Yeah. At what point do you let the cat die? My wife and I have an elderly cat who has a number of health concerns, and she started having occasional seizures near the beginning of this year. It...
Yeah. At what point do you let the cat die? My wife and I have an elderly cat who has a number of health concerns, and she started having occasional seizures near the beginning of this year. It took a multi-thousand dollar quote from a pet neurologist for cranial scans before the price finally made my wife take a step back and seriously think about whether it was worth a months' rent to potentially diagnose a brain condition on an elderly cat.
Part of it is pricing, and part of it is a resistance to loss when our pets are the living things that we spend the most time with. Working from home, we see the cat more than friends or family; how can we say that they're not worth the money when we might be able to help them?
At some point no amount of money will solve the failings of the flesh, but it's hard to say that we won't pay until we reach the point where it's clear that the final curtain is starting to lower.
Private equity is buying up vet practices in the major cities in my state, but not in the rural areas, where I live. As a result, local vets are aging out and can't find anyone to replace them....
Private equity is buying up vet practices in the major cities in my state, but not in the rural areas, where I live. As a result, local vets are aging out and can't find anyone to replace them. Folks out here don't have the big bucks to spend on their kids, let alone their pets. Young folks would rather have the big city amenities and the the corpo benefits (and to be fair, a better chance of paying off the massive loans they took out for vet school) than the freedom of an independent practice out in the country. My vet is retiring in December and they've spent a year looking for a replacement without any luck. It's the same as with human medicine--we've been paying taxes for years for a (now fully funded) hospital that will never be built, because the profit margin in rural areas will never compete with the city.
Meanwhile folks and their pets suffer . And die. But some rich folks will keep making more money they don't need.
It can be a bit of a crap shoot having a rural vet practice. Mine refers us to urgent care almost every time there is an issue. One cat was gushing blood from a fight, another had what turned out...
It can be a bit of a crap shoot having a rural vet practice. Mine refers us to urgent care almost every time there is an issue. One cat was gushing blood from a fight, another had what turned out to be a UTI (low appetite and peeing outside litter box). Both were referred to an urgent care 30 minutes away because our vet down the road didn't have any availability.
Add in the fact they they can't do X-rays, ultrasounds or other more urgent diagnostics, it makes it hard to justify keeping them as our primary for our pets. I think a big part of it is that more pet owners want more advanced practices to help our pets than we used to. We're no longer as comfortable with basic diagnoses and then either end of life care or put them down if there is a more severe situation. We want to try to save them.
A couple I know adopted two kittens a couple years ago. One of the kittens, after like a 2-3mo, got real sick. This led to a some emergency visits to the vet, rounds of testing, a few different...
A couple I know adopted two kittens a couple years ago. One of the kittens, after like a 2-3mo, got real sick. This led to a some emergency visits to the vet, rounds of testing, a few different types of medication, and then even an experimental drug that my friends had to import from like New Zealand, since it wasn't approved in the US.
The cat thankfully recovered after the experimental medication, and is doing very well these days -- maybe too well, as the cat is a chonker these days! -- but they spent something like $6000 total.
That cost naturally spawned a conversation among our group of friends. I also have a cat, but if I were in their shoes and had to pay $6000, I could do it, but that would've been over half of my savings at the time. Even today that's still a good chunk. Would that be a wise choice of my emergency savings? What happens if I paid the vet bill and then my car broke down? Or I lost my job? Or I, myself, had some kind of medical emergency?
$6000 would've been like 4-5 months of rent + utils. If my car repair bill was $6000, that probably means I'm going to buy another car; that could be a hefty down payment. I don't know what $6000 gets me in a hospital, maybe a pair of disposable slippers, but still.
I even thought about if it was "worth" spending that much on a kitten that they "only" had for no more than a few months. I don't think I actually mentioned that to the group -- they'd probably think I'm some kind of monster -- but I definitely thought about it. $6000 to save this kitten, or let it die and go adopt another one for $200? Does how long you've had your pet matter?
This couple is definitely in a better financial position than me. It was a lot of money to them, too, but it didn't hurt their wallets as much as it would've hurt mine.
My cat and I have been together for 8yrs. I got him as a kitten, too. About a week after he came home with me, I had to bring him to the emergency pet hospital at like 1am. Luckily, it just turned out to be a Cold, but seeing a kitten struggling to breath and sneezing/coughing all over the place and snot running down its little nose is pretty sad and scary. That was like $500 total.
But would I spend $6000? I don't know. Does that make me a bad person for being unsure? I don't know, but I know some or even many people would think so. And it's a shame that corporations and investors are willing to take advantage of that, that emotional pressure and social pressure, to wring a few extra hundreds or thousands of bucks out of people.
The thing about the $6000 is that it wasn't up front. This young couple was in the same place you were: a tiny critter is suffering. Then they drove to a vet like you did. And then they said yes...
The thing about the $6000 is that it wasn't up front. This young couple was in the same place you were: a tiny critter is suffering. Then they drove to a vet like you did. And then they said yes to this. Said yes to that. They were told we're doing our best and let's give kitten something to feel better. And kitten looks to be in less suffering.
Then they got the bill.
When we're sick we don't hold our hands up and say Woah Woah Woah gimme the total tax in receipt first, then we'll discuss, then we'll say yes or no tomorrow. What they're doing to captive audiences is disgusting.
I've wondered the same question of "worth" myself. Grew up in a culture where animals are animals, not family. I think part of the calculation is that they're paying $6000 to regain the 20 years they mentally prepared to spend with the kitten, not just the few months together. And when push comes to shove not many people put on the stop can find it in themselves to say yes please "economically euthanize" a creature they had promised to care for and love . Most probably either say yes or return home in anguish to think about it first
I don't think it makes you a bad person for being unsure. You are at least aware of it and recognize there is also an emotional aspect to it. We do have the income and savings to spend a...
I don't think it makes you a bad person for being unsure. You are at least aware of it and recognize there is also an emotional aspect to it.
We do have the income and savings to spend a considerable amount on cat healthcare if need be. As our cat is of senior age, we recently also had a conversation about this. For us what is most important is that whatever we decide needs to benefit the cat not us. So treatment not only needs to prolong her live but in a way that she does not suffer unnecessarily just because we can't stand to lose her.
As she as has been with us for over a decade and basically is part of our family for so long, as long as she benefits we would be spending that amount of money on her.
Let me guess, FIP? That story sounds really similar to what the ex and I went through 5-6 years ago. I didn't go as far as buying the experimental medication, that seemed too far. What I found out...
Let me guess, FIP? That story sounds really similar to what the ex and I went through 5-6 years ago. I didn't go as far as buying the experimental medication, that seemed too far.
What I found out later was, that same medication is used in other countries on the regular but Gilead refuses to license its human variant. That drug's name became well known in 2020. It's Remdisavir.
Our cat had a lymphoma, and we ended up spending a lot of money on treatment (which was successful). But when we were discussing our options with the veterinary oncologist, the first thing he said...
Our cat had a lymphoma, and we ended up spending a lot of money on treatment (which was successful). But when we were discussing our options with the veterinary oncologist, the first thing he said was that doing nothing was an entirely valid choice. I really appreciated that.
Yuck. Prices will only go down again if the wider public decides vet care is no longer a necessity for their/pet's happiness. Big Vet's dream scenario is if the government starts to pay their...
Yuck.
In March 2024, the Consumer Price Index for urban consumers was up 3.5 percent year over year. The veterinary-services category was up 9.6 percent.
Prices will only go down again if the wider public decides vet care is no longer a necessity for their/pet's happiness. Big Vet's dream scenario is if the government starts to pay their profits, the way human medical care is being milked.
This kind of conglomeration is also why human houses are so dang expensive: home builder cartels buying up / financing independent builders across the country and jacking up the prices.
I don't recommend reading BIG - he's an unreliable writer with an axe to grind. Construction Physics is a much better source. Historically, prices for new single-family homes were low after World...
I don't recommend reading BIG - he's an unreliable writer with an axe to grind. Construction Physics is a much better source.
Historically, prices for new single-family homes were low after World War II when there were builders who had experience building huge numbers of homes. They built entire communities at once, on unincorporated farmland outside city limits. They had their own sawmills, etc. Before that, independent builders only built a few houses a year. Houses aren't built that way anymore in most places because the land isn't there to justify building at the scale needed to save money that way, and regulatory requirements are much stricter.
More specifically for large home builders, NIMBY construction regulations are scattered and hyper-local. There's no one blue print that can be followed in every municipality in the US anymore....
regulatory requirements are much stricter.
More specifically for large home builders, NIMBY construction regulations are scattered and hyper-local. There's no one blue print that can be followed in every municipality in the US anymore. There's no national zoning code. It's a difficult industry.
But it's not "Big Vet"! It's private equity firms that create the veterinary conglomerates. A couple years ago, I noticed my local speciality vet had raised prices every 6 months. I did a little...
But it's not "Big Vet"! It's private equity firms that create the veterinary conglomerates.
A couple years ago, I noticed my local speciality vet had raised prices every 6 months. I did a little research. Sure enough, the owner had retired and sold to a conglomerate, with a press release stating how the new owner would maintain the loving standard of care. Digging deeper, yes, a PE firm owned that conglomerate company.
This is particularly close to home right now - our rescue Doberman of only four years (he could be anywhere between six and nine years old) was just diagnosed with cancer last month. We decided to...
This is particularly close to home right now - our rescue Doberman of only four years (he could be anywhere between six and nine years old) was just diagnosed with cancer last month.
We decided to continue treatment after talking with the specialists at the state university vet clinic, with cost estimates around $4,000 for amputation and chemo.
We're in a place where we can afford this sort of financial situation relatively comfortably. But even if we couldn't, I don't think I would let price get in the way. Which, incidentally is exactly why we set up a separate emergency fund specifically for our pets, because we knew that if something happened we would sooner default on loans than lose a pet to what this article calls financial euthanasia.
It's a situation, much like human health care, ripe for exploitation.
I've gone through this with two dogs previously, where I wasn't in the financial situation to be able to afford the necessary end of life care. I'm lucky, the first one was with my childhood dog,...
I've gone through this with two dogs previously, where I wasn't in the financial situation to be able to afford the necessary end of life care. I'm lucky, the first one was with my childhood dog, and my parents were still financially responsible for him. Did we let him live way later than we should have because of our need for him to be in our lives? Absolutely. He was my dog, and I loved him more than anything.
My second dog had a heart condition we knew would kill her eventually. We were quoted a 5-year lifespan for her, but she lived to 12 before her heart finally failed her. Again, I wasn't in a position to be able to financially handle her medical care, and my dad wasn't really in that position either, but we spent what we could until the end to keep her comfortable. I would go into debt to make sure my dogs were at the very least comfortable at the end of their lives.
Now, I have health insurance, and a vet-care membership through the vet we go to. Those two things stacked make paying for the dog's medical bills so much easier. We get an annual credit on her membership, which comes out to about $200 more than we pay annually, with way more perks, and the insurance pays for all the other stuff with a 90% reimbursement. It works out for us, because our dog is as clumsy as her momma, and gets into things sometimes. We've been to the vet 4 times so far this year, twice three weeks apart for two different issues.
Setting up a separate emergency vet fund is a great idea, and I think once Mr. Tired gets a new job, we will create a new savings account in our joint bank account to save money for puppy care there.
My cat, Marlow, has had pneumonia for about five or six days now. I wrote more about it here (https://tildes.net/~life.pets/1i8p/weekly_thread_for_casual_chat_and_photos_of_pets#comment-dg46). In...
In all, we have spent over $3.5k getting his eye removed, neutering him, and now in treatment for pneumonia. Thankfully, it seems he's only getting better every day. He's eating and drinking on his own, playing, and has urinated and defecated at least once (when I was able to see him).
My mom said she wouldn't expect any quality clinic to see him for a regular check-up during all this for less than $300. I don't think that's too unreasonable of a price. But I got an ointment from them for his appetite, and the ointment had already been halfway used up! They also sent home digestive canned food for him for $20 that I did NOT ask for (and wouldn't have asked for because he doesn't really eat canned food), nor did they tell me they'd send it. It was not discussed at all with me before I paid.
I don't think my vet is owned by a PE firm, but I can't imagine having to go to one and having to pay more money. Idk. Maybe the quality of care would be higher?
But like others have said, at some point, no amount of money will heal flesh issues. Four years ago, I had spent over $2k to try to heal my other cat, McTavish, from the same pneumonia Marlow has. He was five years older, and we caught it later than we did for Marlow, and it just didn't work.
