23 votes

Balancing self-expression and parents

Apologies if this comes off as rambly or even entitled. Also for the title, didn't quite know what to put there.

So firstly some context. I live in an Asian country where it's normal AND expected to live with your family past 20. Housing is expensive, and you're really only expected to move out once you're married. Also, I'm 21M.

I really enjoy expressing myself with things more traditionally associated with femininity, like makeup, nail polish and fem clothing sometimes (side note, definitely don't think I'm trans).

But as they say, god gives the gayest children to the most homophobic parents. My parents have told me multiple times that if I was gay I'd be kicked out of the house. My dad for some reason follows American politics (and by that I mean right wing grifters) despite having no link whatsoever to America. In fact, I think he'd be hatecrime'd if he went there. So yea I'm inclined to believe their homophobia.

One incident in particular which made me genuinely angry was when I bought something pink and I was sat down and talked to like I commited some crime.

Anyway, that's all just to say how do I keep up this balancing act? I do my nail polish then sneak out the door. Before I come back, I remove it somewhere quiet. I feel like a fugitive, and it's so damn exhausting. I want to express myself. But it's not the end of the world if I don't (I feel somewhat entitled that I'm even asking this when LGBTQ+ people in some places of the world are in actual danger).

If I tell my parents, I don't think they would accept me. And worse, I might get kicked out - they'd probably think I'm gay.

Being kicked out would be terrible. Renting is still prohibitively expensive for me, I'd have to get a full time job and effectively stop my studies. I don't think I'd be able to survive in this country like that, where it's expected for you to have a degree.

Eventually I'd like to move to another country where I'd be more accepted, but that's years down the line and I don't even know where to start with that. Do I just keep my head down and just be satisfied with the status quo?

Thanks for reading, any input would be appreciated.

36 comments

  1. [3]
    ACEmat
    Link
    Imma be blunt with you, if it's between expressing yourself and having a roof over your head, it's really a no brainer until you can live independently. Don't risk sabotaging yourself. I was never...

    Imma be blunt with you, if it's between expressing yourself and having a roof over your head, it's really a no brainer until you can live independently. Don't risk sabotaging yourself.

    I was never allowed long hair when I was younger. Now I live on my own, have long hair anyways, and for a multitude of reasons have not spoken to my father in 10 years.

    50 votes
    1. smores
      Link Parent
      I agree that having a reliable shelter is hard to overvalue, but I want to warn that this isn't necessarily a no-brainer for everyone. We only have a superficial understanding of @immaterial's...

      I agree that having a reliable shelter is hard to overvalue, but I want to warn that this isn't necessarily a no-brainer for everyone. We only have a superficial understanding of @immaterial's situation, and there are absolutely home situations (even ones without, for example, the threat of physical abuse) where "get out ASAP" can be a better, safer choice than staying. 27% of American LGBTQ youth without accepting adults in their lives attempted suicide in 2019.

      To be clear, I am not recommending that anyone who isn't in imminent danger of violence from someone they live with or themselves abandon having a roof over their head. I just want to qualify that this decision might be more complicated for some folks than it seems (even if it's not for @immaterial). You can be unsafe with a roof over your head.

      21 votes
    2. immaterial
      Link Parent
      Absolutely. It's a conclusion I came to my own as well but I was just wondering if anyone else had experience navigating this and what did they do. Thanks for the reply!

      Absolutely. It's a conclusion I came to my own as well but I was just wondering if anyone else had experience navigating this and what did they do. Thanks for the reply!

      5 votes
  2. [12]
    GenuinelyCrooked
    Link
    I sadly have no advice to give about solving the greater issue with your parents, but I can maybe make the situation with the nailpolish less onerous! If you have access to this brand of press on...

    I sadly have no advice to give about solving the greater issue with your parents, but I can maybe make the situation with the nailpolish less onerous! If you have access to this brand of press on nails, you can grab some extra glue sheets, and then you can re-use the nails as long as you don't bend them too much when you take them off. You can pull them off really quickly if you're in a rush, and they're pretty quick and easy to put on. You can also file them and clip them if you want a shorter or less feminine shape. I used to use this brand when I needed to take my nails off for work frequently but didn't want to waste money every time.

    I'm sorry I couldn't help with the actual problem, but maybe this helps for now?

    17 votes
    1. [6]
      immaterial
      Link Parent
      Hahaha this is great! I've known about press-ons but for some reason I didn't really consider them. I'll def look into this, thank you!

      Hahaha this is great! I've known about press-ons but for some reason I didn't really consider them. I'll def look into this, thank you!

      4 votes
      1. [5]
        GenuinelyCrooked
        Link Parent
        I think they have a reputation as looking cheap and tacky or being really flimsy, but they've come a long way in terms of quality and aesthetics. This same brand does magnetic false eyelashes that...

        I think they have a reputation as looking cheap and tacky or being really flimsy, but they've come a long way in terms of quality and aesthetics.

        This same brand does magnetic false eyelashes that are pretty easy to apply. They're supposed to be reusable, but I didn't find that to be the case. You have to be suuuuuuuper careful with them or the magnets come off and they become unusable. I got max 4 wears out of them, and they're not cheap. Good for special occasions, though. I wore them at my wedding.

        Is there anything else that you're having trouble hiding? I wish I could be more help from a relationship angle, but since I can't, maybe I can give you more cosmetic tips?

        5 votes
        1. [4]
          immaterial
          Link Parent
          Wow, thanks! I can probably google this but hey since you're willing, have any tips for eye shadow? Been wanting to get into it too, but it seems super difficult to hide.

          Wow, thanks! I can probably google this but hey since you're willing, have any tips for eye shadow? Been wanting to get into it too, but it seems super difficult to hide.

          4 votes
          1. GenuinelyCrooked
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            There are a lot of shades and styles that look very natural and they might not notice them, but that's not really the point, is it? I'd recommend getting a reusable cotton pad like these (I've...

            There are a lot of shades and styles that look very natural and they might not notice them, but that's not really the point, is it?

            I'd recommend getting a reusable cotton pad like these (I've never used this brand, it's just an example) and an empty make-up compact. Get one that's as air and water tight as you can and saturate the pad with micellar water (you should be able to buy it anywhere that you can buy make-up). It doesn't need to be dripping with it, just damp. With that, it'll take seconds to take off any make-up that you're wearing, and you don't need to rinse your face unless you have really sensitive skin, so you can do it on the bus or in the car on your way home (as long as you aren't driving). You can wash the pad with dish soap to remove the make-up and reuse it as many times as you want. The only part of this that you couldn't hide in a pants pocket or small pouch is the micellar water, and that's gender-neutral skincare. If your parents ask you about it you can just say your normal soap was drying out your skin and it was itchy, so it's healthcare, not beauty related.

            The only thing I've had trouble getting off 100% in seconds with this stuff is eyeliner and mascara, and that might not be a problem depending on how dark your eyelashes are naturally and how observant your parents are. It just leaves a slight dark residue that they probably won't even notice.

            3 votes
          2. [2]
            GenuinelyCrooked
            Link Parent
            For the eyeshadow itself, what sort of looks are you hoping to achieve? How bold are you looking to go? Do you need help hiding the palettes themselves, or do you have a secure stash spot? If you...

            For the eyeshadow itself, what sort of looks are you hoping to achieve? How bold are you looking to go? Do you need help hiding the palettes themselves, or do you have a secure stash spot? If you have one, how big is it?

            1 vote
            1. immaterial
              Link Parent
              I'd want to start with something dark and then maybe onto more colourful stuff. I do have several stash spots, and they're big enough that I'm not really worried. By the way to clarify, for that...

              I'd want to start with something dark and then maybe onto more colourful stuff.

              I do have several stash spots, and they're big enough that I'm not really worried.

              By the way to clarify, for that micellar water trick are you saying to dampen it beforehand and just keep it in there? Like would it remain moist the whole day 😅?

              Thanks!!! Going to do some shopping soon!

              (Also, i feel like this is getting kind of off topic from the original post... would it be more tildes-appropriate to DM or create a new topic?)

