52 votes

My doctor emailed me back - Abigail Thorn

42 comments

  1. archevel
    Link
    This is what I read as the central message of the essay. Transitioning only affect the individual undergoing the treatment to any relevant extent. I'm not aware of it causing other detrimental...

    If someone wants to transition, that’s their business

    This is what I read as the central message of the essay. Transitioning only affect the individual undergoing the treatment to any relevant extent. I'm not aware of it causing other detrimental issues which could merit some gatekeeping (e.g. antibiotic resistance or addiction). So the only consideration that is merited is that of how much resources should be allocated to this over some other need. That's an issue with all treatments and if transitioning wasn't being gatekept I'd guess the cost would end up being miniscule compared to other medical interventions.

    30 votes
  2. [12]
    em-dash
    (edited )
    Link
    I've recently taken up the even more radical, arguably-out-of-the-overton-window view that this isn't actually a trans issue. I desperately want a world in which all healthcare is informed...

    I've recently taken up the even more radical, arguably-out-of-the-overton-window view that this isn't actually a trans issue. I desperately want a world in which all healthcare is informed consent.

    I want to be able to sign a paper that says "I am capable of reading and evaluating medical literature on my own, give me a limited form of medical license that allows me to do anything a GP can do but only for myself, and I'll call a real doctor for a second opinion if I feel like I need to".

    (I recently tried to pitch this to my very right-wing congress representative upon realizing how libertarian it sounded, but got back a short "that's a state issue and not a federal one" form letter email. I have not tried any of the state government people yet because I have no executive function. Incidentally, one of the things I would like to be able to prescribe myself is ADHD medication.)

    25 votes
    1. [3]
      teaearlgraycold
      Link Parent
      I think this would end up with "prescribe yourself opioids" ads and further addiction issues. A properly healthy and educated population could handle your approach to healthcare. But we're not...

      I think this would end up with "prescribe yourself opioids" ads and further addiction issues. A properly healthy and educated population could handle your approach to healthcare. But we're not there yet.

      37 votes
      1. [2]
        Gaywallet
        Link Parent
        No offense but how is this any different than the countless companies which exist which advertise that they will set you up with a physician to get you a prescription for testosterone, ADHD meds,...

        No offense but how is this any different than the countless companies which exist which advertise that they will set you up with a physician to get you a prescription for testosterone, ADHD meds, or ketamine to solve your <insert problem here>? Like I get what you're saying and I think we should have some level of safeguards, but I think the gut reaction you and others are having here is perhaps not recognizing the world we already exist in.

        Have you ever talked to someone who's reasonably rich? Most of them have access to whatever drugs they want, because they can easily find physicians who will simply prescribe them the things they want. Or they just get it on the black market - there's a reason you always hear about rich people doing cocaine and all other drugs. There's a reason when you hear about someone rich ODing in their home there's about six chemicals involved.

        But even if we ignore the rich for a minute, how many friends have you talked to about their cocktail of things they do? I would reckon the majority of people in the world have done drugs of some sort, recreationally, even if its just alcohol. Probably the majority have done at least one other drug, such as marijuana. We've certainly all picked up OTC meds that we weren't sure were gonna work, or tried weird snake oil on behalf of a family member or friend recommending it.

        If we take a step back and assess what's being proposed here by @em-dash, they're saying they should have slightly more autonomy over this. Opioids are actually a perfect example of something a generic GP can't actually prescribe easily anymore. Sometimes this is due to the actual credentialing and possibly state law, but some of it has to do with insurance companies themselves restricting prescriptions without medical evaluation (internal review). In addition, certain drugs have special classes which can't be prescribed by any credentialed MD (may need review by a psychiatrist or a pharmacist or other specialist). What they're suggesting is actually more or less what every rich and medically proficient person already has access to through their connections and knowledge and resources, but making it explicit instead of implicit. Honestly I think it's a great idea, at least as a thought process, to get us to think a bit deeper about the current state of affairs and the ways in which it isn't working. As others have mentioned, in some countries it already works a lot closer to this model than it does in the US, which should provide us comparisons and some more food for thought.

