I am unimpressed with this update. Jewelled Lotus is now the most useless card ever printed. The only format where it could be played has now made it illegal. One couldn't even combo this for...
I am unimpressed with this update.
Jewelled Lotus is now the most useless card ever printed. The only format where it could be played has now made it illegal. One couldn't even combo this for infinite mana, it's just a light boost to cast some commanders.
The Dockside ban is rough. I have to revise every single red deck I have, as Dockside is an auto-include for me. A lot of people groan when Dockside comes out, but fail to realize that Dockside actually scales with what your opponents are doing; if they don't have a good board, it's not particularly awful to deal with.
I don't run Mana Crypt outside of one single deck, so I'll have to find a worthwhile zero mana artifact to replace it with.
I don't play cEDH, so my view is fairly casual, but there are so many banned cards that just seem silly to have banned, and that's just getting worse.
Is that a very casual view though? Those three cards are all decidedly non-casual in my view - I have a single deck I'd even consider playing at the same table as a deck running any of these,...
Is that a very casual view though? Those three cards are all decidedly non-casual in my view - I have a single deck I'd even consider playing at the same table as a deck running any of these, because I can't possibly match the explosiveness otherwise and refuse to invest hundreds in must-plays to keep up otherwise... If dockside is an auto include for you, I'd take that to directly mean that you play high power to fringe already - do you disagree? Does everybody in your playgroups play these cards?
Yeah I was debating on posting a similar dissenting opinion. Even if they do not consider their table Cedh, it is certainly was more "competitive" than my table, where none of these cards are played.
Yeah I was debating on posting a similar dissenting opinion. Even if they do not consider their table Cedh, it is certainly was more "competitive" than my table, where none of these cards are played.
I left a lengthy reply below, but it boils down to this: you can't judge a deck by the inclusion of a single card. I am 95% confident that I could sit down at your table and play a fun game with...
I left a lengthy reply below, but it boils down to this: you can't judge a deck by the inclusion of a single card. I am 95% confident that I could sit down at your table and play a fun game with you and your pod and be in no way dominant, while using a deck that used at least one of the cards that were just banned.
I'm sure we could sit down and have fun, but I would counter that your uses of the cards are in the minority. Certainly the vast majority of the times I've seen these cards are friends who are...
I'm sure we could sit down and have fun, but I would counter that your uses of the cards are in the minority. Certainly the vast majority of the times I've seen these cards are friends who are having a ton of fun in magic and dropping serious money to upgrade (and outpacing our table in the process) or someone rolling up to a nearly full pod at an LGS with a "trust me bro, it's a casual deck" and then attempting to steamroll.
Sure you can't define a deck by a single card. I have a wrenn and six that has gone off occasionally in an otherwise very poorly performing deck. But if we were to look at the top 100 most competitive, or most "salty" decks (I know those mean different things, take your pick) I guarantee at least 95 of those decks will have at least one of those cards. Probably two. So it's a good sign that a deck is probably less on the casual side.
I also think these cards do scare off people from getting into Magic. I remember being scared off a bit in my first five games when people started telling me how much the cardboard they just played was worth. There is certainly an element of pay to play in many circles. If you constantly find yourself losing to friends or players at your LGS because they are beating you on the mana curve because of these cards, you certainly feel like you "have" to spend the money to keep up.
In the end I think the Commander Board decided that these cards were doing more harm than good. Sure there will be others, but we will see what they will be. Wizards certainly seems to be power creeping the game. But banned cards can still be played. You just have to ask. I think that makes the conversation a lot more healthy. Cause having to sit a friend down cause they are spending more than anyone else at the table can afford to win more games sucks. But by asking permission, rather than making newer players suffer through it until they can't take it anymore, is a lot more healthy.
And hell, maybe I can play my secret lair Primeval Titan one of these days.
There's a difference between dominant and streamlined, though; it doesn't need to be a powerful broken finisher tool, it just needs to be the correct choice (however minimally) over every other...
There's a difference between dominant and streamlined, though; it doesn't need to be a powerful broken finisher tool, it just needs to be the correct choice (however minimally) over every other option - and I mean every other - to become overcentralizing. I've seen one thread about someone lamenting their Niv-Mizzet deck is unplayable due to the Dockside ban; I feel for people that the card was a semi-consistent red ramp option, but that deck was also apparently running Goblin Recruiter to specifically be Dockside draw #2... That dogmatic optimization is where a CEDH ban split seems way more appropriate than keeping it default unbanned in the casual sphere.
EDIT: Or really I should say, dogmatic optimization without ubiquitous and obvious accessibility. Mind you I disagree with their Sol Ring reasoning, it'd be nice to give everyone a slot back, but that's sorta as whatever as Command Tower is.