              1 vote
    2. [5]
      chocobean
      Link Parent
      what an amazing product!! is there...is there a place where I can learn more femme tricks like this that I never learned growing up?

      what an amazing product!!

      is there...is there a place where I can learn more femme tricks like this that I never learned growing up?

      3 votes
      1. Noox
        Link Parent
        There's r/internetparents for general stuff you were never taught and r/momforaminute if you need some motherly support and advice to go with it :)

        There's r/internetparents for general stuff you were never taught and r/momforaminute if you need some motherly support and advice to go with it :)

        5 votes
  3. [4]
    sparksbet
    Link
    This is a shitty circumstance to be in. I think that stating closeted can work for the short term -- but if you don't give yourself an end date, you're just going to be making yourself miserable...

    This is a shitty circumstance to be in. I think that stating closeted can work for the short term -- but if you don't give yourself an end date, you're just going to be making yourself miserable more or less indefinitely. So my biggest recommendation would be to keep your head down while looking for resources to allow you to move out. Both plan for moving out in the best case scenario (where you move out on your own terms with resources prepared and your parents are still on good terms as you do so) and try your best to prepare a cushion for the fall if your parents find out too soon. Ideally, you'd finish your degree first and then move out once you can afford to rent with your newfound full-time job. But you need to make sure you have a plan for the worst case scenario.

    This includes making sure you have your own copies of important documents and potentially confiding in trusted friends so you have somewhere you can safely couchsurf if worst comes to worst. Look up shelters and resources for queer people in your area (even if it's a longshot where you live, research which places are less likely to be openly hostile to queer folks). You don't want to only start looking for these things after you've been kicked out, if possible. Essentially, you're going to need to take most of the advice people give to people trying to leave their abusers -- because honestly? if your parents would really put you out on the street for being gay, that's pretty much what they are.

    17 votes
    1. chocobean
      Link Parent
      very much this. Make sure you have your own passport, birth certificates, academic records, driving records, part time employment records, tax accounts etc. At the very least have copies of them...

      documents

      very much this. Make sure you have your own passport, birth certificates, academic records, driving records, part time employment records, tax accounts etc. At the very least have copies of them in safe / digital repositories if bridges get burned suddenly. Even if they never come into actual play, knowing you can do without them is a valuable bargaining chip in a potential power struggle. Basically, if they ask you to leave, and you can call their bluff and actually leave, will give you a leg up on them backing down and working out something reasonable with you.

      12 votes
    2. [2]
      immaterial
      Link Parent
      Thank you for this. Forming an exit plan should be something I really get on, I don't see a future with myself in this country anyway. The details are much appreciated. As for calling my parents...

      Thank you for this. Forming an exit plan should be something I really get on, I don't see a future with myself in this country anyway. The details are much appreciated.

      As for calling my parents abusers, I have very mixed feelings about that. I love my mum very much - she's an inspiration to me in many ways. I just believe that she has too much of an "Asian" mindset, something that's maybe too hard to un-learn. Man, I don't know.

      5 votes
      1. sparksbet
        Link Parent
        In the end, it's up to you how you think about your parents in all this. What counts as abusive is a fuzzy line. But I think it's worth acknowledging to yourself that putting your kid on the...

        In the end, it's up to you how you think about your parents in all this. What counts as abusive is a fuzzy line. But I think it's worth acknowledging to yourself that putting your kid on the street for being gay is breaching a fundamental part of being a good parent. I suspect you're under a lot of pressure from both them and society to be a good son. So if you ever feel guilty for that, keep in mind that it's a two-way street.

        5 votes
  4. [8]
    smores
    Link
    I'm so sorry you're in this position. Navigating a relationship as complex and fraught as the one between child and parents is hard enough when you don't live under their roof, but putting in the...

    I'm so sorry you're in this position. Navigating a relationship as complex and fraught as the one between child and parents is hard enough when you don't live under their roof, but putting in the effort every day to hide important parts of who you are, while in a place that should be safe, with people that are meant to be taking care of you... it's exhausting. You're not entitled for wanting that to be different; that others have it worse takes nothing from what you're going through.

    You deserve acceptance.