        16 votes
        1. cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          If by "the world" you mean "the US", then sure. But AFAIK advertising like that is banned in most places outside the US. I've certainly never seen anything like you describe being advertised here...

          If by "the world" you mean "the US", then sure. But AFAIK advertising like that is banned in most places outside the US. I've certainly never seen anything like you describe being advertised here in Canada. And worth noting is that this article is about the UK, where I also lived and never saw any advertising like you describe either. But when I lived in the US, on the other hand, it felt like damn near every other advert was for prescription drugs, insurance companies, hospital networks, and such though, so I don't doubt what you describe is also advertised about there. But I'm pretty sure all that is a uniquely American phenomena.

          28 votes
    2. [6]
      Soggy
      Link Parent
      "My afternoon watching Healthblogger Tiktok is as valid as 8+ years of medical school, I should have carte blanche to prescribe medicine and treatments to myself (and my children) as I see fit" is...

      "My afternoon watching Healthblogger Tiktok is as valid as 8+ years of medical school, I should have carte blanche to prescribe medicine and treatments to myself (and my children) as I see fit" is a strong stance to defend for sure. My own stance is more "humans have proven completely incapable of thinking further into the future than next payday and they still think maybe vaccines cause autism" but I already knew my leanings were auth-left.

      30 votes
      1. [2]
        em-dash
        Link Parent
        One of my other weird political opinions is that parents should have significantly less authority over their children's healthcare. I should probably explicitly add "only for myself and not my...

        and my children

        One of my other weird political opinions is that parents should have significantly less authority over their children's healthcare. I should probably explicitly add "only for myself and not my dependents" when I explain this to people, because yes, people will absolutely read "and my children" into it.

        21 votes
        1. Soggy
          Link Parent
          That one I don't think is weird at all. My biggest remaining concern is misallocation of limited resources or societally dangerous abuse. We already see it with Ozempic being unavailable for...

          That one I don't think is weird at all. My biggest remaining concern is misallocation of limited resources or societally dangerous abuse. We already see it with Ozempic being unavailable for diabetic patients, rampant misuse of antibiotics, long waits for specialists, and a broad acceptance of unproven (or worse, definitively debunked) alternative medicine as equally legitimate treatment.

          In shory, I think it would destroy any trust or sense of legitimacy in qualified doctors and the scientific method. Because people are morons.

          9 votes
      2. [3]
        mordae
        Link Parent
        What about "to precribe these classes of drugs, you have to have this kind of training" and then open courses? Because, honestly, med school from 40y ago where some don't really follow up on...

        What about "to precribe these classes of drugs, you have to have this kind of training" and then open courses?

        Because, honestly, med school from 40y ago where some don't really follow up on current developments isn't worth that much in my humble opinion.

        And we are talking about prescription drugs. There are butchers who literally rather cut you open instead of exercising with you and teaching you how to move property because they were not taught to do that couple decades back.

        11 votes
        1. [2]
          Minori
          Link Parent
          This is part of why continuing education and recertification is a thing. Their 40 years of practical experience with patients should count for something too.

          Because, honestly, med school from 40y ago where some don't really follow up on current developments isn't worth that much in my humble opinion.

          This is part of why continuing education and recertification is a thing. Their 40 years of practical experience with patients should count for something too.

          17 votes
          1. Gaywallet
            Link Parent
            While you're not wrong, many physicians become dead set in their ways and completely inflexible to new information. They attend continuing education classes the same way folks who get a speeding...

            While you're not wrong, many physicians become dead set in their ways and completely inflexible to new information. They attend continuing education classes the same way folks who get a speeding ticket attend traffic school to remove points from their record and keep their insurance rates from skyrocketing - it's entirely for show and they simply aren't paying attention. I say this as someone who works in medicine, who's spent countless hours with doctors, physicians, and other credentialed individuals. The reality is that humans are gonna human and this applies to the medical field as well, and many clinicians are not interested in updating their thoughts because what they are doing works for enough people that it doesn't matter if there's a better (or even alternate) way to do things out there.