I think you cannot judge a deck by the inclusion of a single card. Putting a Dockside Extortionist, despite it being a very good and efficient card, into a deck does not make it cEDH. For example,...
I think you cannot judge a deck by the inclusion of a single card. Putting a Dockside Extortionist, despite it being a very good and efficient card, into a deck does not make it cEDH. For example, if you took the Endless Punishment precon, and took out Solemn Simulacrum and added in Dockside, it would still accomplish almost exactly nothing at a cEDH table, and I don't think that anyone would argue that the deck is now cEDH because of the inclusion of that single card.
I play a fair bit of EDH using Tabletop Simulator, and the rest in person. I've got 10 paper decks and about 50 digital ones. Of those, one of them is built with the intent to sit at a cEDH table, and it does run two of these cards (Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt) because it's a Jhoira Weatherlight Captain deck that wants as many 0-cost artifacts as possible. This is the only cEDH deck I have, and likely the only one I will ever make, since my friends don't like cEDH.
The friend group that I play with is definitely casual. They strongly discourage things like infinite combos, we regularly go to turn 15 or 20, they like big boards with big creatures doing goofy things. Sometimes games take 3 hours. It's basically the epitome of casual. Only one other guy has Dockside in his decks. My overall win rate for 155 games is 26.45%, which is pretty much spot on what it should be for a group of 4, so I am not dominating this casual group.
My decks (other than the one aforementioned) are usually relatively silly, built on a theme, and appropriate for a casual meta. For example, I have a Xyris, the Writhing Storm deck where all the creatures are snakes and there are a bunch of vehicles that fly; it's called Snakes on a Plane. I've never won a game with it, despite claiming that Dockside counts as a Snake. I have a Wyll Blade of Frontiers / Agent of the Iron Throne deck that does a lot of dice rolling; it included a dockside. I've never won with it either, despite the dockside. I have Jeweled Lotus in a Phage the Untouchable deck, and if that doesn't scream "this is a casual deck" I'm not sure what else could; having a commander that kills you when you cast it unless shenanigans is definitely not a competitive strategy.
What I'm getting at is that the inclusion of one card does not define the power level of a deck. It's why rule 0 conversations are important, and why it's also important to be able to talk about the sort of game that you want to play, and the sort of things you'll be able to do when you play your deck. The inclusion of Dockside in a red deck (the colour which typically has the least ramp) isn't necessarily making it overpowered, it can just be trying to plug holes. It's a powerful card, but if you don't build around it, all it is is a small value add. And while I'm on a bit of a rant anyways, from the point of view of effectiveness vs. cost or expectation vs. reality, it is one of the most disappointing cards for me personally in the friend group I play 95% of my games in. I've played it a bunch, and generally the value is fairly low, because as I said in the parent comment to this, it depends a lot on matching the decks that you're playing against. If they get a good start, it brings you up to speed with their start. The exception is if you're doing something hinky with it, like blinking it a bunch, which I tend not to do - my "blink things in and out of existence" deck is both bad and not red - so I'm not getting the value out of it that one might at a cEDH table. So my personal disappointment with the ban is more about removing it from 4 paper decks, finding a replacement that does something to ramp in decks that have a decided ramp deficiency, and then doing the same for maybe a dozen digital copies of decks. I also think there are a lot of things on the banlist that are silly and should be taken care of by a Rule 0 conversation, and in general, there's at least 3 more now.
I think ultimately a kitchen table game with a stable group of players that know each other and make sure to keep decks compatible is neither what the ban list targets nor where it needs to apply....
I think ultimately a kitchen table game with a stable group of players that know each other and make sure to keep decks compatible is neither what the ban list targets nor where it needs to apply. Your group sounds lovely, and your decks sound fun and not oppressive! I wouldnt be surprised if your friends agree to just let you keep playing those cards, given that you have good data to back up your decks not being op?
When I play, I usually play with randoms at a LGS. While this rarely has happened to me, I have sat down with a deck on a power level of upgraded precon, communicated with the table that this was the power level we all wanted to play, and found myself facing a deck that was very much not that power level - fastmana, free interaction, the whole deal. And that sucked. It was not a fun game, it's an awkward social interaction to then kick a player off the table afterwards, nobody left happy.
To me, the commander banlist seems to be aimed at this kind of situation: an attempt at making a bit of a rule zero that applies by default. I don't think it's perfect at that, but I would say most cards on the list fall in this kind of category - so unfun when somebody just plays them out of nowhere that unless it's agreed to by the players, it's safer to ban the cards by default.
Now, these three cards (nadu is a different story as just a design mistake) are not exactly the kind of "I win in an unfun way" cards like Iona, Flash or Biorhythm. But I believe they represent something I wholeheartedly agree with targeting: the idea of expensive staples that are so good, so expensive and so bland, you kind of would want them in any deck - and if you don't play them, it's often for budget reasons (unless your group explicitly banned them, which most didn't until yesterday). I don't think that adds any fun, complexity or spice to the format - it makes it more explosive, more homogeneous and raises the barrier of entry. And I am happy to see some movement to address that.
