16
votes
T20 bits and screws, what am I doing wrong?
I am putting a new surface on my Deck. I am using Trex and 2.5" composite specific screws. These are small head screws with a T20 torx bit.
[img]https://i.ibb.co/MchtXPx/20230628-175119.jpg[/img]
![https://i.ibb.co/MchtXPx/20230628-175119.jpg[/img]](https://i.ibb.co/MchtXPx/20230628-175119.jpg%5B/img%5D){kind=link}
I am 7.5 boards in out of 25 boards and I have destroyed 5 bits, 3 of them brand name impact rated bits. I am making sure to stay cammed in, and weight on top of the screw. I am lining the drill up with the angle of the screw. I am also predrilling every hole.
I feel like I have to be doing something wrong. I just don't know what else to do.
Edit - these are the exact screws I am using - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Grip-Rite-9-x-2-1-2-in-Brown-Star-Drive-Pan-Head-Coarse-Composite-Deck-Screw-10-lbs-Pack-N212CSB10BK/207193648
I can't imagine how this is possible with pre-drilled holes. I've been using torx screws (GRKs specifically) exclusively for years now and I'm not sure I have any T20 bits that are this degraded (T15s don't last as long though). The only thing I can think of is that your screws are too soft (either because they're cheap in general or because your particular batch is out of spec).
I did read after I posted this, and some reviewers indicate a similar issue to what I am having. The color and the way it looks once in is great, but this is a pita.
The screws indicate for poly or composite wood so if you're using solid wood, that could be the reason. From your below comment it sounds like your predrill is correct size, according to a quick Google, but can also go up to 9/64 if you're using a straight drill bit.
I recently did a project (garden bridge with decking boards) with some Home Depot cheapo brown screws (square-head since that's much more common here in Canada) and they were equally as bad. A good portion had welds somehow in the square such that I couldn't even fit the bit in. And the ones that I was able to drive also destroyed my bits eventually. Home Depot in general, at least around here for me, has been very poor quality as of late. I've started buying competitor's products lately and they have been much better for me.
Everything was bought from Home Depot, so maybe that has something to do with it. The screws I bought said 'lifetime guarantee' so figured that was a good pairing with the Trex, and the color was perfect for the board color too. I wonder if thicker t25 would have reduced the issues. I saw some with t25 heads, but not the same color.
I haven't worked with composite decking, but I've used Torx on other (wood) projects and found the bits were pretty much disposable. I theorized that having the bit destroy itself before the fastener was a Good Thing, as it meant you could replace the bit and sink the screw instead of having to extract a screw with a damaged drive head. In any case, it would certainly be faster.
When I saw they sell bits in box packages of 10 I decided that my theory was holding water. I just bought more bits and didn't worry about it anymore.
Good luck with your project!
You can get pretty much all bits in packs of 10
Yeah, i think you're spot on with the reasoning for big packages of bits. I'll take square drive over torx, but its hard to find where I am.
Are you using an impact drill or a normal drill?
I've done a lot of DIY and I don't think I've ever stripped a torx screw; the only time I've come close is when working at an angle sharper than I really should.
Are the bits sitting in the head snuggly before driving them, at all? If there's any play of the bit in the head, then something is definitely off.
Their problem seems really strange. The whole point of torx is that you are applying force at a near 90 degree angle and can apply huge torque without risk of cam out.
Using an impact would also limit the risk the stripping the head. But I have never stripped a torx screw using a drill. I have snapped them by applying too much torque. That shows really that the head can handle so much force that the screw will snap before being stripped.
For the torx bits, they should only really experience damage if you are using an impact when they are not rated for it.
I use deck mate screws on pretty much everything after doing a couple desks with them.
Don't use the shitty little bit that comes with the screw packs. I use the orangish bits that are sold separately, and it takes a loooong time to strip them. I usually lose the bit first.
Sounds like user error, or drilling into petrified wood. Like you say, unless you're at a very bad angle, it's hard to even strip the paint on the screws.
This may sound strange but a screw lubricant might help. Something like vaseline or beeswax. This will make driving the screw in easier and reduce the chance of stripping the screw. An impact driver might help as well.
Do they make stuff like that for the holes?
You put the lubricant on the screw, not in the hole. They probably sell specially made lubricant for this purpose but I usually just use beeswax (or rather leather wax that is mostly made of beeswax) but any type of wax will do. I've also used vaseline in the past and that works just fine too. Like @monkeywork said a candle might work as well.
Just don't use soap because that will draw in moisture and can cause rust.
Use Robertson screws and bits if you can find them. I'm Canadian so they're ubiquitous (especially for decking) but they (IMO) are the best screws.
I was almost certain a Canadian would chip in to herald the supremacy of Robertson. You guys are obsessed it is almost like a cult, with that screw standard being a point of national pride.
I'm not saying you are wrong, Robertson is fantastic particularly compared to phillips. However torx should be less likely to strip the head when you look at how the torque is applied. I'm pretty sure no matter what head was on these screws they would have been stripped.
I've never seen Robertson in the UK, so unfortunately no matter how many times Canadians espouse their virtue, it isn't practical over here. Bloody phillips is everywhere. I'd far prefer if Robertson, Torx or anything other than slotted was common.
Slotted screws are still bloody everywhere in houses. There is this idea that they look better, so any screws visible to people in the house will be slotted.
Evil, evil practice. When you have a house 150 years old, some of those old slotted screws do not take kindly to a screwdriver or impact.
Ah yes, the 3 Canadian cult followings; roberson bits, the Avro Arrow, and poutine.
Maybe this isn't relevant, but be aware that there are square bits MASQUERADING as robertson. They are NOT the same thing.
Edit: I realize now that the avro arrow link doesn't really do the cultural impact a justice. But basically a lot of people believed that the Arrow was so good that the Americans forced us to shut the project down because it made their airplanes look bad. These people also believe that we would still be using it today.
The Canadians with us Irish have one shared point of national pride that still has (a very old) cult following, Massey Ferguson.
Ferguson like me was from County Down. The man built an F1 car to demonstrate the superiority of his tractors' transmissions. Sterling Moss describing it as his favourite car he ever drove.
My Da has a 1950's Massey Ferguson, back when roll cages were a fever dream. When I left home for uni in 2005, coming home my Da would say "I just want to show you something, come with me". He'd lead me down the yard, step up to the tractor and it would start perfectly every time. 70 year old machine, thing of beauty.
Tim Hortons 15 years ago was probably also in this category. But there seems to be backlash now after the Burger King merger.
I was not aware of the Burger King thing but they are WAY less of an icon now and instead are just known quantity in terms of coffee and food.
I am in the UK and I almost never see Philips. Lots of Pozidrive which superficially looks like Philips but has features which make it almost as good as Torx.
I have only seen Robertson in the context of pocket hole screws and they are terrible compared to pozi or Torx, but that could just be the particular screws and drivers I have. It's not like I can just pop to the shop and get better Robertson driver/screws!
Yeah sorry, I actually mean Phillips and Pozidrive, I was just lazy. You will generally see pozidrive with anything new, but there is oh, oh so much phillips screws in old buildings.
Canada being a younger country and North America generally having knocked down older buildings and rebuilt is covered in Robertson as far as I understand.
Uh oh, I’m about to start an international incident. As an American living in Canada, I kind of hate Robertson. Torx is so much better. Maybe I’m doing something wrong, but I get so much cam-out with Robertson and destroy my bits so quickly.
Better be careful, you might get deported.
What are you driving them in with?
Ryobi cordless drill. I tried using a clutch but it had 25 settings, and if I go 20 it doesn't go all the way in, but at 21 it will go straight through the board.
You should really use an impact driver
You need to use an impact driver for this or a proper screw gun. This is a case of the wrong tool for the job
I'm no drill-bit-ologist, but I can't see how this would cause the issue OP is having?
Because he's obviously not using the drill correctly and the impact is easier. Sounds like he's just not putting enough pressure on the bit and letting the torx cam out and destroy it's self. Will be less likely with an impact. He's obviously an amateur or wouldn't need to ask this question so have to assume he's just doing something wrong. Didn't want to put it like that so gave him an easier option
I don't think they're using the drill wrong; Torx and other bits with flat heads are designed to not require forward pressure beyond that required to keep it on the screw. I think it's just a case of low quality screws and/or bits.
It wouldn't. You can use a drill for this purpose just fine, as long as it has enough power.
I don't even own an impact driver and never had any issues with screws stripping.
What gear are you using? You should be using the slower speed, higher torque gear.
But, really, you should be using an impact driver. (This is a pretty good excuse to go get one.)
There we go, if it has a clutch it’s a drill and it’s meant for drilling. Driving screws with it will give you a bad time. An impact driver will work. Another user commented in this thread about the differences between them.
The impact driver helped, definitely reduced destroyed bits but I still chewed 2 more up. The rate I was going at was going to be about 15 bits total. Instead I only destroyed 6.