            9 votes
    3. TaylorSwiftsPickles
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I mean, that's not too dissimilar of how the Greek pharmaceutical system works. As long as the prescription medicine isn't highly addictive or (due to regulations) isn't antibiotics, you can...

      I mean, that's not too dissimilar of how the Greek pharmaceutical system works. As long as the prescription medicine isn't highly addictive or (due to regulations) isn't antibiotics, you can pretty much go to any pharmacy and purchase it. So things like prescription NSAIDs, non-opioid prescription painkillers, muscle relaxants, hormones, gastrointestinal drugs, xanax, and other medications, you can pretty much just walk into a pharmacy and buy them for yourself without a pharmacist typically batting an eye. There is always the chance that they'll ask you what you need it for (to make sure) and why, but overall almost all pharmacists pretty much freely sell prescription medicine without requiring prescriptions.

      Granted, it's not a perfect system (e.g. xanax seems to be quite overused) but it saves a lot of money in the long-term, considering that, to go to a private doctor rather than a public doctor (as the Greek public healthcare system is underfunded since the economic crisis), you'll pay a lot more than you saved by getting a discount from your prescription.

      15 votes
    4. Chiasmic
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      While a nice idea, I think practically there would be issues. It would be susceptible to abuse/manipulation as others try to push their tangled pseudoscience cure, but now with actually harmful...

      While a nice idea, I think practically there would be issues. It would be susceptible to abuse/manipulation as others try to push their tangled pseudoscience cure, but now with actually harmful drugs. I’m not sure I like the sound of TikTok influencing saying how much more healthy they feel on high dose amiodarone or levothyroxine.

      I would also not like anyone in a position of responsibility/driving heavy vehicles to be messing too much with their physiology.

      Then there is the whole opioids/addictive substances and even antibiotic resistance to consider.
      Overall, drugs are regulated because they are harmful, and I would think a better option would be to allow more maverick doctors to be the tandem skydiver to maverick patients to make sure everyone remains within the outer bounds of what is safe.

      14 votes
  3. [20]
    Minori
    (edited )
    Link
    As always when this topic comes up, I go back to Contrapoint's video on Transtrenders. On the whole, I wish this stuff mattered less, but I would like to have more good medical studies supporting...

    As always when this topic comes up, I go back to Contrapoint's video on Transtrenders. On the whole, I wish this stuff mattered less, but I would like to have more good medical studies supporting the efficacy of current treatments (or else pushing us to find new, better treatments).

    Fundamentally, I just don't have an issue with "pathologization" as Abigail describes it. I do view being transgender as a medical condition which requires treatment, and I am at some level uncomfortable with people that seemingly make light of a medical condition. Though I'm supportive of the informed consent model because it was the way my wife first sought care.

    Edit: After talking with my wife, she brought up some points about conditions doctors should be checking for even under informed consent. Things like a patient having a history of bipolar mania is definitely relevant, and it's usually worthwhile to test whether the patient could be intersex since that can drastically affect hormones (especially around puberty). While some people will see that as gatekeeping, I think it's okay to wait a couple days to run through a checklist. If there was a sense of trust that doctors fully supported their patients, this would probably be more acceptable, but that sense of trust has been broken in the UK.

    17 votes
    1. [10]
      sparksbet
      Link Parent
      I don't think that literally any place that doesn't have an informed consent model requires you to wait "only a few days to run through a checklist," though. Not even close. Even here in Germany,...

      While some people will see that as gatekeeping, I think it's okay to wait a couple days to run through a checklist.

      I don't think that literally any place that doesn't have an informed consent model requires you to wait "only a few days to run through a checklist," though. Not even close. Even here in Germany, which is FAR better than the UK when it comes to access to trans healthcare, it's an unacceptably difficult task to even access the people who do the gatekeeping prior to getting trans healthcare.

      22 votes
      1. [9]
        Minori
        Link Parent
        Some of the youth clinics in the US have mandatory meetings with specialists which run through checklists before prescribing hormones. For scheduling reasons, the psychologist visit is usually a...

