Saw this one in theatres a few weeks ago! I liked it, but it's been a hot minute, and I didn't take notes on my thoughts at the time. Couple quick points in the spoiler block below. 1. I'm not...
Saw this one in theatres a few weeks ago! I liked it, but it's been a hot minute, and I didn't take notes on my thoughts at the time.
Couple quick points in the spoiler block below.
1. I'm not fond of the implication that abstraction is irreversible. It really feels like Caine's arc is supposed to demonstrate redemption for one's acts, but where is that for Ribbit? And we never even _learn_ what happened to Queenie. Eternity is a long time to stay dead (or the next best thing).
2. OK but I still love Caine so I forgive Gooseworx for everything
3. The Jax character arc is ... interesting overall. Continuing from (1), it feels like the author is trying to say something about the magnitude of their crimes, but the point feels muddled. Cool to see more trans representation in media though!
4. Aww, y'all don't get to see the fish come back to tell you not to post spoilers. Now that the episode's out, it's probably kosher [to share it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXC7SIZrAc).
5. I think it was about a ~6.5/10 overall -- quite watchable, and enjoyable overall!
I don't think there was any special story to Queenie's abstraction. They seemed to be the last two of the original group, which was naturally a HIGHLY stressful experience and I think just reached...
I don't think there was any special story to Queenie's abstraction. They seemed to be the last two of the original group, which was naturally a HIGHLY stressful experience and I think just reached her limit.
Unless you mean her actual counterpart. She was happily married to real-Kinger, pretty sure the social media posts belonged to their daughters.
That said, I don't think abstraction is meant to tie into "redemption" like with Caine's return, but more just a physical manifestation of how mental health can reach a breaking point. That, and serving as an analogue for death.
I was so sure that Pomni might be able to pull Jax out and undo the abstraction, especially since it was so recent compared to all the other abstracted characters, but no. Genuinely sad about that. Jax's abstraction has been coming for a long time, but that flashback sequence just... Really hit hard. That talk with Ribbit was some of the rawest voice acting I've ever heard. I have some bigger thoughts I'll go into in another comment.
I hadn't heard about the fish telling people not to post spoilers, so thanks for sharing! Considering that the movie screening included both episode 8 and 9, it's pretty bad that the "no spoilers"...
I hadn't heard about the fish telling people not to post spoilers, so thanks for sharing! Considering that the movie screening included both episode 8 and 9, it's pretty bad that the "no spoilers" fish spoils the ending of episode 8. I see a lot of people in the comments of that video talking about how they got spoiled because they waited to see episode 8 in theaters. It also sounds like from the comments that there may have been additional scenes with the other fish or they may have put this spoiler warning in between episode 8 and 9 instead of at the beginning depending on which screening you went to?
np! I distantly recall that there was something, but it's been so long now that I've forgotten. I think a few of the comments noted that the full cam copy that was floating around has it, if...
np! I distantly recall that there was something, but it's been so long now that I've forgotten. I think a few of the comments noted that the full cam copy that was floating around has it, if you're interested?
Spoilers I think abstractions being actually reversible would create some problems. It would imply that Caine could revert them all along but chose not to. Which, not only would make his...
Spoilers
I think abstractions being actually reversible would create some problems. It would imply that Caine could revert them all along but chose not to.
Which, not only would make his redemption a bit harder to swallow, but also would be weird because he likes humans. You would think then that he would jump at the chance to fix the abstractions and bring them back.
Hmm. I think I'd disagree, but it's because I have a different interpretation of Caine's role in potential reversibility. An AU comic I read at some point put it well: Caine doesn't understand...
I think abstractions being actually reversible would create some problems. It would imply that Caine could revert them all along but chose not to.
Which, not only would make his redemption a bit harder to swallow, but also would be weird because he likes humans. You would think then that he would jump at the chance to fix the abstractions and bring them back.
Hmm. I think I'd disagree, but it's because I have a different interpretation of Caine's role in potential reversibility. An AU comic I read at some point put it well: Caine doesn't understand humans well enough to be able to do the in-depth emotional surgery to re-alive them, so he'd need the help of the more capable circus crew to do the heavy lifting. We already saw via Pomni's perspective that Jax is reachable, and from some art released post-ep 9, not continuously on a rampage or anything.
I dunno, I think it'd be cleaner from an overall message perspective to say that either (A) friendship and acceptance cures all (i.e. abstracted people can "come back" with enough love and time), or (B) some wounds can never be healed (i.e. Caine doesn't make a third act reappearance). I'd prefer A XD
A bit late, but I do want to pop in with my own perspective: I said this in another comment I just left talking about Jax's whole character arc, but I've always seen abstraction as basically an...
A bit late, but I do want to pop in with my own perspective:
I said this in another comment I just left talking about Jax's whole character arc, but I've always seen abstraction as basically an amalgamation of suicide and mental breakdowns. While Caine did "die", he didn't abstract, he was kinda deleted by another individual (still no clue how he came back), so his circumstances are different from the abstractions who "die" due to their own internal states. Redemption and the power of friendship aren't really factors in undoing death, or helping someone whose mind is irreversibly shattered. You can only help them before they reach that point.
And to that end, as much as I wish Pomni could have brought Jax back... The more I think about it, the more I realize that would undo their intended message: that avoiding reality only leads to harm. We need to confront it, no matter how scary it is or how much it hurts. Because if we just bottle up and ignore our worries and stress, if we keep pushing everyone else away, we're left with nothing but unbearable pain that we can't endure on our own. And some people make irreversible decisions.
Suicide is one of those things that can't be undone. Once you die, that's it. There's no do-over, no second chance. Many people who survive attempts report feeling regret at the last second, and I think that's the whole point of the final scene between Jax and Pomni: Jax DID feel regret about never opening up to Pomni and the others, and didn't want to actually die... but by that point it was too late.
Jax's character arc is a cautionary tale to seek help before it's too late. So having Pomni manage to save Jax at that point, while the happier ending, would weaken that aesop. Because far too many people only realize that in their final moments, just like Jax did.
And that's why... I can accept this tragedy. It's not tragedy for the sole sake of angst and suffering, but to tell a message and story that far too many people have experienced personally.
Your explanation is very well thought out, and is actually genuinely compelling. That's a darker theme than what I'd read into TADC, but I can definitely appreciate the message, and it feels more...
Your explanation is very well thought out, and is actually genuinely compelling. That's a darker theme than what I'd read into TADC, but I can definitely appreciate the message, and it feels more mature tbh than the "happy ending" I was hoping for.
But, like, I really really wanted a happy ending XD
I know, saaaame..... I want a happy ending for Jax, but at the same time, it's so rare to see a death be the end of a character arc rather than a vehicle to move the story or other characters....
I know, saaaame..... I want a happy ending for Jax, but at the same time, it's so rare to see a death be the end of a character arc rather than a vehicle to move the story or other characters. It's a proper, well-written tragedy, which is so hard to get right. Like, I hate it because it's so sad, but not in the way I hate other deaths, you know what I mean??
But screw it, that's what fan fiction is for!
And hey, on the unlikely chance there's a season 2, maybe they can focus on the mental breakdown side of abstraction over the suicide part. Then they can find a way to reverse it through an analog to mental health treatment and healing. Been on my mind since I saw those figures of partially abstracted characters.
