ADHD and TODO lists
I hate TODO lists. Even when they're for a single day.
I inevitably put more in my TODO list than I can accomplish in a day. When the new day begins, and I see the tasks I did not accomplish before, I feel anxious, sad, and even ashamed. Then I find some of that anxiety is for how my partner will judge me for the unfinished tasks on my list that she tells herself she expected me to accomplish.
While I have worked on self-compassion for years, occasionally it is not there. I have worked on having boundaries between my partner's own issues and my mental health.
I wonder how others with ADHD, particular those with partners, cope.
EDIT: I started using an allegedly ADHD-friendly planner yesterday. These feelings came pouring out of me this morning, hence the post. Yet I've had these similar difficulties for years.
I don't have ADHD.
I got introduced to time management in a workshop my freshman year in college. Since then I have been torturing myself with unfinished to-do lists like you have. :-)
An interesting concept is the "unschedule" from the book "The Now Habit" by Dr. Neil Fiore. You don't plan out your day, but you do make a blank schedule and fill in how you used your time. The book has other interesting out of the box concepts too. Disclaimer: none of them had me into a diligent to-do list completer.
Over many years, as a gift, my problems with to-do lists have softened. Some of it is just a better attitude with mysterious origins. Some of it is often repeated experiences.
None of that will make you into a perfect to-do list keeper.
It helps me get some value out of to-do lists instead of zero value.
Again. I don't have ADHD. I mention that as your ADHD might not be the only source of your problems using to-do lists.
Good luck.
With ADHD, that desire or its absence is an enormous differentiator in motivation and available energy. That's something I plan on factoring in starting tomorrow. I'm grateful for the reminder!
Unscheduling would be hell with ADHD. We are unintentional masters of yak shaving: one task leads to discovering another then recurse until you don't even know why you're doing what you're doing. See also Malcolm In the Middle for reference if you don't know "yak shaving".
My wife has self-diagnosed herself with ADHD, so take that for what you will. She finds herself in a similar situation. One thing we have found helps her out, is when I get home from work we tell each other three positive things we did that day. Doesn't matter how small they are, just that they were positive.
Her having to think about what positive things she accomplished has apparently helped her be more forgiving towards herself when she doesn't accomplish everything on her to do list for that day.
Thanks for sharing, I live with ADHD, don't have a partner currently. I also recently (about 90 days ago) medication mgmt, and decent mental health support.
I hear that having more tasks on your to-do list than you can get don't in a day, knowing /seeing they're not complete makes you feel anxious, sad, and ashamed - and this is compounded by your partner judging you for her expectations of you.
This sounds challenging, even when taking the time to work on self-compassion it can be hard to summon when it is needed most.
I have my good days and my bad days; medication mgmt has helped with more good than bad, but life still happens.
Something I've done for myself, even though it is cheesey, is that I've set up a morning ritual, that includes making some nice coffee and 'writing (logging the date, weather, moon phase, tides)' a journal entry, then my 3 tasks for the day. There can be less, but no more than 3 (because I know I'm going to get distracted doing something else at some point) so I don't overwhelm myself.
These can have sub-tasks (groceries stores to go to and the list of items, doing laundry might have sheets and clothes, etc) but I don't try to go too crazy.
Then put these in "dedicated" spots of time during the day more as reminders that "I'm doing x thing at y time for z long." Even if it is nothing more than logging this, often it is a short opportunity for me to stream of conscious out what my priorities are and maybe a slight plan; this doesn't always happen but when it does it's nice.
I
gothave a physical planner and a bunch of nice pens in different colors, so I enjoy writing out my priorities for the day and my schedule during my morning ritual; I then transfer these over into my phones calendar, with reminders, and a to-do widget on the home screen (so I see the thing and check it off).This is all well and good if I'm not in a dis-regulated state - then all that goes out the window; honestly that's the whole reason I began seeking medication management support (ADHD + Depression).
Getting back 'on track' is a challenge at these times (but recently I have felt more resilient towards outside stressors), because doing my morning stuff makes me feel more prepared, and general 'better' daily emotional state, and makes it easier to keep doing.
It took me a while to get in the habit of the morning ritual, and really that's the key, trying to get it be 'this is what I do when I wake up' rather than 'I have to do this when I wake up' (which for a bit or if I'm not feeling good is where I'm at mentally )has made it easier to get through day to day.
All that to say - it took me many years of trial and error to find something that works for me; I knew it takes me longer to get stuff done so I wake up earlier and make a small plan (along with other things that help me start my day) that feels manageable to me.