        Some of the youth clinics in the US have mandatory meetings with specialists which run through checklists before prescribing hormones. For scheduling reasons, the psychologist visit is usually a couple days before the endocrinologist visit.

        My point was there's a happy middle ground between DIY and a year of gatekeeping like many European countries. Especially for adults, the decision to transition only carries risks for the person transitioning, so they should be allowed to make their own healthcare decisions under an informed consent model. Trans healthcare is one place where the US healthcare system is the best in the world, as far as I know.

        9 votes
        1. [8]
          sparksbet
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          No one here is championing DIY as the best way forward for everyone though -- this article is promoting informed consent as the ideal model. The existence of informed consent clinics is literally...

          No one here is championing DIY as the best way forward for everyone though -- this article is promoting informed consent as the ideal model. The existence of informed consent clinics is literally the only thing that makes trans healthcare so much better in the US than in Europe. DIY is something trans people most often resort to because they don't have access to informed consent clinics (although in the case of the US sometimes the issue is money). When you live somewhere where DIY and extreme medical gatekeeping (and fwiw, a year is an extreme underestimate of the waiting time for many European countries, including the UK) are your only two options, it's not exactly a shock that more people go for DIY.

          7 votes
          1. [7]
            Minori
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I totally get why people DIY. I'm not judging people for it; I've purchased grey market medication with crypto before. The systems are what they are, and people are making the best choices for...

            I totally get why people DIY. I'm not judging people for it; I've purchased grey market medication with crypto before. The systems are what they are, and people are making the best choices for themselves that they can.

            The existence of informed consent clinics is literally the only thing that makes trans healthcare so much better in the US than in Europe.

            I disagree. In most Democratic states, insurance coverage for trans people is some of the best in the world. For example, in Washington state it's easy to get insurance to fully cover hundreds of hours of electrolysis, facial surgeries, hair transplants, SRS, and all the mental healthcare you want or need. Trans people in the US are also spoiled for choice when it comes to surgeons and can go anywhere in the continental US to get procedures they want. Of course it's different for poor people on state health insurance, but those will still cover out-of-state providers if no good in-state options exist (and there are plenty in Washington, California, and New York). In comparison, Canadians are stuck with whoever is available in their province, and the only fantastic transgender plastic surgery center in Europe is an extremely expensive one in Spain afaik.

            6 votes
            1. [6]
              sparksbet
              Link Parent
              I think your view of how accessible trans healthcare is to people in the US (at least on a financial level) is very skewed by using the people with the best access as your baseline. It is not the...

              I think your view of how accessible trans healthcare is to people in the US (at least on a financial level) is very skewed by using the people with the best access as your baseline. It is not the norm for trans people to get gender-affirming surgeries covered by insurance in most of the US. I'm glad if Washington's state insurance is really that inclusive and covers so many things! But that does nothing for trans people living in Ohio. I agree that access to care is abysmally bad compared to where it needs to be throughout Europe, but medical gatekeeping and lack of trans-affirming practitioners are the two principle issues here -- and lacking any informed consent model is an absolutely massive part of both problems.

              7 votes
              1. [5]
                Minori
                Link Parent
                You'd be surprised then because SRS and HRT is universally covered by ACA private insurance in the US. I'm speaking from personal experience having lived in an extremely red state and still...

                It is not the norm for trans people to get gender-affirming surgeries covered by insurance in most of the US.

                You'd be surprised then because SRS and HRT is universally covered by ACA private insurance in the US. I'm speaking from personal experience having lived in an extremely red state and still getting procedures covered. While it's more difficult to get electrolysis covered in some states, coverage is way better than you think. The only exception now is if you're under 18 in some states which I'm not happy about.

                There are exceptions with some private employer insurance, but trans people can always sign up for marketplace plans for a year to get SRS covered if they want. From talking to friends in red states, it's even easier to get top surgery pre-authorized as medically necessary.

                (Yes I agree Europe needs informed consent clinics to improve healthcare outcomes for trans people)

                3 votes
                1. [4]
                  sparksbet
                  (edited )
                  Link Parent
                  I just know that the several friends of mine who got top surgery back in the US had to save up and pay for it themselves. It might've been bad luck with what insurance they were on, or it might be...

                  I just know that the several friends of mine who got top surgery back in the US had to save up and pay for it themselves. It might've been bad luck with what insurance they were on, or it might be that the changes are more recent than when they got surgery. These guys are my age though, so it's not that long ago. Everyone I know who I mentioned my top surgery in Germany to, both cis and trans, has seemed impressed and surprised I got it completely covered by insurance (including a week-long hospital stay afterwards in my case).

                  I think ACA private insurance might also sometimes be better than some cheap private insurance plans? I'm no expert there, but I was on my parents' very shitty health insurance until I left the country in 2018, and theirs didn't cover any prescription drugs at all. I'm not sure exactly how coverage works for this sort of thing, so I can't point to anything super concrete and say you're wrong. But I know too many trans people back in the states who still aren't able to easily afford this stuff, so I simply can't believe it's as frictionless as you describe it.

                  1. [3]
                    Minori
                    Link Parent
                    A lot of Americans don't know how to use their health insurance, but that doesn't mean their coverage is bad. Most Americans have access to ACA marketplace plans which cover trans related...

                    A lot of Americans don't know how to use their health insurance, but that doesn't mean their coverage is bad. Most Americans have access to ACA marketplace plans which cover trans related healthcare (seniors and children are special cases).

                    I'm really puzzled by how your family could have had insurance that didn't cover medically necessary prescriptions in 2018 since the ACA was passed in 2010. My best guess is that you were on a high deductible plan (the cheapest monthly premiums) which don't cover anything except preventative care until the deductible is hit.

                    1. [2]
                      sparksbet
                      Link Parent
                      Our insurance was from some weird Christian pseudo-insurance thing that was more or less designed to cover as little as possible while technically meeting the requirements to be insured, afaik. I...

                      Our insurance was from some weird Christian pseudo-insurance thing that was more or less designed to cover as little as possible while technically meeting the requirements to be insured, afaik. I never dug into it deeper than that, as I wasn't really independent from my parents while I was on it, so I don't know if it was structured in some specific way to achieve that effect. I did have to pay for all my prescriptions out of pocket during college, so I can at least verify that it functioned that way. Weirdly, it's what saved my ass from getting put on lithium for a bipolar misdiagnosis, but that's a whole nother story.

                      2 votes
                      1. Minori
                        Link Parent
                        Ohhhhhhh, I know exactly what you're talking about. Those are scummy, and I absolutely hate that they exist. They're basically co-op "insurance" pools which can replace insurance coverage for...

                        Ohhhhhhh, I know exactly what you're talking about. Those are scummy, and I absolutely hate that they exist. They're basically co-op "insurance" pools which can replace insurance coverage for theocratic reasons. I hate them because they're not real insurance and won't cover essential healthcare as you're well aware of. I'm glad you're in a place now where you're able to get your medical needs met.

                        3 votes
    2. [9]
      smoontjes
      Link Parent
      I agree re: it being a medical condition (let me be clear I am no truscum though, and those that choose not to pursue medical treatment are not fakers or whatever the hell some gatekeepers say)....

      I agree re: it being a medical condition (let me be clear I am no truscum though, and those that choose not to pursue medical treatment are not fakers or whatever the hell some gatekeepers say). And informed consent is the way to go, however one in and out appointment does seem very quick. In my country though, it is a year-long process where psychologists go through all sorts of completely irrelevant things.. maybe that would be fine irt transgender teens or younger, but an adult? We are perfectly well aware of who we are.. I in no way needed 12 psych sessions to get approved. So ridiculous.

      9 votes
      1. [8]
        supergauntlet
        Link Parent
        This entire debate is totally nonsensical too. There's people elsewhere in the comments talking about how actually doctors should be allowed to deny you care for your own good as though this makes...

        This entire debate is totally nonsensical too. There's people elsewhere in the comments talking about how actually doctors should be allowed to deny you care for your own good as though this makes sense in the world we live in. IIRC you're Scandinavian and I personally know girls in Norway that have been gatekept with the most patently ridiculous nonsense that clearly only makes sense if you want to stop people from transitioning if they would not fit the mold of the Blanchardian HSTS True Transsexual.

        I think I agree with the poster that said all healthcare should be informed consent, with few caveats. If, hypothetically, someone were to use this to take HRT and get surgeries and then decide years down the line actually this was all wrong and they didn't think things through... Even discounting that this is genuinely hard to believe considering how long the wait times on changes are, if I am to take this hypothetical person at face value, I don't respect them. Choices and actions have consequences. Why should hundreds, maybe thousands of people die because a tiny minority of people have had their brains so thoroughly cooked that they can't reasonably consider the consequences of their actions? From a public health perspective informed consent is the only model that makes sense for healthcare.

        A large part of the debate that gets left unsaid is that society doesn't want you to transition. Society considers every single trans person a medical failure as of right now. Maybe there's a reality out there where transness is so accepted and normal that there really are a lot of cis people taking the wrong hormones and having a bad time. But the reality right now is that even getting to the point of asking your doctor is a step many trans people don't get to - further gatekeeping on top of that isn't to the benefit of the patient, it's for the benefit of a deeply transphobic society that would prefer there be one fewer visibly trans person in it.

        10 votes
        1. [7]
          smoontjes
          Link Parent
          Yes, exact same here in Denmark. I personally know someone who they denied treatment because she wanted to transition too much. They said it was a special interest to her. ❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓ There was...

          IIRC you're Scandinavian and I personally know girls in Norway that have been gatekept with the most patently ridiculous nonsense that clearly only makes sense if you want to stop people from transitioning if they would not fit the mold of the Blanchardian HSTS True Transsexual.

          Yes, exact same here in Denmark. I personally know someone who they denied treatment because she wanted to transition too much. They said it was a special interest to her.

          ❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓

          There was a one year "cooldown" period if a patient wants to apply for treatment again. She did and got through that time. Probably down to just having a different psychologist the second time which is also not okay.

          Even discounting that this is genuinely hard to believe considering how long the wait times on changes are, if I am to take this hypothetical person at face value, I don't respect them. Choices and actions have consequences.

          Someone was on a talk show here who regretted it after years. He detransitioned but had an orchi and got his breasts removed after a while. They of course didn't have, nor do they ever, have any actual trans people on the talk show nor on the news or anything.. that doesn't get views and clicks. Yay, fearmongering, o no it's so dangerous, nobody should be allowed to transition, trans people aren't real, they are confused, they are mentally ill :))

          Well, there have been surveys. Most people support us or just don't care. Maybe they think we aren't real but they aren't gonna do anything about it. So that's a lot better than there being actual homo- and transphobic policies like the UK and some US states now where voters truly care, where the fear mongering from the right has been incredibly effective to the point that even the left, at least in the UK, started being transphobic too. Labour completely dropped their agenda for trans policies in the election after all.. a losing issue.

          10 votes
          1. [5]
            DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            There's a narrative fomenting that autistic people aren't really trans, and they're only thinking they're trans because they're autistic. So the "special interest" would be the implication that...

            They said it was a special interest to her.

            ❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓

            There's a narrative fomenting that autistic people aren't really trans, and they're only thinking they're trans because they're autistic. So the "special interest" would be the implication that they can't possibly be trans, just autistic. Then the immediate follow up is essentially, "because you're autistic your opinion cannot be trusted on this." It's some real ableism/eugenics sort of stuff. But some of the US laws restricting gender affirming care for teens and adults included some bits about how an autism diagnosis would essentially be disqualifying. (I think one was explicit and several others were implicit - you have to "resolve" or address any mental health concerns prior to considering gender transition. I don't even know if those are currently on the books due to the back and forth court cases but yeah. )