Or maybe the shadow giraffes can begin talking and interacting with everyone again, that is also acceptable to me
Click to expand spoiler. Jax's shadow giraffe seemed to be able to calmly get some shut eye. And the other giraffes looked happy in their respective aquaria. We know that Pomni was able to reach...
Click to expand spoiler.
Jax's shadow giraffe seemed to be able to calmly get some shut eye. And the other giraffes looked happy in their respective aquaria.
We know that Pomni was able to reach some parts of Jax via giraffes: it made her glitch but Caine can fix that pain.
So while I accept that abstraction is permanent, it does not mean that they are forgotten and doomed. Maybe it's a different state of being in the digital circus that doesn't have to be frightening and painful and lonely. Maybe the giraffes can communicate with each other.
I can also accept the shadow giraffes learning to communicate with each other. They're not totally "gone" after all, as seen by Jax and Kinger's story about his final interaction with Queenie. Now...
I can also accept the shadow giraffes learning to communicate with each other. They're not totally "gone" after all, as seen by Jax and Kinger's story about his final interaction with Queenie.
Now that I think about it, abstraction also seems to represent how death lets people finally find peace. They no longer need to worry about everything so much, they can just rest. And honestly, they're actually rather pretty in the aquarium scenes.
Also saw this one, but I had to cram the first 7 episodes into just a few days before the release. It was good, I thought. I noticed that it was intensely melodramatic, with each major character...
Also saw this one, but I had to cram the first 7 episodes into just a few days before the release. It was good, I thought. I noticed that it was intensely melodramatic, with each major character getting an "I learned something today" moment. And I think the Caine redemption could have been more sacrificial.
Big Kinger fan though. Also had to convince my kids that a certain character is trans. Resent my Xennial ass all you want, progeny!
It was really good. Saw it in theaters. It's unfortunate that abstraction is irreversible, but of the things it's definitely a parallel to (mainly suicide and dementia), none of them are...
It was really good. Saw it in theaters. It's unfortunate that abstraction is irreversible, but of the things it's definitely a parallel to (mainly suicide and dementia), none of them are reversible, so I don't know what people were expecting tbh.
Also, deeply wild that some people still think Jax isn't trans. People can really delude themselves into anything if it means pretending minorities don't exist, huh?
The kids at my viewing definitely knew what was up, though, lol. One behind me was literally repeatedly whisper-shouting "oh my god transfemme jax transfemme jax!!!!" 😂
I'm not going to openly discuss this so it'll be in a tag for people who haven't seen it Click to view the hidden text I never picked up that Jax was trans. I've seen some discussions about things...
I'm not going to openly discuss this so it'll be in a tag for people who haven't seen it
Click to view the hidden text
I never picked up that Jax was trans. I've seen some discussions about things that were allegedly clear giveaways, but part of the problem is they were coded heavily enough that if you didn't know the signs, you wouldn't catch them. I'm not resistant to it *at all*, and the evidence people cite seems to be pretty clear-cut, but symbolism requires one requires one to recognize the symbols to work.
Hell, I missed that Blackbeard and Stede Bonnet were becoming a thing at the end of the first season of "This Flag Means Death."
I'm offering this perspective as somebody who related quite heavily to Jax, as well. Not in an edgy "I'm an asshole" way, but in a "I understand him too much" way I describe in my own comment.
Ahh, fair, sometimes I forget that the LGBT community has all its own cultural markers that are shared between all aspects of the community but not necessarily outside it. So it shouldn't always...
Ahh, fair, sometimes I forget that the LGBT community has all its own cultural markers that are shared between all aspects of the community but not necessarily outside it. So it shouldn't always be a shock when someone doesn't see it, I suppose.
... But also WOW, Our Flag Means Death is literally the gayest show I've seen in my life 😅 Damn.
Not familiar with the series(?) but, if I can say anything based on my own experiences as a transsexual woman, people can be absurdly clueless sometimes even for really obvious things. Like, if...
Not familiar with the series(?) but, if I can say anything based on my own experiences as a transsexual woman, people can be absurdly clueless sometimes even for really obvious things. Like, if someone has a pre-existing idea of you in their head, it takes a lot for them to notice things conflicting with their idea of you.
Coming to this thread late because I just finished watching episode 9. Click to expand spoiler. I'm not sure if the following sounds ignorant: Is Jax choosing different things to wear absolutely...
Coming to this thread late because I just finished watching episode 9.
Click to expand spoiler.
I'm not sure if the following sounds ignorant:
Is Jax choosing different things to wear absolutely 100% about being trans? Like, how can outside observers know for sure it isn't that Jax wants to dress one way and behave one way but doesn't necessarily identify one way or another?
It's like....if it's along a spectrum of sorts until we hear from Jax how he wants to describe himself, doesn't it sounds kind of presumptuous?
The show is telling us. Most explicitly with Isn't She Lovely, but in many other ways too. This video brings them all together https://youtu.be/XhJWG7HW1u4
The show is telling us. Most explicitly with Isn't She Lovely, but in many other ways too. This video brings them all together https://youtu.be/XhJWG7HW1u4
Click to expand spoiler. So yes it's obvious that Jax is at least questioning or some shade of not cis-gendered. But my question is that is it fair to label them trans or a girl or transfemme when...
Click to expand spoiler.
So yes it's obvious that Jax is at least questioning or some shade of not cis-gendered. But my question is that is it fair to label them trans or a girl or transfemme when they could be some kind of gender fluid or neutral or any other label of their choice? In the show, Jax hasn't had the time to process through it before they abstracted yet.
As a real-world capital M cis-Man, who nearly always dresses in feminine clothes & hairstyle, I appreciate your thoughtfulness in the distinctions of presentation vs a person's...
As a real-world capital M cis-Man, who nearly always dresses in feminine clothes & hairstyle, I appreciate your thoughtfulness in the distinctions of presentation vs a person's inner-identification; many people seeing me and not knowing better may assume I'm some form of non-binary, or a very brick-y trans woman, but I feel I'm still solidly a man just with some alternate clothing choices.
That being said, a big difference between me and Jax is I'm a real person, and you can ask me how I feel and what I identify. On the other hand, Jax is a character in some art, so we are forced to draw our own conclusions on anything that isn't explicitly told to us.
Interpretations can vary, and I think it is valid to have an interpretation of "Jax is unsure where he lands on the gender spectrum, and that is what causes him anxiety". In the same way though, "Jax is trans, and his denial of it out of fear of rejection or other trauma is the cause of anxiety" is both a valid interpretation and an experience that many trans people can relate to having experienced themselves in their own journey.
Again, we can't actually ask Jax to clarify any of this. We could ask the creator, but even regardless of what they say interpretations of the art itself are still valid (death of the artist and all that).
It's good to keep your mind open, and not fall into another binary "trans must choose one of the two genders" thinking trap without asking the person in question. But in this case, it's an art, so any interpretation with reasonable backing is valid, and the "Jax is trans" option has both good backing and resonates with a lot of people, so it makes sense that it has risen to the most popular one.
Cool, thanks! Side , side note I hope Gooseworx has a good network of support and good people to deal with the sudden fame and a fan kingdom full of folks with probably all kinds of not yet worked...
Cool, thanks! Side , side note I hope Gooseworx has a good network of support and good people to deal with the sudden fame and a fan kingdom full of folks with probably all kinds of not yet worked through trauma.
