List of the most deadly states for pedestrians this year: https://www.axios.com/2023/06/27/pedestrians-deadliest-states Does anyone have further insight?
As a Floridian, this makes sense. Very little of my city is actually walkable. We've got lots of roads without sidewalks, 4+ lane roads with infrequent crosswalks (encouraging jay walking), and...
As a Floridian, this makes sense. Very little of my city is actually walkable. We've got lots of roads without sidewalks, 4+ lane roads with infrequent crosswalks (encouraging jay walking), and from what I can tell, relatively lax driver's ed.
It's also extremely hot, especially near the asphalt, and there's not nearly enough tree cover. The infrequent crosswalks wouldn't be so bad if walking an extra 200 feet didn't feel like going...
It's also extremely hot, especially near the asphalt, and there's not nearly enough tree cover. The infrequent crosswalks wouldn't be so bad if walking an extra 200 feet didn't feel like going from lightly toasted to extra crispy.
I recently moved from Florida to a smallish town in Sweden and the difference is absolute night and day. I walk everywhere here, no need for a car. If I'm not sure where I'm going I have to be careful not to stand too near the road while I look aeound, as cars will stop if they think there's any chance I'm going to cross. I feel so much safer walking here than I ever did back home. It's also just much more pleasant.
Dang, I'm so used to the heat being ever present that I didn't even think about that being a factor. Yeah, when a place isn't very walkable but you're desperate to get to some air conditioning,...
Dang, I'm so used to the heat being ever present that I didn't even think about that being a factor. Yeah, when a place isn't very walkable but you're desperate to get to some air conditioning, it's very easy to start taking shortcuts that aren't made for pedestrians. (The blame falls entirely on cities being designed this way, don't get me wrong - people are pushed into dangerous situations through no fault of their own.)
As someone who lives in a temperate climate where were have some very hot days and very cold days every year (temperatures range from about 0-100F over the course of a year), I notice this the...
Dang, I'm so used to the heat being ever present that I didn't even think about that being a factor.
As someone who lives in a temperate climate where were have some very hot days and very cold days every year (temperatures range from about 0-100F over the course of a year), I notice this the most when I walk across parking lots in the summer-- short walks across large, hot parking lots are a million times worse than walking several miles around a neighborhood (which typically has trees and sidewalks where I am) during the winter/spring/fall.
In the south where it's always hot and there are few trees, sidewalks, and crosswalks, I'd expect walking to be miserable and I understand why walking rates are so low and obesity rates are so high. Where I live (a city in New Jersey with a nice, big, walkable downtown) walking is actually a pleasant experience. That's the way walking should be, imo.
Moving from Florida to Sweden must have been quite a change. The idea of cars stopping just out of caution sounds like my dream. I do a lot of bicycling, and the number of cars that won't even...
Moving from Florida to Sweden must have been quite a change. The idea of cars stopping just out of caution sounds like my dream. I do a lot of bicycling, and the number of cars that won't even move over slightly when passing me (even when there's another open lane), is shocking. But it also makes the pedestrian and bicyclist death statistics completely believable (if not underreported).
As a driver (and cyclist) the idea of not giving cyclists a lot of space makes me very uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel like some people want to cause accidents and get a thrill out of the thought...
the number of cars that won't even move over slightly when passing me (even when there's another open lane), is shocking
As a driver (and cyclist) the idea of not giving cyclists a lot of space makes me very uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel like some people want to cause accidents and get a thrill out of the thought of harming another person.
As a driver who tries to be cautious about cyclists, I'm also baffled by how many cyclists don't wear helmets, run reds and stop signs, and don't show turn signals in traffic where there isn't a...
As a driver who tries to be cautious about cyclists, I'm also baffled by how many cyclists don't wear helmets, run reds and stop signs, and don't show turn signals in traffic where there isn't a dedicated bike lane. I've almost run over a few bicyclists who have flat-out run red lights in my area while I'm already in the intersection and they decided they didn't want to wait their turn at their lights and then get mad at me.
It's been a massive change, and one that I absolutely recommend. I can't imagine anything that could convince me to move back to Florida. The walkability isn't the only reason for that, but it's...
