21 votes

Canoo files bankruptcy, claiming funding shortfalls

29 comments

  1. [8]
    ChingShih
    Link
    The writing has been on the wall for a while, but it's sad to see this one go under. Especially if they were really shooting for a $35K price-point. Lucid is not in the best place financially...

    The writing has been on the wall for a while, but it's sad to see this one go under. Especially if they were really shooting for a $35K price-point. Lucid is not in the best place financially either, and is only delivering ~10,000 cars a year (Rivian delivers around 50K a year). I had hopes that both Lucid and Canoo would succeed in different spaces, but it looks like the capital just isn't there to support even the limited competition in the EV space that there is.

    On a humorous note, I'll always be thankful that Canoo also gave us these great marketing photos of people in the pod car. I'm not claiming to have all the photos in the right order, but these are all that I could find. I'm pretty sure it's telling a deep story about rejecting the struggle of relationships built around materialism and instead, well, you'll see.

    18 votes
    1. [3]
      nukeman
      Link Parent
      I think Lucid will end up doing okay. I suspect they will merge with Rivian at some point, as they have complementary niches. Their manufacturing footprint would be complementary as well (Western...

      I think Lucid will end up doing okay. I suspect they will merge with Rivian at some point, as they have complementary niches. Their manufacturing footprint would be complementary as well (Western U.S., Midwest, East Coast; plus Lucid’s Saudi Plant).

      6 votes
      1. [2]
        Wafik
        Link Parent
        Why do you think Rivian would merge with Lucid? They have different approaches to EVs and if anything Rivian would probably be bought out by VW just based on their current partnership. Lucid and...

        Why do you think Rivian would merge with Lucid? They have different approaches to EVs and if anything Rivian would probably be bought out by VW just based on their current partnership.

        Lucid and Rivian merging would not bring any cash to that situation and that's what both companies need the most.

        5 votes
        1. nukeman
          Link Parent
          My logic is mostly based on their complementary product lines, and their mutual need to scale up. As far as cash, I think it would be a lot easier to attract cash as a company with two brands with...

          My logic is mostly based on their complementary product lines, and their mutual need to scale up. As far as cash, I think it would be a lot easier to attract cash as a company with two brands with different niches.

          Isn’t Rivian’s partnership with VW mostly on software? I suspect that VW would simply absorb Rivian and eventually kill off either it or Scout.

          3 votes
    2. AugustusFerdinand
      Link Parent
      Not every manufacturer needs to be high volume. While price points are obviously different, Lamborghini sold 10,000 cars for the first time in their history just last year.

      Not every manufacturer needs to be high volume. While price points are obviously different, Lamborghini sold 10,000 cars for the first time in their history just last year.

      4 votes
    3. [3]
      updawg
      Link Parent
      They definitely banged.

      They definitely banged.

      7 votes
      1. [2]
        AugustusFerdinand
        Link Parent
        Or he found out she voted for an insurrectionist and replaced her with something that would never betray him, a carbon fiber surfboard.

        Or he found out she voted for an insurrectionist and replaced her with something that would never betray him, a carbon fiber surfboard.

        8 votes
        1. cutmetal
          Link Parent
          My read is that the Canoo transforms hot girls into surfboards, sort of like a West coast Cinderella situation.

          My read is that the Canoo transforms hot girls into surfboards, sort of like a West coast Cinderella situation.

          6 votes
  2. [4]
    Eji1700
    Link
    I mean, almost every major project ever created shoots for a low price point. 99% of them also wind up massively above that price point. $35k for a vehicle is the sort of thing that requires vast...

    Especially if they were really shooting for a $35K price-point.

    I mean, almost every major project ever created shoots for a low price point. 99% of them also wind up massively above that price point. $35k for a vehicle is the sort of thing that requires vast economies of scale that just do not exist out of the gate, even now.

    9 votes
    1. [3]
      PuddleOfKittens
      Link Parent
      This is only sort-of true - conventional vehicles with all their onerous requirements will cost that much, sure. But there are several levers that could be pulled - range, max speed, size, layout...

      $35k for a vehicle is the sort of thing that requires vast economies of scale that just do not exist out of the gate, even now.

      This is only sort-of true - conventional vehicles with all their onerous requirements will cost that much, sure. But there are several levers that could be pulled - range, max speed, size, layout (see: the Microlino's door).

      A large vehicle with a max speed of sub-30km/h (sub-20MPH) is basically the definition of a golf cart, and costs ~10k.

      I'm not saying this is practical or even possible in our current society (speed limits also limit minimum speed above 30km/h in most places, weather events excepting), I'm saying our current society has snookered itself into making cars impossible to electrify with its self-imposed limitations.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        Eji1700
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        And is not road legal, nor does it comply with modern safety standards. One of the major reasons for the heavy increase in car cost is because they are MUCH safer, but that requires more advance...

        A large vehicle with a max speed of sub-30km/h (sub-20MPH) is basically the definition of a golf cart, and costs ~10k.

        And is not road legal, nor does it comply with modern safety standards. One of the major reasons for the heavy increase in car cost is because they are MUCH safer, but that requires more advance construction methods, materials, parts, and systems.

        Edit-
        and to be clear, even at 20 mph tbone or head on collision can be fatal. To be fair that's much less likely to happen since you'll have more time to react and almost all accidents occur after people slam on the breaks, but it doesn't mean you can just throw golf carts on the road and think things will be fine.

        Yes society has spread itself out in such a way that there are lots of cities where a sub 20mph vehicle would just not be a practical purchase, but if you want to see what your world looks like, it exists. It's called the Tuk Tuk, and is pretty popular in large swaths of asia. It's also pretty damn dangerous to be in any kind of accident in.

        Edit 2-
        For another data point, a brand new toyota corolla (with 0 frills) is somewhere between 22-25k. That is double or more than your golf cart, but I'd argue significantly more versatile given it can carry the same number of people much easier, and likely with a more reasonable level of cargo.

        This is, again, because of demand and economies of scale. 10k is nothing to sneeze at, but it's hard to compete when you have to sacrifice so much to hit your price point.

        5 votes
        1. PuddleOfKittens
          Link Parent
          Large swaths of asia are dangerous because the drivers are insane, the vehicles are bodged together (tuktuks being frequently a motorbike with a two-wheel carriage bolted to the back), and nobody...

          Large swaths of asia are dangerous because the drivers are insane, the vehicles are bodged together (tuktuks being frequently a motorbike with a two-wheel carriage bolted to the back), and nobody is prioritizing safety. If they were, they wouldn't stack 5 people on a motorbike. And "can be" fatal is true for bicycles too, but isn't a very good argument for safety.

          I think a car designed to be safe in collisions of 30KM/h would still be vastly cheaper than most EVs today (because that's an exponentially less ambitious target!), and today's golf cart is designed without safety in mind basically because it's not necessary on a wide-open golf course, rather than for any real impracticality as a goal.

          FWIW I don't advocate for switching everyone to a golf cart (Peachtree City already exists) - I advocate for switching everyone to public transport and using trucks/cargo vans only for literal last-mile delivery, when using pedestrian streets is hard to avoid. At which point you could easily impose a 20KM/h or even 10KM/h speed cap and it wouldn't be a big loss (but would be a huge gain in safety).

          4 votes
  3. [10]
    EarlyWords
    Link
    Yeah canoo was the one I bet on. Guess I'm getting my $100 deposit back. Sure it was a long shot and its design was goofy as hell and their management team acted like a car full of clowns, but...

    Yeah canoo was the one I bet on. Guess I'm getting my $100 deposit back. Sure it was a long shot and its design was goofy as hell and their management team acted like a car full of clowns, but nobody else is offering a simple no-nonsense fully electric city delivery vehicle.

    The discourse around the potential EV market infuriates me. I drive 40 miles/day house to house and I need to transport large freight. Yet everyone keeps making different flavors of futuristic sedans and mini crossover SUVs with bells and whistles very few of us want, and all the comments online are about the need for yet another commuter EV that fulfills ever narrower niches.

    But there are millions of delivery drivers like myself that need an alternative and so far it simply doesn't exist. The best I was able to do is a 2021 Chrysler Pacifica plugin. Its battery gives me 30 miles of range each day. So my gas use has already fallen to nearly nothing and I'm saving $650 in fuel costs each month. I wish the Mercedes Metris was electric. That form-factor would be perfect for every florist, handyman, caregiver, landscaper, etc. etc. on the planet.

    8 votes
    1. [5]
      ButteredToast
      Link Parent
      It might not be a perfect fit for your needs, but I’m looking forward to Rivian’s R3/R3X. As a hatchback with fold-flat seats roughly comparable in size to a VW Golf it looks to be a lot more...

      It might not be a perfect fit for your needs, but I’m looking forward to Rivian’s R3/R3X. As a hatchback with fold-flat seats roughly comparable in size to a VW Golf it looks to be a lot more practical than EVs have tended to be.

      It’s a longer shot but Telo looks promising too. Their main product is a little Mini Cooper sized truck reminiscent of Japanese Kei cars but I think they’re doing a micro van variant too.

      10 votes
      1. [2]
        ChingShih
        Link Parent
        I'm also looking forward to the R3's release. I think it is pretty interesting how excited people got about the R3 ... during the R2 reveal. That said, people have been bad about actually going...

        I'm also looking forward to the R3's release. I think it is pretty interesting how excited people got about the R3 ... during the R2 reveal. That said, people have been bad about actually going out and buying the quirky hatchbacks, quirky small sports cars, and other things that people fawn over online. Guess we'll see what happens.

        I was hoping that VW's ID.buzz would be a moderately priced analog to Canoo's pod car, but it's actually really expensive. I think we'll have to rely on Japanese (and maybe Chinese) manufacturers to deliver the really small Kei car-type vehicles. Would love to see some EV Kei car races. :D

        3 votes
        1. ButteredToast
          Link Parent
          I think what happens with the quirky hatches is that people like the idea, but then they see the price tag and change their mind. That might actually be Rivian’s biggest challenge with the R3....

          I think what happens with the quirky hatches is that people like the idea, but then they see the price tag and change their mind.

          That might actually be Rivian’s biggest challenge with the R3. With the R-1T/S and R2 they’re selling to a premium/luxury crowd which isn’t all that price-sensitive, but compacts of any sort have a much lower ceiling for the prices people find acceptable. Hot hatches aside, people buying small hatchbacks are looking for value in a way that shoppers of larger vehicles usually aren’t.

          So if it’s appropriately priced, I think it’ll sell like hotcakes, especially because it’ll probably still be one of the only of its kind at release (at present the only comparable EV sold in the US is the Hyundai Kona/Kia Niro).

          4 votes
      2. [2]
        cutmetal
        Link Parent
        https://www.telotrucks.com/ Those are neat. $41.5k for single motor low range, $50k for dual motor long range, before federal tax rebate. Seems really reasonable. Didn't see anything on there...

        https://www.telotrucks.com/

        Those are neat.

        $41.5k for single motor low range, $50k for dual motor long range, before federal tax rebate. Seems really reasonable.

        Didn't see anything on there about estimates on when they'd actually ship though, guessing it might be too early for that?

        3 votes
        1. ButteredToast
          Link Parent
          I think I remember seeing the end of this year somewhere presented as the time when shipping is estimated to begin, but don’t quote me on that.

          I think I remember seeing the end of this year somewhere presented as the time when shipping is estimated to begin, but don’t quote me on that.

          3 votes
    2. [4]
      SunSpotter
      Link Parent
      Any opinions on the VW ID Buzz? It doesn’t have the fastest charging, but it is completely electric. From what I can remember, I don’t think the price point is that far from the Pacifica.

      Any opinions on the VW ID Buzz? It doesn’t have the fastest charging, but it is completely electric. From what I can remember, I don’t think the price point is that far from the Pacifica.

      3 votes
      1. [2]
        nukeman
        Link Parent
        Very expensive in the U.S., and lackluster overall range (esp. for a minivan!).

        Very expensive in the U.S., and lackluster overall range (esp. for a minivan!).

        5 votes
        1. Akir
          Link Parent
          I am honestly kind of astonished with how poor VWs EV lineup has come along. By most accounts their EVs offer poor performance by most metrics, and in the US they are incredibly overpriced. It’s...

          I am honestly kind of astonished with how poor VWs EV lineup has come along. By most accounts their EVs offer poor performance by most metrics, and in the US they are incredibly overpriced. It’s particularly embarrassing since this is the company who pledged to make everything electric after dieselgate.

          3 votes
      2. EarlyWords
        Link Parent
        I was thrilled when I first learned about it. My first vehicle as a 16-year-old in 1985 was a ‘74 VW bus. But there is nothing bare bones or simple about the ID buzz. Definitely not a working vehicle.

        I was thrilled when I first learned about it. My first vehicle as a 16-year-old in 1985 was a ‘74 VW bus. But there is nothing bare bones or simple about the ID buzz. Definitely not a working vehicle.

        4 votes
  4. [6]
    gowestyoungman
    Link
    Good video by Tailosive about why Canoo didnt make it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO611a8kzPk&ab_channel=TailosiveEV To summarize: Not having a clear portfolio: They didnt focus on a singular...

    Good video by Tailosive about why Canoo didnt make it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO611a8kzPk&ab_channel=TailosiveEV

    To summarize:

    1. Not having a clear portfolio: They didnt focus on a singular product but tried to promote multiple bodies at the same time causing them to continuously pivot to try and secure more deposits.

    2. The products not having a competitive edge because they didnt stand out in any 'useful' way. Stylistically cool, but that's not enough.

    3. Poor leadership including the misuse of funds, particularly notable when the CEO bought a private jet for Canoo.

    Im still holding out hope for the Aptera, although I must admit my expectations are pretty subdued by now. The main difference being that Aptera has the fundamental feature that it is able to recharge itself by sunshine alone, and they have been VERY cautiously moving forward trying to avoid the same mistakes of the many failures (including their own) before them.

    6 votes
    1. [4]
      nukeman
      Link Parent
      Eh, I’ve been following Aptera since their first incarnation in the early 2010s. If they manage to get off the ground, I’d be shocked.

      Eh, I’ve been following Aptera since their first incarnation in the early 2010s. If they manage to get off the ground, I’d be shocked.

      5 votes
      1. [3]
        tauon
        Link Parent
        Same (although “only” known about them since mid-late 2010s). I’m thinking, if they’re still around and secretively cooking, that’s gotta be a good sign, right…?

        Same (although “only” known about them since mid-late 2010s).

        I’m thinking, if they’re still around and secretively cooking, that’s gotta be a good sign, right…?

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          gowestyoungman
          Link Parent
          They're not very secretive, they have active social media pages and website and they've been on a marketing campaign for ages. They just got major exposure at CES in Vegas and just had an article...

          They're not very secretive, they have active social media pages and website and they've been on a marketing campaign for ages. They just got major exposure at CES in Vegas and just had an article in Car And Driver, so thats about as exposed as it gets: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a63547148/aptera-three-wheeled-solar-powered-ev-first-ride/

          But they have the same challenges as everyone else, the main one being that costs keep rising and what was first reported to be a 25k EV is now a 40k EV.

          But on the positive side, they DO have their carbon molds made and pre production models were at CES, so they're not lacking exposure. Just money.

          One negative, that really bummed out a lot of interested parties, including me, is that the original intent was to have in hub motors in all three wheels. That changed and now the EV has a much more traditional front central motor with driveshafts to the front wheels. Its a tried and true system, but definitely lacks some of the appeal of the in hub motors.

          The one reason I still have faith in the two main founders is that they've already failed once, way back when Aptera was supposed to be a gas powered vehicle, so they know how hard of an uphill slog getting a car to market can be. AND the fact that they have planned for mass production from day one, instead of doing what many companies do, which is create a beautiful prototype and THEN try to figure out how to mass produce it, which is the hard part.

          1 vote
          1. tauon
            Link Parent
            That’s good to hear, so hey, thanks for letting me know! I don’t really have/use social media (does LinkedIn count…?), so from my point of view, they might as well have gone under. I’m very glad...

            That’s good to hear, so hey, thanks for letting me know!

            I don’t really have/use social media (does LinkedIn count…?), so from my point of view, they might as well have gone under. I’m very glad they haven’t! But this does serve as a reminder that I’m probably more out of the loop than most people on stuff like this, lol.

            (To be fair, ever since like, I wanna say 2020, 21?, I’ve stopped actively keeping up with them and a bunch of other things in the "cool/idea/project" department, too)

    2. EgoEimi
      Link Parent
      That's some real ego hubris. If I were to ever become an investor in the future, I'd make CEO ego investigation a key component of my research: is the CEO someone who knows they aren't guaranteed...

      Poor leadership including the misuse of funds, particularly notable when the CEO bought a private jet for Canoo.

      That's some real ego hubris.

      If I were to ever become an investor in the future, I'd make CEO ego investigation a key component of my research: is the CEO someone who knows they aren't guaranteed success and puts every cent into realizing their vision, or are they someone who just wants to play CEO and have the outward trappings and toys?

      5 votes
  5. Captain_Wacky
    Link
    I guess they were really betting on the samples the USPS ordered for R&D would really impress and lead to some massive work-order. Guess that fell through.

    I guess they were really betting on the samples the USPS ordered for R&D would really impress and lead to some massive work-order. Guess that fell through.

    3 votes