Oh my, yeah, the TADC fandom has been ... spirited, if nothing else. I believe she mentioned in her socials that she's taking a step back, so hopefully that's into the arms of loved ones and...
Oh my, yeah, the TADC fandom has been ... spirited, if nothing else. I believe she mentioned in her socials that she's taking a step back, so hopefully that's into the arms of loved ones and trusted friends. They were ripping into her over every single word and possible misinterpretation for the last several months, which must have been exhausting.
Yeah, last I heard her Tumblr got removed because of transphobes mass-reporting it? Originally I thought she'd deactivated it, but apparently it was banned so it was likely mass-reported as...
Yeah, last I heard her Tumblr got removed because of transphobes mass-reporting it? Originally I thought she'd deactivated it, but apparently it was banned so it was likely mass-reported as harassment. Seems to be back up now, but she's got more to deal with than just fans unfortunately.
I've thought for years that people in creative fields need thick skins because fans and haters alike can be so toxic. I've seen multiple animators ditch social media because dealing with the fandom was just too toxic. The fact TADC was at least partially based on her own mental health struggles has always made me just a little worried for her.
I actually had a ticket to see this opening night but had to ditch my ticket from having a cold and saw it the following Wednesday. First some thoughts that weren't spoilers: Seeing Zach Hadel...
I actually had a ticket to see this opening night but had to ditch my ticket from having a cold and saw it the following Wednesday.
First some thoughts that weren't spoilers:
Seeing Zach Hadel (psychicpebbles, the fish in the beach episode and who warns us not to spoil it) and Arin Hanson (egoraptor, voice of Kaufmo) on a theater screen was wild. As a fan of both for their animation/VA work, it was a treat.
EP 9 left a huge dent on me for a couple days, and I'll explain why. It's stuff I didn't really see discussed, or I see discussed in actively hostile ways that seem to miss some of the point that the show had, and I did accidentally end up on a couple subreddits dedicated to the show who focused heavily on certain angles, but not others I'll go into in my spoiler.
Thoughts/experience around EP9
The show is, by and large, and more overtly, a psychological horror through its exploration of human consciousness an an effectively immortal, immutable system. It does pivot into the effects of the individuals' unique psychological profiles and how they map to the world, of course.
Something about the deep exploration on Jax, who acted as sort of a conflict driving lynchpin through the series, and an exploration of the Circus's effect on a specific person's mind became ultimately unsettling. I actually almost had to leave the theater when it was playing through Jax's memories, history, and Jax's experience of pushing other members of the circus away to the point of abstraction. I don't have experience that maps 1:1 with that, none of my is gender/identity related (and it doesn't have to be), but there were portions of my life where I exhibited certain behaviors for nearly identical reasons: Emotional vulnerability being used against me in comparatively small ways, not feeling like I had any safe attachments, and it ultimately led to a period of similar bitterness and isolation. I had experiences that mirrored Jax's, even if they weren't the same in severity or consistency, that still left marks on me.
I muscled through the episode, loved every second around that scene because it was so uncomfortable and somehow nailed the feelings, then had to try not to cry through the mall as I walked back to my car and, ultimately, fell apart, let myself cry it out, and sort of processed through the whole thing.
Jax's situation is, I'm learning more and more, extremely relatable to a lot of people. Several people I know have revealed their pasts to me because of it - they'll always say they used to be...
Jax's situation is, I'm learning more and more, extremely relatable to a lot of people. Several people I know have revealed their pasts to me because of it - they'll always say they used to be just like Jax, and I'll always have had no idea. I'm really glad this story got to be told to reach people who have been there, and even people who are still there. It's good to have representation of all the little things that can affect people out there in the media, it really does help us understand each other.
The whole show's been fun. I only learned about it via the stepkid, and ended up taking them to see the finale in the theater. I'm rather entertained by the slightly retro CGI art style and...
The whole show's been fun. I only learned about it via the stepkid, and ended up taking them to see the finale in the theater. I'm rather entertained by the slightly retro CGI art style and frequent references to CGI and CS stuff. e.g. spot the Utah Teapot in nearly every episode. (Also, this Glitch company is now funding Lackadaisy, another YouTube animated series.)
One of the things I appreciated about the last episode, and the character it focuses on, is something that not enough media deals with...except maybe shows like MASH or Scrubs: the people who often have the appearance of being unserious and are often looking to find humor in everything, are often the most deadly serious people and it's an important coping mechanism for them.
Only just finished episode 7: The show appears to be a pretty well written and gorgeously animated dark comedy with sprinkles of horror. On point comedic timing/my flavor of funny and a decent...
Only just finished episode 7:
The show appears to be a pretty well written and gorgeously animated dark comedy with sprinkles of horror. On point comedic timing/my flavor of funny and a decent enough job of balancing the funny/serious/dark/etc. You know there's going to be "now we see x and y bond" moment most episodes but it doesn't often feel forced or drawn out.
In short it's a pretty clean telling of a good idea.
Fandom:
I know at least one of the "issues" the fandom is rambling about. Personally I just mentally categorize it as on the same spectrum as Stephen Universe/Viziepop/whatever problematic niche fandoms (as opposed to things like Supernatural/Rick and Morty/whatever as problematic popular fandoms).
Seems like the sort of thing, so far, that if you watched it you'd enjoy it and just best to stay away from the extremists? I can imagine this maybe not delivering to the level I might hope (few things do, it's hard to end a story well), and given what I know I think there's maybe an interesting an mature discussion to be had about that, but I can't conceive of this show someone actually being bad enough to have strong feelings about it at this point. I suspect a lot of it as always comes from social media behavior and possibly creator involvement (although I can't begin to care about that side so grain of salt)
There's a lot of stuff where you're gonna be fine ignoring the fandom. 99% of them are just people who like the show, and I've wound up in a few subreddits by chance where, frankly nothing...
There's a lot of stuff where you're gonna be fine ignoring the fandom. 99% of them are just people who like the show, and I've wound up in a few subreddits by chance where, frankly nothing bad/weird happened. I also saw the theatrical release of ep 8/9 and it was just normal people, nbd. I see a lot of the stuff I see in internet fandoms, and I just generally avoid dedicated fan communities because I'm never that invested in anything I watch to want to talk about it to a large degree. That said, the community around this show isn't particularly toxic that I've seen.
The content is sort of a comedy/psychological horror reminiscent to themes akin to Harlan Ellison's I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, in that you have human psychological entities beholden to an AI entity in a system he controls, with a risk of "abstraction" (incidental, system-induced cognitive/identity dissolution) should they resist the program too intensively (not really a spoiler there, it's a concept that's revealed early on and is a basic premise of the show). It deals largely with the tensions of human consciousness against an artificial overlord, and the existential stresses of realizing one might exist as this immutable yet conscious entity in an artificial system.
I'm making it sound deeper than it is but I was consistently entertained and intrigued by it. I'd say just jump in on the pilot for free on youtube if you have a passing curiosity, give it til maybe episode 3 (of 9), and see how you feel. It's all on Glitch's Youtube channel anyway.
Somehow the drama from this show crossed my radar and I decided to just give it a watch. Only to 7 but wife and I have been enjoying it. Comedy is just flat out on point, and the rest ranges from...
Somehow the drama from this show crossed my radar and I decided to just give it a watch. Only to 7 but wife and I have been enjoying it. Comedy is just flat out on point, and the rest ranges from good to great? Don't think I've had a moment i've not enjoyed so far, and am curious how hard it will eventually push into the darker aspects it's been dancing around.