It's been a massive change, and one that I absolutely recommend. I can't imagine anything that could convince me to move back to Florida. The walkability isn't the only reason for that, but it's major factor.
Here, if you're in the city or any of the suburbs there's a bike lane, which is next to the sidewalk and separated from the road. I've only seen roads without both a sidewalk and a bike lane well outside the city, where you'd probably want to take a bus or a train to get anywhere anyway.
Sounds like my dream come true! Unfortunately for me, moving to a country like that would not be feasible - I don't have a particularly in-demand skill set that they are looking for, and I don't...
Sounds like my dream come true! Unfortunately for me, moving to a country like that would not be feasible - I don't have a particularly in-demand skill set that they are looking for, and I don't have enough money to make up for it. Perhaps some day though! :-)
As somebody stuck in the unforgiving swamplands of South Florida with our two seasons (Summer and Summer-er) moving to somewhere in Scandinavia has always been in the back of my head. For the time...
As somebody stuck in the unforgiving swamplands of South Florida with our two seasons (Summer and Summer-er) moving to somewhere in Scandinavia has always been in the back of my head. For the time being, we're staying put since our family business is here and uprooting the kids and their relationships doesn't feel great, but perhaps in some future we'll be bold enough. It really does seem like a more sane and overall lovely place. Congrats on the move!
Apologies in advance if I'm taking this conversation too far off topic. I'm new to Tildes and not sure yet where that line is. Depending on how old the kids are, they might be happy with the move....
Apologies in advance if I'm taking this conversation too far off topic. I'm new to Tildes and not sure yet where that line is.
Depending on how old the kids are, they might be happy with the move. College is so much cheaper here, they're way less likely to end up buried under loan debt. If they've got enough time for your family to get citizenship before they start, they may not have to pay at all. They may even get paid to go. When I was a kid that would have massively influenced me, but I might have been unusually concerned about debt.
Jay walking is just another example of corporate interests trumping human interests. Until and unless we get large business interests out of government, humans will always lose.
Jay walking is just another example of corporate interests trumping human interests. Until and unless we get large business interests out of government, humans will always lose.
I mean, yeah... but also kind of no. The UK for example simply does not have that concept at all, and I wouldn't say large business interests aren't well and truly entrenched in government.
I mean, yeah... but also kind of no. The UK for example simply does not have that concept at all, and I wouldn't say large business interests aren't well and truly entrenched in government.
Is that possibly a side-effect of history, though? The US didn't have a heavily built environment at the time, and so auto manufacturers had a huge say in the development of transportation...
Is that possibly a side-effect of history, though? The US didn't have a heavily built environment at the time, and so auto manufacturers had a huge say in the development of transportation networks, and the laws around them, while the UK was already heavily developed. I honestly don't know.
I guess to some extent all of it is a side-effect of history and it's hard to compare countries directly. The rest of Europe mostly has a semi-jaywalking law where you're supposed to use things...
I guess to some extent all of it is a side-effect of history and it's hard to compare countries directly. The rest of Europe mostly has a semi-jaywalking law where you're supposed to use things like zebra crossings if you are within a reasonable distance of one. (Which btw I still oppose on principle. If it is close enough that it is indeed convenient people will use it anyway, if it isn't then it's wrong to punish people for not going out of their way for cars)
Strong agree that it's wrong to punish people for inconveniencing cars. People in cars are already inconveniencing others for their own convenience, via heavy infrastructure demands, pollution,...
Strong agree that it's wrong to punish people for inconveniencing cars. People in cars are already inconveniencing others for their own convenience, via heavy infrastructure demands, pollution, injuries and death, etc. It's super cool that a day's walk is now less than an hour's drive. So, just chill out about a few seconds delay.
Yeah exactly that. When you're in a motorised vehicle, you have an engine, you can get going in fractions of a second with a push of the foot or a twist of the wrist. Just chill.
Yeah exactly that. When you're in a motorised vehicle, you have an engine, you can get going in fractions of a second with a push of the foot or a twist of the wrist. Just chill.
