101 votes

Topic deleted by author

45 comments

  1. [22]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [4]
      The_God_King
      Link Parent
      And it isn't just the initial buy that has gone mad. Cars these days are so overly complicated that is has become nearly impossible to work on them yourselves. For years, even someone with...

      And it isn't just the initial buy that has gone mad. Cars these days are so overly complicated that is has become nearly impossible to work on them yourselves. For years, even someone with experience in fixing cars might hesitate to fix even something basic because you have to disassemble half the car to get to anything. Jobs that should take an afternoon take a week. But in the last few years it's gotten even worse. Parts that only dealers can get, special diagnostic software that requires licensing from the company. It's insane.

      It's the same problem you hear about with John Deere and the right to repair laws. These companies don't want you to own your own shit or fix something when it breaks. They want you to pay someone who works for them to fix it. I've been a gear head all my life, and I am very passionate about cars, and the state of the automotive industry is genuinely depressing.

      52 votes
      1. [2]
        Mournclaw
        Link Parent
        My brother used to work on cars for work and after doing it for a couple years and talking to more experienced people he went in a different direction. Basically everything requires you to reset...

        My brother used to work on cars for work and after doing it for a couple years and talking to more experienced people he went in a different direction. Basically everything requires you to reset SOMETHING on the computer anymore and is just getting worse. The head mechanic at the place he worked told him it's not a bad idea to leave the field because of how overly complicated and how many sensors are on every little thing anymore.

        10 votes
        1. arch
          Link Parent
          While your brother's experience is very true, it's not necessarily a reason to leave the field unless you know you are incapable to handling the computer side of the automotive industry. I work in...

          While your brother's experience is very true, it's not necessarily a reason to leave the field unless you know you are incapable to handling the computer side of the automotive industry. I work in a field where it used to be predominately mechanical on the construction side, and I have seen a number of people struggle and leave the business after the introduction of cell phones and laptops for various things, from time cards, to company cards, and even just email. Some of these people have complained about it to me while talking about how they were the best in the industry when they had a pocked full of quarters to call on the closest payphone, and a pager. Unfortunately any where they go now is going to need the basic skills of using a touch based cell phone and typing an email on a laptop. And yes, the things we repair now have sensor, which does make them more complicated, but it also significantly reduces the odds of people being injured.

          Resetting things in the computer on a modern car is no more complicated than resetting the OBDII codes were 20 years ago. You just need the right tools (which should be provided by the shop) and the right knowledge.

          I do agree with the overall assessment, there is less and less room in our modern world for someone who is simply mechanically minded and has zero knowledge of electronics. But even still, there are trades like carpentry, plumbing, and steel-work that come to mind for me where these people would probably excel.

          23 votes
      2. Hannibal
        Link Parent
        And the services integration they have means the manufacturer/dealers knows the issues with the car without even seeing it. I received an email from my dealer saying service is needed on my truck...

        And the services integration they have means the manufacturer/dealers knows the issues with the car without even seeing it. I received an email from my dealer saying service is needed on my truck and I have to schedule an appointment, never said what for. I recieved an email from Onstar days later, that I don't subscribe to, saying my oil life is at 17% and my tires need air...the truck hasn't even flagged the air pressure issue but they send me an email saying the truck need air added.

        Before this newer truck, I had a 2015 the dealer told me needed brakes. I asked how much for brake? $1200. I said no thanks, Ill do it myself. I went home, ordered pads ($40) and rotors ($200) from Rock Auto and waited until the pads actually failed. I went 8 months before needing to actually replace the pads, driving 35 miles per day. I didnt feel like I needed to replace the rotors, until 2 years after doing just pads when the rotors finally warped.

        1 vote
    2. [15]
      redwall_hp
      Link Parent
      All of the hatchbacks and smaller sedans are being dropped too, in favor of ungainly and dangerous SUVs. I really like my old Honda Fit, and am incredibly disappointed and angry that new ones will...

      All of the hatchbacks and smaller sedans are being dropped too, in favor of ungainly and dangerous SUVs. I really like my old Honda Fit, and am incredibly disappointed and angry that new ones will no longer be available in the NA market.

      My next car will most likely be the hatchback Civic Sport. It's significantly bigger, and enormous compared to a 90s Civic, but it's one of the sanest options nowadays...but its list price is drastically more expensive and certainly can't be had for under $30K in the current dealer market.

      26 votes
      1. [14]
        Jerutix
        Link Parent
        I was just driving my Fit yesterday and saying, "Do you think you have another 220k miles in you? I hope so!"

        I was just driving my Fit yesterday and saying, "Do you think you have another 220k miles in you? I hope so!"