            There are higher instances of trans identities among autistic folks (including non-binary genders and agender identities) so there's probably a connection between not feeling comfortable with current societal labels and expectations and well not feeling comfortable with gender labels and expectations. But I don't know the research, just anecdata

            8 votes
            1. [4]
              supergauntlet
              Link Parent
              this btw is why you should never get an autism diagnosis - other diagnoses like adhd can be genuinely helpful for example with getting stimulants or work accommodations. I have only heard of...

              this btw is why you should never get an autism diagnosis - other diagnoses like adhd can be genuinely helpful for example with getting stimulants or work accommodations. I have only heard of downsides for getting an autism diagnosis, unless you're trying to get disability.

              5 votes
              1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                Link Parent
                It is, for what it's worth, more complicated than any "never" or "always" sort of thing. But it is really important for professionals to know the positives and negatives. Diagnoses can be super...

                It is, for what it's worth, more complicated than any "never" or "always" sort of thing. But it is really important for professionals to know the positives and negatives. Diagnoses can be super validating, or they can feel limiting. For some folks another dx like ADHD would be just as limiting for job purposes and others whose lives are set in such a way that it's very unlikely a diagnosis could be harmful.

                I do have these convos with students who sometimes do have ADHD and think they may also be autistic or who have depression but think they may have ADHD. For my purposes with them we talk about how school accommodations can be covered by and coping skills can work for other diagnoses, but sometimes that validation is just as important. Getting disability is not at issue for the folks I work with so I can't speak to it specifically.

                5 votes
              2. [2]
                Tardigrade
                Link Parent
                In some places it can also be good for employment protection as a part of how you are and a reason they're less able to fire you for.

                In some places it can also be good for employment protection as a part of how you are and a reason they're less able to fire you for.

                2 votes
                1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  Their point was that similar or comorbid dx can be sufficient to get the same accommodations without also getting a label that has potentially worse discriminatory effects

                  Their point was that similar or comorbid dx can be sufficient to get the same accommodations without also getting a label that has potentially worse discriminatory effects

                  2 votes
          2. supergauntlet
            Link Parent
            Yes, one of the things that gives me hope is that most people actually do genuinely believe that the government getting involved in healthcare, esp. healthcare for children, is freak behavior. And...

            Yes, one of the things that gives me hope is that most people actually do genuinely believe that the government getting involved in healthcare, esp. healthcare for children, is freak behavior. And Labour has already killed children in the UK with their transphobia. That's just objective fact, the UK media is trying really hard to suppress it but Wes Streeting has blood on his hands. And as time goes on this will become more and more clear and opinion about these barbaric policies will turn more and more.

            The other thing that gives me hope are the children. When my binary friends tell kids that they're men or women, they get it immediately. Kids that are too young to lie gender them correctly without a second thought. We have already won the culture war. It is just a matter of outlasting the dinosaurs.

            5 votes
  4. DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    This was excellent, thank you for sharing!

    This was excellent, thank you for sharing!

    14 votes
  5. [9]
    Comment removed by site admin
    Link
    1. sparksbet
      Link Parent
      Please don't parrot right wing hyperbole that you clearly know nothing about in ~lgbt

      Some do have legitimate concerns, like those US parents. After all, it's potentially a mutilation one might eventually regret.

      Please don't parrot right wing hyperbole that you clearly know nothing about in ~lgbt

      30 votes
    2. [2]
      GenuinelyCrooked
      Link Parent
      If you remove the loaded word "mutilation" and replace it with "irreversible change to their bodies", then you could say the exact same thing about puberty. That's the whole reason that trans kids...

      Some do have legitimate concerns, like those US parents. After all, it's potentially a mutilation one might eventually regret.

      If you remove the loaded word "mutilation" and replace it with "irreversible change to their bodies", then you could say the exact same thing about puberty. That's the whole reason that trans kids and teens want treatment at that age - because going through the wrong puberty is irreversible and can be extremely damaging. Being able to transition young means their transition outcomes will likely be much closer to their goals.