The people I see crossing literally 3 meters away from the zebra crossing would disagree there. It's one of the things that annoy me. And then THEY GO IN THE DIRECTION THE CROSSING WAS! not even...
The people I see crossing literally 3 meters away from the zebra crossing would disagree there. It's one of the things that annoy me. And then THEY GO IN THE DIRECTION THE CROSSING WAS! not even saving time...
I don't think I've ever heard of anyone having to pay a fine or even getting into any trouble, though...
No, I think that is everbody's fundamental right. Of course it needs to be done with care, I'm not advocating people should be running out into the street blindfolded, but motorised traffic needs...
No, I think that is everbody's fundamental right. Of course it needs to be done with care, I'm not advocating people should be running out into the street blindfolded, but motorised traffic needs to be dethroned from the priority position it has in most countries. And yes, I do ride a motorcycle myself so I am "impacted" by that too.
Lax driver's ed and cheap licenses make up the majority of bad drivers and shitty car culture in the US. Obviously with the lack of public transportation, we have to have licenses affordable...
Lax driver's ed and cheap licenses make up the majority of bad drivers and shitty car culture in the US. Obviously with the lack of public transportation, we have to have licenses affordable because otherwise, there is a huge cost discrimination issue against low-income people who need a car/"reliable transportation" to be able to get to work or anywhere else. It's a huge chicken and egg issue.
I remember getting my license as a teenager in high school (but not being allowed to drive or have insurance) and also being in French class where we learned about French culture and language. what I remember most about France from that time was that getting a license was much more rigorous and expensive than it was in the US and being really confused why we let just about anyone have one here as long as they can pass the tests, which are often rarely properly enforced.
Where I am (Milwaukee), there's a lot of factors that make it dangerous for pedestrians (and other drivers), namely: "Passing on the right" culture At stop lights or single-lane streets, impatient...
Where I am (Milwaukee), there's a lot of factors that make it dangerous for pedestrians (and other drivers), namely:
"Passing on the right" culture
At stop lights or single-lane streets, impatient drivers frequently pass into the shoulder or bike lane in order to get around you. This is extremely dangerous as you risk hitting a cyclist or pedestrian nearby.
Long stretches of straight roads
This makes it easy to be at a much higher average speed without even realizing it.
A nasty habit of running yellow/red lights
There's a lack of red light enforcement here which means you can pretty easily get away with running a red light; super easy to clip a pedestrian that way.
Enforcement to stop these bad habits only goes so far. There's simply too many lax drivers who greatly outpace any current enforcement levels. There have been moves to help -- speed bumps, changing traffic light patterns, strategic placement of medians -- that can slow traffic in places with more pedestrians.
The article lays out the biggest problem, though -- cars in general are getting bigger, and that increases their lethality.
Not surprise seeing New York being considered safe considering the various laws in regards to this. And with that being said, it really depends on where you are living at. A QnA from NY...
Not surprise seeing New York being considered safe considering the various laws in regards to this. And with that being said, it really depends on where you are living at.
Except that the states keep their staffing so short that they can barely test the 16 year olds getting their license for the first time. It would be a nightmare. I'm pushing 60 and agree with you...
Except that the states keep their staffing so short that they can barely test the 16 year olds getting their license for the first time. It would be a nightmare. I'm pushing 60 and agree with you though.
Lived in AL when my kids learned. They had just closed most of the DL offices in the state including no offices in the 10 predominantly black counties outside major metro areas. We had to make an appointment 2 counties over weeks in advance. It's better now that they got slapped down by the USSC a bit about it. Glad I moved out of that shitty state.
The thing that solves bad driving isn't punishment (though that should still exist,) but infrastructure that makes it feel unsafe to drive in unsafe ways. Narrowed lanes, traffic islands, curved...
The thing that solves bad driving isn't punishment (though that should still exist,) but infrastructure that makes it feel unsafe to drive in unsafe ways. Narrowed lanes, traffic islands, curved roads, and other things that cause drivers to pay more attention to where they're going all help to increase attention and decrease accidents.