        13 votes
        1. [13]
          BeardyHat
          Link Parent
          Honestly, I see no reason a modern car can go for an essentially "unlimited" amount of miles, no matter the make. It's all about how much money you want to put into it for all the stuff...

          Honestly, I see no reason a modern car can go for an essentially "unlimited" amount of miles, no matter the make. It's all about how much money you want to put into it for all the stuff surrounding the power train.

          I have a Fit with 130k on it and it's still great, even on the original clutch. Have a 2004 Dodge Grand Caravan with 230k and a 1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee, which I pulled the engine out of at 245k to rebuild due to a cooling issue. One of the things that absolutely amazes me is that this engine in my Jeep is well within spec still, even with all those miles on it. The only thing even near outside spec are the cylinder bores, but even there, they're just on the edge and still plenty enough to do a complete rebuild with no machining needed.

          If my Chrysler vehicles are looking this good with so many miles, I can't imagine my Fit won't be as good or better at the same. The only thing that should need to be accounted for will be suspension work and maybe odds and ends here and there (wheel bearings, alternators, etc).

          4 votes
          1. [12]
            AugustusFerdinand
            Link Parent
            Eventually there's a parts issue. I have an 1983 Tercel SR5 4WD wagon with somewhere in the neighborhood of 400k miles on it, the transmission was made for two years, is rarer than hen's teeth,...

            Eventually there's a parts issue.
            I have an 1983 Tercel SR5 4WD wagon with somewhere in the neighborhood of 400k miles on it, the transmission was made for two years, is rarer than hen's teeth, and near impossible to find in working condition because the number one reason people junk the car is the transmission going out due to lack of maintenance. If mine goes out I'll convert the car to RWD with a different transmission, but that's not within the capabilities of most. I also have a 300ZX convertible, parts for the convertible top are impossible to get, so mine is now a permanent open top roadster as I removed all of the convertible components and top.

            And with newer cars electronics eventually die with no options to replace or repair.
            I had a 2006 Saab 9-3 Aero (it was not well cared for by the previous owners) the module that communicates with the ECU to unlock the steering wheel and allow the car to start died. No replacements (there's a cottage industry to replace them now, but not at the time). No repair. No dealerships. And if you do find a junkyard car to use it as a replacement it also required the keys from the junkyard car (which are never present) to work on top of needing ECU reprogramming via software that no dealership and very few repair shops have any longer.

            I can go on and on with many other models over the last 30 or so years that have met early ends due to electronic parts that aren't replaceable or repairable in addition to mechanical parts that can't be found. At this point in time there's zero reason for any ICE car to have mechanical issues, it's electronics that will kill them all.

            14 votes
            1. [10]
              Akir
              Link Parent
              On the other hand, electronic parts are very unlikely to fail in the first place. A lot of people complain about electronics in regards to repairing anything, but the fact of the matter is that...

              On the other hand, electronic parts are very unlikely to fail in the first place. A lot of people complain about electronics in regards to repairing anything, but the fact of the matter is that the reasons why things keep getting replaced with electronics is in part because the electronic circuits are more reliable.

              Of all the people I have known and all of the cars they have owned, I have only had one single problem with an electronic component on a car - the charger in my Leaf, which failed because of an issue with the cooling system.

              When it comes to cars specifically, there's a limit to the kinds of repairs that technicians are willing to actually perform. Circuit boards can be repaired, but when my charger went out I didn't have the option to have them do that; it was replace it or nothing. This isn't just an electronics thing either, they did the same thing with the coolant pump that failed and also caused the issue with the charger. It was a tiny generic pump attached to a proprietary bracket and power connector that they upcharged by about 4-5x what the pump actually cost. Could they have just replaced the seals and impeller? Who knows; they didn't even look.

              3 votes
              1. [7]
                AugustusFerdinand
                Link Parent
                Things are most often replaced with electronics because it's cheaper not more reliable. The car repairs you've had are done because it's cheaper to replace than repair and the repair people are...

                Things are most often replaced with electronics because it's cheaper not more reliable.
                The car repairs you've had are done because it's cheaper to replace than repair and the repair people are technicians, not mechanics. They aren't taught to fix, they're taught to replace as labor is more expensive than the part. It takes more expensive specialization to find the fault then remove and replace the surface mount components in the electronics, which is why it's not done, so it makes them effectively non-repairable and that's assuming the component isn't filled with potting compound in the first place or it wasn't a trace on the board that broke.