Do you remember what screws you used? They’re also probably partially to blame.
Cheap screws kinda suck. Just for shits and giggles try a t 25. See if that helps.
Hey all, a lot of replies here, so gonna try to catch them all.
I have a ryobi impact drill, I thought that would have made it strip faster. This is my first time doing a large wood project like this, so that's my inexperience. I will get new bits and swap to the impact driver and see how that works.
I was making sure to be firmly in and straight over the screw. When they stripped, it was at most of the way down and the angle was usually the same between the drill and the screw.
For setting, I am on the slow/ torque setting. This also helps me make sure I don't overdrive the screw into the board and am getting similar depth each screw.
I can use Vaseline to prelube, but want to try using an impact drill first and see if that is the source of my issue.
Thank you everyone. I'll probably go grab the new bits tomorrow and work on the deck some more. Crossing my fingers the drill does it.
To be clear, there are kind of three separate tools that could be getting confused here:
Of these, the impact driver is the tool you want to be using. If you're using a hammer drill (with the hammering turned on) I can imagine that would eat through bits, though I'm kind of surprised it's not eating through screws first if that's the case.
If they are using an impact driver, they are far better at not stripping the heads of screws. The force being applied near instantaneously limits any cam out.
But their image shows the screw heads being totally stripped which is weird for torx. It is hard to see how damaged the bits are. They seem to be coated in metal from the stripped screws along with damage.
If I was to hazard a guess the screws are total crap and bizarrely soft. When they started stripping the heads, I think they might have continued to force the impact driver in spinning at high speed without the hammer engaging. That might have damaged the bits because they weren't engaging the screw, they were bashing against the sides at high speed.
Impact "rated" bits are made of harder alloys. That makes them more brittle. That isn't an issue if they are seated properly, but if spinning rapidly and whacking metal they will chip.
Either bits are craptastic in the US or your screws are shit - I’ve used impact drivers for about as long as they’ve been a thing and while bits do wear out, nothing at all like in 7.5 boards.
Occasionally I slip up and my bit cams out and it gets destroyed, but if it doesn’t my bits last wayyy longer.
I agree, I've never had this kind of issue with an impact driver. But I'm guessing if there was a misunderstanding and they were using a hammer drill instead that it might cause this sort of problem.
I've used T2O bits and screws from US Home Depots using a $40 black and decker drill and not had the problems the OP is showing. I think it is either a bad batch of bits, or more likely, screws.
Yea, this is an impact driver, not a hammer drill for concrete. I used one of those last year to place concrete anchors under my deck. That was fun haha.
The bits look weirdly conical and the screws might've a bad fit due to the paint. I you search for torx bits they're all straight besides the ones you got.
Torx are designed so that you don't have to apply pressure.
I would try other screws first and some other bits second. Impact doesn't do anything good for you.
Huh, I've never seen painted screws before. I've seen screws with painted heads before, but never one with the threads painted before. I'd imagine that it might be part of the problem; they might be fine for wood, but the composites might be creating too much friction.
For decking you really want stainless screws of a good alloy anyway - at least where I live anything else just rusts to pieces.
Are you pushing into the screw as you drill in? That's how I do my woodwork, otherwise I'll strip my screws for not applying enough pressure.
I weight 280 and I was leaning on the back of the drill as I was screwing in, so I believe there was enough pressure. When it stripped, it was the bit itself, and was stripped all the way into the screw head, not like it was cammed out. It seems that for some reason the splines on the torx bits are slowly getting chewed up and then just fail after about 80 screws or so.
Some pointed out it may be because I'm using a normal drill and not an impact drill. I have an impact drill so I will try it tomorrow after I get new bits.
Are the predrilled holes of appropriate diameter for the screws?
It's a #9 screw and I am using a 7/64 bit. Doesn't say what to predrilled. In fact one of its claims is that it works without predrilled, but I was having mushroom issues at the top and oredrilking fixed that.
This sounds like bad driver bits. Buy Wera. They're expensive but I have yet to destroy one even after driving tens of thousands of fasteners. Nothing else comes close when it comes to driver bits, not dewalt (expensive trash), Milwaukee (expensive but passable), Makita (moderately priced trash) or Erbauer (cheap but awful)
Impact driver vs drill driver won't make much difference here. Drill drivers are less harsh on driver bits if anything.
I was in a hurry so just bought the Milwaukee Shockwave bits, as they seemed a better fit and wear than the Dewalt I bought before. I still chewed 2 more up, but the impact driver seemed to have lessen the amount of wear.