Also, parking spaces should be made shorter and narrower, and vehicles should have a hefty annual tax based on the weight and miles driven. It should be inconvenient and expensive to own an SUV or...
Also, parking spaces should be made shorter and narrower, and vehicles should have a hefty annual tax based on the weight and miles driven. It should be inconvenient and expensive to own an SUV or pickup.
I respectfully disagree, on two fronts. The police already have enough to deal with. Policing in North America is typically understaffed and undertrained. Advocating for a broadening of their...
I think this is another area where we just need to enforce existing laws to see a reduction in deaths, Pedestrian friendly laws and policies will only help if they're enforced.
I respectfully disagree, on two fronts.
The police already have enough to deal with. Policing in North America is typically understaffed and undertrained. Advocating for a broadening of their responsibilities eschews alternatives that may be more effective and places further strain on a burdened system.
The Netherlands has an interesting and effective approach: there are politie (police) and then there are handhaving (enforcement), separating policing concerns. The politie are armed,...
The Netherlands has an interesting and effective approach: there are politie (police) and then there are handhaving (enforcement), separating policing concerns.
The politie are armed, well-trained, and well-qualified. They handle criminal matters: arresting criminals, gathering evidence, taking reports, and so on. They respond to shootings, stabbings, muggings, robberies, and other violent and coercive crime.
The handhaving are unarmed and, well, not so well-qualified. The joke is that they're the kind of people who are too stupid to become proper politie. The handhaving handle civil enforcement: stopping and fining people for traffic violations; city ordinance violations like noise, public drinking, and littering; and other minor infractions.
Essentially you have differentiated police that respond to different severities of crime. It's a waste of resources to send a highly-trained police officer to deal with noise complaints. It'd be like asking a staff engineer to go handle front desk reception.
(Well, there are the true elite paramilitary police, the Koninklijke Marechaussee, which handles international crime and protects nationally-important sites, like palaces and airports, and VIPs. So kind of like the FBI and Secret Service rolled up in one.)
It makes a lot more sense from an HR standpoint. US police are generally middlingly-trained and are given low and high-level responsibilities, resulting in many police being simultaneously over...
It makes a lot more sense from an HR standpoint. US police are generally middlingly-trained and are given low and high-level responsibilities, resulting in many police being simultaneously over and under-qualified. I think it is unsurprising that police underperform in the US and why so many are burned out and leaving the field.
If the same conditions were reproduced in a private work environment, the same phenomenon would be occur. It's universally important in any workplace to match people by their aptitude and motivations with the right jobs and responsibilities.
List of the most deadly states for pedestrians this year:
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/27/pedestrians-deadliest-states
Does anyone have further insight?
As a Floridian, this makes sense. Very little of my city is actually walkable. We've got lots of roads without sidewalks, 4+ lane roads with infrequent crosswalks (encouraging jay walking), and from what I can tell, relatively lax driver's ed.
It's also extremely hot, especially near the asphalt, and there's not nearly enough tree cover. The infrequent crosswalks wouldn't be so bad if walking an extra 200 feet didn't feel like going from lightly toasted to extra crispy.
I recently moved from Florida to a smallish town in Sweden and the difference is absolute night and day. I walk everywhere here, no need for a car. If I'm not sure where I'm going I have to be careful not to stand too near the road while I look aeound, as cars will stop if they think there's any chance I'm going to cross. I feel so much safer walking here than I ever did back home. It's also just much more pleasant.
Dang, I'm so used to the heat being ever present that I didn't even think about that being a factor. Yeah, when a place isn't very walkable but you're desperate to get to some air conditioning, it's very easy to start taking shortcuts that aren't made for pedestrians. (The blame falls entirely on cities being designed this way, don't get me wrong - people are pushed into dangerous situations through no fault of their own.)
As someone who lives in a temperate climate where were have some very hot days and very cold days every year (temperatures range from about 0-100F over the course of a year), I notice this the most when I walk across parking lots in the summer-- short walks across large, hot parking lots are a million times worse than walking several miles around a neighborhood (which typically has trees and sidewalks where I am) during the winter/spring/fall.