    I agree with @sparksbet; don't discount that this may be having a real impact on your well-being. If you're truly able to sustain this environment (which would be unbearably stressful to me) without it chipping away at your mental health, that's really outstanding, but I suspect that most folks in this situation would be being worn down moment by moment. That's not a failing on your part; that's what environments like this do to people. And if that is what you're experiencing, then it's important to find tools, resources, and community to support you while you're stuck here, and help plan for a path out.

    There are places in the world where being identified as gay is dangerous because someone may physically attack you with the intent to harm or kill you. There are also places where it's dangerous because society will shun, coerce, and degrade you. Those places are still dangerous. Parents that would kick their children out of the house for being gay cause real harm. Sometimes that harm is irreparable.

    Eventually I'd like to move to another country where I'd be more accepted, but that's years down the line and I don't even know where to start with that

    A few questions about this:

    • Do you have local community that could support you where you are? Moving internationally can be very hard, but it can of course also be very worth it. If you have a local community, they could help you find ways to feel safe and accepted without needing to move, but maybe they could also help you move?
    • Why is this years down the line?
    • Can I (or someone else here) help you figure out where to start?
    13 votes
    1. [2]
      sparksbet
      Link Parent
      re: the international move, I assumed it would be years down the line because OP is still in university. Immigrating to most countries without a degree is pretty hard, so I think that's not a bad...

      re: the international move, I assumed it would be years down the line because OP is still in university. Immigrating to most countries without a degree is pretty hard, so I think that's not a bad place to focus -- especially since getting into a grad school program is one of the easier ways to immigrate many places and one I'd recommend OP explores if it's possible for them.

      10 votes
    2. [5]
      immaterial
      Link Parent
      Well as sparksbet mentioned, I feel like I'd need to get my degree first. There are local LGBTQ+ communities, and I have attended some events. I don't really have queer friends, but there are...

      Well as sparksbet mentioned, I feel like I'd need to get my degree first. There are local LGBTQ+ communities, and I have attended some events. I don't really have queer friends, but there are queer people I know through work and the like.

      But, ultimately, I just don't feel accepted in this society. To get government-subsidised housing in this country, you need to be married, and same-sex marriage is not recognized. If not, you need to wait till you're 35 years old. That's just not an option.

      And wow, thank you so much for offering to help me. I could use some help, yes. I've been partial about Canada, because that's somewhere my family was thinking of moving to before that plan fell apart for other reasons. But the thought of actually moving terrifies me as well. I've lived in the same house my whole life. Moving to somewhere with no friends, family, or anyone I know seems daunting. I don't know how I'm actually going to do that.

      Thank you so much for your input and questions. It got me thinking of things I should be thinking about.

      4 votes
      1. [2]
        sparksbet
        Link Parent
        Your description makes me suspect I know which country you're in, and that definitely makes your rent situation much clearer to me. While my background is very different, I can very much empathize...

        Your description makes me suspect I know which country you're in, and that definitely makes your rent situation much clearer to me. While my background is very different, I can very much empathize with the difficulty in choosing to leave a very conservative, unsupportive environment vs. moving somewhere new with no support. Moving somewhere where you don't already have connections is really hard.

        I definitely recommend increasing your network of queer friends, not only for the sake of your social life but also because other queer folks may have tips and tricks for how to live comfortably under your country's current laws. This can, at the same time, give you a stronger sense of whether remaining in your current home country is something you could see yourself doing long-term.

        If my guess at your home country is correct, your passport has pretty good visa-free access to quite a few countries. This will absolutely make moving abroad a lot easier for you once you decide to make that move. I can do my best to help and give advice if you do reach that step, especially if you end up immigrating to somewhere in Europe.

        4 votes
        1. immaterial
          Link Parent
          Thanks for offering to help, I truly appreciate it. I know I really should make more queer friends, but oof, I find it pretty hard to make new friends. But I know ultimately i've got to step out...

          Thanks for offering to help, I truly appreciate it.

          I know I really should make more queer friends, but oof, I find it pretty hard to make new friends. But I know ultimately i've got to step out of my comfort zone and do it. Thanks

          2 votes
      2. [2]
        smores
        Link Parent
        I hope it didn’t come across like I was challenging your desire to move; those are all very good and valid reasons to do that. I think @sparksbet made a great point: one of the best ways to move...

        I hope it didn’t come across like I was challenging your desire to move; those are all very good and valid reasons to do that.

        I think @sparksbet made a great point: one of the best ways to move countries is through grad school. The great thing about grad programs, at least PhD programs if that’s an option for you, is that they’re almost always free, even in completely backwards educational systems like the US, usually with some sort of living stipend. Masters programs in much of Europe are also free; my wife (American) did a Masters program in Lübeck, Germany for free after she finished her undergrad. Do you think grad school might be an option for you?

        Moving somewhere new, even within the same country, can absolutely be terrifying. I’ve moved cities and states within the US several times, and resetting is hard each time. That’s an additional benefit to a grad program; there’s a built in social network to latch on to.

        1 vote
        1. immaterial
          Link Parent
          I'm not sure if grad school might be for me, but I'll definitely think about it. Thanks.

          I'm not sure if grad school might be for me, but I'll definitely think about it. Thanks.

  5. [2]
    chocobean
    Link
    Hello~ I'm also Asian, and from a particularly patriarchal sub-culture within that as well. Those years when I needed to bide my time were hard, and I didn't have as much to deal with as you. (It...

    Hello~ I'm also Asian, and from a particularly patriarchal sub-culture within that as well. Those years when I needed to bide my time were hard, and I didn't have as much to deal with as you. (It was 90% about being able to leave the house whenever I wanted, and 10% being able to maintain male friendships.)

    Others have given good tips. Maybe track your own mental health using a self report survey or something, and pull it back out every half a year or so and re-evaluate. Continue to find accepting people and safe spaces.

    Here are some tricks myself and others have employed to hopefully alleviate some of the inner struggles until you can get free.

    1. documentation. As above. If they usually do your taxes or other paperwork, pay attention, ask their hired professional questions, and take an interest in "grown up stuff". Find out about their wealth/investments/debts/mortgages and be an active participant. Not only does this earn you "wow so grown up" points, it also sets you up to be independent faster; hit the ground running.

    2. If we were living "independently", we might still have roommates who ask us to keep quiet hours or not use certain scents or not cook certain foods. Landlords still won't let us paint the walls or hang certain things. Work might stop us from wearing rings or having long hair etc. Being an adult has a lot of restrictions as well, and you'll be spending many a years earning your way to a stable affordable freedom. Hang in there, it's hard but it's not uniquely terrible.

    3. They have no incentive to speak with you and reason with you as equals until they can get it through their thick skulls that you are actually equals, so while you're there as a dependent you'd be wasting your breath from the get-go, and not because your arguments weren't sound or because you lost your cool or you got them on a bad day or anything you could have done. Inherently they won't listen because you still see a 5 year old in their eyes.

    4. parents operate on 'peace of mind' and are primarily motivated by fear, instead of potential for rewards -- toot your own horn a lot when you have "good son" news to share. You're your own one man PR company. The more they feel like you're growing up like they wanted you to be, the more their fears will be assuaged and the more they'll loosen their grip.

    5. speaking of fear, they have no incentive to learn about self expression, LBGT, self actualization or any of that. They just have a ton of fear. Any time in the news they see "gender conflict" or whatever, they have no interest in learning who's right who's wrong what's the nuance of the situation. They want you away from being any part of any subculture that gets talked about on the news. If you have girl - friends who are comfortable, tell them you're hanging out with girls a lot but feel free to always insist they're just friends. Let them form their own comfortable cozy misconceptions, to your advantage.

    6. save money save money save money. I know one can't be a miserable miser, but money is your exp until you level up enough to leave. Buy yourself good nutritious lunches, but maybe hold off on the monthly Omakase night.

    7. Long shot: low probability but extremely rewarding: If your parents have the means, slip subtle mentions of housing market going up, how renting is just money thrown away, how brides are attracted to guys with houses, tell them you're saving money for a downpayment, tell them you're interested in interest rate drops and first time home buyer incentives and all that kinda stuff. They might just even finance your freedom.