I have some larger thoughts but I guess i'll save them for when I can comment on this episode.
Edit -
Finished it all, thought it was good?
I obviously only just found out about this, so I don't have 3 years of expectations/theory crafting, and even if I had i'm not the type to over look into author comments and what not as seems to be part of the drama about this.
For a story that's very obviously a metaphor about mental health/isolation/self worth/acceptance I think it did a good job getting the point across without feeling too exposition dumpy or beating you over the head with it. It also managed to fill the moments between with well made humor and creativity. Feel like the only moments that dragged were the Jax acid trip in I think ep 8, and a bit of 9 given it's by nature an exposition dump where I kinda knew where it was going.
3. Jax stuff and other larger spoilers
It's fine?
Jax's story was kinda obvious (not the trans part, i think only a few small hints i picked up on like the beach episode, but that's fine) in the self loathing/fear of attachment/lol just kidding man kind of way.
I feel that abstraction being reversible would've undercut a lot of the message of the story.
Caine feels fine to me as clearly the whole idea is that he's having the same struggles they are? Feelings of worthlessness becoming toxic hostility and all that?
I think my only issue is that while it was all good, I did love the zany humor of it all, and would love more of it. I get that's not what the main message is, but the humor really was the kind I crave and have found a massive lack of, and I felt much the way about early Helluva Boss.
Okay, I had this mostly written up in a notes app so here we go! I want to talk about how much I love Jax's character. Not to defend or accuse Jax, but because Jax is to me a great example of a...
Okay, I had this mostly written up in a notes app so here we go! I want to talk about how much I love Jax's character. Not to defend or accuse Jax, but because Jax is to me a great example of a character who doesn't fit into the neat categories of "hero" or "villain".
Jax is just a flawed, hurt person, and I think TADC did a great job at capturing just how complex that sort of hurt can manifest and present.
Long Rant about Jax
Here's the thing about people: outside of fiction, we typically don't fall into black-and-white categories. We don't have clean "character arcs". Real life is messy and chaotic with very few situations that fit some clear-cut template with clear-cut motivations. People lash out and say things and hurt each other not necessarily out of malice, but because we feel hurt and defensive even when we logically shouldn't. Sometimes we don't even know why we do it, so we're just left stewing in regret.
And that's the whole point of Jax's character.
Jax lived in a toxic household where she was belittled for showing emotion as a man, and compared to her dad when she'd lash out. When she finally tried to open up to her mom about (presumably) being trans in an attempt at getting acceptance, her mom ridiculed her. Even without knowing what was said, it's obvious she would know exactly what buttons to push for maximum harm.
Jax learned firsthand how being vulnerable and opening up to people could be used as a weapon against you to hurt you in the most personal way.
When Jax entered the circus, she had fresh memories of potentially killing her mother after that coming out. Worse, she had no way to get any closure on it after being "trapped" which just adds to the trauma and emotional turmoil. Jax's copy was made at the lowest point of her life, and thrown into a situation that historically broke much more mentally sound people.
This isn't a defense or excuse to try to say "Oh, Jax is misunderstood". I'm saying that Jax is not a sympatheitc villain, nor a "misunderstood hero", but a very flawed human.
I think not even Jax fully understood why she pushed Ribbit away so strongly. She revealed a lot about herself, and panicked because... well, again: last time she opened up went horrible and ended with her possibly killing her mom. Even though she (probably) knew logically that it wasn't fair to Ribbit, and that Ribbit wasn't the same as her mom, she still panicked and kept pushing Ribbit away and denying that talk was real.
Distance became Jax's primary defense mechanism: first against Ribbit who had learned too much and could potentially hurt her the same way her mom did, and then towards everyone else to avoid getting hurt by them too.
And obviously, that all ended horribly. It ended with Jax hurting Ribbit enough to abstract, and the guilt from that just cemented Jax's mental spiral.
I think Jax broke a bit from reality at that point. It was easier to just dive headfirst into all the adventures, act as a character, and stop thinking of everyone as "real" because it was easier than confronting the reality that she pushed Ribbit to abstraction. Jax also tried to avoid getting too attached to anyone else, in case anyone else abstracted.
All of those interactions are meant to push people away.
Jax's character is all about avoiding harsh realities. It's her driving motivation. Even the button scene, she pushed it because waking up would mean confronting the uncertain reality of what happened to her mother. When Kinger revealed his past and thus forced Jax to confront that this IS real and everyone is real, that was when her spiral hit rock bottom.
Even at the very end, that avoidance hit the point where she was unable to confront even her own feelings. She was unable to let down her walls until it was too late, just getting sucked into her mind with no escape.
I think that final conversation with Pomni was also meant to mirror how many people who commit suicide feel. Many who survive their attempts state they regretted it at the last second. For Jax, only after she abstracted did she finally confront her feelings and accept that she didn't want to abstract, and wish that she had opened up to Pomni earlier...
But it was too late. And as much as I wish Pomni was able to un-abstract Jax... Well, that would just remove any meaning from the message the story wanted to tell with Jax.
Something that I think way too many people forget or don't fully realize is just how much mental health is a major theme of The Amazing Digital Circus. Abstraction is basically an amalgamation of suicide and mental breakdowns. Characters abstract when they hit their lowest points and fall into total despair. Frankly, I'm still not sure how Kinger didn't abstract after Queenie did, his mind might have just managed to break in a way where he didn't even crave death.
All of the main cast have struggles that relate to mental health. Gangle has issues with confidence and being liked, Ragatha is a people pleaser, Zooble has body dismorphia... And Jax's struggles are all centered around avoidance, and it's masterfully done.
Just a shame that so many people only seem to see the mask Jax wore and focus on their actions, rather than ask and try to understand why.
Sorry to necro this thread, but it seemed like the best place to ask - my 12 year old has been asking to watch this show, how age-appropriate is it? We're not incredibly strict, but we also don't...
Sorry to necro this thread, but it seemed like the best place to ask - my 12 year old has been asking to watch this show, how age-appropriate is it? We're not incredibly strict, but we also don't just let him watch anything - he doesn't really watch R-rated movies for example. I get the sense it might be a little on the borderline? That's probably fine, it's just hard to gauge from summaries who the show is aimed at.
Recommendation: if your kids are asking for it by name, especially more than once, sit down with them and watch it together immediately. Reason after the review breakdown. I'll use IMDb parental...
Recommendation: if your kids are asking for it by name, especially more than once, sit down with them and watch it together immediately. Reason after the review breakdown.
I'll use IMDb parental guidance categories, and you'll see why in a second:
Sex & Nudity : extremely mild - "blink and you miss them" towards the end
Violence & Gore : extreme cartoon violence
Profanity : extremely mild - maybe one or two instances
Alcohol, drugs, smoking : mild - characters drink responsibly and are all of age "in the real world" . Edit: one instance of accidental drug intake, and another instance of intentional drug use.
Frightening and intense scenes : extreme.
The should would get a PG-13 rating in real life. But.
--
The show is essentially non-stop existential horror with occasional scenes of physical and environmental horror, to illustrate persistent and deep seated psychological trauma for all characters throughout its entire run time.
Psychological horror, body horror, mental stability collapse, persistent theme of trauma throughout its entire runtime. One of the earlier episodes is horror movie themed with scary images and concepts. Towards the end there is heavy explicit violence done intentionally to the characters over an extended period of time.
