process of becoming
Platform Decay is only the "shit" part, and lacks the conversational encapsulation of "en-" and "-ification."
@PantsEnvy used “insidification” in another discussion in this thread, and I think it’s great because it sounds similar when pronounced out-loud, and captures the insidious nature behind it too.
Edit: I hope edits can catch new tags, but @GunnarRunnar and @jwrbrtn and @grumbel and @vord might want to see this too?
I really like that one, it highlights well how the services aren't turning to shit just because, but that it happens by design, where the goal is pretty much to fuck over the user.
Ps. Tags apparently work with edits too.
I do not. I know, "thanks for nothing", but this is just me putting my thoughts out there to see if I'm alone on this. Apparently not totally at least. And I do agree the term itself is very good as you almost intuitively can decipher its meaning.
I mean, I agree that it's not the greatest term but it's just a colloquial term. I've never really gotten the feeling it's exactly edgy, just casual and expressing exasperation.
It originated at a Cory blog post and kind of took a life of its own really. Harder to hate on people using a term when that term was pretty organically adopted.
I kinda agree. The term doesn't bother me at all, but I am an Internet Person and very comfortable with casual swearing. There are people out there in positions to maybe do something about it, though, who may have your same issue with accepting or discussing a concept that requires them to swear. I doubt there's another term as pithy as enshittification, but it still might be better to go with "benefit degradation" ("utility slide"? Idk, I'm not a words person) or something that won't make people cringe away from the subject.
I probably should've mentioned I'm with you when it comes to swearing. Doesn't really bother me.
It's just when it comes to actual, official use it might be a bit hard to take seriously. That's probably what bothers me. Or maybe I'm just up my own ass. Idk.
It's not quite, exactly, the same concept, but "the race to the bottom" is a well-established expression that refers to a similar capitalistic desire to find the absolute minimum effort required for maximum profit.
A lot of it isn't really about expending minimum effort. Reddit didn't make new reddit and the app in order to spend less energy. It's more about controlling the platform and appealing to the least common denominator.
I like to think of it as sort of a cross between onomatopoeia and a recursive acronym like GNU. It sounds kind of like the thing it's describing and contains a bit of what its describing within itself.
Topically, I consider platforms like YouTube, TikTok and Facebook creating a chilling effect of over-the-top self-censorship to be a major form of enshittification. The companies are so afraid advertisers won't like simple words, and users are afraid of having their posts algorithmically banished, that many people are writing things like "s*x" and "sh*t" now, which I consider to be patently absurd. And it's carrying over into other contexts, out of habit.
I'm the opposite. Most people swear, many swear a great deal. Culturally in my country (Scotland) swearing is something virtually everyone does publicly and it's become a bit of a joke that the word 'fuck' is practically punctuation for some dialects particularly in Glaswegian and Dundonian dialects. I don't find it edgy I find it perfectly normal and if anything I find the absence of it quite distracting in media because my brain just immediately detects it as anomalous.
If you want a more polite term, perhaps commidifying. Or over/excessive commercializing? Something along those lines?
Enshitification I think is fine for informal discussion.
I haven't watched the video yet, but I feel the tech and tools are already in place for people to take back the web so to speak. People just need to rethink how to use existing avenues to do it.
If I were to make a web show, I might upload my videos via bittorent and use YouTube as a means to provide status updates, summary of an episode, etc. and direct people to where they can download my stuff.
Put two links in the video description. One with ads and one direct link and give people the choice to support me via clicking the ad link. And or links to PayPal, venmo, I think I've seen a site called tipjar, and so on and be transparent and tell people what ways they can support me.
Or if they can't afford it, but want to contribute somehow just help by seeding videos. I get there's alternatives to YouTube, but YouTube is still incredibly popular. My idea is instead of remaining at the sole mercy of YouTube, just use it direct traffic to your content elsewhere instead of having it directly on that site.
Before search engines were a thing, web rings were a thing and web directories like dmoz/curlie.
Lots of people upset with Google which used to have a pretty decent engine. To me it seems like all the ones I'm aware of are lackluster in one way or another, so perhaps it's time for web directories to make a comeback.
Nothing stopping anyone from getting a web host and making their own curated directory of websites. Instead of trying to cover everything like curlie, a person could focus on a specific topic.
Maybe you enjoy fishing but don't want to make your own website about it in depth, make a directory site with links to other's sites that you feel cover the subject matter well.
Or maybe a person that's tired of all the excessive ads, images, videos and what not and wants to curate a directory of minimalist text only sites about whatever. Maybe be proactive about having archive.org crawling and backing up such sites.
In turn people could trade links with different specialty directories.
I mentioned web directories because it's something I've considered doing off and on.