    12 votes
    1. immaterial
      Link Parent
      I agree with a lot of your points, thank you. As for 6, I don't think my family is in a position to do that haha. Thanks for showing concern for my mental health. I generally think I'm quite a...

      I agree with a lot of your points, thank you. As for 6, I don't think my family is in a position to do that haha.

      Thanks for showing concern for my mental health. I generally think I'm quite a stoic guy (not in the toxic-male kind of sense), and that I can roll with the punches quite well. So I think I'm ok.

      Much appreciate your response.

      2 votes
  6. [2]
    DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    There are always people in physical danger all over the world and any given time. Your mental health is valid. Your need to express yourself is valid. Your identity is valid even if you have to...

    I feel somewhat entitled that I'm even asking this when LGBTQ+ people in some places of the world are in actual danger).

    There are always people in physical danger all over the world and any given time. Your mental health is valid. Your need to express yourself is valid. Your identity is valid even if you have to hide it. Even if you never told another soul.

    Make sure your online accounts are secure and everyone else gave you good long term advice.

    And if you need a queer aunt in the US, (not particularly femme so not helpful there), just say the word.

    11 votes
    1. immaterial
      Link Parent
      Aww my god your last sentence broke me. Thank you so so much. The fact that you'd show that kindness to a random stranger online tells me you're an awesome person.

      Aww my god your last sentence broke me.

      Thank you so so much. The fact that you'd show that kindness to a random stranger online tells me you're an awesome person.

      5 votes
  7. [2]
    PossiblyBipedal
    Link
    You're not entitled at all. Other people suffering in other places doesn't automatically make your situation go away. I don't know how to give you advice even though I lived through a very similar...

    You're not entitled at all. Other people suffering in other places doesn't automatically make your situation go away.

    I don't know how to give you advice even though I lived through a very similar life.

    What I ended up doing was having a separate outdoor life and indoor life. I joined a community of people who were similar to me and could be myself as long as I was out the door. I also had little trinkets that had meaning to me and maybe to others that I knew my parents wouldn't understand.

    I say that as if it was easy. I had a lot to hide and got paranoid quite a fair bit. I got into arguments with my parents without straight up revealing myself.

    My parents once asked if I was gay and I evaded that with weird dumb answers I was well known for.

    Once I was no longer in school, I was barely home and spent a lot of time outside either in the office working or hanging out with friends.

    At the time, I didn't think of it as a hard life at all. It was the only thing I knew. It was just life.

    But after I got out of the situation, suddenly my life was so easy and I had no idea it could have been this way the whole time.

    I'm sorry. I have zero advice. I just wanted to let you know people can relate. I think I know which country you might live in. I'll DM to ask. You don't have to answer if you're uncomfortable with it.

    We might be able to chat about what's possible. Living situation wise.

    6 votes
    1. immaterial
      Link Parent
      Don't be sorry at all! Your comment really resonated with me. The things you say are things I relate to so much. Especially paranoia.

      Don't be sorry at all! Your comment really resonated with me. The things you say are things I relate to so much. Especially paranoia.

      3 votes
  8. NomadicCoder
    Link
    Do not feel guilty for advocating for yourself — there’s always somebody who had it worse, doesn’t change your experience nor how it affects you; you deserve to seek improvement of your lived...

    I feel somewhat entitled that I'm even asking this when LGBTQ+ people in some places of the world are in actual danger

    Do not feel guilty for advocating for yourself — there’s always somebody who had it worse, doesn’t change your experience nor how it affects you; you deserve to seek improvement of your lived experience as much as anybody.

    5 votes
  9. [2]
    snake_case
    Link
    Could you do things that your parents consider manly, such that they’ll ignore the nail polish because you’re so manly in other ways? Maybe get into a manly sport or something? Good exercise for...

    Could you do things that your parents consider manly, such that they’ll ignore the nail polish because you’re so manly in other ways?

    Maybe get into a manly sport or something? Good exercise for your body and please the parents.

    2 votes
    1. immaterial
      Link Parent
      Haha good idea but I'm not sure it'll work. I'm scared of the confrontation anyway.

      Haha good idea but I'm not sure it'll work. I'm scared of the confrontation anyway.

      1 vote