There is no non-cartoon violence and no sex and no consumerism and no swearing ; this is intentionally done to highlight the insanity of all the shit people let our kids watch as long as there's no sex.
Watch it together immediately reason:
Your child likely has peer groups who have all watched it, and is asking only as a formality to you. If your child has already watched it, they need someone to talk to about it. If your child has been dutifully waiting, they still need someone to talk to about it because otherwise they only have their peers to talk to about it. You know the saying "candy coated poison"? Our kids live in a landscape of candy coated poison and dark design patterns -- while this isn't a breath of fresh air, it's a candy coated dose of medicine the kids desperately need, and in the best case, an inoculation against all of that garbage because their first exposure was with you .
The tone is always sincere: this isn't media that was made with cynicism or a dim view of humanity like a Song of Ice and Fire, it's not nihilism that makes fun of kindness like Rick and Morty, it's not made with intentions to traumatis the kids as early as possible like Evangelion. It's a sincere look at all of those dark topics, because that's the reality in which our kids live in already, and posits that if we're kind to ourselves and each other, at least we have one another while we are stuck here in the shitshow analog circus.
@TheRtRevKaiser Addendum: since you specifically mentioned your teen might be scared by some of the stuff, episode 3, The Mystery of Mildenhall Manor, have an adult pre-watch the episode, mark...
Addendum: since you specifically mentioned your teen might be scared by some of the stuff, episode 3, The Mystery of Mildenhall Manor, have an adult pre-watch the episode, mark timestamps, skip the scary parts, and come back for the rest of the episode. That's how I watched it as an adult, assisted by my lovely spouse who knows I can't handle jumps scares in real life and one other kind of physical trauma on screen. The characters also describe the horror they experienced in words, so the viewer doesn't miss the bit. The other episodes are far less scary than that one episode.
There's one instance where a character yelled "I want to the ability to have sex!", with the intended comedic effect is for the other characters to be all 'how could you say such a thing!', and it...
There's one instance where a character yelled "I want to the ability to have sex!", with the intended comedic effect is for the other characters to be all 'how could you say such a thing!', and it doesn't go any further than that - so basically like how a bunch of 12-year-old would joke about saying "sex". I consider that age-appropriate but ymmv.
My mom didn't let me watch watch spongebob specifically because she thought it would turn me into a homosexual. I watched it in secret without her knowing Anyway I'm now a lesbian trans woman. Let...
My mom didn't let me watch watch spongebob specifically because she thought it would turn me into a homosexual. I watched it in secret without her knowing
Anyway I'm now a lesbian trans woman.
Let your kids watch what they wanna watch imho, they're going to watch it without your permission anyway if they want it a lot.
Hey, I'm sorry about your experience. I'm also sorry if Spongebob had anything to do with your sexual awakening (I'm kidding). I grew up in a pretty conservative context as well, although not...
Hey, I'm sorry about your experience. I'm also sorry if Spongebob had anything to do with your sexual awakening (I'm kidding). I grew up in a pretty conservative context as well, although not quite to that extent, so I can empathize at least a little.
It's less that I'm trying to shelter my kids from knowing about sex (we had "the talk" long ago and try to make sure to touch base about the subject regularly and keep open communication about the topic) or LGBTQ folks (we've encouraged them to read things with diverse characters, and they know we specifically left the church we had been part of for years because of that church's attitude toward trans people), and more that I'm worried about the tone and how the show handles the subject matter that it addresses. I'm also concerned about how scary the show might be - our oldest is a pretty anxious kid and already has trouble sleeping, so I'm a little reluctant to start on stuff that might feed that. I don't really have much context about what the show's vibe is. Chocobean's comments about the show's tone being sincere and earnest rather than cynical or nihilistic does encourage me some, honestly.
Saw this one in theatres a few weeks ago! I liked it, but it's been a hot minute, and I didn't take notes on my thoughts at the time.
Couple quick points in the spoiler block below.
I don't think there was any special story to Queenie's abstraction. They seemed to be the last two of the original group, which was naturally a HIGHLY stressful experience and I think just reached her limit.
Unless you mean her actual counterpart. She was happily married to real-Kinger, pretty sure the social media posts belonged to their daughters.
That said, I don't think abstraction is meant to tie into "redemption" like with Caine's return, but more just a physical manifestation of how mental health can reach a breaking point. That, and serving as an analogue for death.
I was so sure that Pomni might be able to pull Jax out and undo the abstraction, especially since it was so recent compared to all the other abstracted characters, but no. Genuinely sad about that. Jax's abstraction has been coming for a long time, but that flashback sequence just... Really hit hard. That talk with Ribbit was some of the rawest voice acting I've ever heard. I have some bigger thoughts I'll go into in another comment.
Spoilers
I think abstractions being actually reversible would create some problems. It would imply that Caine could revert them all along but chose not to.Which, not only would make his redemption a bit harder to swallow, but also would be weird because he likes humans. You would think then that he would jump at the chance to fix the abstractions and bring them back.
Hmm. I think I'd disagree, but it's because I have a different interpretation of Caine's role in potential reversibility. An AU comic I read at some point put it well: Caine doesn't understand humans well enough to be able to do the in-depth emotional surgery to re-alive them, so he'd need the help of the more capable circus crew to do the heavy lifting. We already saw via Pomni's perspective that Jax is reachable, and from some art released post-ep 9, not continuously on a rampage or anything.
I dunno, I think it'd be cleaner from an overall message perspective to say that either (A) friendship and acceptance cures all (i.e. abstracted people can "come back" with enough love and time), or (B) some wounds can never be healed (i.e. Caine doesn't make a third act reappearance). I'd prefer A XD
A bit late, but I do want to pop in with my own perspective:
I said this in another comment I just left talking about Jax's whole character arc, but I've always seen abstraction as basically an amalgamation of suicide and mental breakdowns. While Caine did "die", he didn't abstract, he was kinda deleted by another individual (still no clue how he came back), so his circumstances are different from the abstractions who "die" due to their own internal states. Redemption and the power of friendship aren't really factors in undoing death, or helping someone whose mind is irreversibly shattered. You can only help them before they reach that point.
And to that end, as much as I wish Pomni could have brought Jax back... The more I think about it, the more I realize that would undo their intended message: that avoiding reality only leads to harm. We need to confront it, no matter how scary it is or how much it hurts. Because if we just bottle up and ignore our worries and stress, if we keep pushing everyone else away, we're left with nothing but unbearable pain that we can't endure on our own. And some people make irreversible decisions.
Suicide is one of those things that can't be undone. Once you die, that's it. There's no do-over, no second chance. Many people who survive attempts report feeling regret at the last second, and I think that's the whole point of the final scene between Jax and Pomni: Jax DID feel regret about never opening up to Pomni and the others, and didn't want to actually die... but by that point it was too late.
Jax's character arc is a cautionary tale to seek help before it's too late. So having Pomni manage to save Jax at that point, while the happier ending, would weaken that aesop. Because far too many people only realize that in their final moments, just like Jax did.
And that's why... I can accept this tragedy. It's not tragedy for the sole sake of angst and suffering, but to tell a message and story that far too many people have experienced personally.
Your explanation is very well thought out, and is actually genuinely compelling. That's a darker theme than what I'd read into TADC, but I can definitely appreciate the message, and it feels more mature tbh than the "happy ending" I was hoping for.
