I think killing steam workshop support is the bigger story here. Moving all modding to a paradox controlled platform under the guise of mods for console users sounds nice on the surface but once...
I think killing steam workshop support is the bigger story here.
Moving all modding to a paradox controlled platform under the guise of mods for console users sounds nice on the surface but once you consider the implications of paradox having that control things are a little bit concerning.
If I make a mod and later CS2 DLC has similar functionality, paradox can nuke my mod from their platform forcing everyone to buy the DLC if they want that functionality.
Also, when paradox is ready a decade from now to release CS3 they can drop support/kill the mod platform for CS2 to ensure everyone needs to buy the new game. Or they might just decide they don't want the cost of maintaining the platform and kill it for that reason. This could happen to steam workshop as well but it's much less likely IMO.
Consoles are also unlikely to have full mod support. It's likely that at best it will be for cosmetic assets because console makers are not particularly friendly to the idea of user defined code running on their platforms.
Going with Paradox Mods instead of the workshop also pretty much forces the ... less than stellar ... Paradox launcher on people that want to play with mods.
Going with Paradox Mods instead of the workshop also pretty much forces the ... less than stellar ... Paradox launcher on people that want to play with mods.
I can't say I'm really concerned about any of this beyond the inconvenience of having to use something other than the Workshop. Paradox doesn't really have a history of doing any of that (AFAIK),...
I can't say I'm really concerned about any of this beyond the inconvenience of having to use something other than the Workshop. Paradox doesn't really have a history of doing any of that (AFAIK), and I know for CK3 at least you can get mods from 3rd party sites in addition to their own offering.
And Paradox isn't the only party involved here, as they're just publishing. Colossal Order is the actual developer and while we don't know the terms of their contract, I'd imagine they have enough say that we can take their track record into consideration as well. (again, AFAIK), they have a pretty good reputation going back to the Cities In Motion days.
It's not like we're dealing with EA or Ubisoft here, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Still, losing the convenience and ease of use that the Workshop provides is a real bummer.
The worrying thing is the insistence on a mod delivery platform that they control. Together with moving to their own launcher, it seems like they might be showing early symptoms of...
The worrying thing is the insistence on a mod delivery platform that they control. Together with moving to their own launcher, it seems like they might be showing early symptoms of enshittification.
I think it's important to separate Paradox the developer from Paradox the publisher. The devs are working hard to keep their grand strategy games running well, and if people have an issue with...
I think it's important to separate Paradox the developer from Paradox the publisher. The devs are working hard to keep their grand strategy games running well, and if people have an issue with their monetization strategy, well it's their prerogative to dislike it, but it keeps multiple teams of people working to improve each game and release new content.
The publisher, on the other hand, is well down the road to being shitty. They've been trying to make a buck in less than great ways for a few years now, since they switched from having a CEO who was a gamer and programmer to having one who's a business person first.
My partner plays Cities: Skylines and has been looking forward to #2. Just yesterday she was telling me about this issue of moving all mods to their own platform and her anger over it. From what I...
My partner plays Cities: Skylines and has been looking forward to #2. Just yesterday she was telling me about this issue of moving all mods to their own platform and her anger over it.
From what I understand, this is a very poorly thought out transition attempt. For those who recognize the reference, I am reminded of The Cathedral and the Bazaar, with the new curated / approval-gated mod system being the Cathedral and the existing mod system being the Bazaar.
Either system can work. Apple is an example of the Cathedral framework and they have a largely happy, near cult-following consumer base that has been very successful for them. Linux or to an extent also Android are examples of the Bazaar, where anyone who wants can make whatever they want to operate on the platform and they don't need approval or permission for the most part.
In my view, Cities: Skylines has taken a large Bazaar-style modding community that has a significant userbase and following, and handed down an edict from on-high telling that community "You will now follow the Strictures and Commandments of the Cathedral. Those who we deem unworthy shall be excommunicated."
In my view, they have made a rather idiotic move, pissing off not just their playerbase, but their modding devbase who had been quite happy to provide unknown tens of thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands of free labor hours towards creating a massive and diverse mod community which allowed players to pick and choose game changes, quality of life improvements, and more as they pleased.
Not a long term move towards success I think. My partner is already debating cancelling her pre-order and demanding a refund.
i don't think that is a big deal unless they put something in place to force the use of their mod distribution system. It will probably end up like the creation club integration put in skyrim...
i don't think that is a big deal unless they put something in place to force the use of their mod distribution system. It will probably end up like the creation club integration put in skyrim special edition.
simple mods, the kind you can deploy to both console and pc versions, will end up in paradox's system. everything else will end up somewhere like nexus mods. steam workshop offers more flexibility than solutions like creation club, but are still more limited than what you can accomplish outside of these ecosystems.
