25 votes

Topic deleted by author

20 comments

  1. [4]
    first-must-burn
    Link
    My wife has a lot of anxiety around hospitals and doctors so we looked into natural childbirth when she was pregnant with our daughter. We toured the birthing centers and had the meetings with the...
    • Exemplary

    My wife has a lot of anxiety around hospitals and doctors so we looked into natural childbirth when she was pregnant with our daughter. We toured the birthing centers and had the meetings with the staff, but in the end the deal breaker was the fact that if something went wrong, my wife would have gone to one hospital, the baby would have gone to another, and I would have had to choose which one to go with.

    Ultimately we ended up delivering in a midwife practice that is based out of the women's hospital in our area. The midwives offered a very holistic and women-centered approach to pregnancy, labor, and delivery, but it was backed up with all of the technology and capability of the wider OBGYN community in the hospital. We also had a doula, and having her there as someone experienced in the process was probably the thing that made the biggest difference in our overall-positive experience.
    It's great that we have access to so much healthcare where we live. Not everyone does.

    One thing that will always stick with me is an exercise that we did in birthing class. We were given cards with different choices like epidural / no epidural, delivery at the hospital / delivery at home, etc. and told to pick which ones we wanted for our delivery. There were about 20 options. Then she told us to choose the half that were the most important. Then she told us to take away all but four. She said, "Now that's your birthing plan. Those are the most important things. And of all of you here only a few of you will get even those four because so much of it will be out of your control."

    We had two friends who were due at almost the same time that we were. Of the three of us, my wife's delivery was "normal", one couple had to have a C-section because the baby was breech, followed by life flight to the Children's Hospital because of a serious medical issue (the baby is fine now), and the third mother was in the hospital for a month and a half before delivering constantly courting early delivery because of preeclampsia and high blood pressure. I don't think that all three of them would still be here with their babies if it weren't for all of the modern medical techniques. But I do see that there is some value in making sure that women are heard and that they are part of the process of their own health care.

    32 votes
    1. [3]
      Moonchild
      Link Parent
      Why?

      if something went wrong, my wife would have gone to one hospital, the baby would have gone to another, and I would have had to choose which one to go with

      Why?

      5 votes
      1. first-must-burn
        Link Parent
        Because the Women's Hospital is the main one set up for labor and delivery, which is mainly for healthy babies. The Children's Hospital is set up for sick babies, including a Level 1 Trauma NICU....

        Because the Women's Hospital is the main one set up for labor and delivery, which is mainly for healthy babies. The Children's Hospital is set up for sick babies, including a Level 1 Trauma NICU. Why they are not next to each other probably has to do with city geography and path dependence. They built Children's about 15 years ago by taking over a hospital that was being shut down. But I admit it is weird.

        I actually only realized it as I was writing this, but the exact outcome we were afraid of did happen to my friend -- his baby had to be life-flighted (helicoptered) to the Children's hospital while his wife remained at the Women's Hospital. Fortunately for them, they had a lot of family nearby.

        In the end, I don't think I would do anything differently. Not everything about being in the hospital was awesome, so I see why some people are looking for alternatives. Of all the things we did (or didn't do), I think having the doula was definitely the one that had the biggest impact. Everyone else works for the hospital and has other things to do, so they are in and out, but she was there with us the whole time. She knew everything that was going on, what questions to ask, what was normal and not normal. The support she provided to both of us was amazing.

        11 votes
      2. NeonBright
        Link Parent
        My baby and I were separated, me at one hospital and the baby at another, because our different health needs at the time could not be accommodated by any one institution. 0/10, do not recommend....

        My baby and I were separated, me at one hospital and the baby at another, because our different health needs at the time could not be accommodated by any one institution.
        0/10, do not recommend.
        Especially since the nurses at the hospital that I was at did not seem to understand that my baby was not in the nursery down the hall, but several miles away.
        It was one hell of a motivator to get up out of that bed and get myself discharged.

        9 votes
  2. [8]
    GenuinelyCrooked
    Link
    Perhaps Yarrow addresses this in the book, but it seems to me the obvious counter example to this claim is menstruation. Menstruation hurts in the normal course of health. With mine, pain tends to...

    “There is no physiological function in the body which gives rise to pain in the normal course of health,”

    Perhaps Yarrow addresses this in the book, but it seems to me the obvious counter example to this claim is menstruation. Menstruation hurts in the normal course of health. With mine, pain tends to be the first sign that it's starting, so it can't be fear of pain causing that pain. Would she consider me outside of the normal course of health for this reason?

    29 votes
    1. sparksbet
      Link Parent
      Yeah, while extreme pain in menstruation is a sign something is up (despite many doctors ignoring it as 'just normal'), it's absolutely normal to have some pain during menstruation. But also I...

      Yeah, while extreme pain in menstruation is a sign something is up (despite many doctors ignoring it as 'just normal'), it's absolutely normal to have some pain during menstruation.

      But also I mean there are other examples too. If I exercise today, my muscles will be sore af tomorrow.

      14 votes
    2. [5]
      pbmonster
      Link Parent
      Speaking of babies, teething would be another obvious counter example.