I believe there are many ways to what works for you as there are brains. Maybe some of the things that work for me may for you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ; I just want to say I recognize the struggle, believe there is something that may work.
I know I am very fortunate to have decent mental health support to get me to where I am today. I hope that you're able to get support and if anything I said could be helpful or needs clarifying please do not hesitate to ask.
Edit1: not at a cpu rn, but I'll come back and clean this up because my thumbs can't type for beans.
Edit2: Finally cleaned it up some (sorry, got distracted with other things, shocking I know).
Morning ritual is my goal as well. Currently, it is both relief and (new) stress. I've been here before.
Meds make a huge difference. Me without Adderall is a miserable morning ritual person. Me with is at least ok. But the anxiety visited anyway.
I'm an over-planner/optimizer and expert risk manager (started learning back in 2004). Comes from being a software engineer who became a manager later and now trying to make my own business (partly due to funemployment and, of the rest, my accepted incongruence with the banal and socially accepted cruelties of contemporary capitalism and the employer-employee relationship—but I digress. ADHD!). I tend to manage the anxiety of unknowns by defining them and then confronting them systematcally. This often pays off long term but it's stressful AF at the beginning when it's just one steep hill to climb after another. Pacing would be lovely but it would mean living with huge unknowns that scare the hell out of me until I slay them with the fire of earned knowledge.
Tough balance.
I’m in the same boat regarding risk management and what my therapist told me was catastrophizing. I feel best when I feel like I’ve at least identified all the possible road blocks and have a plan to get over them. Even if, historically, 90% rarely ever happen.
I’ve had to accept that I just simply am not going to get done all that I think I should. My wife has also learned this and can help me carve out what is truly necessary and what can wait. I might get 1 thing done…and that’s ok, or I might get into that hyper focused state and get twice as much as I planned…and that’s ok. My wife understands that the hyper focus isn’t the norm and I can’t be judged by the “you got so much done yesterday, so why are you so off today”. It took time. I still get crazy anxious, I still get overwhelmed, and I still catastrophize. But I have to step back and say it’s ok.
Lastly, my community is huge. I’m a Christian so I have a great group of people around me that know my ADHD and the struggles I have and can lift me up when I’m struggling. Even if you aren’t religious or anything, I would suggest finding a group you can lean on. It’s absolutely invaluable in pulling me out of anxiety or deep depression. Meds always help me get on the right path to get out of these times but the community around me allows it to go so much faster.
Just my two cents.
Thanks for sharing (again) @elight; becoming a risk management expert is the best way to turn anxiety into a super power. If I am already thinking about everything that can go wrong, lets just work backwards and mitigate the issues (to the best of my ability)!
I very much hear that (becoming an over-planner/optimizer), my background is in leadership and what you're describing falls under what is sometimes referred to the analyst architect (the link goes through 4 different styles of leadership as a part of a larger lesson plan). In regards to the optimizer aspect, I know for me if I have a hard time focusing, I want the most efficient way to complete a task so it reduces the chances of me getting distracted.
So, just this week I actually received a diagnosis for Autism Spectrum Disorder as well (sans cognitive / verbal impairments) so some of the stuff I mentioned may not be true for you. I know I've got the constant battle of "No routines! only spontaneity (the ADHD manifesting)!" and "I need a solid structure and routine, and I want everything to be absolutely perfect (the ASD manifesting)."
Is there something about living with the huge unknowns that scare you specifically? Is it generally the uncertainty or fear of failure due to a lack of information?
Do you also have a therapist / counselor that you're working with?
What does your goal setting look like?
Also what is the ADHD specific planner you're using (maybe it's in the rest of the thread and I'll check after leaving this post)?
How does one go about an ASD diagnosis (or absence of it)? I labeled myself a failed perfectionist by undergrad. Since then, I've seen life primarily as a string of failures, despite outcomes. Each outcome has some . I do not know if that and ASD can coexist. Or maybe it can with extreme depression? This, too, has been much of my life: the world is not as I would have it and, so, it's largely been a struggle to exist within it.
My anxiety goes way back to childhood. I believe it
was inculcated through bullying and repeated punishments for failure. "Risk management", for many years, was merely "attempting to anticipate where the next blow would come from".
20 years ago, I received an informal education, in a business context, for using that same curse as a tool to anticipate, measure, and systematically reduce probabilities of failure. It's been something of a survival tool ever since.