      While it's extremely rare for people who have transitioned, including those who began the process young, to regret it, there is still the option of detransitioning. A lot of the options for someone who is detransitioning to return to presenting as their AGAB are the same as the options for someone transitioning after puberty. They're more limited than if the individual had gone through the "right" puberty in the first place, but they still exist. Making these options more easily available helps trans people and detransitioners alike. It not only makes trans people safer, it makes the consequences of thinking you might be trans and being wrong - which many people seem to think is far more likely than it actually is - a lot less severe.

      22 votes
      1. mordae
        Link Parent
        You don't have to explain this to me. I am firmly on board with the idea that one's body is their own and instead of policing people we should be educating them, but that's not European...

        You don't have to explain this to me. I am firmly on board with the idea that one's body is their own and instead of policing people we should be educating them, but that's not European mainstream. And it's getting worse. And apparently the situation is not that great in US either.

        1 vote
    3. [4]
      Minori
      Link Parent
      I'll assume you're a nonnative English speaker that means well based on your comments about Czechia. "Mutilation" is an extremely negative word when used to refer to Sexual Reassignment Surgery...

      I'll assume you're a nonnative English speaker that means well based on your comments about Czechia.

      "Mutilation" is an extremely negative word when used to refer to Sexual Reassignment Surgery (SRS) because it's frequently used by transphobes to criticize SRS as screwing up someone's genitals. It's a word which gets a very strong negative reaction and should be avoided when talking about SRS and trans people.

      Same goes for "cutting their penises off". While it can come across as a joke in some contexts, that phrasing is generally used by transphobes who know nothing about SRS. In reality, SRS preserves as much tissue as possible and mostly rearranges it as necessary.

      19 votes
      1. [3]
        mordae
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I did not want to come across as insensitive or even taunting, but I did want to point out what's still the norm for a lot of people. This was literally the level of discussion on the periphery of...

        I did not want to come across as insensitive or even taunting, but I did want to point out what's still the norm for a lot of people.

        This was literally the level of discussion on the periphery of the most liberal political party here like 4 years back. I was literally sitting on one end end of a table with a person in transition and against us a membership applicant who was debating the issue with us at this level (who was unaware one of us is transitioning). It was super awful. We've also gotten a load of "it's a good idea to sterilize them anyway, so that do not pass those faulty genes on".

        I repeat, they wanted to become a member of the most liberal (and progressive) party at that time.

        "Mutilation"

        I've deliberately chosen this loaded word, because I feel it conveys what an uninformed parent (or more frequently grand parent), might feel like could be happening. I am talking about cis families that have zero experience with anything out of the established norm or at least do not know about any.

        Mother of one of my (other currently transitioning) friends explained me how weird it was when their kid came out about not being heterosexual. They were on board, but the rest of the town was super weirded out. And this was outskirts of the second largest city in here. Like 10 years ago, waaay past the people in capital have gotten used to it.

        5 votes
        1. Minori
          Link Parent
          And I can appreciate where you're coming from with the context you've just given, but there's a time and a place. Many queer and trans people grow exhausted of that kind of language due to how...

          And I can appreciate where you're coming from with the context you've just given, but there's a time and a place. Many queer and trans people grow exhausted of that kind of language due to how often they hear it from hateful or ignorant people.

          I understand that you're trying to bring a unique viewpoint, but I think it needs to be phrased more gently or at least given a lot more upfront context. Some people might even ask that you hide the more inflammatory quotes under spoiler text or at the bottom of your comment because they just don't want to hear or see that kind of language about a very real, personal issue.

          10 votes
        2. GenuinelyCrooked
          Link Parent
          Then why did you refer to those concerns as "legitimate"?

          I've deliberately chosen this loaded word, because I feel it conveys what an uninformed parent (or more frequently grand parent), might feel like could be happening.

          Then why did you refer to those concerns as "legitimate"?

          6 votes
    4. ix-ix
      Link Parent
      Please become informed before spouting hatred like this.

      Some do have legitimate concerns, like those US parents. After all, it's potentially a mutilation one might eventually regret.

      Please become informed before spouting hatred like this.

      12 votes