In the south where it's always hot and there are few trees, sidewalks, and crosswalks, I'd expect walking to be miserable and I understand why walking rates are so low and obesity rates are so high. Where I live (a city in New Jersey with a nice, big, walkable downtown) walking is actually a pleasant experience. That's the way walking should be, imo.
Moving from Florida to Sweden must have been quite a change. The idea of cars stopping just out of caution sounds like my dream. I do a lot of bicycling, and the number of cars that won't even move over slightly when passing me (even when there's another open lane), is shocking. But it also makes the pedestrian and bicyclist death statistics completely believable (if not underreported).
As a driver (and cyclist) the idea of not giving cyclists a lot of space makes me very uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel like some people want to cause accidents and get a thrill out of the thought of harming another person.
As a driver who tries to be cautious about cyclists, I'm also baffled by how many cyclists don't wear helmets, run reds and stop signs, and don't show turn signals in traffic where there isn't a dedicated bike lane. I've almost run over a few bicyclists who have flat-out run red lights in my area while I'm already in the intersection and they decided they didn't want to wait their turn at their lights and then get mad at me.
It's been a massive change, and one that I absolutely recommend. I can't imagine anything that could convince me to move back to Florida. The walkability isn't the only reason for that, but it's major factor.
Here, if you're in the city or any of the suburbs there's a bike lane, which is next to the sidewalk and separated from the road. I've only seen roads without both a sidewalk and a bike lane well outside the city, where you'd probably want to take a bus or a train to get anywhere anyway.
Sounds like my dream come true! Unfortunately for me, moving to a country like that would not be feasible - I don't have a particularly in-demand skill set that they are looking for, and I don't have enough money to make up for it. Perhaps some day though! :-)
As somebody stuck in the unforgiving swamplands of South Florida with our two seasons (Summer and Summer-er) moving to somewhere in Scandinavia has always been in the back of my head. For the time being, we're staying put since our family business is here and uprooting the kids and their relationships doesn't feel great, but perhaps in some future we'll be bold enough. It really does seem like a more sane and overall lovely place. Congrats on the move!
Apologies in advance if I'm taking this conversation too far off topic. I'm new to Tildes and not sure yet where that line is.
Depending on how old the kids are, they might be happy with the move. College is so much cheaper here, they're way less likely to end up buried under loan debt. If they've got enough time for your family to get citizenship before they start, they may not have to pay at all. They may even get paid to go. When I was a kid that would have massively influenced me, but I might have been unusually concerned about debt.
cough DeSantis cough
Luckily I still have a legal residence there and don't need to move back in order to vote against him.
If the situation wasn't so bleak for pedestrians, the concept of "jay-walking" wouldn't even need to be a thing to begin with...
Jay walking is just another example of corporate interests trumping human interests. Until and unless we get large business interests out of government, humans will always lose.
I mean, yeah... but also kind of no. The UK for example simply does not have that concept at all, and I wouldn't say large business interests aren't well and truly entrenched in government.
Is that possibly a side-effect of history, though? The US didn't have a heavily built environment at the time, and so auto manufacturers had a huge say in the development of transportation networks, and the laws around them, while the UK was already heavily developed. I honestly don't know.
I guess to some extent all of it is a side-effect of history and it's hard to compare countries directly. The rest of Europe mostly has a semi-jaywalking law where you're supposed to use things like zebra crossings if you are within a reasonable distance of one. (Which btw I still oppose on principle. If it is close enough that it is indeed convenient people will use it anyway, if it isn't then it's wrong to punish people for not going out of their way for cars)
Strong agree that it's wrong to punish people for inconveniencing cars. People in cars are already inconveniencing others for their own convenience, via heavy infrastructure demands, pollution, injuries and death, etc. It's super cool that a day's walk is now less than an hour's drive. So, just chill out about a few seconds delay.
Yeah exactly that. When you're in a motorised vehicle, you have an engine, you can get going in fractions of a second with a push of the foot or a twist of the wrist. Just chill.