      Speaking of babies, teething would be another obvious counter example.

      11 votes
      1. [4]
        boxer_dogs_dance
        Link Parent
        When I was a kid I got random pain in my legs that they called growing pains

        When I was a kid I got random pain in my legs that they called growing pains

        7 votes
        1. [3]
          vord
          Link Parent
          I'll attest to that. Some nights it felt like someone was having a tug-of-war using my leg bones.

          I'll attest to that. Some nights it felt like someone was having a tug-of-war using my leg bones.

          4 votes
          1. [2]
            terr
            Link Parent
            I never experienced it myself, but I had a classmate who grew quite tall quite fast around puberty. She said that her pains were so bad her dad had to carry her up and down the stairs sometimes...

            I never experienced it myself, but I had a classmate who grew quite tall quite fast around puberty. She said that her pains were so bad her dad had to carry her up and down the stairs sometimes because she couldn't walk.

            4 votes
            1. vord
              Link Parent
              Checks out. I went from less than 5 ft to more than 6 ft inside of 3 years.

              Checks out. I went from less than 5 ft to more than 6 ft inside of 3 years.

              3 votes
    3. arch
      Link Parent
      I'm a male, so I don't have experience with menstruation. I also have an autoimmune disease that went un-diagnosed until earlier this year, which I suspect I have had my entire life. Because of...

      I'm a male, so I don't have experience with menstruation. I also have an autoimmune disease that went un-diagnosed until earlier this year, which I suspect I have had my entire life. Because of this I guess I'm not 100% certain that my experience is in line with what others experience, but for me, some level of pain is a completely normal part of life that is completely unavoidable. For me it's been daily to varying degrees throughout my life, I suspend for others it's more predictable what the cause is. Extreme pain, pain with no reason, can all be signs of a medical issue, yes. But teaching that life should be devoid of pain is simply setting an impossible standard that will only lead to practicing avoidance.

      4 votes
  3. boxer_dogs_dance
    Link

    But the righteousness of the natural childbirth movement’s complaints about exploitation and callous disregard by doctors can obscure the sometimes dubious empirical claims it makes about medical outcomes, or the essentialist and unsupported assumptions about women that motivate its reasoning. For one thing, the obstetrics field has changed dramatically since medicine was professionalized, and many of those changes have made obstetric practice and maternal care kinder and more skilled. For example, Yarrow spends a good deal of time decrying the use of episiotomies—surgical cuts made to the perineum during birth to create a larger opening for the baby to pass through. These cuts were painful and often conducted without the woman’s consent; sometimes, they were used to hasten birth when a bit more time and patience would have allowed a successful delivery without the painful and invasive genital incisions. But for all the horror of the episiotomy, the reality is that the procedure is only rarely practiced now. Its use began to decline in the 1980s, as a growing body of data showed that the incisions did not yield the beneficial outcomes they were believed to have, and in 2005, a definitive study disproving the supposed benefits of episiotomies led to a dramatic drop. Hospitals and ob-gyn departments respond quite well to empirical evidence, even if they do not respond as well as one would like to women’s own testimony.
    Demographic changes in the field also make the natural childbirth movement’s narrative of male doctors exploiting female bodies—or, as the subtitle of Yarrow’s book puts it, “The Insidious Power of Men Over Motherhood”—not quite as straightforward as its advocates insist. Throughout Birth Control, Yarrow uses the word “men” as a stand-in for “doctors,” a move meant to contrast the so-called masculine empiricism of medicine with the supposedly feminine realms of intuition, tradition, and superstition that are favored by the natural childbirth movement. It’s a rhetorical move that obfuscates reality in more ways than one. For starters, the obstetrics field is now dominated by women. Perhaps no field of medicine has been transformed so quickly and completely in its gender composition: In 1970, just 7 percent of gynecologists were women; in 2018, 59 percent were. The field is likely to become even more female in the future. According to a 2015 report by the Association of American Medical Colleges, about 85 percent of obstetrics residents are women, a trend that is due in no small part to patient demand: Women tend to prefer female obstetricians and increasingly have the power to request them.

    This brings us to the most troubling suggestion made by the natural childbirth movement: that giving birth is what women are for—their bodily destiny, their logical purpose, and in some sense their highest reason for being. It is here, in its rapturous faith in women’s reproductive role, that the movement begins to sound like the anti-choice zealots whose regressive and sexist ideas about pregnancy and childbirth now carry the force of law. As Yarrow asserts in a chapter called “Childbearing Hips,” women “[need] more stories that acknowledge the truth: we were born to birth.” Although Yarrow is pro-choice, how different is this contention from the one offered by the anti-choice extremist Laura Strietmann, who argued that pregnancy is not really dangerous even for little girls impregnated as the result of rape, because “a woman’s body is designed to carry life”?
    Women are not “designed” objects; they are not mere vessels for the reproduction of humanity or animals marching toward their natural destiny. They are people—thinking, feeling, and intelligent human beings, even while they give birth. The natural childbirth movement is responding to a real concern: the justified distrust of the medical establishment by women and their reasonable discomfort with many of the ways that labor and delivery are—and historically have been—mismanaged and misunderstood. But practitioners like Dick-Read and Gaskin do not alleviate the suffering of women in labor. They simply deny it, burying it under layers of romanticizing naturalization, like so many paisley scarves.

    13 votes
  4. [5]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [4]
      chocobean
      Link Parent
      Sorry for my ignorance but need some help with English: The third "they", as in "they are done by real human beings, women mostly", what does the word "they" refer to? Pregnancy and childbirth?...

      Sorry for my ignorance but need some help with English:

      These are not necessarily bad beliefs—at least, they do not appear ill-intentioned. But they have the unfortunate effect of obscuring what might be the most important aspect of pregnancy and childbirth: that they are done by real human beings—women, mostly—with minds and needs of their own.

      The third "they", as in "they are done by real human beings, women mostly", what does the word "they" refer to?

      Pregnancy and childbirth? That pregnancy and childbirth are mostly done by women, as in, in some cases they are done by trans men?

      Or does they refer to these myths and ideologies, meaning the stories are "done" by people who give birth?

      9 votes
      1. whbboyd
        Link Parent
        That "they" is referring to "pregnancy and childbirth", with the "women, mostly" aside acknowledging the existence of trans men. (I couldn't tell you why the pronouns map in that way, but there's...

        That "they" is referring to "pregnancy and childbirth", with the "women, mostly" aside acknowledging the existence of trans men.

        (I couldn't tell you why the pronouns map in that way, but there's no ambiguity to me.)

        16 votes
      2. [2]
        Sodliddesu
        Link Parent
        This they refers to "pregnancy and childbirth" being the actions that are done. This just references the existence of people with the ability to get pregnant who do not self identify as a woman....

        that they(1) are done by real human beings—women, mostly (2)—with minds and needs of their(3) own.

        1. This they refers to "pregnancy and childbirth" being the actions that are done.

        2. This just references the existence of people with the ability to get pregnant who do not self identify as a woman.

        3. This their references the "real humans."

        Common rule with commas and dashes is that the sentence should be readable without the information contained in them. So that sentence could read

        that [pregnancy and childbirth] are done by real human beings with minds and needs of their own.

        Did that clear it up any?

        5 votes
  5. patience_limited
    (edited )
    Link
    Evolution has not selected women's pelvises particularly well for bearing our large-brained mutant offspring yet. Let anyone who denies the impact of modern medicine read Antonia Fraser's The...

    Evolution has not selected women's pelvises particularly well for bearing our large-brained mutant offspring yet.

    Let anyone who denies the impact of modern medicine read Antonia Fraser's The Weaker Vessel. It's a chronicle of women's lives in England from 1600 - 1700. One of the noteworthy statistics is that 1 in 5 women of the period could expect to die in childbirth, whether attended by a physician or midwife, or giving birth without any skilled aid. About a third of women would suffer debilitating consequences that caused lasting suffering and premature death. It was absurdly common for men to marry multiple times not through divorce, but because they outlived their wives so often.

    It's arguable that women only began to gain parity with men's political power when their life expectancies rose as a result of safe C-sections (antibiotics, anesthesia, and life support) and other technological birthing and aftercare supports.

    6 votes
  6. doingmybest
    Link
    I had one kid in a hospital due to mild complications during labor, and two at home with a midwife. I found unmedicated birth to be painful and difficult but not excruciating or awful. The home...

    I had one kid in a hospital due to mild complications during labor, and two at home with a midwife. I found unmedicated birth to be painful and difficult but not excruciating or awful. The home births were far more to my liking. BUT I live a short drive to a hospital if things went wonky (like with the first). Everyone’s experience is different. I like what the author seems to be getting to: how about dropping the judgement (natural birth movement) and the control (the doctor will take over now, Dear) and let the “birthers” do what seems best to them?

    4 votes
  7. NoblePath
    Link
    I'll just add my anecdote for consideration. Ultimately, my position as father was, whatever makes the kids' mom happy. I'm really grateful she chose a natural birthing process. We were lucky to...

    I'll just add my anecdote for consideration.

    Ultimately, my position as father was, whatever makes the kids' mom happy. I'm really grateful she chose a natural birthing process.

    We were lucky to live in an area with a strong culture of natural childbirth and respect for women, including really incredible female ob and a supportive hospital with a diverse staff and birthing tubs and stools. The diverse staff was really important, as it's kind of a "joke" within the industry (I'm told) that birthing is where burned out, near-retirement nurses go for an easy gig to wind out their days. Our hospital was staffed by nurses and assistants who were very supportive of all the awesomeness that can happen around birth.

    As a result, our kids births were perfect. We were in the tub, I caught my babies, prayed over them. Their mom had a painful, but transformative experience, was well taken care of, and was never more beautiful in the time around their birth. The kids didn't cry, they slept and ate and were just being wonderful. They were, are are, super healthy and resilient despite enduring a pandemic that was much worse than for most their age (they endured a move and a divorce at the same time). I attribute a lot of that to their awesome birth.

    3 votes