                I've had VWs where half the gauges and odometer stopped working, which are extremely basic stepper motors fed a basic signal and the LCD screen from a calculator. Many Some BMW and MBs have electric water or oil pumps, both prone to failure while nearly no one replaces a standard oil pump in their car for the life of it and water pumps rarely fail mechanically, but via a bad gasket/seal.
                ECUs are a constant failure point and most ICE cars these days have multiple that communicate with one another to make the car work and huge swaths of the car won't when one dies or there's no power. An example is Tesla Model S and others with electric door handles, the accessory 12V battery dies and you have to pry the wheel wells open to access emergency releases to open the frunk, another electronic lock, to jump start a standard battery to open the doors of the car. Automatic transmissions and controllers are a top reason many cars are junked (most are even designated non-serviceable these days), manual transmissions need little more than maintenance to remain in service.

                I've had my hands on 3D printers that were six figure machines 15 years ago, they're dead junk now while my 100 year old design milling machine that was a tenth of the price new still works fine. A gas stove works every time, an induction cooktop does not. Etc. Etc.

                I'm not a luddite by any means, electronics have allowed huge advances in technology capability, and efficiency, but there are many places that they are purely a cost cutting measure and nowhere near as reliable as mechanical systems.

                6 votes
                1. [6]
                  Akir
                  Link Parent
                  Poor designs exist regardless if they are electrical or mechanical. Tesla's electronic locks are a pretty good example; they're more expensive but do not have all the features of the...

                  Poor designs exist regardless if they are electrical or mechanical. Tesla's electronic locks are a pretty good example; they're more expensive but do not have all the features of the electromechanical designs found in other cars.

                  Most people don't know how any of these things work so when they get told that it's some electronic thing or another that needs to be replaced so they assume that electronics == bad||unreliable. That's just simply not the case.

                  Just look at some of the examples you used. You compared a vastly more complicated device that only has a handful of years of development to a much more simple machine that has had a century of fine improvements, twice. Heck, a gas stove barely counts as a device; the only moving part on it is the valve that governs the volume of gas being emitted! And in your other example, the 3D printer is most likely to suffer from a mechanical failure rather than a failure with the electronic components.

                  For the record I am well aware of the economics of repairing electrical appliances as I literally grew up in an electronics repair shop. My point was that most people are not given that option and are generally unaware that it might even be an option to begin with.

                  1. [5]
                    AugustusFerdinand
                    Link Parent
                    Yeah, a valve that governs volume is a mechanical device, just as the knob on a water spigot is one. Replace it with a solenoid and it becomes a less reliable electronic device. 3D printing has...

                    Yeah, a valve that governs volume is a mechanical device, just as the knob on a water spigot is one. Replace it with a solenoid and it becomes a less reliable electronic device.
                    3D printing has been around since the 1980's, just not at a consumer level. The machine I worked on had electronics failures in communicating with sensors that died or the controller did; it was mechanically fine.

                    The thing is electronic repair is largely no longer a thing. No repair shop is testing every trace on the control board of a fancy new refrigerator. No mechanic is going to tear down the HVAC controls to get to the PCB when your auto-climate control can't tell hot from cold. A common complaint in auto HVAC systems is a flapping sound going off constantly because they elected to put a motor on the vent/recirculation system and it can't actually move the door any longer, compared to the one in my wife's Honda Fit that has a chunky direct mechanical link that doesn't need a button followed by signal to a control board to a command sent to a motor with a feedback sensor to tell the controller it's closed.

                    Electronics aren't inherently more reliable, they just tend to be cheaper now and are largely unrepairable. The unrepairable electronics are a large part of why the word e-waste even exists. Right to repair is great and something I push for, but the repairs are still just replacements of electronics, not circuit board repairs of individual components.

                    3 votes
                    1. [4]
                      Akir
                      Link Parent
                      A solenoid is not electronic, it's electromechanical. If it were to fail it would much more likely be a problem with the thing the solenoid is moving (the "valve" portion of the device) than the...

                      Yeah, a valve that governs volume is a mechanical device, just as the knob on a water spigot is one. Replace it with a solenoid and it becomes a less reliable electronic device.

                      A solenoid is not electronic, it's electromechanical. If it were to fail it would much more likely be a problem with the thing the solenoid is moving (the "valve" portion of the device) than the electrical parts (the windings on the coil).

                      3D printing has been around since the 1980's, just not at a consumer level. The machine I worked on had electronics failures in communicating with sensors that died or the controller did; it was mechanically fine.

                      If it had problems with communicating with a sensor, the most common reason for it is a frayed wire caused by it being repeatedly flexed. that is a mechanical failure just as much as it is an electrical failure. The thing that caused it to fail is literally called "mechanical fatigue". The most common sensors in 3D printers are mechanical switches (which have lifetimes in the thousands or tens of thousands of uses) or temperature sensors which are so reliable they don't generally have rated lifetimes. There are also magnetic and optical sensors which also don't generally have lifetime ratings and are more likely to fail because of external reasons (i.e. loss of magnetism or burnt out light sources).