The people I see crossing literally 3 meters away from the zebra crossing would disagree there. It's one of the things that annoy me. And then THEY GO IN THE DIRECTION THE CROSSING WAS! not even saving time...
I don't think I've ever heard of anyone having to pay a fine or even getting into any trouble, though...
No, I think that is everbody's fundamental right. Of course it needs to be done with care, I'm not advocating people should be running out into the street blindfolded, but motorised traffic needs to be dethroned from the priority position it has in most countries. And yes, I do ride a motorcycle myself so I am "impacted" by that too.
Lax driver's ed and cheap licenses make up the majority of bad drivers and shitty car culture in the US. Obviously with the lack of public transportation, we have to have licenses affordable because otherwise, there is a huge cost discrimination issue against low-income people who need a car/"reliable transportation" to be able to get to work or anywhere else. It's a huge chicken and egg issue.
I remember getting my license as a teenager in high school (but not being allowed to drive or have insurance) and also being in French class where we learned about French culture and language. what I remember most about France from that time was that getting a license was much more rigorous and expensive than it was in the US and being really confused why we let just about anyone have one here as long as they can pass the tests, which are often rarely properly enforced.
Where I am (Milwaukee), there's a lot of factors that make it dangerous for pedestrians (and other drivers), namely:
Enforcement to stop these bad habits only goes so far. There's simply too many lax drivers who greatly outpace any current enforcement levels. There have been moves to help -- speed bumps, changing traffic light patterns, strategic placement of medians -- that can slow traffic in places with more pedestrians.
The article lays out the biggest problem, though -- cars in general are getting bigger, and that increases their lethality.
Not surprise seeing New York being considered safe considering the various laws in regards to this. And with that being said, it really depends on where you are living at.
A QnA from NY government: https://www.ny.gov/pedestrian-safety/additional-information
Except that the states keep their staffing so short that they can barely test the 16 year olds getting their license for the first time. It would be a nightmare. I'm pushing 60 and agree with you though.
Lived in AL when my kids learned. They had just closed most of the DL offices in the state including no offices in the 10 predominantly black counties outside major metro areas. We had to make an appointment 2 counties over weeks in advance. It's better now that they got slapped down by the USSC a bit about it. Glad I moved out of that shitty state.
The thing that solves bad driving isn't punishment (though that should still exist,) but infrastructure that makes it feel unsafe to drive in unsafe ways. Narrowed lanes, traffic islands, curved roads, and other things that cause drivers to pay more attention to where they're going all help to increase attention and decrease accidents.
Also, parking spaces should be made shorter and narrower, and vehicles should have a hefty annual tax based on the weight and miles driven. It should be inconvenient and expensive to own an SUV or pickup.
I respectfully disagree, on two fronts.
The Netherlands has an interesting and effective approach: there are politie (police) and then there are handhaving (enforcement), separating policing concerns.
The politie are armed, well-trained, and well-qualified. They handle criminal matters: arresting criminals, gathering evidence, taking reports, and so on. They respond to shootings, stabbings, muggings, robberies, and other violent and coercive crime.
The handhaving are unarmed and, well, not so well-qualified. The joke is that they're the kind of people who are too stupid to become proper politie. The handhaving handle civil enforcement: stopping and fining people for traffic violations; city ordinance violations like noise, public drinking, and littering; and other minor infractions.
Essentially you have differentiated police that respond to different severities of crime. It's a waste of resources to send a highly-trained police officer to deal with noise complaints. It'd be like asking a staff engineer to go handle front desk reception.
(Well, there are the true elite paramilitary police, the Koninklijke Marechaussee, which handles international crime and protects nationally-important sites, like palaces and airports, and VIPs. So kind of like the FBI and Secret Service rolled up in one.)
It makes a lot more sense from an HR standpoint. US police are generally middlingly-trained and are given low and high-level responsibilities, resulting in many police being simultaneously over and under-qualified. I think it is unsurprising that police underperform in the US and why so many are burned out and leaving the field.
If the same conditions were reproduced in a private work environment, the same phenomenon would be occur. It's universally important in any workplace to match people by their aptitude and motivations with the right jobs and responsibilities.