But, like, I really really wanted a happy ending XD
I know, saaaame..... I want a happy ending for Jax, but at the same time, it's so rare to see a death be the end of a character arc rather than a vehicle to move the story or other characters. It's a proper, well-written tragedy, which is so hard to get right. Like, I hate it because it's so sad, but not in the way I hate other deaths, you know what I mean??
But screw it, that's what fan fiction is for!
And hey, on the unlikely chance there's a season 2, maybe they can focus on the mental breakdown side of abstraction over the suicide part. Then they can find a way to reverse it through an analog to mental health treatment and healing. Been on my mind since I saw those figures of partially abstracted characters.
Or maybe the shadow giraffes can begin talking and interacting with everyone again, that is also acceptable to meClick to expand spoiler.
Jax's shadow giraffe seemed to be able to calmly get some shut eye. And the other giraffes looked happy in their respective aquaria.We know that Pomni was able to reach some parts of Jax via giraffes: it made her glitch but Caine can fix that pain.
So while I accept that abstraction is permanent, it does not mean that they are forgotten and doomed. Maybe it's a different state of being in the digital circus that doesn't have to be frightening and painful and lonely. Maybe the giraffes can communicate with each other.
I can also accept the shadow giraffes learning to communicate with each other. They're not totally "gone" after all, as seen by Jax and Kinger's story about his final interaction with Queenie.
Now that I think about it, abstraction also seems to represent how death lets people finally find peace. They no longer need to worry about everything so much, they can just rest. And honestly, they're actually rather pretty in the aquarium scenes.
Also saw this one, but I had to cram the first 7 episodes into just a few days before the release. It was good, I thought. I noticed that it was intensely melodramatic, with each major character getting an "I learned something today" moment. And I think the Caine redemption could have been more sacrificial.
Big Kinger fan though. Also had to convince my kids that a certain character is trans. Resent my Xennial ass all you want, progeny!
There are two trans characters in the show. One is explicit, one is relatively unsubtle subtext
Oh for sure. It was the subtextual one.
Also, deeply wild that some people still think Jax isn't trans. People can really delude themselves into anything if it means pretending minorities don't exist, huh?
The kids at my viewing definitely knew what was up, though, lol. One behind me was literally repeatedly whisper-shouting "oh my god transfemme jax transfemme jax!!!!" 😂
I'm not going to openly discuss this so it'll be in a tag for people who haven't seen it
Click to view the hidden text
I never picked up that Jax was trans. I've seen some discussions about things that were allegedly clear giveaways, but part of the problem is they were coded heavily enough that if you didn't know the signs, you wouldn't catch them. I'm not resistant to it *at all*, and the evidence people cite seems to be pretty clear-cut, but symbolism requires one requires one to recognize the symbols to work.Hell, I missed that Blackbeard and Stede Bonnet were becoming a thing at the end of the first season of "This Flag Means Death."
I'm offering this perspective as somebody who related quite heavily to Jax, as well. Not in an edgy "I'm an asshole" way, but in a "I understand him too much" way I describe in my own comment.
... But also WOW, Our Flag Means Death is literally the gayest show I've seen in my life 😅 Damn.
Not familiar with the series(?) but, if I can say anything based on my own experiences as a transsexual woman, people can be absurdly clueless sometimes even for really obvious things. Like, if someone has a pre-existing idea of you in their head, it takes a lot for them to notice things conflicting with their idea of you.
Coming to this thread late because I just finished watching episode 9.
Click to expand spoiler.
I'm not sure if the following sounds ignorant:Is Jax choosing different things to wear absolutely 100% about being trans? Like, how can outside observers know for sure it isn't that Jax wants to dress one way and behave one way but doesn't necessarily identify one way or another?
It's like....if it's along a spectrum of sorts until we hear from Jax how he wants to describe himself, doesn't it sounds kind of presumptuous?
I don't know, does that make sense?
Click to expand spoiler.
So yes it's obvious that Jax is at least questioning or some shade of not cis-gendered. But my question is that is it fair to label them trans or a girl or transfemme when they could be some kind of gender fluid or neutral or any other label of their choice? In the show, Jax hasn't had the time to process through it before they abstracted yet.
That being said, a big difference between me and Jax is I'm a real person, and you can ask me how I feel and what I identify. On the other hand, Jax is a character in some art, so we are forced to draw our own conclusions on anything that isn't explicitly told to us.
Interpretations can vary, and I think it is valid to have an interpretation of "Jax is unsure where he lands on the gender spectrum, and that is what causes him anxiety". In the same way though, "Jax is trans, and his denial of it out of fear of rejection or other trauma is the cause of anxiety" is both a valid interpretation and an experience that many trans people can relate to having experienced themselves in their own journey.
Again, we can't actually ask Jax to clarify any of this. We could ask the creator, but even regardless of what they say interpretations of the art itself are still valid (death of the artist and all that).
It's good to keep your mind open, and not fall into another binary "trans must choose one of the two genders" thinking trap without asking the person in question. But in this case, it's an art, so any interpretation with reasonable backing is valid, and the "Jax is trans" option has both good backing and resonates with a lot of people, so it makes sense that it has risen to the most popular one.
Perfect. Thanks for the thorough explanation :)
Kind of some side context, since it doesn't address your point directly:
Fwiw, the showrunner w.r.t. pronouns and Jax.
Cool, thanks! Side , side note I hope Gooseworx has a good network of support and good people to deal with the sudden fame and a fan kingdom full of folks with probably all kinds of not yet worked through trauma.
Oh my, yeah, the TADC fandom has been ... spirited, if nothing else. I believe she mentioned in her socials that she's taking a step back, so hopefully that's into the arms of loved ones and trusted friends. They were ripping into her over every single word and possible misinterpretation for the last several months, which must have been exhausting.
Yeah, last I heard her Tumblr got removed because of transphobes mass-reporting it? Originally I thought she'd deactivated it, but apparently it was banned so it was likely mass-reported as harassment. Seems to be back up now, but she's got more to deal with than just fans unfortunately.
I've thought for years that people in creative fields need thick skins because fans and haters alike can be so toxic. I've seen multiple animators ditch social media because dealing with the fandom was just too toxic. The fact TADC was at least partially based on her own mental health struggles has always made me just a little worried for her.
I actually had a ticket to see this opening night but had to ditch my ticket from having a cold and saw it the following Wednesday.
First some thoughts that weren't spoilers:
Seeing Zach Hadel (psychicpebbles, the fish in the beach episode and who warns us not to spoil it) and Arin Hanson (egoraptor, voice of Kaufmo) on a theater screen was wild. As a fan of both for their animation/VA work, it was a treat.
EP 9 left a huge dent on me for a couple days, and I'll explain why. It's stuff I didn't really see discussed, or I see discussed in actively hostile ways that seem to miss some of the point that the show had, and I did accidentally end up on a couple subreddits dedicated to the show who focused heavily on certain angles, but not others I'll go into in my spoiler.