                      Mechanical things are more likely to fail because they cannot be operated without applying force, which causes stress which causes them to wear or deform. Look at your car example: you said it failed because the motor can't move the flap anymore. Is that a problem with the electronic controls, or is it a problem with the mechanical parts?

                      The kicker, of course, is that not everything can be made electronic. There's no way to stop pressurized gas or water from going through a pipe by applying 3.3 volts to it. You can't compress air by shocking it with power. You can't hold a battery to your clothes and expect them to clean themselves.

                      Electronic repair is largely not a thing these days because the companies are intentionally making these products difficult to repair. There are many reasons for this but that's a whole long discussion that is best held elsewhere.

                      1. [3]
                        AugustusFerdinand
                        Link Parent
                        The solenoid moves a mechanical device, the mechanical device rarely fails, but the electric motor moving it often does. The sensors on the 3D printer were fixed, as was their wiring, and dead...

                        The solenoid moves a mechanical device, the mechanical device rarely fails, but the electric motor moving it often does.
                        The sensors on the 3D printer were fixed, as was their wiring, and dead when tested despite power going to them, but also required CANbus to communicate and didn't get a signal to actually operate either. Not a mechanical failure.
                        Being that the flap moves just fine, but it's the motor's inability to determine or perform the correct action and the sensors inability to indicate it's open or closed makes it an electronic failure. If the arm or flap had broken it'd be a mechanical one.

                        Electronic repair is largely not a thing these days because the companies are intentionally making these products difficult to repair.

                        Because they're made to be as cheap as possible and use the smallest components available, most often as a consumer demand, making repair more expensive than replacement, as was my point.

                        Electronic doesn't automatically mean more reliable, all electronics degrade with time/usage, and in 50 years time the classic cars driving around aren't going to be Rivians or Teslas, they're still going to be pre-electronics from the mid-20th century.

                        1 vote
                        1. [2]
                          Akir
                          Link Parent
                          Solenoids do not have motors. They are categorically different things; one produces rotational force while the other provides linear force. The only way for a solenoid to have an electrical...

                          Solenoids do not have motors. They are categorically different things; one produces rotational force while the other provides linear force. The only way for a solenoid to have an electrical failure is if the windings burn out, like I mentioned before.

                          Power is not the only connection that needs to be made for any given sensor, so it appears that you don't actually know what the actual failure point was for those sensors were.

                          You said in your comment that the flap couldn't be moved, so I'm sorry if I misdiagnosed that problem. But what is the thing that senses if it's open or closed? Most likely it's a mechanical switch.

                          This whole thing has devolved into nitpicking. I don't think that there's anything I can say to get you to understand what I mean or to change your position, so I'm going to just give up. Have a nice day.

                          1. AugustusFerdinand
                            Link Parent
                            Pedantry over nomenclature will get you nowhere. Motor = the mechanism that provides the force that moves the mechanical part. It, as in all electronics, weakens over time making the electrical...

                            Pedantry over nomenclature will get you nowhere. Motor = the mechanism that provides the force that moves the mechanical part. It, as in all electronics, weakens over time making the electrical part fail.

                            I mentioned that the sensor needed CANbus communication as well, which it wasn't receiving and since nothing mechanical can send CANbus, electronic failure.

                            The flaps use a position sensor, not a limit switch.

                            We're at an impasse, where you think electronics make something inherently more reliable or long lasting when it's obviously that's not the case and the landfills full e-waste prove such and no evidence to the contrary. I don't think that there's anything I can say to get you to understand other than suggesting you look around at the number of 50 year old electronics around vs 50 year old mechanical systems. So have a good one.

              2. [2]
                beeef
                Link Parent
                I have to disagree with you on the electronics not failing. My truck has 140k on it and it's needed two things: routine maintenance and replacement sensors. Every time my CEL goes on I just...

                I have to disagree with you on the electronics not failing. My truck has 140k on it and it's needed two things: routine maintenance and replacement sensors. Every time my CEL goes on I just replace the sensor and that fixes it. It's never been the actual, mechanical part that needs serviced. I would ignore it but the lights and beeping annoy me. I think in the past year I've replaced the O2 sensor, wheel speed sensor, some sensor for the transfer case, and now the tire pressure sensor batteries are going dead. I'm so tired of sensors. Completely useless junk.

                5 votes
                1. Akir
                  Link Parent
                  If your O2 sensor is constantly giving you problems, then you've probably got a problem with a mechanical part in your car. Replacing it is only going to be a temporary solution. My husband had a...

                  If your O2 sensor is constantly giving you problems, then you've probably got a problem with a mechanical part in your car. Replacing it is only going to be a temporary solution. My husband had a simelar issue on his old Juke.