I really dislike Paradox as a company. Their DLC model means that the full version of their games often costs 200-300 €/$ and more, the price of 4-5 full AAA-titles. Yet the DLCs themselves are...
I really dislike Paradox as a company.
Their DLC model means that the full version of their games often costs 200-300 €/$ and more, the price of 4-5 full AAA-titles. Yet the DLCs themselves are often mediocre, and the amount of work that goes into them doesn't justify the price you'd have to pay for them. They are are targeted at fans of their games who are willing to pay for the complete experience, and I think that's a pretty predatory model of supporting games.
As a counterexample the Factorio devs have been working for years now on one huge DLC add-on that will be priced as much as the full game (between 30 and 35 €/$). That is more than fair for the thousands of hours of gameplay you can get out of it.
And then the Paradox launcher, now this move to control the modding scene... all that is very much not ok for me. I stopped buying their titles a few years ago.
I'm not necessarily defending their practices, but there's a simple truth: nobody has to buy any of the DLCs. In my experience with playing Paradox games (CK2, Stellaris, Cities Skylines) the base...
I'm not necessarily defending their practices, but there's a simple truth: nobody has to buy any of the DLCs. In my experience with playing Paradox games (CK2, Stellaris, Cities Skylines) the base games were perfectly enjoyable without any of the DLCs.
Did I end up buying some DLC? Sure, during some big sales. Did I have to buy all of them due to FOMO or some other concern? Definitely not.
At least you got the right idea: you're voting with your wallet. If more people did that, such business practices wouldn't be common.
I suppose the question is that is the release/bare version considered full-featured? And if it's not there, reviews and just general conversation around the game should reflect that. I myself...
I suppose the question is that is the release/bare version considered full-featured? And if it's not there, reviews and just general conversation around the game should reflect that.
I myself don't really like the model of adding core functionality in the form of DLC (and I think stuff like DLC characters can be considered to be part of that category) -- even if the release version can be considered full-featured. It's also why I'm a bit apprehensive to jump into the simulation games, this drip feed of new features is a bit intimidating because I don't like to be fucked over.
That is certainly true. But it's similar to microtransactions or lootboxes: it just doesn't sit right with me, and I wish that companies would provide better, fairer business models than releasing...
nobody has to buy any of the DLCs.
That is certainly true. But it's similar to microtransactions or lootboxes: it just doesn't sit right with me, and I wish that companies would provide better, fairer business models than releasing dozens of DLCs for hundreds of dollars.
How else do you fund the development of a game that spans 5-10 years after launch? You're either looking at DLC or a subscription. Don't quote me on this but I think some Paradox games offer a...
That is certainly true. But it's similar to microtransactions or lootboxes: it just doesn't sit right with me, and I wish that companies would provide better, fairer business models than releasing dozens of DLCs for hundreds of dollars.
How else do you fund the development of a game that spans 5-10 years after launch? You're either looking at DLC or a subscription. Don't quote me on this but I think some Paradox games offer a subscription option for new players so they don't have to buy all the DLC.
By providing a great base game and winning a large player base in the first place. And by supporting the game with a few (2-4) good, large DLCs for a fair price. And then after a few years release...
By providing a great base game and winning a large player base in the first place. And by supporting the game with a few (2-4) good, large DLCs for a fair price. And then after a few years release the next game. I think that's how basically every other developer does it.
I really don't buy the argument, that Paradox needs to do this to survive. E.g. all DLC for Stellaris currently costs ~ 277 Euros + 40 for the base game. So about 320 bucks for the complete experience. That's the price of five AAA games. In my opinion that's just not fairly priced, that's not what they invested as workload and it's not a good deal. Even if they go on sale they are way overpriced.
But they get away with it, because fans & whales buy the full editions, and even excuse this model, because, yeah, their games are supported for a long time. For the price of several full AAA games.
Stellaris was released in May of 2016. So even setting aside the work they did before release, they've been running a development team to make new content for new content for 7 years and a...
Stellaris was released in May of 2016. So even setting aside the work they did before release, they've been running a development team to make new content for new content for 7 years and a custodian team to improve existing content and balance for two years. That's a good chunk of manpower to dedicate It seems silly to buy it all at once, yes, but that only comes out to $46 a year. Is that unreasonable?
It also isn't that large a chunk of my gaming budget compared to how many hours I have in the game. I've played Stellaris for 2,856.2 hours according to Steam. At $320 bucks for the game and all DLC That ends up being a touch over eleven cents an hour for entertainment.
You can think it's overpriced. For me, Paradox games are among the cheapest of my entertainments.
For the amount of content they actually released, I think so, yes. But yeah, I guess it's all relative. I played several thousand hours of Factorio, which I bought years ago for twenty euros...
but that only comes out to $46 a year. Is that unreasonable?
For the amount of content they actually released, I think so, yes.