Thoughts/experience around EP9
The show is, by and large, and more overtly, a psychological horror through its exploration of human consciousness an an effectively immortal, immutable system. It does pivot into the effects of the individuals' unique psychological profiles and how they map to the world, of course.Something about the deep exploration on Jax, who acted as sort of a conflict driving lynchpin through the series, and an exploration of the Circus's effect on a specific person's mind became ultimately unsettling. I actually almost had to leave the theater when it was playing through Jax's memories, history, and Jax's experience of pushing other members of the circus away to the point of abstraction. I don't have experience that maps 1:1 with that, none of my is gender/identity related (and it doesn't have to be), but there were portions of my life where I exhibited certain behaviors for nearly identical reasons: Emotional vulnerability being used against me in comparatively small ways, not feeling like I had any safe attachments, and it ultimately led to a period of similar bitterness and isolation. I had experiences that mirrored Jax's, even if they weren't the same in severity or consistency, that still left marks on me.
I muscled through the episode, loved every second around that scene because it was so uncomfortable and somehow nailed the feelings, then had to try not to cry through the mall as I walked back to my car and, ultimately, fell apart, let myself cry it out, and sort of processed through the whole thing.
The whole show's been fun. I only learned about it via the stepkid, and ended up taking them to see the finale in the theater. I'm rather entertained by the slightly retro CGI art style and frequent references to CGI and CS stuff. e.g. spot the Utah Teapot in nearly every episode. (Also, this Glitch company is now funding Lackadaisy, another YouTube animated series.)
One of the things I appreciated about the last episode, and the character it focuses on, is something that not enough media deals with...except maybe shows like MASH or Scrubs: the people who often have the appearance of being unserious and are often looking to find humor in everything, are often the most deadly serious people and it's an important coping mechanism for them.
Okay, I finally caved in and bingewatched the whole thing within the last 24 hours.
Ragatha is literally my transition goals
In terms of her personality or how she looks?
Yes to both
Can anyone give me a back-of-the-book summary of what’s up with this show content and fandom-wise?
Only just finished episode 7:
The show appears to be a pretty well written and gorgeously animated dark comedy with sprinkles of horror. On point comedic timing/my flavor of funny and a decent enough job of balancing the funny/serious/dark/etc. You know there's going to be "now we see x and y bond" moment most episodes but it doesn't often feel forced or drawn out.
In short it's a pretty clean telling of a good idea.
Fandom:
I know at least one of the "issues" the fandom is rambling about. Personally I just mentally categorize it as on the same spectrum as Stephen Universe/Viziepop/whatever problematic niche fandoms (as opposed to things like Supernatural/Rick and Morty/whatever as problematic popular fandoms).
Seems like the sort of thing, so far, that if you watched it you'd enjoy it and just best to stay away from the extremists? I can imagine this maybe not delivering to the level I might hope (few things do, it's hard to end a story well), and given what I know I think there's maybe an interesting an mature discussion to be had about that, but I can't conceive of this show someone actually being bad enough to have strong feelings about it at this point. I suspect a lot of it as always comes from social media behavior and possibly creator involvement (although I can't begin to care about that side so grain of salt)
There's a lot of stuff where you're gonna be fine ignoring the fandom. 99% of them are just people who like the show, and I've wound up in a few subreddits by chance where, frankly nothing bad/weird happened. I also saw the theatrical release of ep 8/9 and it was just normal people, nbd. I see a lot of the stuff I see in internet fandoms, and I just generally avoid dedicated fan communities because I'm never that invested in anything I watch to want to talk about it to a large degree. That said, the community around this show isn't particularly toxic that I've seen.
The content is sort of a comedy/psychological horror reminiscent to themes akin to Harlan Ellison's I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, in that you have human psychological entities beholden to an AI entity in a system he controls, with a risk of "abstraction" (incidental, system-induced cognitive/identity dissolution) should they resist the program too intensively (not really a spoiler there, it's a concept that's revealed early on and is a basic premise of the show). It deals largely with the tensions of human consciousness against an artificial overlord, and the existential stresses of realizing one might exist as this immutable yet conscious entity in an artificial system.
I'm making it sound deeper than it is but I was consistently entertained and intrigued by it. I'd say just jump in on the pilot for free on youtube if you have a passing curiosity, give it til maybe episode 3 (of 9), and see how you feel. It's all on Glitch's Youtube channel anyway.
Somehow the drama from this show crossed my radar and I decided to just give it a watch. Only to 7 but wife and I have been enjoying it. Comedy is just flat out on point, and the rest ranges from good to great? Don't think I've had a moment i've not enjoyed so far, and am curious how hard it will eventually push into the darker aspects it's been dancing around.
I have some larger thoughts but I guess i'll save them for when I can comment on this episode.
Edit -
Finished it all, thought it was good?
I obviously only just found out about this, so I don't have 3 years of expectations/theory crafting, and even if I had i'm not the type to over look into author comments and what not as seems to be part of the drama about this.
For a story that's very obviously a metaphor about mental health/isolation/self worth/acceptance I think it did a good job getting the point across without feeling too exposition dumpy or beating you over the head with it. It also managed to fill the moments between with well made humor and creativity. Feel like the only moments that dragged were the Jax acid trip in I think ep 8, and a bit of 9 given it's by nature an exposition dump where I kinda knew where it was going.
3. Jax stuff and other larger spoilers
It's fine?Jax's story was kinda obvious (not the trans part, i think only a few small hints i picked up on like the beach episode, but that's fine) in the self loathing/fear of attachment/lol just kidding man kind of way.
I feel that abstraction being reversible would've undercut a lot of the message of the story.
Caine feels fine to me as clearly the whole idea is that he's having the same struggles they are? Feelings of worthlessness becoming toxic hostility and all that?
I think my only issue is that while it was all good, I did love the zany humor of it all, and would love more of it. I get that's not what the main message is, but the humor really was the kind I crave and have found a massive lack of, and I felt much the way about early Helluva Boss.
Okay, I had this mostly written up in a notes app so here we go! I want to talk about how much I love Jax's character. Not to defend or accuse Jax, but because Jax is to me a great example of a character who doesn't fit into the neat categories of "hero" or "villain".
Jax is just a flawed, hurt person, and I think TADC did a great job at capturing just how complex that sort of hurt can manifest and present.
Long Rant about Jax
Here's the thing about people: outside of fiction, we typically don't fall into black-and-white categories. We don't have clean "character arcs". Real life is messy and chaotic with very few situations that fit some clear-cut template with clear-cut motivations. People lash out and say things and hurt each other not necessarily out of malice, but because we feel hurt and defensive even when we logically shouldn't. Sometimes we don't even know why we do it, so we're just left stewing in regret.
And that's the whole point of Jax's character.
Jax lived in a toxic household where she was belittled for showing emotion as a man, and compared to her dad when she'd lash out. When she finally tried to open up to her mom about (presumably) being trans in an attempt at getting acceptance, her mom ridiculed her. Even without knowing what was said, it's obvious she would know exactly what buttons to push for maximum harm.
Jax learned firsthand how being vulnerable and opening up to people could be used as a weapon against you to hurt you in the most personal way.
When Jax entered the circus, she had fresh memories of potentially killing her mother after that coming out. Worse, she had no way to get any closure on it after being "trapped" which just adds to the trauma and emotional turmoil. Jax's copy was made at the lowest point of her life, and thrown into a situation that historically broke much more mentally sound people.
This isn't a defense or excuse to try to say "Oh, Jax is misunderstood". I'm saying that Jax is not a sympatheitc villain, nor a "misunderstood hero", but a very flawed human.