Besides, has this impacted your snakes on a plane deck that badly? If no, is the ban really a problem? If yes, isn't that indicative that maybe these cards were a bit too much?
In general, I try to keep my decks legal, since we do with some frequency go to the LGS to play on EDH night, and though it's a small place and we know almost everyone, it's still a good idea that...
In general, I try to keep my decks legal, since we do with some frequency go to the LGS to play on EDH night, and though it's a small place and we know almost everyone, it's still a good idea that everyone approaches things with the same pool of cards.
I don't think this is going to make any of my decks significantly worse (maybe the Jhoira deck) but I also think that the fundamental problem is not with these cards, but with the people who do exactly what you've talked about and pubstomp. I think of it in a similar way to how Tildes approaches the community - trust people but punish abusers. I accept that that's difficult when the community (in this case "the entirety of EDH players") gets to be a certain size, so you have to take more actions such as this one, but it saddens me to limit the deck building space because some people can't or don't effectively communicate about games.
I do think that the worst of all the bans was Jeweled Lotus, though. It is basically a commander-only card that is now illegal in commander, outside of the niche interaction @Namarie brought up.
Edit: one of the issues with bans like this, is that there are always going to be "the best" cards, and they're always going to be boogeymen that people find unapproachable. Already, the card market is shaking up, and some things are going up in price and will likely be the next staple that gets targeted. Ultimately, I think figuring out how to talk about decks and deck purposes is a better solution than removing things.
Pedantically, there actually was a very silly deck LSV played in Vintage where the mana doubled by Doubling Cube isn't in fact restricted. Loop a lotus or two, double, and go off for more...
Pedantically, there actually was a very silly deck LSV played in Vintage where the mana doubled by Doubling Cube isn't in fact restricted. Loop a lotus or two, double, and go off for more traditional lines with higher than average mana. It was absolutely a gimmick, but he did pull off some wacky wins!
That is an interesting and niche way to make a useless card have some utility. The delight I find in coupling Jeweled Lotus with Doubling Cube is making me slightly less >:( about this piece of...
That is an interesting and niche way to make a useless card have some utility. The delight I find in coupling Jeweled Lotus with Doubling Cube is making me slightly less >:( about this piece of cardboard in my hands that went from $120cad to 10 cents.
Edit: I'm realizing that I should sell all my real cards. I mostly play with proxies anyways.
The gist is, I have a Sliver Queen that lived in my wallet before I learned it was on the Reserve List. So I decided I'd try to make the rest of the deck illegal as well! It's very WIP since I...
The gist is, I have a Sliver Queen that lived in my wallet before I learned it was on the Reserve List. So I decided I'd try to make the rest of the deck illegal as well! It's very WIP since I don't get the inspiration/ disposable money often, but I am right now in wake of this... At the moment it's a midrange pile of jank looking to either go aggro or do a Mana Echoes combo with Queen. I'd like to probably turn it into a full combo deck doing the latter.
The cards I have right now are:
Karoo, Forest, Wasteland, Ancient Tomb, Swamp, Island, and Xiahou Dun, The One-Eyed from the One Piece TCG, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokémon TCG, Wyvern, Dominion, and Wixoss. (Xiahou Dun cracks me up.)
The promo Duel Masters printing of Muscle Sliver, and their Sliver Queen too in case mine has to actually operate like a card...
My favorite little piece of serendipity is that a Crystalline Sliver was supposed to be an FNM promo, except the shipment was stolen. So for a while, it was literally illegal to play it until they found it and then gave it out.
There's a World's Smallest deck; I'd run the Night's Whisper.
There's an oversized Gaea's Cradle that I'd like to get a normal-sized proxy of for the "huh?" factor. There's also, uh, all the oversized cards... Like the weird thick etched Sliver Hivemother from the precon...
I want to grab a Solemn Simulacrum artist proof, maybe some others that are relevant to the deck. But they're pricey...
LotR card game has a Word of Command. Dragon Ball Masters has Jiren, Survival of the Fittest. Yu-Gi-Oh has an Intruder Alarm, which is good for the combo, and dozens of others. Vampire: TES has a Black Lotus. Across the Obelisk has Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor. World of Warcraft TCG has a Counterspell.
I can grab some funny proxies, but I particularly want a Shahrazad in there. There's an edit of Zirda with the Firefox logo I'd use since it helps the combo.
Armageddon had trading cards. Like, Bruce Willis. That'll destroy some lands alright.
It should have proxy of Faceless Agent and Tezzeret's Reckoning from Arena, as well as Oracle of the Alpha from MB2. Also proxies of Whimsy and Gem Bazaar from Shandalar, while I'm at it.
I've tried to AI-generate a few Slivers, but I haven't seen any funny enough without being stupid overpowered to run.
I think you should stick in an Urza Academy Headmaster and maybe Urza's Fun House ( you can stipulate that you don't have an Mine, Power-Plant or Tower, so you can't generate infinite mana).
I think you should stick in an Urza Academy Headmaster and maybe Urza's Fun House ( you can stipulate that you don't have an Mine, Power-Plant or Tower, so you can't generate infinite mana).
I'm currently watching the craziness in my LGS's discord, the owners seem really down cuz this effectively killed a bunch of product for them. Jeweled Lotus was basically a commander only card,...
I'm currently watching the craziness in my LGS's discord, the owners seem really down cuz this effectively killed a bunch of product for them.
Jeweled Lotus was basically a commander only card, seems like a weird thing to ban a card that is only playable in one format basically in it's only format.
Yeah, I think the evaporation of hundreds of thousands of dollars in the secondary market of MTG is going to cause some problems for sure. My LGS thankfully is rsther diverse, and has a lot of...
Yeah, I think the evaporation of hundreds of thousands of dollars in the secondary market of MTG is going to cause some problems for sure.
My LGS thankfully is rsther diverse, and has a lot of ways to recover from a loss like this, but smaller EDH-centered stores I worry more about.
Preserving the secondary market should be the absolute last consideration behind any MTG decision. Fuck the speculators. Card shops that exist solely as middlemen have always been on shaky ground...
Preserving the secondary market should be the absolute last consideration behind any MTG decision. Fuck the speculators. Card shops that exist solely as middlemen have always been on shaky ground and this highlights the instability.
I think I’d agree with you except that WOTC has shown that they already have no regard for supporting stores who don’t sell singles either. Edit: I’m assuming we’re talking about stores that exist...
I think I’d agree with you except that WOTC has shown that they already have no regard for supporting stores who don’t sell singles either.
Edit: I’m assuming we’re talking about stores that exist as middlemen to make money, but the money pays for space for people to play. If it’s just a storefront without providing play space, yeah I agree, those don’t have my support.
I think people and stores that hoard massive quantities of these types of cards are terrible, and I don't really feel bad for them. And stores like the one I play at are diverse enough and have...
I think people and stores that hoard massive quantities of these types of cards are terrible, and I don't really feel bad for them. And stores like the one I play at are diverse enough and have enough general stock, this doesn't kill them.
I do feel bad for the new-ish hobby store owner who juiced up his display case from his own collection. Or the hobby store where $500 of lost potential sales could spell disaster. I've been to, and seen stores like this.
I am (and shouldn't have been) surprised that there are fellow MTG players here. I feel silly about being surprised by this. Hello fellow Magic players! I'm that one random guy on Arena playing a...
I am (and shouldn't have been) surprised that there are fellow MTG players here. I feel silly about being surprised by this.
Hello fellow Magic players! I'm that one random guy on Arena playing a ~250 card 5 color value pile in the Standard Ranked queue! Nice to meet you all.
Prices of these cards according to mtggoldfish: $85 $95 $200 $3 I think a lot of players will be happy that something is being done to curb fast mana, but the people who own these cards other than...
Prices of these cards according to mtggoldfish:
$85
$95
$200
$3
I think a lot of players will be happy that something is being done to curb fast mana, but the people who own these cards other than Nadu are going to be pretty upset
Yeah I only own a Nadu out of all these, and pretty impressed it got banned in such high company. I have seen these do some damage in my play group, with people kinda paying to play and...
Yeah I only own a Nadu out of all these, and pretty impressed it got banned in such high company. I have seen these do some damage in my play group, with people kinda paying to play and dramatically increasing the competitiveness of their decks.
I really like this, but I understand why some people are upset. What I don't really understand is why some cEDH players are so upset. For the longest time, the most popular refrain from the cEDH...
I really like this, but I understand why some people are upset.
What I don't really understand is why some cEDH players are so upset. For the longest time, the most popular refrain from the cEDH was that they don't need their own format because they just want to play EDH as competitively as possible, not some other format. Well, the RC have made it very clear that they don't take cEDH into account at all when banning cards, so this was a pretty foreseeable result.
Personally I think they should probably split off into their own format if they want to, but I imagine many will stay behind to continue to play cEDH.
Agreed, its roots are a casual format with high variability. Rule 0 should apply as much as much to any CEDH group of any size, so this is ultimately a set of guidelines. The committee thinks that...
Agreed, its roots are a casual format with high variability. Rule 0 should apply as much as much to any CEDH group of any size, so this is ultimately a set of guidelines. The committee thinks that these are doing more damage to the format than not; that's that. Playgroups should take that into account, but discuss what they want to do to prevent power level or budget arms races. CEDH formats should be figuring out good banlists to decide for themselves what's overcentralizing and what's not if they disagree.
Wizards of the Coast has handed down some somewhat surprising bans in the EDH (Commander) format. Effectively removing a couple sources of fast Mana, and a bad gameplay piece. I think Dockside is...
Wizards of the Coast has handed down some somewhat surprising bans in the EDH (Commander) format. Effectively removing a couple sources of fast Mana, and a bad gameplay piece.
I think Dockside is the biggest hit. It creates so many loops so easily that it made enabled certain combos just by itself.
I am clearly out of the loop, but I didn't think WotC really handled ban lists for EDH? Edit: WotC don't directly control the format. The Commander Rules Committee makes the ban lists etc.
I am clearly out of the loop, but I didn't think WotC really handled ban lists for EDH?
Edit: WotC don't directly control the format. The Commander Rules Committee makes the ban lists etc.
I am unimpressed with this update.
Jewelled Lotus is now the most useless card ever printed. The only format where it could be played has now made it illegal. One couldn't even combo this for infinite mana, it's just a light boost to cast some commanders.
The Dockside ban is rough. I have to revise every single red deck I have, as Dockside is an auto-include for me. A lot of people groan when Dockside comes out, but fail to realize that Dockside actually scales with what your opponents are doing; if they don't have a good board, it's not particularly awful to deal with.
I don't run Mana Crypt outside of one single deck, so I'll have to find a worthwhile zero mana artifact to replace it with.
I don't play cEDH, so my view is fairly casual, but there are so many banned cards that just seem silly to have banned, and that's just getting worse.
Is that a very casual view though? Those three cards are all decidedly non-casual in my view - I have a single deck I'd even consider playing at the same table as a deck running any of these, because I can't possibly match the explosiveness otherwise and refuse to invest hundreds in must-plays to keep up otherwise... If dockside is an auto include for you, I'd take that to directly mean that you play high power to fringe already - do you disagree? Does everybody in your playgroups play these cards?
Yeah I was debating on posting a similar dissenting opinion. Even if they do not consider their table Cedh, it is certainly was more "competitive" than my table, where none of these cards are played.
I left a lengthy reply below, but it boils down to this: you can't judge a deck by the inclusion of a single card. I am 95% confident that I could sit down at your table and play a fun game with you and your pod and be in no way dominant, while using a deck that used at least one of the cards that were just banned.
I'm sure we could sit down and have fun, but I would counter that your uses of the cards are in the minority. Certainly the vast majority of the times I've seen these cards are friends who are having a ton of fun in magic and dropping serious money to upgrade (and outpacing our table in the process) or someone rolling up to a nearly full pod at an LGS with a "trust me bro, it's a casual deck" and then attempting to steamroll.
Sure you can't define a deck by a single card. I have a wrenn and six that has gone off occasionally in an otherwise very poorly performing deck. But if we were to look at the top 100 most competitive, or most "salty" decks (I know those mean different things, take your pick) I guarantee at least 95 of those decks will have at least one of those cards. Probably two. So it's a good sign that a deck is probably less on the casual side.
I also think these cards do scare off people from getting into Magic. I remember being scared off a bit in my first five games when people started telling me how much the cardboard they just played was worth. There is certainly an element of pay to play in many circles. If you constantly find yourself losing to friends or players at your LGS because they are beating you on the mana curve because of these cards, you certainly feel like you "have" to spend the money to keep up.
In the end I think the Commander Board decided that these cards were doing more harm than good. Sure there will be others, but we will see what they will be. Wizards certainly seems to be power creeping the game. But banned cards can still be played. You just have to ask. I think that makes the conversation a lot more healthy. Cause having to sit a friend down cause they are spending more than anyone else at the table can afford to win more games sucks. But by asking permission, rather than making newer players suffer through it until they can't take it anymore, is a lot more healthy.
And hell, maybe I can play my secret lair Primeval Titan one of these days.
There's a difference between dominant and streamlined, though; it doesn't need to be a powerful broken finisher tool, it just needs to be the correct choice (however minimally) over every other option - and I mean every other - to become overcentralizing. I've seen one thread about someone lamenting their Niv-Mizzet deck is unplayable due to the Dockside ban; I feel for people that the card was a semi-consistent red ramp option, but that deck was also apparently running Goblin Recruiter to specifically be Dockside draw #2... That dogmatic optimization is where a CEDH ban split seems way more appropriate than keeping it default unbanned in the casual sphere.
EDIT: Or really I should say, dogmatic optimization without ubiquitous and obvious accessibility. Mind you I disagree with their Sol Ring reasoning, it'd be nice to give everyone a slot back, but that's sorta as whatever as Command Tower is.
I think you cannot judge a deck by the inclusion of a single card. Putting a Dockside Extortionist, despite it being a very good and efficient card, into a deck does not make it cEDH. For example, if you took the Endless Punishment precon, and took out Solemn Simulacrum and added in Dockside, it would still accomplish almost exactly nothing at a cEDH table, and I don't think that anyone would argue that the deck is now cEDH because of the inclusion of that single card.
I play a fair bit of EDH using Tabletop Simulator, and the rest in person. I've got 10 paper decks and about 50 digital ones. Of those, one of them is built with the intent to sit at a cEDH table, and it does run two of these cards (Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt) because it's a Jhoira Weatherlight Captain deck that wants as many 0-cost artifacts as possible. This is the only cEDH deck I have, and likely the only one I will ever make, since my friends don't like cEDH.
The friend group that I play with is definitely casual. They strongly discourage things like infinite combos, we regularly go to turn 15 or 20, they like big boards with big creatures doing goofy things. Sometimes games take 3 hours. It's basically the epitome of casual. Only one other guy has Dockside in his decks. My overall win rate for 155 games is 26.45%, which is pretty much spot on what it should be for a group of 4, so I am not dominating this casual group.
My decks (other than the one aforementioned) are usually relatively silly, built on a theme, and appropriate for a casual meta. For example, I have a Xyris, the Writhing Storm deck where all the creatures are snakes and there are a bunch of vehicles that fly; it's called Snakes on a Plane. I've never won a game with it, despite claiming that Dockside counts as a Snake. I have a Wyll Blade of Frontiers / Agent of the Iron Throne deck that does a lot of dice rolling; it included a dockside. I've never won with it either, despite the dockside. I have Jeweled Lotus in a Phage the Untouchable deck, and if that doesn't scream "this is a casual deck" I'm not sure what else could; having a commander that kills you when you cast it unless shenanigans is definitely not a competitive strategy.
What I'm getting at is that the inclusion of one card does not define the power level of a deck. It's why rule 0 conversations are important, and why it's also important to be able to talk about the sort of game that you want to play, and the sort of things you'll be able to do when you play your deck. The inclusion of Dockside in a red deck (the colour which typically has the least ramp) isn't necessarily making it overpowered, it can just be trying to plug holes. It's a powerful card, but if you don't build around it, all it is is a small value add. And while I'm on a bit of a rant anyways, from the point of view of effectiveness vs. cost or expectation vs. reality, it is one of the most disappointing cards for me personally in the friend group I play 95% of my games in. I've played it a bunch, and generally the value is fairly low, because as I said in the parent comment to this, it depends a lot on matching the decks that you're playing against. If they get a good start, it brings you up to speed with their start. The exception is if you're doing something hinky with it, like blinking it a bunch, which I tend not to do - my "blink things in and out of existence" deck is both bad and not red - so I'm not getting the value out of it that one might at a cEDH table. So my personal disappointment with the ban is more about removing it from 4 paper decks, finding a replacement that does something to ramp in decks that have a decided ramp deficiency, and then doing the same for maybe a dozen digital copies of decks. I also think there are a lot of things on the banlist that are silly and should be taken care of by a Rule 0 conversation, and in general, there's at least 3 more now.
I'm ambivalent about the Nadu ban.
I think ultimately a kitchen table game with a stable group of players that know each other and make sure to keep decks compatible is neither what the ban list targets nor where it needs to apply. Your group sounds lovely, and your decks sound fun and not oppressive! I wouldnt be surprised if your friends agree to just let you keep playing those cards, given that you have good data to back up your decks not being op?
When I play, I usually play with randoms at a LGS. While this rarely has happened to me, I have sat down with a deck on a power level of upgraded precon, communicated with the table that this was the power level we all wanted to play, and found myself facing a deck that was very much not that power level - fastmana, free interaction, the whole deal. And that sucked. It was not a fun game, it's an awkward social interaction to then kick a player off the table afterwards, nobody left happy.
To me, the commander banlist seems to be aimed at this kind of situation: an attempt at making a bit of a rule zero that applies by default. I don't think it's perfect at that, but I would say most cards on the list fall in this kind of category - so unfun when somebody just plays them out of nowhere that unless it's agreed to by the players, it's safer to ban the cards by default.
Now, these three cards (nadu is a different story as just a design mistake) are not exactly the kind of "I win in an unfun way" cards like Iona, Flash or Biorhythm. But I believe they represent something I wholeheartedly agree with targeting: the idea of expensive staples that are so good, so expensive and so bland, you kind of would want them in any deck - and if you don't play them, it's often for budget reasons (unless your group explicitly banned them, which most didn't until yesterday). I don't think that adds any fun, complexity or spice to the format - it makes it more explosive, more homogeneous and raises the barrier of entry. And I am happy to see some movement to address that.
Besides, has this impacted your snakes on a plane deck that badly? If no, is the ban really a problem? If yes, isn't that indicative that maybe these cards were a bit too much?
In general, I try to keep my decks legal, since we do with some frequency go to the LGS to play on EDH night, and though it's a small place and we know almost everyone, it's still a good idea that everyone approaches things with the same pool of cards.
I don't think this is going to make any of my decks significantly worse (maybe the Jhoira deck) but I also think that the fundamental problem is not with these cards, but with the people who do exactly what you've talked about and pubstomp. I think of it in a similar way to how Tildes approaches the community - trust people but punish abusers. I accept that that's difficult when the community (in this case "the entirety of EDH players") gets to be a certain size, so you have to take more actions such as this one, but it saddens me to limit the deck building space because some people can't or don't effectively communicate about games.
I do think that the worst of all the bans was Jeweled Lotus, though. It is basically a commander-only card that is now illegal in commander, outside of the niche interaction @Namarie brought up.
Edit: one of the issues with bans like this, is that there are always going to be "the best" cards, and they're always going to be boogeymen that people find unapproachable. Already, the card market is shaking up, and some things are going up in price and will likely be the next staple that gets targeted. Ultimately, I think figuring out how to talk about decks and deck purposes is a better solution than removing things.
Pedantically, there actually was a very silly deck LSV played in Vintage where the mana doubled by Doubling Cube isn't in fact restricted. Loop a lotus or two, double, and go off for more traditional lines with higher than average mana. It was absolutely a gimmick, but he did pull off some wacky wins!
That is an interesting and niche way to make a useless card have some utility. The delight I find in coupling Jeweled Lotus with Doubling Cube is making me slightly less >:( about this piece of cardboard in my hands that went from $120cad to 10 cents.
Edit: I'm realizing that I should sell all my real cards. I mostly play with proxies anyways.
Hey, Jeweled Lotus is now legal for my Illegal Sliver Queen deck! And it's gonna be cheap! Promotions!
Does this imply you’re running a sliver queen deck that’s only allowed to have illegal cards?!?
The gist is, I have a Sliver Queen that lived in my wallet before I learned it was on the Reserve List. So I decided I'd try to make the rest of the deck illegal as well! It's very WIP since I don't get the inspiration/ disposable money often, but I am right now in wake of this... At the moment it's a midrange pile of jank looking to either go aggro or do a Mana Echoes combo with Queen. I'd like to probably turn it into a full combo deck doing the latter.
The cards I have right now are:
Karoo, Forest, Wasteland, Ancient Tomb, Swamp, Island, and Xiahou Dun, The One-Eyed from the One Piece TCG, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokémon TCG, Wyvern, Dominion, and Wixoss. (Xiahou Dun cracks me up.)
The promo Duel Masters printing of Muscle Sliver, and their Sliver Queen too in case mine has to actually operate like a card...
Cwick Swiver, fwom va Wegions expansion. (Cwickswiver, fwom va Wegions expansion? What's vat?)
Sliv-Drazi Monstrosity and Banding Sliver, from Mystery Booster.
Who / What / When / Where / Why
Dregscape Sliver...'s art card.
A Wheel of Fortune tarot sticker. (It's the lööps cat.)
Unquenchable Fury, moonlighting as Unquenchable Fury.
My favorite little piece of serendipity is that a Crystalline Sliver was supposed to be an FNM promo, except the shipment was stolen. So for a while, it was literally illegal to play it until they found it and then gave it out.
Dozens of cards from the World Championship decks.
Stuff for the future. r/magictcg helped with this, and I think I got some from here a while ago:
Dozens of cards from the World Championship decks. Definitely all the painlands, at least.
Sliv-Mizzet, The Firemind needs to go in, as does Sliver of Hope.
More silver-border/acorn cards and art cards.
Demonic Attorney?
The FTV Arbor Dryad.
There's a World's Smallest deck; I'd run the Night's Whisper.
There's an oversized Gaea's Cradle that I'd like to get a normal-sized proxy of for the "huh?" factor. There's also, uh, all the oversized cards... Like the weird thick etched Sliver Hivemother from the precon...
I want to grab a Solemn Simulacrum artist proof, maybe some others that are relevant to the deck. But they're pricey...
LotR card game has a Word of Command. Dragon Ball Masters has
Jiren,Survival of the Fittest. Yu-Gi-Oh has an Intruder Alarm, which is good for the combo, and dozens of others. Vampire: TES has a Black Lotus. Across the Obelisk has Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor. World of Warcraft TCG has a Counterspell.I can grab some funny proxies, but I particularly want a Shahrazad in there. There's an edit of Zirda with the Firefox logo I'd use since it helps the combo.