But it isn't a way to live. It's a way to survive. Looking for the next failure has left me with 51 years of few dreams, fewer realized, and many regrets.
The fear is manifold; however, ultimately, it is of an existential nature. I have largely overcome the fear of failure after having failed so many times and still being here, in some sense, afterward.
The ADHD planner is a template for an app I like: GoodNotes. It is, primarily, a Franklin-Covey-style planner with added elements that may appeal to ADHDers. To me, they feel bolted on.
Like you, I have the same "fuck routines; I need to be me!" attitude coupled with the nearly hypocritical "rituals and structure make the day so much easier" belief. These coexist... non-optimally.
I've run out of things I can remember to respond to.
Oh, I solved this one years ago! Also have ADHD btw.
I keep two to-do lists.
I have a mid-to-long term to-do list where I throw stuff like "paint living room." It can get done when it gets done but I should probably do it at some point. This list is a piece of notebook paper that hangs on my fridge.
My other list is the daily list, which I make new every day. I first put tasks in chronological order if possible, and then in order of priority if a definite timeline isn't possible.
I know the stuff at the bottom is my extra "if I have time stuff." I know it doesn't get done a lot of days. So at the end of every day, I sort what's left into three categories:
Not going to get done. Wasn't that important in the first place.
Needs to be moved to tomorrow to-do list.
Moved to the long-term to-do list.
When I make my daily list, if I find that I have a light day ahead of me, I will pick up one of my mid-to-long term tasks.
Especially if I have a couple of light days, I'll make deals with myself. Like, I can brainrot and play video games Sunday afternoon as long as I paint the living room Saturday. That usually works. If it doesn't, I follow through and paint on Sunday, denying myself the reward or hurrying so I can maybe still sneak it in.
Edit: Should add that I'm medicated now, but this method worked during a 7+ year break I took from ADHD meds.
Most of the coping skills I developed were during the unmedicated period. ADHD is all about creating systems that don't rely on memory or motivation.
Your concept in helpful app form (I believe iOS-only, sorry folks): Twodos
Here's something that blew my mind when I learned about it recently. It was the comment section of an Ask a Manager post: https://www.askamanager.org/2024/10/succeeding-at-work-if-youre-neurodivergent.html
First, there is the idea that we're all different, and what works for one person with ADHD will be the opposite of helpful for another. This idea was not new to me, but it's always good to reinforce it.
Second, though, was how many people who commented that they have to change systems every so often because the old one stops working for them. This was new to me. I always wondered why I kept trying to find a magic bullet, and I'd stick to it for a while and very sloooowly attempt to reinforce the habit, and then one day it would all come crashing down. I thought I could find one thing that worked for me and stay with it forever, and the previous systems were just ones that didn't fit me. But perhaps this wasn't the case after all.
(Incidentally, a lot of good suggestions in that whole comment section for different task management systems!)
Yeah, the realization that I don't have to find a perfect system to stick to but can change systems whenever one stops working helped me a lot. I did write about it here. The reason I am replying to you specifically is that I also found that you can re-use systems that stopped working before. So I don't need to find new systems every single damn time, as long as it has been long enough my brain will be tricked into thinking it is something new and happily go along with it.
I also struggle with executive dysfunction.
One thing I’ve been trying recently that may or may not help other people is what I call expectation journaling.
It’s more or less something I invented on my own to help myself. Someone may have come up with a similar idea independently, but AFAIK, there’s not any research about effectiveness.
The premise: Instead of writing what you want to get done in a day, or what you plan to get done, write what you expect to get done. This is fundamentally a predictive exercise. (I do it either evening of the day before or day of; it’s probably more helpful to do the day before.)
I try not to actively hold myself to my predictions. I always will, just because by writing something down, you are more likely to do it (that’s part of the point of TODO lists). But it isn’t a moral failure if I don’t get my list done, it’s a predictive failure.
This system is intended to take advantage of the fact that if you decided something is important yesterday, you’ll probably think it’s important today. However, it also acknowledges (like many other comments have) that we often give ourselves too much to do because our expectations are super optimistic.
I began practicing expectation journaling to train myself to keep my expectations in line with my realistic ability. Note that the nature of this journal means it cannot replace hard requirements (where it is a moral failing if you don’t do something, like attend an important event), so I still use calendars, Most/Must prioritization, and other time management tools if I really need to do something on a specific day.
I also write down how long (in a range) I expect time-flexible events and tasks to take and how I expect to feel doing certain tasks (e.g., fear, excitement, anxiety) in the spirit of Cope Ahead from Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (by knowing an emotion is coming, you can be prepared to deal with it).
Let me know if you try this! Whether it helps you or not. Might publish a longer piece about this if it’s actually helpful to others.
While not entirely the same, I did come up with a system that involves journaling of some sort. Reading your implementation I feel like it is based on some similar principles. Though part of it has changed since then
I just accept that not everything on ANY list I make ever will get done. I write my list in a note app on my phone and I don't share it with my wife... I don't hide it or anything... and I usually never look at it again after that day.
I tell my partner about my successes that day and if she says "I wish you had gotten this thing done" then... Idk, sorry I started doing other things. At this point in the relationship she isn't happy with me exactly but she knows what to expect.
As far as actually completing tasks goes, I sometimes set timers. Even though I have privacy concerns about it being in my house... I use an Alexa thing to do this so that I dont get sidetracked on my phone. For example, I'll set a timer for 10 minutes and go so chores for 10 minutes. Then I'll set a timer for 20 minutes and do something I want to do that's not productive.
I feel the partner issue. When I experience what you describe, it causes me to share less until there's a gaping chasm of silence around things that matter.
And, so, couples counseling.
I am a bit late to the party, but do feel I have a bit more to contribute that has not been mentioned yet.
Potential hot take: Anybody who claims to have solved it with a single method either doesn't have ADHD or hasn't truly solved it.
Slightly milder take: I have met few people with ADHD who have been able to stick to a single system. A lot of them feel guilty about it, which I think is the wrong mindset.
That doesn't mean I don't have a grip on things, it just means that I approach the solution a bit differently.
I have made peace with the fact that a system sometimes stops working for me. The system that works for me is that I have trained myself to be aware enough of this happening and figuring out a system to switch to. Basically tricking the ADHD part of my brain that gets excited about new things by offering it a new system to do the same things.
I wrote about it a while ago as well. And, sure enough, the system I mentioned there has morphed into something else now. Although I still use aspects of it, as simply writing down my thoughts on physical paper does help me as a pre-filter for whatever todo system I am using. Basically, the smaller notebook now has been replaced with something else.
One thing to note here is that you don't always need to invent new systems. Once a system hasn't been used for a while, my brain will have largely forgotten about it and be happy to use it again for a while. So I always have a bunch of sticky notes available, always a few notebooks on hand, etc. Because I know that plastering my monitor with sticky notes is something that can work for a while.
Ha! Thanks for the hot take.
Just wanted to mention for anyone thinking about their executive functioning issues: there are other neurodiversities (specifically for me, ASD) that also impact executive function. I have been diagnosed with ADHD, but based on my personal understanding of the condition and myself, I think that was a misdiagnosis from the ASD's impact on my executive functioning.
I typically just make a to-do list with the Internet of finishing stuff on it within the week. Generally just pick a couple of things a day, honestly what I know I can manage. Anything more after that is a nice bonus. Doesn't always happen ofc.
I find using this https://goblin.tools/ can help break down some barriers.
I have ADHD and I've solved this one for myself (note: everyone's ADHD manifests differently so your mileage may vary). These often recommended things did not work for me:
My first working version was in Notion. Brief description:
The list gets so long so fast that my brain learned that it's not meant to ever get completely done. I don't even see most of the list without scrolling - only the beginning with the most important tasks. I don't have to have any restraint when it comes to adding new tasks, which means adding them can be done without expending mental energy. The only time I actually focus on the list is when rearranging, and that's productive because it immediately alleviates my task-related anxiety.
Nowadays I have a more elaborate system running in Obsidian. It isn't as easy to describe but the main difference is that I'm now dividing my tasks into several different notes/categories across two different vaults: one for work tasks, one for everyday life. I have several QuickAdd commands with keyboard shortcuts that allow me to insert new tasks in the appropriate notes and with the needed parameters so quickly that my focus doesn't break off from whatever I'm actually doing. This has allowed me to list even more tasks and in a more granular way than was ever possible with Notion where inserting is a more cumbersome.
I then have queries that bring up collections of tasks according to what I want to see. I use the Tasks plugin that automatically time stamps a task when I mark it done, and my daily note has a query that collates every done task from that day. I have even less anxiety now because I get to mark even smaller scale tasks done, which means I'll have produced a decently sized list at the end of each day.
TLDR: whatever you can do that helps you focus on what you've accomplished, rather than what hasn't been done yet, will help tremendously.