And you just know some poor SOB out there will judge you and try to shame you or claim you didn't love your pet if you "give up too early." The price for trying to save a life is extremely subjective and depends on the chances of survival and the size of your wallet, in addition to how much you want/value the pet. Regardless of all this, having to put a pet down or opt for a sub-par treatment plan (like me skipping out on doing bloodwork as well as a second round of xrays just 2 days after the first xrays) because of finances just adds to the already painful situation that is (potentially) losing a family member. Honestly, it makes me feel like a bad mom. It was bad enough that I was reliving losing McTavish. I'm just glad we got lucky that he's pulling through.
I feel that the corporate pressure to sell more and more while providing less and less service (for the same price) is psychological pressure point that you can add to the long list of existing...
I feel that the corporate pressure to sell more and more while providing less and less service (for the same price) is psychological pressure point that you can add to the long list of existing ones vets have to deal with.
Someone close in my family is a vet; I'm glad she's not working for a mom-and-pop vet, and that vet megacorp is less of a thing where I live.
Yeah. At what point do you let the cat die? My wife and I have an elderly cat who has a number of health concerns, and she started having occasional seizures near the beginning of this year. It took a multi-thousand dollar quote from a pet neurologist for cranial scans before the price finally made my wife take a step back and seriously think about whether it was worth a months' rent to potentially diagnose a brain condition on an elderly cat.
Part of it is pricing, and part of it is a resistance to loss when our pets are the living things that we spend the most time with. Working from home, we see the cat more than friends or family; how can we say that they're not worth the money when we might be able to help them?
At some point no amount of money will solve the failings of the flesh, but it's hard to say that we won't pay until we reach the point where it's clear that the final curtain is starting to lower.
Private equity is buying up vet practices in the major cities in my state, but not in the rural areas, where I live. As a result, local vets are aging out and can't find anyone to replace them. Folks out here don't have the big bucks to spend on their kids, let alone their pets. Young folks would rather have the big city amenities and the the corpo benefits (and to be fair, a better chance of paying off the massive loans they took out for vet school) than the freedom of an independent practice out in the country. My vet is retiring in December and they've spent a year looking for a replacement without any luck. It's the same as with human medicine--we've been paying taxes for years for a (now fully funded) hospital that will never be built, because the profit margin in rural areas will never compete with the city.
Meanwhile folks and their pets suffer . And die. But some rich folks will keep making more money they don't need.
It can be a bit of a crap shoot having a rural vet practice. Mine refers us to urgent care almost every time there is an issue. One cat was gushing blood from a fight, another had what turned out to be a UTI (low appetite and peeing outside litter box). Both were referred to an urgent care 30 minutes away because our vet down the road didn't have any availability.
Add in the fact they they can't do X-rays, ultrasounds or other more urgent diagnostics, it makes it hard to justify keeping them as our primary for our pets. I think a big part of it is that more pet owners want more advanced practices to help our pets than we used to. We're no longer as comfortable with basic diagnoses and then either end of life care or put them down if there is a more severe situation. We want to try to save them.
A couple I know adopted two kittens a couple years ago. One of the kittens, after like a 2-3mo, got real sick. This led to a some emergency visits to the vet, rounds of testing, a few different types of medication, and then even an experimental drug that my friends had to import from like New Zealand, since it wasn't approved in the US.
The cat thankfully recovered after the experimental medication, and is doing very well these days -- maybe too well, as the cat is a chonker these days! -- but they spent something like $6000 total.
That cost naturally spawned a conversation among our group of friends. I also have a cat, but if I were in their shoes and had to pay $6000, I could do it, but that would've been over half of my savings at the time. Even today that's still a good chunk. Would that be a wise choice of my emergency savings? What happens if I paid the vet bill and then my car broke down? Or I lost my job? Or I, myself, had some kind of medical emergency?
$6000 would've been like 4-5 months of rent + utils. If my car repair bill was $6000, that probably means I'm going to buy another car; that could be a hefty down payment. I don't know what $6000 gets me in a hospital, maybe a pair of disposable slippers, but still.
I even thought about if it was "worth" spending that much on a kitten that they "only" had for no more than a few months. I don't think I actually mentioned that to the group -- they'd probably think I'm some kind of monster -- but I definitely thought about it. $6000 to save this kitten, or let it die and go adopt another one for $200? Does how long you've had your pet matter?
This couple is definitely in a better financial position than me. It was a lot of money to them, too, but it didn't hurt their wallets as much as it would've hurt mine.
My cat and I have been together for 8yrs. I got him as a kitten, too. About a week after he came home with me, I had to bring him to the emergency pet hospital at like 1am. Luckily, it just turned out to be a Cold, but seeing a kitten struggling to breath and sneezing/coughing all over the place and snot running down its little nose is pretty sad and scary. That was like $500 total.
But would I spend $6000? I don't know. Does that make me a bad person for being unsure? I don't know, but I know some or even many people would think so. And it's a shame that corporations and investors are willing to take advantage of that, that emotional pressure and social pressure, to wring a few extra hundreds or thousands of bucks out of people.
The thing about the $6000 is that it wasn't up front. This young couple was in the same place you were: a tiny critter is suffering. Then they drove to a vet like you did. And then they said yes to this. Said yes to that. They were told we're doing our best and let's give kitten something to feel better. And kitten looks to be in less suffering.
Then they got the bill.
When we're sick we don't hold our hands up and say Woah Woah Woah gimme the total tax in receipt first, then we'll discuss, then we'll say yes or no tomorrow. What they're doing to captive audiences is disgusting.
I've wondered the same question of "worth" myself. Grew up in a culture where animals are animals, not family. I think part of the calculation is that they're paying $6000 to regain the 20 years they mentally prepared to spend with the kitten, not just the few months together. And when push comes to shove not many people put on the stop can find it in themselves to say yes please "economically euthanize" a creature they had promised to care for and love . Most probably either say yes or return home in anguish to think about it first
I don't think it makes you a bad person for being unsure. You are at least aware of it and recognize there is also an emotional aspect to it.
We do have the income and savings to spend a considerable amount on cat healthcare if need be. As our cat is of senior age, we recently also had a conversation about this. For us what is most important is that whatever we decide needs to benefit the cat not us. So treatment not only needs to prolong her live but in a way that she does not suffer unnecessarily just because we can't stand to lose her.
As she as has been with us for over a decade and basically is part of our family for so long, as long as she benefits we would be spending that amount of money on her.
Let me guess, FIP? That story sounds really similar to what the ex and I went through 5-6 years ago. I didn't go as far as buying the experimental medication, that seemed too far.
What I found out later was, that same medication is used in other countries on the regular but Gilead refuses to license its human variant. That drug's name became well known in 2020. It's Remdisavir.
Our cat had a lymphoma, and we ended up spending a lot of money on treatment (which was successful). But when we were discussing our options with the veterinary oncologist, the first thing he said was that doing nothing was an entirely valid choice. I really appreciated that.
Yuck.
Prices will only go down again if the wider public decides vet care is no longer a necessity for their/pet's happiness. Big Vet's dream scenario is if the government starts to pay their profits, the way human medical care is being milked.
This kind of conglomeration is also why human houses are so dang expensive: home builder cartels buying up / financing independent builders across the country and jacking up the prices.
I don't recommend reading BIG - he's an unreliable writer with an axe to grind. Construction Physics is a much better source.
Historically, prices for new single-family homes were low after World War II when there were builders who had experience building huge numbers of homes. They built entire communities at once, on unincorporated farmland outside city limits. They had their own sawmills, etc. Before that, independent builders only built a few houses a year. Houses aren't built that way anymore in most places because the land isn't there to justify building at the scale needed to save money that way, and regulatory requirements are much stricter.
More specifically for large home builders, NIMBY construction regulations are scattered and hyper-local. There's no one blue print that can be followed in every municipality in the US anymore. There's no national zoning code. It's a difficult industry.
But it's not "Big Vet"! It's private equity firms that create the veterinary conglomerates.
A couple years ago, I noticed my local speciality vet had raised prices every 6 months. I did a little research. Sure enough, the owner had retired and sold to a conglomerate, with a press release stating how the new owner would maintain the loving standard of care. Digging deeper, yes, a PE firm owned that conglomerate company.
That's what the article calls private equity? They called it big vet throughout the article ?
The article doesn't get it quite right. It's PE, driving up veterinary costs, to squeeze more profit out of pet owners.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/vet-private-equity-industry/678180/
https://washingtonstatestandard.com/2024/04/02/vets-fret-as-private-equity-snaps-up-clinics-pet-care-companies/
This is particularly close to home right now - our rescue Doberman of only four years (he could be anywhere between six and nine years old) was just diagnosed with cancer last month.
We decided to continue treatment after talking with the specialists at the state university vet clinic, with cost estimates around $4,000 for amputation and chemo.
We're in a place where we can afford this sort of financial situation relatively comfortably. But even if we couldn't, I don't think I would let price get in the way. Which, incidentally is exactly why we set up a separate emergency fund specifically for our pets, because we knew that if something happened we would sooner default on loans than lose a pet to what this article calls financial euthanasia.
It's a situation, much like human health care, ripe for exploitation.
I've gone through this with two dogs previously, where I wasn't in the financial situation to be able to afford the necessary end of life care. I'm lucky, the first one was with my childhood dog, and my parents were still financially responsible for him. Did we let him live way later than we should have because of our need for him to be in our lives? Absolutely. He was my dog, and I loved him more than anything.
My second dog had a heart condition we knew would kill her eventually. We were quoted a 5-year lifespan for her, but she lived to 12 before her heart finally failed her. Again, I wasn't in a position to be able to financially handle her medical care, and my dad wasn't really in that position either, but we spent what we could until the end to keep her comfortable. I would go into debt to make sure my dogs were at the very least comfortable at the end of their lives.
Now, I have health insurance, and a vet-care membership through the vet we go to. Those two things stacked make paying for the dog's medical bills so much easier. We get an annual credit on her membership, which comes out to about $200 more than we pay annually, with way more perks, and the insurance pays for all the other stuff with a 90% reimbursement. It works out for us, because our dog is as clumsy as her momma, and gets into things sometimes. We've been to the vet 4 times so far this year, twice three weeks apart for two different issues.
Setting up a separate emergency vet fund is a great idea, and I think once Mr. Tired gets a new job, we will create a new savings account in our joint bank account to save money for puppy care there.
My cat, Marlow, has had pneumonia for about five or six days now. I wrote more about it here (https://tildes.net/~life.pets/1i8p/weekly_thread_for_casual_chat_and_photos_of_pets#comment-dg46).
In all, we have spent over $3.5k getting his eye removed, neutering him, and now in treatment for pneumonia. Thankfully, it seems he's only getting better every day. He's eating and drinking on his own, playing, and has urinated and defecated at least once (when I was able to see him).
My mom said she wouldn't expect any quality clinic to see him for a regular check-up during all this for less than $300. I don't think that's too unreasonable of a price. But I got an ointment from them for his appetite, and the ointment had already been halfway used up! They also sent home digestive canned food for him for $20 that I did NOT ask for (and wouldn't have asked for because he doesn't really eat canned food), nor did they tell me they'd send it. It was not discussed at all with me before I paid.
I don't think my vet is owned by a PE firm, but I can't imagine having to go to one and having to pay more money. Idk. Maybe the quality of care would be higher?
But like others have said, at some point, no amount of money will heal flesh issues. Four years ago, I had spent over $2k to try to heal my other cat, McTavish, from the same pneumonia Marlow has. He was five years older, and we caught it later than we did for Marlow, and it just didn't work.
And you just know some poor SOB out there will judge you and try to shame you or claim you didn't love your pet if you "give up too early." The price for trying to save a life is extremely subjective and depends on the chances of survival and the size of your wallet, in addition to how much you want/value the pet. Regardless of all this, having to put a pet down or opt for a sub-par treatment plan (like me skipping out on doing bloodwork as well as a second round of xrays just 2 days after the first xrays) because of finances just adds to the already painful situation that is (potentially) losing a family member. Honestly, it makes me feel like a bad mom. It was bad enough that I was reliving losing McTavish. I'm just glad we got lucky that he's pulling through.
I feel that the corporate pressure to sell more and more while providing less and less service (for the same price) is psychological pressure point that you can add to the long list of existing ones vets have to deal with.
Someone close in my family is a vet; I'm glad she's not working for a mom-and-pop vet, and that vet megacorp is less of a thing where I live.