                  Do keep in mind that you are getting features out of these parts that literally cannot be done mechanically. The oxygen sensor is so the ECU can "live tune" the engine to ensure you are getting the most efficient combustion, which makes the car more efficient and saves you money. And the TPMS system automatically monitors the tire pressure so you don't have to constantly check it. This stuff is far from being useless.

                  6 votes
            2. BeardyHat
              Link Parent
              That's fair! I suppose I haven't had that issue with my project cars yet, as I tend to choose stuff with a lot of support deliberately. Certainly some rare cars I'd love to have and have looked at...

              That's fair! I suppose I haven't had that issue with my project cars yet, as I tend to choose stuff with a lot of support deliberately.

              Certainly some rare cars I'd love to have and have looked at them in the past, but have discovered a lack of support, so I cross them off the list.

              1 vote
    3. stu2b50
      Link Parent
      We’ll see if it goes the other direction, especially as companies get better at making EVs (eg if they ever get to the point where China is now, where they can pump out cheap EVs like candy). But...

      We’ll see if it goes the other direction, especially as companies get better at making EVs (eg if they ever get to the point where China is now, where they can pump out cheap EVs like candy).

      But it’s a combination of the new market correcting for the used car market and increased demand for SUVs. The old adage was, your new car loses a third of its value when you drive off the lot. And it was right - how can the shitty 16,000-18,000 new cars compete with a 1-2 year old civic on a decent trim? It’s practically worse in every way.

      So they just stopped making them. If you wanted below 20k, it’s the used market for you. The used market skyrocketed during pandemic so maybe the new car bottom will come back but more likely the used market will just cool.

      The base trims these days for entry sedans like corollas and civics are quite competent compared to back in the old days when they were in that lower range and you were getting a rickety bucket of bolts for that trim level.

      Basically, what happened is that carmakers gave up the ultra low entry to the used market and moved their base trims up in features.

      I think it’s fine pre 2019. Getting a used car was just a better experience all around for that price. Now it’s a bit out of wack but the used car market is coming back down.

      16 votes
    4. Habituallytired
      Link Parent
      They're also getting bigger. I want more compact/sedans/hatchbacks on the road, not more SUVs and trucks. There's more regulation on those cars making them safer.

      They're also getting bigger. I want more compact/sedans/hatchbacks on the road, not more SUVs and trucks. There's more regulation on those cars making them safer.

      13 votes
  2. [3]
    tibpoe
    Link
    I see no reference at all in the article to how the value of the dollar changes over time. This idea is entirely lost on the article author, who in his very first statement fails to realize that...

    I see no reference at all in the article to how the value of the dollar changes over time. This idea is entirely lost on the article author, who in his very first statement fails to realize that he is arguing against his own point:

    Just five years ago, a price-conscious auto shopper in the United States could choose from among a dozen new small cars selling for under $20,000. Now, there’s just one.

    CPI data says that $20k in 2018 is equivalent to $24k today. I can readily find a listicle of 25 cars under $25k. There's no insight here, this is the same old "the prices are too damn high" shovelware that can be produced for almost nothing, and published in any year.

    Meanwhile, one of the citations in the article does actually provide a meaningful and interesting story: the Cox Automotive/Moody’s Analytics Vehicle Affordability Index. This index shows how small new vehicles have become steadily more affordable for Americans over the years, were massively disrupted by covid, and how prices are again very slowly falling back down.

    39 votes
    1. [2]
      crowsby
      Link Parent
      I was wondering the same thing since it seems like a major variable to omit from the story. Here you go. Basically it comes across as a bit of a cheat for media outlets. They can write this same...

      I was wondering the same thing since it seems like a major variable to omit from the story.

      Here you go.

      Basically it comes across as a bit of a cheat for media outlets. They can write this same story every year about how X item is more expensive than ever.

      11 votes
      1. raze2012
        Link Parent
        it's frustrating because spending power of the people are not keeping up with this inflation. That's why it feels so bad every-time.

        it's frustrating because spending power of the people are not keeping up with this inflation. That's why it feels so bad every-time.

        17 votes
  3. [5]
    gowestyoungman
    (edited )
    Link
    I give up on new cars. Ive been an avid 'car guy' for almost half a century now and I've never owned a new one and highly doubt I ever will. Even 20k for a Mirage is far more than Id ever spend....

    I give up on new cars. Ive been an avid 'car guy' for almost half a century now and I've never owned a new one and highly doubt I ever will. Even 20k for a Mirage is far more than Id ever spend.

    The 'trick', if you can call it that, is a) to have enough mechanical knowledge to do most maintenance yourself, saving yourself thousands over the life of the car (youtube DIY is gold) and
    b) to buy inexpensive quality used vehicles with a very good history and then run them into the ground.

    eg. Our 2003 Toyota Sequoia has over 400,000 km on it and was only $4500. But its very solid, well built SUV with a reputation for longevity and reliable drive train. The Sequoia's biggest repair in just over a year of ownership was replacing rear shocks for $300.

    Pro tip:: See carcomplaints.com to find out what common weak points are for any vehicle. Look for the "Seal of Awesome" for good picks, such as the 2003 Toyota Sequoia.

    The other advantage of owning such a cheap vehicle is that I never have to put collision coverage on them. Its not worth it. If I were to get in an accident and total one, its far cheaper to just write it off and walk away and go buy another cheap car than it is to pay full collision insurance on a new car. eg. My son's new car full insurance: $800/month. Me with cheapo insurance: $50/month.

    16 votes
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. gowestyoungman
        Link Parent
        He was young, inexperienced, had already had a minor accident and bought a fully loaded WRX Sti, so just about the worst possible combination for insurance risk. He got it figured out though, and...

        He was young, inexperienced, had already had a minor accident and bought a fully loaded WRX Sti, so just about the worst possible combination for insurance risk. He got it figured out though, and drives an older Toyota now :)

        7 votes
    2. Rocket_Man
      Link Parent
      I grew up with this DIY mentality but it hasn't been working for me. Basic maintenance is fine, but most work is probably better left to a professional.

      The 'trick', if you can call it that, is a) to have enough mechanical knowledge to do most maintenance yourself, saving yourself thousands over the life of the car (youtube DIY is gold) and

      I grew up with this DIY mentality but it hasn't been working for me. Basic maintenance is fine, but most work is probably better left to a professional.

      10 votes
    3. [2]
      BHSPitMonkey
      Link Parent
      Are you comparing full coverage to full coverage or only liability? You generally have no choice but to have full coverage when financing, which is going to be more typical for new car purchases.

      Are you comparing full coverage to full coverage or only liability? You generally have no choice but to have full coverage when financing, which is going to be more typical for new car purchases.

      1. gowestyoungman
        Link Parent
        Yes full coverage to only liability. That was my point. If you buy an older vehicle you dont have to have full coverage because it doesnt matter if the vehicle gets totalled.

        Yes full coverage to only liability. That was my point. If you buy an older vehicle you dont have to have full coverage because it doesnt matter if the vehicle gets totalled.

        3 votes
  4. [9]
    scroll_lock
    Link
    There was a period in my life when I was interested in getting a car, but the expense seems less and less worth it every year. I'd rather design my life to be car-free by living somewhere urban...

    There was a period in my life when I was interested in getting a car, but the expense seems less and less worth it every year. I'd rather design my life to be car-free by living somewhere urban and being OK with living in a smaller home, with less stuff. Worrying about acquiring and maintaining a vehicle (and all associated economic turmoil) does not sound like fun.

    Honestly, having grown up in a small town that was fairly car-dependent, I don't feel like I'm missing out on that much now. It's objectively inconvenient to get around sometimes, but I think forcing myself to walk more places has been good for my health and has encouraged me to get to know my community better. Instead of driving through nearby neighborhoods, I experience or inhabit them more consciously and fully: I walk by and notice the details of the architecture, sounds of children or animals, the way the light comes down on everything, and so on. I think it has, over the years, made me less... frightened (?) of urban areas I wasn't familiar with. Coming from a small, quiet town into big cities was intimidating. Spending more time on foot, unshielded from my environs and its denizens, I've had exposure to more daily manners of living that are simply invisible in a car; and I've learned more acutely how to engage with folks very different than myself. It has been enlightening to watch the way people change their behavior when they sit behind a windshield, enclosed within their climate-controlled box of metal and plastic.

    Years ago, as a child, I made the commitment to only purchase a vehicle if it were fully electric. I must have read about the technology in a science magazine and believed this would somehow happen before I turned 16. This was a moral decision made for purely environmental reasons—I thought I could buy a car for like $200, no problem—though I've held onto it into adulthood. With EV prices being what they are, I don't think the automobile is making a great case for itself in my life!

    14 votes
    1. [3]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [2]
        Habituallytired
        Link Parent
        I'd love to not own a car and just have much more reliable public transit. I think that's the biggest crux of it all.

        I'd love to not own a car and just have much more reliable public transit. I think that's the biggest crux of it all.

        5 votes
        1. raze2012
          Link Parent
          I wouldn't mind either. But expecting Los Angeles to overhaul their public transportation is a long shot, one I have little control ever. Even if they did, there's two other layers of problems to...

          I wouldn't mind either. But expecting Los Angeles to overhaul their public transportation is a long shot, one I have little control ever. Even if they did, there's two other layers of problems to solve on top of the transportation.

          2 votes
    2. [6]
      xk3
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I don't think density is a requirement for car-free life. Food deserts are a real problem in the US but they are more acute / endemic to large, segregated cities. There are plenty of small towns...

      car-free by living somewhere urban

      I don't think density is a requirement for car-free life. Food deserts are a real problem in the US but they are more acute / endemic to large, segregated cities. There are plenty of small towns in the US where everyone could bike everywhere in 15 minutes right now (without any major infrastructure or lifestyle changes aside from changing their grocery shopping).

      The problem for these small towns is that everyone thinks that they need a car. I think for many smaller cities in the US there are fewer infrastructure barriers to car-limited/car-free living but mentally the people are further away from that reality; stuck like you say "behind a windshield, enclosed within their climate-controlled box of metal and plastic". They think car-free life is only possible in cities but I dare say some small towns in the US are far better than many major US cities (in terms of walkability, bikeability, and nearness to multi-zoned areas [or at least the border areas between zoning areas]).

      2 votes
      1. [5]
        Kitahara_Kazusa
        Link Parent
        Generally you don't need a car for going places within a small town, even if it does make things easier, what you absolutely need a car for is any time you would want to leave the town.

        Generally you don't need a car for going places within a small town, even if it does make things easier, what you absolutely need a car for is any time you would want to leave the town.

        6 votes
        1. [4]
          TeaMusic
          Link Parent
          Yep, and small town people are much more likely to need to leave town than city people. I lived near NYC without a car for years, but I always knew that anything at all I needed I could find by...

          what you absolutely need a car for is any time you would want to leave the town

          Yep, and small town people are much more likely to need to leave town than city people. I lived near NYC without a car for years, but I always knew that anything at all I needed I could find by hopping on a bus/train and going into the city.

          Recently, my dad has had the misfortune of having uncommon health problems. While finding the appropriate resources for him, I realized how lucky we are to not be in a small town. Most small towns don't have medical specialists like cities do. What happens if you get sick? If you have a car, you can find somewhat who is out of town who is competent to treat your condition. If you have no car, chances are you're screwed.

          4 votes
          1. [3]
            scroll_lock
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Many (not all) small towns receive inexpensive bus service. Americans just have a thing about not riding buses. It's difficult, it's annoying, it's slow, and it's inconvenient, but I wouldn't...

            Many (not all) small towns receive inexpensive bus service. Americans just have a thing about not riding buses. It's difficult, it's annoying, it's slow, and it's inconvenient, but I wouldn't automatically say one is "screwed."

            For a completely random example, if you live in the extremely rural town of Emporium, PA with a population of 1,923, you can still access major metropolitan areas by public transit: a bus like the "Friday Morning SuperShuttle" (lol) followed by a connection with an Amtrak Thruway Connecting Service bus from DuBois will take you to Pittsburgh, PA (pop. 300k). It will take 12 hours, but you can still do it. If you need to get to Philadelphia (pop. 1.6m), the Amtrak Pennsylvanian train line is an option (another 10+ hours). (There seem to be alternatives to get to Harrisburg or even New York, equally slow.) Presumably none of this is a daily commute; and even small towns will offer local emergency transportation services for dire situations.

            With that said, I can't dispute how many places in the US are incredibly isolated from all forms of public transport. If you live in Carbon, WV (an unincorporated community whose Wikipedia page doesn't even list a population), you are pretty much screwed here. But for a reasonably significant portion of small American towns, even quite little ones in quite rural areas, there are technically transit options. I think the issue is often that people don't know what bus lines operate in any particular area, often because the information is not well-publicized. Also it's horrifically inconvenient because we have insufficient investment in transit service. Realistically, the slow and infrequent service is by far the biggest problem.

            I don't live in one of these small, isolated towns because I happen to do a lot of inter-city travel and am too impatient to take 3+ connections just to see a concert in New York. :P

            Edit: now I'm going down a Wikipedia rabbithole about Emporium, PA -> Joseph T. McNarney -> "the class the stars fell on"...

            1. raze2012
              Link Parent
              in a time where work is paying less and adding more stress, having to get on something that increases your commute time 2 fold, sacrifices privacy and potentially increases danger for certain...

              It's difficult, it's annoying, it's slow, and it's inconvenient, but I wouldn't automatically say one is "screwed."

              in a time where work is paying less and adding more stress, having to get on something that increases your commute time 2 fold, sacrifices privacy and potentially increases danger for certain groups is soul draining.

              as a reference, I lived in a very small town and my aunt traveled 30 miles to a larger (but still not urban) town for work. This is roughly 35-40 minute by car, one way. I looked up a loose bus route and we're talking a 1.5 hour commute, one way.

              And TBH that may be manageable. What's not manageable is that the bus schedule seems to be 3 hours apart. If you miss a bus or have some emergency or anything, you're basically missing half your work day without a car plan. That's where the real inefficiencies of buses in my area come from.

              1 vote
            2. Akir
              Link Parent
              I think the best way to understand what US public transportation is like is to look at this page from the Texas Department of Transportation, paying particular attention to the map. If you're on...

              I think the best way to understand what US public transportation is like is to look at this page from the Texas Department of Transportation, paying particular attention to the map.

              If you're on one of the marked points on that map you're probably in a reasonably large area and can get everything you need in the local area, and they likely have regular bus service that you can pick up relatively easily. Everything else is handled by a Rural Transportation Authority. But there are some areas that do not have coverage by an RTA. The areas that are not covered under RTAs most likely are still covered by the big TA in that county, but it's a YMMV kind of situation.

              If you are covered by an RTA, the services are much, much less convenient. Here is how one RTA handles transportation needs for regular people. I guess in some respects it could be considered to be more convenient; you don't have to shuffle bus lines, walk to different stops, and keep waiting - they just take you to where you want to go! But on the other hand, it doesn't really scale, so last minute weekend plans are almost certainly not going to be possible, and it's also easy to feel abandoned because it's not like you can wait for half an hour for the next bus to arrive, and if something happens and you can't make it to the pickup point on time you're probably going to suffer for it.

              Beyond that, it seems that for all intents and purposes, rail doesn't seem to exist for most of Texas. If you want to get somewhere, it's either busses, private shuttle services, or ridesharing apps. Galveston has a major cruise ship terminal, but it's far from the major airports, so if you want to get home after a trip that terminates there, your best bet is to get a private shuttle arranged from the cruise company.

  5. [4]
    radium
    Link
    Isn't the Nissan versa also selling under 20k?

    Isn't the Nissan versa also selling under 20k?

    3 votes
    1. radium
      Link Parent
      In fact, I also found a listicle with 20 cars under 20k listing.

      In fact, I also found a listicle with 20 cars under 20k listing.

      4 votes
    2. [2]
      JCPhoenix
      Link Parent
      I had the same thought. My dad told me about the Versa ages ago because they were so cheap. When I was looking to buy a new car at the start of 2021, I even looked at the Versa. Briefly, but I did...

      I had the same thought. My dad told me about the Versa ages ago because they were so cheap. When I was looking to buy a new car at the start of 2021, I even looked at the Versa. Briefly, but I did look (ended up buying a Civic).

      Going on Nissan's website, I'm seeing $15,980 for the base no frills model. In fact, all the Versa models/trims start at an MSRP below $20k. I get that MSRP isn't the end all be all price, but I do see new, current model years Versas being advertised at my local dealerships for below $20k. Just below $20k, but still below it. Though availability says "In Transit."

      2 votes
      1. st3ph3n
        Link Parent
        You'll never get one out the door that cheap though. Taxes, registration, bullshit dealer fees and mandatory add-ons, etc.

        You'll never get one out the door that cheap though. Taxes, registration, bullshit dealer fees and mandatory add-ons, etc.

        1 vote
  6. gzrrt
    Link
    We need to do a much better job at making sure car use is optional (or even discouraged) in any heavily-populated place. In the meantime it's good that electric bikes are getting more affordable,...

    We need to do a much better job at making sure car use is optional (or even discouraged) in any heavily-populated place. In the meantime it's good that electric bikes are getting more affordable, since they can at least replace a lot of shorter car trips

    2 votes
  7. [2]
    3_3_2_LA
    Link
    Isn't one of the major selling points of Hyundai's cheapest SUV (the Venue) also to be sub-$20K? https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/vehicles/venue

    Isn't one of the major selling points of Hyundai's cheapest SUV (the Venue) also to be sub-$20K? https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/vehicles/venue

    1 vote
    1. nukeman
      Link Parent
      Yes, although with the required fees it does go a bit above $20,000. My dad considered buying a Venue to replace his 2007 Toyota Yaris (rear subframe was rusting out, was gonna fail inspection)...

      Yes, although with the required fees it does go a bit above $20,000.

      My dad considered buying a Venue to replace his 2007 Toyota Yaris (rear subframe was rusting out, was gonna fail inspection) and be his new car for retirement. He ended up going with a Kia Soul, since he’d liked that model for a long time. Ultimately, the price differential was small, it had more space, and the fuel economy was about the same.

      I think this is one of the traps subcompact economy cars fall into: they often lack features, the fully featured trims are similar in price to something a bit nicer to begin with, and their size ends up compromising usability.

      2 votes