Armageddon had trading cards. Like, Bruce Willis. That'll destroy some lands alright.
It should have proxy of Faceless Agent and Tezzeret's Reckoning from Arena, as well as Oracle of the Alpha from MB2. Also proxies of Whimsy and Gem Bazaar from Shandalar, while I'm at it.
I've tried to AI-generate a few Slivers, but I haven't seen any funny enough without being stupid overpowered to run.
Roborosewater and r/CustomMTG cards.
Mess with "Silver" cards and their card text. eg A
ncientSliver Dragon, Karn, Sliver Golem, Moonsliver Spear, Sliverback Shaman...I'm figuring out what card I want to break the singleton rule with, or the 100 card rule... Or the banlist rule, which this may have solved.
I may ask the Magic: The Circlejerking discord and sub to vote on a Sliver.
I really want to run the Silvala/Panglacial Wurm combo as a backup lose-con.
Not the racist cards...
Damaged copies of anything else I need to make the deck work.
As always I love suggestions when people have them.
I think you should stick in an Urza Academy Headmaster and maybe Urza's Fun House ( you can stipulate that you don't have an Mine, Power-Plant or Tower, so you can't generate infinite mana).
I'm currently watching the craziness in my LGS's discord, the owners seem really down cuz this effectively killed a bunch of product for them.
Jeweled Lotus was basically a commander only card, seems like a weird thing to ban a card that is only playable in one format basically in it's only format.
Yeah, I think the evaporation of hundreds of thousands of dollars in the secondary market of MTG is going to cause some problems for sure.
My LGS thankfully is rsther diverse, and has a lot of ways to recover from a loss like this, but smaller EDH-centered stores I worry more about.
Yeah, same, my LGS is basically a Flesh and Blood shop anyways, but MTG is still super popular regardless, so it'll be felt regardless
Preserving the secondary market should be the absolute last consideration behind any MTG decision. Fuck the speculators. Card shops that exist solely as middlemen have always been on shaky ground and this highlights the instability.
I think I’d agree with you except that WOTC has shown that they already have no regard for supporting stores who don’t sell singles either.
Edit: I’m assuming we’re talking about stores that exist as middlemen to make money, but the money pays for space for people to play. If it’s just a storefront without providing play space, yeah I agree, those don’t have my support.
I think people and stores that hoard massive quantities of these types of cards are terrible, and I don't really feel bad for them. And stores like the one I play at are diverse enough and have enough general stock, this doesn't kill them.
I do feel bad for the new-ish hobby store owner who juiced up his display case from his own collection. Or the hobby store where $500 of lost potential sales could spell disaster. I've been to, and seen stores like this.
I am (and shouldn't have been) surprised that there are fellow MTG players here. I feel silly about being surprised by this.
Hello fellow Magic players! I'm that one random guy on Arena playing a ~250 card 5 color value pile in the Standard Ranked queue! Nice to meet you all.
Prices of these cards according to mtggoldfish:
$85
$95
$200
$3
I think a lot of players will be happy that something is being done to curb fast mana, but the people who own these cards other than Nadu are going to be pretty upset
Yeah I only own a Nadu out of all these, and pretty impressed it got banned in such high company. I have seen these do some damage in my play group, with people kinda paying to play and dramatically increasing the competitiveness of their decks.
I really like this, but I understand why some people are upset.
What I don't really understand is why some cEDH players are so upset. For the longest time, the most popular refrain from the cEDH was that they don't need their own format because they just want to play EDH as competitively as possible, not some other format. Well, the RC have made it very clear that they don't take cEDH into account at all when banning cards, so this was a pretty foreseeable result.
Personally I think they should probably split off into their own format if they want to, but I imagine many will stay behind to continue to play cEDH.
Agreed, its roots are a casual format with high variability. Rule 0 should apply as much as much to any CEDH group of any size, so this is ultimately a set of guidelines. The committee thinks that these are doing more damage to the format than not; that's that. Playgroups should take that into account, but discuss what they want to do to prevent power level or budget arms races. CEDH formats should be figuring out good banlists to decide for themselves what's overcentralizing and what's not if they disagree.
Wizards of the Coast has handed down some somewhat surprising bans in the EDH (Commander) format. Effectively removing a couple sources of fast Mana, and a bad gameplay piece.
I think Dockside is the biggest hit. It creates so many loops so easily that it made enabled certain combos just by itself.
I am clearly out of the loop, but I didn't think WotC really handled ban lists for EDH?
Edit: WotC don't directly control the format. The Commander Rules Committee makes the ban lists etc.
This is correct, WOTC just helps amplify the signal to those who don't follow the commander rules committee
I mean, the RC site is always down due to overload when something like this happens. It's good to have it mirrored.
Here's another update from the RC defending the choices and noting they could've done comms better. Also noting they got threats! Coolsville, internet