I think not even Jax fully understood why she pushed Ribbit away so strongly. She revealed a lot about herself, and panicked because... well, again: last time she opened up went horrible and ended with her possibly killing her mom. Even though she (probably) knew logically that it wasn't fair to Ribbit, and that Ribbit wasn't the same as her mom, she still panicked and kept pushing Ribbit away and denying that talk was real.
Distance became Jax's primary defense mechanism: first against Ribbit who had learned too much and could potentially hurt her the same way her mom did, and then towards everyone else to avoid getting hurt by them too.
And obviously, that all ended horribly. It ended with Jax hurting Ribbit enough to abstract, and the guilt from that just cemented Jax's mental spiral.
I think Jax broke a bit from reality at that point. It was easier to just dive headfirst into all the adventures, act as a character, and stop thinking of everyone as "real" because it was easier than confronting the reality that she pushed Ribbit to abstraction. Jax also tried to avoid getting too attached to anyone else, in case anyone else abstracted.
We see it with the doors in her mind. They were Jax trying to act blasé after people abstract and push away the survivors most likely to approach her: strangling Pomni who was close to Ragatha (though sadly we didn't see them bond much), further provoking Zooble to attack if Gangle abstracted, and acting blasé about Zooble to Gangle and inviting Gangle to sleep together (either because of Gangle and Zooble's romance, or possibly because she thought Gangle might like her and wanted to nip it in the bud...?).
All of those interactions are meant to push people away.
Jax's character is all about avoiding harsh realities. It's her driving motivation. Even the button scene, she pushed it because waking up would mean confronting the uncertain reality of what happened to her mother. When Kinger revealed his past and thus forced Jax to confront that this IS real and everyone is real, that was when her spiral hit rock bottom.
Even at the very end, that avoidance hit the point where she was unable to confront even her own feelings. She was unable to let down her walls until it was too late, just getting sucked into her mind with no escape.
I think that final conversation with Pomni was also meant to mirror how many people who commit suicide feel. Many who survive their attempts state they regretted it at the last second. For Jax, only after she abstracted did she finally confront her feelings and accept that she didn't want to abstract, and wish that she had opened up to Pomni earlier...
But it was too late. And as much as I wish Pomni was able to un-abstract Jax... Well, that would just remove any meaning from the message the story wanted to tell with Jax.
Something that I think way too many people forget or don't fully realize is just how much mental health is a major theme of The Amazing Digital Circus. Abstraction is basically an amalgamation of suicide and mental breakdowns. Characters abstract when they hit their lowest points and fall into total despair. Frankly, I'm still not sure how Kinger didn't abstract after Queenie did, his mind might have just managed to break in a way where he didn't even crave death.
All of the main cast have struggles that relate to mental health. Gangle has issues with confidence and being liked, Ragatha is a people pleaser, Zooble has body dismorphia... And Jax's struggles are all centered around avoidance, and it's masterfully done.
Just a shame that so many people only seem to see the mask Jax wore and focus on their actions, rather than ask and try to understand why.
Sorry to necro this thread, but it seemed like the best place to ask - my 12 year old has been asking to watch this show, how age-appropriate is it? We're not incredibly strict, but we also don't just let him watch anything - he doesn't really watch R-rated movies for example. I get the sense it might be a little on the borderline? That's probably fine, it's just hard to gauge from summaries who the show is aimed at.
Recommendation: if your kids are asking for it by name, especially more than once, sit down with them and watch it together immediately. Reason after the review breakdown.
I'll use IMDb parental guidance categories, and you'll see why in a second:
Sex & Nudity : extremely mild - "blink and you miss them" towards the end
Violence & Gore : extreme cartoon violence
Profanity : extremely mild - maybe one or two instances
Alcohol, drugs, smoking : mild - characters drink responsibly and are all of age "in the real world" . Edit: one instance of accidental drug intake, and another instance of intentional drug use.
Frightening and intense scenes : extreme.
The should would get a PG-13 rating in real life. But.
--
The show is essentially non-stop existential horror with occasional scenes of physical and environmental horror, to illustrate persistent and deep seated psychological trauma for all characters throughout its entire run time.
Psychological horror, body horror, mental stability collapse, persistent theme of trauma throughout its entire runtime. One of the earlier episodes is horror movie themed with scary images and concepts. Towards the end there is heavy explicit violence done intentionally to the characters over an extended period of time.
There is no non-cartoon violence and no sex and no consumerism and no swearing ; this is intentionally done to highlight the insanity of all the shit people let our kids watch as long as there's no sex.
Watch it together immediately reason:
Your child likely has peer groups who have all watched it, and is asking only as a formality to you. If your child has already watched it, they need someone to talk to about it. If your child has been dutifully waiting, they still need someone to talk to about it because otherwise they only have their peers to talk to about it. You know the saying "candy coated poison"? Our kids live in a landscape of candy coated poison and dark design patterns -- while this isn't a breath of fresh air, it's a candy coated dose of medicine the kids desperately need, and in the best case, an inoculation against all of that garbage because their first exposure was with you .
The tone is always sincere: this isn't media that was made with cynicism or a dim view of humanity like a Song of Ice and Fire, it's not nihilism that makes fun of kindness like Rick and Morty, it's not made with intentions to traumatis the kids as early as possible like Evangelion. It's a sincere look at all of those dark topics, because that's the reality in which our kids live in already, and posits that if we're kind to ourselves and each other, at least we have one another while we are stuck here in the shitshow analog circus.
@TheRtRevKaiser
Addendum: since you specifically mentioned your teen might be scared by some of the stuff, episode 3, The Mystery of Mildenhall Manor, have an adult pre-watch the episode, mark timestamps, skip the scary parts, and come back for the rest of the episode. That's how I watched it as an adult, assisted by my lovely spouse who knows I can't handle jumps scares in real life and one other kind of physical trauma on screen. The characters also describe the horror they experienced in words, so the viewer doesn't miss the bit. The other episodes are far less scary than that one episode.
There's one instance where a character yelled "I want to the ability to have sex!", with the intended comedic effect is for the other characters to be all 'how could you say such a thing!', and it doesn't go any further than that - so basically like how a bunch of 12-year-old would joke about saying "sex". I consider that age-appropriate but ymmv.
My mom didn't let me watch watch spongebob specifically because she thought it would turn me into a homosexual. I watched it in secret without her knowing
Anyway I'm now a lesbian trans woman.
Let your kids watch what they wanna watch imho, they're going to watch it without your permission anyway if they want it a lot.
Hey, I'm sorry about your experience. I'm also sorry if Spongebob had anything to do with your sexual awakening (I'm kidding). I grew up in a pretty conservative context as well, although not quite to that extent, so I can empathize at least a little.
It's less that I'm trying to shelter my kids from knowing about sex (we had "the talk" long ago and try to make sure to touch base about the subject regularly and keep open communication about the topic) or LGBTQ folks (we've encouraged them to read things with diverse characters, and they know we specifically left the church we had been part of for years because of that church's attitude toward trans people), and more that I'm worried about the tone and how the show handles the subject matter that it addresses. I'm also concerned about how scary the show might be - our oldest is a pretty anxious kid and already has trouble sleeping, so I'm a little reluctant to start on stuff that might feed that. I don't really have much context about what the show's vibe is. Chocobean's comments about the show's tone being sincere and earnest rather than cynical or nihilistic does encourage me some, honestly.
Doesthedogdie might be useful https://www.doesthedogdie.com/media/1303522?index1=-1&index2=-1
That actually looks useful, thanks. Also, this made me laugh: