41 votes

Blue and red US states were putting period products in schools — then came the anti-trans backlash

42 comments

  1. [5]
    Hobofarmer
    Link
    How quickly kids are forgotten as we "Think of the children!"

    How quickly kids are forgotten as we "Think of the children!"

    27 votes
    1. [4]
      Promonk
      Link Parent
      No one who earnestly argues "think of the children!" actually cares about children beyond their rhetorical utility. If they did, the emphasis would be on children being human and essential parts...

      No one who earnestly argues "think of the children!" actually cares about children beyond their rhetorical utility. If they did, the emphasis would be on children being human and essential parts of society rather than simply being children.

      The only reason to emphasize child-ness when making an argument is to engage the listener's protective instinct, to juice the fear and fight-or-flight responses, all of which almost completely bypass that part of our brains governed by reason and logic. Ain't nobody got time to think things through when the kids are in danger!

      20 votes
      1. [3]
        Gaywallet
        Link Parent
        A common issue with folks who state "think of x" is that they are not, actually, thinking of x. Anti-trans bathroom laws are frequently cast as "think of the women", creating an imaginary bathroom...

        No one who earnestly argues "think of the children!" actually cares about children beyond their rhetorical utility.

        A common issue with folks who state "think of x" is that they are not, actually, thinking of x. Anti-trans bathroom laws are frequently cast as "think of the women", creating an imaginary bathroom harasser of women as "evidence" to pass abhorrent and inhumane laws.

        7 votes
        1. [2]
          Promonk
          Link Parent
          It's especially egregious in that instance, because those who argue that way just take it as a given that either A. some creep is going to pretend to be trans to perv on people in the women's...

          It's especially egregious in that instance, because those who argue that way just take it as a given that either A. some creep is going to pretend to be trans to perv on people in the women's room, or B. trans people are apparently self-evidently sexual predators. I have no idea where either idea comes from, because I've seen nothing to suggest either fantasy has any grounding in reality whatsoever. Even worse, both premises fall apart utterly when you apply just the tiniest bit of critical thinking.

          First, if someone is creep enough to break the toilet taboo for sexual gratification, why would they bother observing social niceties like presenting as the gender the room is designated for? How devoted would someone have to be to toilet creeping to upend their entire life by bucking society's gender expectations just to have pretext for access, and why would they think being an approved gender gives anyone a pass for sexual assault? It makes my brain hurt just trying to reason out how the argument makes any amount of sense whatsoever.

          As for the other thing, to my knowledge, there isn't any research to suggest that trans people are any more or less likely to be sexual predators than the general population, in which case it's completely irrelevant to the topic of restroom security. It would make more sense to ban teachers and clergy from public restrooms, because those professions actually do have higher rates of sexual predators in their ranks. I wonder why I've never heard that proposal floated?

          This whole trans panic phenomenon is exhausting, and I want it to go away already.

          7 votes
          1. Gaywallet
            Link Parent
            They don't at all. In fact, evidence actually proves the opposite to be true. But that really doesn't matter, because it's about emotions, not fact. It's about creating an emotional state or...

            I've seen nothing to suggest either fantasy has any grounding in reality whatsoever

            They don't at all. In fact, evidence actually proves the opposite to be true. But that really doesn't matter, because it's about emotions, not fact. It's about creating an emotional state or providing emotional 'support' to an individual. I put support in quotes there because what's happening is a reinforcement of a negative emotion, fear, and thus one could argue it's a misuse of the word support... but I still use the word support because I think it's important to highlight how it feels to the person with the fear. Validating someone's fear is, well, validating. It feels good to be validated.

            It's an entirely different strategy to make policy on the basis of emotions than on fact, but it's a commonality amongst conservatives and is something we should highlight and pay attention to, because I think there are effective countermeasures which can both validate the fear and pay attention to reality. For most folks who buy into the "protect the x" mentality, it comes from a genuine place of concern for people in their lives - the women and children that they know, and a perceived threat to them. We need to acknowledge their protective instinct, acknowledge that things are scary, but redirect the fear at the actual threat or provide a source of hope by highlighting how protective legislation can help to protect the folks they love. Telling them that they are factually wrong when they are airing their fear is only going to put them on the defensive, and is going to sound like you are telling them that they shouldn't be protecting these individuals, which just isn't going to work.

            This whole trans panic phenomenon is exhausting, and I want it to go away already.

            You and me both, friend.

            5 votes
  2. kfwyre
    Link

    For close to a decade, periods — yes, menstrual periods — had been one of those rare issues that could win legislative support in blue states and red ones.

    Starting in about 2016, legislators from California to Alabama had been passing bills mandating that tampons and pads be readily available in public spaces — especially schools — after researchers found that students who don’t have access to these products miss days as a result. These students are facing what advocates call “period poverty,” meaning that they or their families can’t afford to buy menstrual supplies, which can cost upwards of $20 per cycle. It’s also an issue that particularly affects Black and Latinx people.

    For years, school nurses had been one of the only resources for students in need, many of them paying out-of-pocket for the products themselves. Legislators then successfully argued that schools should be providing those items. For a time, it was a winning strategy — an easy, bipartisan piece of legislation.

    Then something shifted.

    22 votes
  3. [34]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      Menstrual product has always worked for me, which could applied to heating pads too IMO and should, but I hate the need to find the right words to teach cis men how to not be assholes about this....

      Menstrual product has always worked for me, which could applied to heating pads too IMO and should, but I hate the need to find the right words to teach cis men how to not be assholes about this.

      I will say, Trans women do afaik join the time honored "I may hate your guts but if you need a tampon I got you" as much as the rest of us.

      13 votes
    2. [25]
      tanglisha
      Link Parent
      Biohazard protection devices.

      Biohazard protection devices.

      8 votes
      1. [25]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [12]
          DefinitelyNotAFae
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Edit: the deleted post advocated for distributing menstrual cups and a how to instructions to kids in school rather than focusing on tampons and pads as they'd be more sustainable. Sometimes you...

          Edit: the deleted post advocated for distributing menstrual cups and a how to instructions to kids in school rather than focusing on tampons and pads as they'd be more sustainable.

          Sometimes you still need pads which, I know they always focus on tampons because tampons have this weird sexual deviance aspect to them, are also provided in these laws.

          Plus cups can be really difficult for younger teens/kids, and sometimes they still don't fit right and it's easy not to clean them well, especially in public bathrooms when you're young and embarrassed. I'd want a lot more school comfort teaching about those things before I tried to make cups the primary menstrual product for young folks.

          But I'd love for them to be easily available and taught about. Same with period underwear which is much more popular than it was when I was young!

          11 votes
          1. [11]
            tanglisha
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I think it's easy to forget there's a learning curve to these things. I'd never used a tampon in my life the first time I tried a cup. The damn thing overflowed at work several times while I...

            Plus cups can be really difficult for younger teens/kids, and sometimes they still don't fit right

            I think it's easy to forget there's a learning curve to these things. I'd never used a tampon in my life the first time I tried a cup. The damn thing overflowed at work several times while I worked on getting the timing and fitting right - I'm very glad I was wearing backup protection. I've also heard that some folks who menstruate can feel incredibly uncomfortable with the general idea of insertion, though some like them because the whole mess is contained.

            Much as I like them in general, sometimes they feel like too much work, cloth pads and period underwear are a lot less complicated.

            8 votes
            1. [10]
              CannibalisticApple
              Link Parent
              I'll chime in as one of the people who's highly uncomfortable with the idea of insertion. I may have to use a tampon for the first time in over a decade this week to go swimming, and I am not...

              I'll chime in as one of the people who's highly uncomfortable with the idea of insertion. I may have to use a tampon for the first time in over a decade this week to go swimming, and I am not looking forward to it. I swear I could feel it the entire time the last (and only) time I used one, which is apparently abnormal. Just inserting the dang thing was an ordeal, I wasted like three due to a mix of inexperience and nervousness. I sometimes joke that's one of the reasons I know I'm sex-repulsed ace.

              And from that viewpoint, cups are even more intimidating to me. For younger kids and teens who are also dealing with the awkwardness and anxiety that comes with puberty? I think they'll be even scarier. If you're getting menstrual supplies from the school, chances are it's an emergency and not really the time to psych yourself up to try inserting a cup for the first time.

              8 votes
              1. tanglisha
                Link Parent
                I'm actually the same way with tampons, I hate them. I did feel my cup the same way the first few times, but eventually got used to it. My theory is that most people are that way, but it happened...

                I'm actually the same way with tampons, I hate them. I did feel my cup the same way the first few times, but eventually got used to it. My theory is that most people are that way, but it happened so long ago that they've forgotten.

                I wish I had another suggestion for you; I got my very first cup for swimming. Of the two I prefer the cup because it isn't scratchy and doesn't absorb water or change shape. I wish you the best, hopefully you can have fun, anyway.

                3 votes
              2. [2]
                RoyalHenOil
                Link Parent
                I never really got used to tampons with applicators; they somehow always get me right in the cervix. I find tampons easier to use if I remove the tampon from the applicator, add some lube to it,...

                I never really got used to tampons with applicators; they somehow always get me right in the cervix. I find tampons easier to use if I remove the tampon from the applicator, add some lube to it, and then very slowly and gently push it in with a finger. Maybe that technique will help you, too?

                Oddly enough, I took to menstrual cups right away. They are annoying to put in and pull out, but they don't hurt me like tampons do.

                Pads are alright, but I do find that my labias rub against them and get pretty sore if I am at all physically active. They are great for just sitting around the house, though.

                2 votes
                1. tanglisha
                  Link Parent
                  Have you tried cloth pads or period underwear? I've never looked back once I tried them. They're 1000% more comfortable than the disposable ones.

                  Have you tried cloth pads or period underwear? I've never looked back once I tried them. They're 1000% more comfortable than the disposable ones.

                  2 votes
              3. [6]
                chocobean
                Link Parent
                Re: products the pearly smooth plastic shell ones are the best. They're very small, they are very smooth, and the plastic coating will also accomodate lubricant if necessary. Unlike those awful...

                Re: products

                the pearly smooth plastic shell ones are the best. They're very small, they are very smooth, and the plastic coating will also accomodate lubricant if necessary. Unlike those awful bog standard wads of cotton that rub the whole way in

                For others reading who don't know, it's the like the difference between swallowing a pill that's gel coated vs swallowing a cotton ball.

                1 vote
                1. [4]
                  DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  In contrast I now find the OB applicator-less ones the easiest to use. But when I was young, absolutely no, give me those "pearls" or whatever

                  In contrast I now find the OB applicator-less ones the easiest to use.

                  But when I was young, absolutely no, give me those "pearls" or whatever

                  3 votes
                  1. [2]
                    Sapholia
                    Link Parent
                    I find OB easier to use as well. Applicators feel weird and it's hard to position them correctly, and once it's in you can't adjust it because the tampon it inserts is so floppy. This is probably...

                    I find OB easier to use as well. Applicators feel weird and it's hard to position them correctly, and once it's in you can't adjust it because the tampon it inserts is so floppy. This is probably just down to the fact that I have a lot more experience with OB though, because I find them the most leakproof.

                    3 votes
                    1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                      Link Parent
                      Agreed that they're the most leakproof. I think it's also just age and comfort/experience with getting all up in there LOL

                      Agreed that they're the most leakproof. I think it's also just age and comfort/experience with getting all up in there LOL

                      3 votes
                  2. chocobean
                    Link Parent
                    Huh, good to know if for some reason I can't use an IUD anymore. But yes for younger folks or if there's sensitivity issues, go for the fanciest and most expensive ones you can afford. I wish I...

                    Huh, good to know if for some reason I can't use an IUD anymore.

                    But yes for younger folks or if there's sensitivity issues, go for the fanciest and most expensive ones you can afford. I wish I had been given this advice and the accompanying budget once upon a time

                    2 votes
                2. sparksbet
                  Link Parent
                  I'm not a tampon user, so I can't speak with any direct experience, but I do know that availability of tampons with applicators varies a lot regionally. I've heard other Americans here in Germany...

                  I'm not a tampon user, so I can't speak with any direct experience, but I do know that availability of tampons with applicators varies a lot regionally. I've heard other Americans here in Germany struggle to find them, since tampons without applicators are the "standard" here, whereas my understanding is that in the US tampons with applicators are more popular.

                  3 votes
        2. [8]
          Johz
          Link Parent
          Not everyone can use cups though (or for that matter tampons). My impression is that for public spaces, pads are the most sensible option as a kind of lowest common denominator - they're not too...

          Not everyone can use cups though (or for that matter tampons). My impression is that for public spaces, pads are the most sensible option as a kind of lowest common denominator - they're not too complicated to use, and pretty much everyone can use them. Tampons have the additional benefit of being small so that you can put a whole box of them out and have them last for a while.

          I'm not opposed to schools handing out cups as an encouragement to take a more ecologically sound route, but it doesn't really solve the same problem that tampons and pads in bathrooms solve, which is providing an emergency option for people who forget or are caught out, or generally don't have the stuff they need.

          8 votes
          1. [3]
            RoyalHenOil
            Link Parent
            Cups are probably too expensive to be handing out freely to all the students anyway. Most of them would just be thrown away or end up lost. But it would be great to offer cups to students who are...

            Cups are probably too expensive to be handing out freely to all the students anyway. Most of them would just be thrown away or end up lost.

            But it would be great to offer cups to students who are interested. A big benefit of cups is that low-income students can still use them away from school (for example, during breaks) if they don't have menstrual supplies at home.

            Washable/reusable menstrual pads might be a better option than cups. These offer the same ecological and economic benefits as cups, but they are cheaper and more students would be able to use them.

            7 votes
            1. [2]
              chocobean
              Link Parent
              Yeah, it'd be great if they were available from nurse stations or the school counsellors. Some culture would frown upon insertion type products, and certain teen would not be able to obtain one....

              Yeah, it'd be great if they were available from nurse stations or the school counsellors. Some culture would frown upon insertion type products, and certain teen would not be able to obtain one. They're pricy but they can be a solution off campus like you said.

              2 votes
              1. RoyalHenOil
                Link Parent
                Even where it is culturally acceptable, it is also fairly common for virgins to be unable to use insertion products comfortably or possibly even at all depending on their anatomy. That was...

                Even where it is culturally acceptable, it is also fairly common for virgins to be unable to use insertion products comfortably or possibly even at all depending on their anatomy. That was certainly the case for me (due to a hymen disorder that I didn't get fixed until I was out of high school).

                4 votes
          2. [4]
            Promonk
            Link Parent
            Speaking as a cis man, and without going into unpleasant specifics, I have on more than one occasion found menstrual pads useful for my own hygiene. I don't mean to suggest this should be a...

            Speaking as a cis man, and without going into unpleasant specifics, I have on more than one occasion found menstrual pads useful for my own hygiene.

            I don't mean to suggest this should be a significant consideration, but if we're aiming for–excuse the phrase–broad applicability, pads have this dude's endorsement.

            4 votes
            1. sparksbet
              Link Parent
              All this comment reminds me of is the scene in She's the Man in which the main character convinces her roommates that she has tampons because they're really good for nosebleeds. ...which, like, to...

              All this comment reminds me of is the scene in She's the Man in which the main character convinces her roommates that she has tampons because they're really good for nosebleeds.

              ...which, like, to be fair, they probably are.

              3 votes
            2. [2]
              chocobean
              Link Parent
              A buddy fell and was bleeding, and a pad was used as a sort of giant bandaid on the way to the hospital. Very practical

              A buddy fell and was bleeding, and a pad was used as a sort of giant bandaid on the way to the hospital. Very practical

              2 votes
              1. Promonk
                Link Parent
                From a marketing standpoint, I see why they went with "panty liner" and "sanitary napkin" instead of "inconvenient bodily effluvia soaker-upper."

                From a marketing standpoint, I see why they went with "panty liner" and "sanitary napkin" instead of "inconvenient bodily effluvia soaker-upper."

                4 votes
        3. [3]
          GenuinelyCrooked
          Link Parent
          It took me years and multiple different companies before I finally found a menstrual disc that fit comfortably and worked for me. I can feel the suction from most cups on my cervix and it really...

          It took me years and multiple different companies before I finally found a menstrual disc that fit comfortably and worked for me. I can feel the suction from most cups on my cervix and it really hurts. If my only option was to use a one-size-fits-all cup or stay home, I would have stayed home. I don't know how that squares with handing them out en mass, although I agree with your general goals.

          5 votes
          1. [2]
            RoyalHenOil
            Link Parent
            Which product did you end up with?

            Which product did you end up with?

            2 votes
            1. GenuinelyCrooked
              Link Parent
              The saalt disc. I'd given up on discs because I'd previously tried the nixit and flex discs, and they were much wider and they hurt when I would bend or move. The saalt is much smaller and I've...

              The saalt disc. I'd given up on discs because I'd previously tried the nixit and flex discs, and they were much wider and they hurt when I would bend or move. The saalt is much smaller and I've used it for two cycles now and I'm really liking it.

              2 votes
        4. sparksbet
          Link Parent
          Forcing students to use a particular period product that requires insertion is absurd. I'd be pissed if a school only offered tampons and not also pads for this reason, but only offering reusable...

          Forcing students to use a particular period product that requires insertion is absurd. I'd be pissed if a school only offered tampons and not also pads for this reason, but only offering reusable menstrual cups is even worse. Not everyone does well with menstrual cups, and many menstrual cup users need a thin pad or pantiliner in addition to catch any drips anyway.

          I use reusable cloth pads myself and think they're far superior to disposable pads (and thus, for me, superior to the other options), but obviously that would be an incredibly impractical thing for schools to supply to students. This is a context in which disposable pads are by far the most equitable option.

          4 votes
    3. [3]
      chocobean
      Link Parent
      I know you're kidding but to be honest for a second. I much prefer blood to discharge. Heck, uterine lining would be my preference over discharge. Discharge sounds like something abnormal and...

      I know you're kidding but to be honest for a second.

      I much prefer blood to discharge. Heck, uterine lining would be my preference over discharge. Discharge sounds like something abnormal and potentially kind of gross or dirty, like an infection is happening or something.

      From Wikipedia

      About half of menstrual fluid is blood. This blood contains sodium, calcium, phosphate, iron, and chloride, the extent of which depends on the woman. As well as blood, the fluid consists of cervical mucus, vaginal secretions, and endometrial tissue. Vaginal fluids in menses mainly contribute water, common electrolytes, organ moieties, and at least 14 proteins, including glycoproteins.[15]

      Call it Uterine Lining Liner. Endometrial Tissue Tissue. "Electrolytes Collectors - it's got what plants crave".

      Or talk about the utility rather than specifically what it's for: absorbant gel pads. Whether it's period or leaky butt or an injury, this handy product has got your backside. We call it kitty litter instead of cat pee rock, afterall. Puppy pads are already well understood without calling it dog urethral discharge collection devices.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        GenuinelyCrooked
        Link Parent
        On the one hand, it's normal to have some sort of vaginal discharge every day, even when not menstruating, and that experience should be normalized and not made to feel dirty or gross at all. On...

        On the one hand, it's normal to have some sort of vaginal discharge every day, even when not menstruating, and that experience should be normalized and not made to feel dirty or gross at all. On the other hand, the word discharge is gross and does no service to this normal and healthy phenomenon.

        It's tough to talk about our bodies!

        3 votes
        1. chocobean
          Link Parent
          Absolutely agree "discharge" should be a neutral and normal word that just somehow isn't. Like talking about human moisture should be normal and neutral but it just feels icky :) Secretion or...

          Absolutely agree "discharge" should be a neutral and normal word that just somehow isn't. Like talking about human moisture should be normal and neutral but it just feels icky :)

          Secretion or mucus also normal , but don't sound any nicer.

          I think maybe in general we all want to pretend we're a pure consciousness inside a neutral, clean, dry, tidy and freshly powered scented shell. Instead of *gestures

          I'll reiterate my support for absorbant gel pad

          3 votes
    4. [4]
      sparksbet
      Link Parent
      I'm all for this too (heck, I'd be all for cis men doing this too), but it is worth noting that period products in men's bathrooms are typically intended for trans boys and men. The anti-trans...

      For the record, I hope trans girls and ladies do keep a few tampons or pads on their person when they go out and about, as one never knows when a situation might arise when someone in the vicinity needs it.

      I'm all for this too (heck, I'd be all for cis men doing this too), but it is worth noting that period products in men's bathrooms are typically intended for trans boys and men. The anti-trans fearmongering tends to target trans women and girls, because transmisogyny is a powerful force in our world, but if policies like these get pulled back because of backlash to putting period products in men's bathrooms, trans men and boys will be the ones most directly affected.