But yeah, I guess it's all relative. I played several thousand hours of Factorio, which I bought years ago for twenty euros (which was basically too cheap), and there are many other, normally priced games I spend a lot of time in over the years. So my idea of a good or 'fair' deal is probably simply different, and I guess I tend to be quite critical or strict about this topic when I see high priced games.
Anyway, most important thing is that we have a good time with our games. Have fun!
The sentiment is fine. I'm a gigantic fan of Paradox (Please just link Stellaris 2 into my veins when it releases... one day) but their business model is taking a pounding (from a PR-perspective)...
The sentiment is fine. I'm a gigantic fan of Paradox (Please just link Stellaris 2 into my veins when it releases... one day) but their business model is taking a pounding (from a PR-perspective) now that they're really crunching their devs into the ground.
I loved Cities:Skylines. But I think I avoided the last three DLC's simply because... well, mods did them better?
Unoptimized PC games is just par for the course these days. I was planning on buying this game on release or soon after because I'm a big fan of the first game but now I'm not so sure. Not only is...
Unoptimized PC games is just par for the course these days. I was planning on buying this game on release or soon after because I'm a big fan of the first game but now I'm not so sure.
Not only is performance an issue it also lacks Steam Workshop support. Sure they're replacing it with their own thing but I don't trust that it will offer the same level of usability.
I think killing steam workshop support is the bigger story here.
Moving all modding to a paradox controlled platform under the guise of mods for console users sounds nice on the surface but once you consider the implications of paradox having that control things are a little bit concerning.
If I make a mod and later CS2 DLC has similar functionality, paradox can nuke my mod from their platform forcing everyone to buy the DLC if they want that functionality.
Also, when paradox is ready a decade from now to release CS3 they can drop support/kill the mod platform for CS2 to ensure everyone needs to buy the new game. Or they might just decide they don't want the cost of maintaining the platform and kill it for that reason. This could happen to steam workshop as well but it's much less likely IMO.
Consoles are also unlikely to have full mod support. It's likely that at best it will be for cosmetic assets because console makers are not particularly friendly to the idea of user defined code running on their platforms.
Going with Paradox Mods instead of the workshop also pretty much forces the ... less than stellar ... Paradox launcher on people that want to play with mods.
I can't say I'm really concerned about any of this beyond the inconvenience of having to use something other than the Workshop. Paradox doesn't really have a history of doing any of that (AFAIK), and I know for CK3 at least you can get mods from 3rd party sites in addition to their own offering.
And Paradox isn't the only party involved here, as they're just publishing. Colossal Order is the actual developer and while we don't know the terms of their contract, I'd imagine they have enough say that we can take their track record into consideration as well. (again, AFAIK), they have a pretty good reputation going back to the Cities In Motion days.
It's not like we're dealing with EA or Ubisoft here, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Still, losing the convenience and ease of use that the Workshop provides is a real bummer.
The worrying thing is the insistence on a mod delivery platform that they control. Together with moving to their own launcher, it seems like they might be showing early symptoms of enshittification.
Time will tell.
I think it's important to separate Paradox the developer from Paradox the publisher. The devs are working hard to keep their grand strategy games running well, and if people have an issue with their monetization strategy, well it's their prerogative to dislike it, but it keeps multiple teams of people working to improve each game and release new content.
The publisher, on the other hand, is well down the road to being shitty. They've been trying to make a buck in less than great ways for a few years now, since they switched from having a CEO who was a gamer and programmer to having one who's a business person first.
My partner plays Cities: Skylines and has been looking forward to #2. Just yesterday she was telling me about this issue of moving all mods to their own platform and her anger over it.
From what I understand, this is a very poorly thought out transition attempt. For those who recognize the reference, I am reminded of The Cathedral and the Bazaar, with the new curated / approval-gated mod system being the Cathedral and the existing mod system being the Bazaar.
Either system can work. Apple is an example of the Cathedral framework and they have a largely happy, near cult-following consumer base that has been very successful for them. Linux or to an extent also Android are examples of the Bazaar, where anyone who wants can make whatever they want to operate on the platform and they don't need approval or permission for the most part.
In my view, Cities: Skylines has taken a large Bazaar-style modding community that has a significant userbase and following, and handed down an edict from on-high telling that community "You will now follow the Strictures and Commandments of the Cathedral. Those who we deem unworthy shall be excommunicated."
In my view, they have made a rather idiotic move, pissing off not just their playerbase, but their modding devbase who had been quite happy to provide unknown tens of thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands of free labor hours towards creating a massive and diverse mod community which allowed players to pick and choose game changes, quality of life improvements, and more as they pleased.
Not a long term move towards success I think. My partner is already debating cancelling her pre-order and demanding a refund.