My approach is to limit myself to a set number of items that can go on the list. For example, I pick three things I can reasonably accomplish in the day and put them on an index card. They're my top priorities or, if I'm just not feeling it, achievable with little energy. I also like to make a note of how long I think it will take vs how long it took me.
If I do something that wasn't on the list, I add it and cross it off. Might not be planned but it's what my brain was willing to engage in (or that came up) and it still got done.
The main thing is striving to have compassion with myself and to work with my brain instead of chastising it for being different or difficult.
I (not diagnosed, but my struggles align strongly with those I hear of from ADHDers) use Google Keep notes for my to-do list at work. My strategy has been to make a loose list for next week on Friday, with each day as a heading item and with tasks under some of the days if I've planned any. After the Friday heading and sublist is one I've called "add to next week," which holds all of the things I hope to do soon-ish, and some things that I'm pretty sure I won't get to, even next week.
So each day I arrive at work and start working on anything truly time-sensitive from that day's list, unless there's a new fire to put out first (which there almost always is). If I get done (or bored) with a task, I check it off. If it wasn't completed, I make a copy of it to add to a later day or the next week catchall, and change the original to reflect that I did some work, e.g. "Fix widget design" becomes "Work on fixing widget design." If a task not on my list gets put on me, I add it to the list when I'm done putting out the fire and check it off immediately. This way I have a record of what I actually accomplished each day in case I'm ever asked about a delay in some project. But also it gives me a sense of accomplishment at the end of the day to see what all I got done. Then, at the end of the week, I copy the whole list and rename the copy with the dates of next week and archive the current one. I delete all the done tasks from the individual days, move some stuff from "add to next week" to some individual days as I see fit, and repeat the whole process next week.
I am zealous about not accepting guilt (from myself) about moving things from today's list to tomorrow's, and from tomorrow's to next week's. The list is to help me stay organized-esque™, but I do not serve it. It is a tool to help me make sure that ideas and tasks don't fall off the face of the earth; it is not a micromanaging boss.
Huge caveat: my workload is often very self-directed, with occasional interruptions for the aforementioned fires I have to put out a few times a day. My boss is generally happy that I'm making progress on something, and keeping the fires to a low smolder.
Hope this helps someone!
If you make a to do list, start by putting something on it that you've already done (no matter how small). It's silly, but it genuinely gives you a little boost to help get other things done.
As for the list itself, everyone is different, but for me personally, "getting started" is what I struggle with the most. Once I've begun something, it's often more difficult for me to stop than it is to press on. For that reason, making it as simple as possible to start a task is the priority.
If any of that is true of you as well, try only putting one thing on the list at a time. Tidying a messy room is difficult because you don't even know where to start, so the trick is just to focus on tidying one area and then the next. You should have your to-do list function the same way.
If you want a to-do list that provides you an overview in order to help with time management, make that a separate to-do list rather than the one you're currently working through.
I don't have ADHD, but my wife does. She has used some of the systems at Organize365 . Apparently the person running it has recently come to an ADHD diagnosis of her own, so she has started to shift into that space. Although her main offerings were developed before the ADHD diagnosis, my wife said the Organize365 systems "made sense to her" and helped her when she was able to stick with them, which wasn't always.
I think the best two answers in here are @TonesTones and @creesch, especially creesch's point about expecting your systems to fall apart and need adjusting. That's a big part of what I've found managing my ADHD - rotating through systems as the novel impact wears off.
Some things that work for me:
My wife hates reminding me.
Making time for fun: I already make too much...
I have had all of the systems. I wind up declaring TODO bankruptcy and choosing a new one almost annually. The overhead of choosing new ones rather than finding a way to sustain one, with all of the attendant upkeep and lack of novelty, is a frustrating ADHD tax. But then ADHD isn't optional.
Have you tried revisiting old systems when they are old enough to be new again? It honestly works for me and removes some of the overhead.
Yes. Doesn't feel good though. I remember the reasons they break down for me. Anxiety around reaching that point makes re-adoption difficult. It's easier to fool myself into optimism for the novel versus revisiting old tools.
Would you mind expanding a bit more on what sort of reasons you feel are involved? If they are different per system just a recent example?
Primary cause: Task system failure. Grows to the point where I feel like a failure. More tasks than I can accomplish reasonably within needed time where many are important and some urgent. System failure occurs where frustration peaks and I stop using the stem entirely.
Secondary cause: Emotional overwhelm due to some part of my life suffering immense failure. Results in hopelessness and loss of sense of agency enough that self-care fails, cascading to general function including this.