      4 votes
      1. [3]
        chocobean
        Link Parent
        Maybe that's what they meant, that if people carried some, a cis/trans girl/woman is the someone in the vicinity who needs one?

        Maybe that's what they meant, that if people carried some, a cis/trans girl/woman is the someone in the vicinity who needs one?

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          sparksbet
          Link Parent
          Trans girls/women generally do not need period products, though. My understanding was that they were recommending that even those who don't need period products carry them to help supply those in...

          Trans girls/women generally do not need period products, though. My understanding was that they were recommending that even those who don't need period products carry them to help supply those in the vicinity who do need them, and I just wanted to bring to the forefront that this is one of the issues that does disproportionately impact trans men/boys, even if trans girls/women are what the right-wing weirdos are fearmongering about.

          5 votes
          1. [2]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. sparksbet
              Link Parent
              I was generally agreeing with what you said and merely bringing up an additional factor that is relevant to what you mentioned, including the MTG quote in question -- even if she's thinking of...

              I was generally agreeing with what you said and merely bringing up an additional factor that is relevant to what you mentioned, including the MTG quote in question -- even if she's thinking of trans women/girls when she says "men" here, the trans people actually using period products in men's restrooms are trans men/boys. Especially given that cis people often mistakenly mix up the terminology around trans people and misunderstand who's affected in what ways in these situations -- even on Tildes, there are plenty of people who might not be clear on these things.

              Leaving a separate top-level comment would not have done what I intended to do with my comment, which was merely to add some additional information and context to what you brought up in your comment. If you think the level of hostility in this response is merited by "how I went about it" when what I did was leave a completely cordial comment agreeing with you and adding additional perspective I thought was relevant, I don't know what to say to you. I thought we were coming from roughly the same perspective here before you started insisting that I'm what's wrong with the left for replying to your comment with my thoughts.

              2 votes
  4. [3]
    MechanicalMagpie
    Link
    i wish i could say i was surprised but like. I work in higher ed in a very blue area of a purple state. Someone here had the brilliant idea that, in the name of equity, period products would be...

    i wish i could say i was surprised but like. I work in higher ed in a very blue area of a purple state. Someone here had the brilliant idea that, in the name of equity, period products would be available only in the gender neutral bathrooms. Of which there are three, on the entire campus.

    Cant have those filthy things in the Men's rooms for Men where Men go, amirite? /s

    So I'm not at all surprised that some absolute walnuts jumped on "hey maybe lets make period products more widely accessible for everyone, keeping in mind that menstruation can start in elementary school for some people" and turned it into "they're trying to trans the childrens' gender and attack women and girls with *checks notes* tampons!!!!"

    7 votes
    1. Tmbreen
      Link Parent
      Yeah that's ridiculous. These products are a necessity for some and that means that they should be available everywhere. It's just like wheelchair accessible doors in my (cis male) opinion. To not...

      Yeah that's ridiculous. These products are a necessity for some and that means that they should be available everywhere. It's just like wheelchair accessible doors in my (cis male) opinion. To not have them be available everywhere excludes and discriminates against those who need them when they need them. Who cares about a tampon dispenser in a boys restroom? Why is this really an issue.

      7 votes
    2. RoyalHenOil
      Link Parent
      Oh man, this reminds me of my university's biology building, where I spent a lot of my time (I worked in a lab there). It was built during the early Cold War when hardly any biology students were...

      Oh man, this reminds me of my university's biology building, where I spent a lot of my time (I worked in a lab there). It was built during the early Cold War when hardly any biology students were female, so there was originally only one women's restroom: on the ground floor where the receptionists worked.

      On the floor where I worked, the smallest lab on the floor had been converted into a women's restroom at some stage in the building's history. The consequence of this was that the women's restroom was enormous and ended up doubling as a storeroom and a kind of common room for all the labs on the floor.

      Most importantly, it's where the centrifuge lived — which meant that any time a man needed to use it (which was typically several times a day), he either had to make sure the restroom was clear before collecting his samples or send a woman in to collect them for him. This situation was a source of endless amusement for everyone.

      That was just one of the weird, janky things about working in that building. It had accrued a lot of — let's say character — over the decades.

      5 votes