Thank you for linking The Cathedral and The Bazaar, very insightful
i don't think that is a big deal unless they put something in place to force the use of their mod distribution system. It will probably end up like the creation club integration put in skyrim special edition.
simple mods, the kind you can deploy to both console and pc versions, will end up in paradox's system. everything else will end up somewhere like nexus mods. steam workshop offers more flexibility than solutions like creation club, but are still more limited than what you can accomplish outside of these ecosystems.
I really dislike Paradox as a company.
Their DLC model means that the full version of their games often costs 200-300 €/$ and more, the price of 4-5 full AAA-titles. Yet the DLCs themselves are often mediocre, and the amount of work that goes into them doesn't justify the price you'd have to pay for them. They are are targeted at fans of their games who are willing to pay for the complete experience, and I think that's a pretty predatory model of supporting games.
As a counterexample the Factorio devs have been working for years now on one huge DLC add-on that will be priced as much as the full game (between 30 and 35 €/$). That is more than fair for the thousands of hours of gameplay you can get out of it.
And then the Paradox launcher, now this move to control the modding scene... all that is very much not ok for me. I stopped buying their titles a few years ago.
e: english hard
I'm not necessarily defending their practices, but there's a simple truth: nobody has to buy any of the DLCs. In my experience with playing Paradox games (CK2, Stellaris, Cities Skylines) the base games were perfectly enjoyable without any of the DLCs.
Did I end up buying some DLC? Sure, during some big sales. Did I have to buy all of them due to FOMO or some other concern? Definitely not.
At least you got the right idea: you're voting with your wallet. If more people did that, such business practices wouldn't be common.
I suppose the question is that is the release/bare version considered full-featured? And if it's not there, reviews and just general conversation around the game should reflect that.
I myself don't really like the model of adding core functionality in the form of DLC (and I think stuff like DLC characters can be considered to be part of that category) -- even if the release version can be considered full-featured. It's also why I'm a bit apprehensive to jump into the simulation games, this drip feed of new features is a bit intimidating because I don't like to be fucked over.
That is certainly true. But it's similar to microtransactions or lootboxes: it just doesn't sit right with me, and I wish that companies would provide better, fairer business models than releasing dozens of DLCs for hundreds of dollars.
Just wanted to comment on that.
How else do you fund the development of a game that spans 5-10 years after launch? You're either looking at DLC or a subscription. Don't quote me on this but I think some Paradox games offer a subscription option for new players so they don't have to buy all the DLC.
By providing a great base game and winning a large player base in the first place. And by supporting the game with a few (2-4) good, large DLCs for a fair price. And then after a few years release the next game. I think that's how basically every other developer does it.
I really don't buy the argument, that Paradox needs to do this to survive. E.g. all DLC for Stellaris currently costs ~ 277 Euros + 40 for the base game. So about 320 bucks for the complete experience. That's the price of five AAA games. In my opinion that's just not fairly priced, that's not what they invested as workload and it's not a good deal. Even if they go on sale they are way overpriced.
But they get away with it, because fans & whales buy the full editions, and even excuse this model, because, yeah, their games are supported for a long time. For the price of several full AAA games.
Stellaris was released in May of 2016. So even setting aside the work they did before release, they've been running a development team to make new content for new content for 7 years and a custodian team to improve existing content and balance for two years. That's a good chunk of manpower to dedicate It seems silly to buy it all at once, yes, but that only comes out to $46 a year. Is that unreasonable?
It also isn't that large a chunk of my gaming budget compared to how many hours I have in the game. I've played Stellaris for 2,856.2 hours according to Steam. At $320 bucks for the game and all DLC That ends up being a touch over eleven cents an hour for entertainment.
You can think it's overpriced. For me, Paradox games are among the cheapest of my entertainments.
For the amount of content they actually released, I think so, yes.
But yeah, I guess it's all relative. I played several thousand hours of Factorio, which I bought years ago for twenty euros (which was basically too cheap), and there are many other, normally priced games I spend a lot of time in over the years. So my idea of a good or 'fair' deal is probably simply different, and I guess I tend to be quite critical or strict about this topic when I see high priced games.
Anyway, most important thing is that we have a good time with our games. Have fun!
The sentiment is fine. I'm a gigantic fan of Paradox (Please just link Stellaris 2 into my veins when it releases... one day) but their business model is taking a pounding (from a PR-perspective) now that they're really crunching their devs into the ground.
I loved Cities:Skylines. But I think I avoided the last three DLC's simply because... well, mods did them better?
Unoptimized PC games is just par for the course these days. I was planning on buying this game on release or soon after because I'm a big fan of the first game but now I'm not so sure.
Not only is performance an issue it also lacks Steam Workshop support. Sure they're replacing it with their own thing but I don't trust that it will offer the same level of usability.
Same here. I'm going to wait for a week or so to see what happens