So while the question includes anything labeled a table or chair, I'm curious: what are people's thoughts on the actual furniture versions? I feel like it could go either way, as there are so many...
So while the question includes anything labeled a table or chair, I'm curious: what are people's thoughts on the actual furniture versions?
I feel like it could go either way, as there are so many standalone tables and chairs. I think I'd put my money on chairs, mainly because they get a boost since they often come in sets, and there are many surfaces that can be used as a substitute table (e.g. counters, boxes, desks, short shelves, pedestals, etc.).
If one limits 'table' and 'chair' to furniture designed specifically for that purpose, I think chair must be correct. It's very common to have multiple chairs to go with a single table. It's also...
If one limits 'table' and 'chair' to furniture designed specifically for that purpose, I think chair must be correct.
It's very common to have multiple chairs to go with a single table.
It's also not uncommon to have stand alone chairs (rocking chairs, dental chairs, benches, etc).
It's quite uncommon to have a stand alone table. The only examples which comes to mind are end tables (the small tables you put a lamp or vase on) and the tables at cocktail parties for people to stand around.
It's nearly unheard of to have multiple tables to go with a single chair.
Having just moved, I can confirm there can be many more standalone endtables than you'd expect. For instance, my mom had two in her bedroom for either side of her bed. There's also a matching set...
Having just moved, I can confirm there can be many more standalone endtables than you'd expect. For instance, my mom had two in her bedroom for either side of her bed. There's also a matching set of two small end tables on our porch (with a third in the garage) and four more end tables with no matching set peices, and then one of those folding wooden tables/TV trays...
Yeah there's seven tables on the porch, versus three chairs. The move has made me aware there are a lot more tables than I realized, in part because we're trying to figure out what to do with some of them.
I still think chairs will win in the overall picture, but it's closer than I would've thought pre-move.
Both of these comments and I still haven’t seen a coffee table mentioned? I mean, I still think chairs would win. And sure, my living room has two end tables and only one coffee table (and...
Both of these comments and I still haven’t seen a coffee table mentioned?
I mean, I still think chairs would win. And sure, my living room has two end tables and only one coffee table (and technically zero, one, or two chairs depending on how you’d count a sofa).
My thinking was that a coffee table would normally go with at least one sofa, but I agree it is debatable whether a sofa is a 'chair'. The meaning of 'furniture designed to be used as a chair'...
My thinking was that a coffee table would normally go with at least one sofa, but I agree it is debatable whether a sofa is a 'chair'.
The meaning of 'furniture designed to be used as a chair' actually has a ton of debatable cases that I omitted to keep the post easy to read - e.g.
The original question excluded benches and desks, so I'd say sofas, couches, loveseats and the like don't count. I'd also personally count thrones because those are chairs, just very fancy and for...
The original question excluded benches and desks, so I'd say sofas, couches, loveseats and the like don't count. I'd also personally count thrones because those are chairs, just very fancy and for super special occasions.
It's when you get to those really artsy seating that the definition really ends up in the air... Like this chair that I found on Target's site. I swear I've seen some pretty modern art-style chairs in public settings too.
You just reminded me that I used to own a throne and I am sad it's gone. There was some big promotional event thrown by a liquor company that involved models and a throne and somehow I ended up...
You just reminded me that I used to own a throne and I am sad it's gone.
There was some big promotional event thrown by a liquor company that involved models and a throne and somehow I ended up with said throne.
I think the real question underlying that is "Is a thing its designed purpose or its use? " Are those non-tables being used as tables now actually tables? Is a stool a chair? Or is only a chair a...
I think the real question underlying that is "Is a thing its designed purpose or its use? "
Are those non-tables being used as tables now actually tables? Is a stool a chair? Or is only a chair a chair?
I took a whole-ass college course on such questions (semantics) and it is fascinating. Entire class periods of 25 people animatedly debating where exactly those lines get drawn and why, where the...
I took a whole-ass college course on such questions (semantics) and it is fascinating. Entire class periods of 25 people animatedly debating where exactly those lines get drawn and why, where the exceptions are and when those exceptions are significant enough to move the line.... I absolutely loved it. Cups vs bowls was a particularly good one, with anyone who could spare the time staying late to continue debating.
It's the fun part of "is a hot dog a sandwich" for me, while I acknowledge there's just as much of a level of obnoxiousness there. But when you're intending to explore those concepts it's super...
It's the fun part of "is a hot dog a sandwich" for me, while I acknowledge there's just as much of a level of obnoxiousness there. But when you're intending to explore those concepts it's super cool to me.
Realizing that things only mean what we say they do, because we say they do, is a fun moment - but I do think it needs tempered with a dose of "things that are socially constructed can also be real, even if they're made up"
I like those thoughts. I wish I'd gotten a semantics class! That sounds so fun.
of course, one of what I hope was the points of that exercise was realizing that in human language, we clearly don't operate off of rigorously defined "definitions" underlyingly in most contexts....
of course, one of what I hope was the points of that exercise was realizing that in human language, we clearly don't operate off of rigorously defined "definitions" underlyingly in most contexts. but no better way to illustrate that the boundaries are fuzzy than arguing about them!
Your cup vs bowl example reminds me of how I once had an ongoing discussion with a bunch of my classmates in my master's program about whether a drinking vessel made of glass with a handle was a mug or a glass. The judgments definitely seemed to differ between native English speakers and native German speakers!
(I studied semantics as my main focus when I did linguistics, but the portion where you stop caring about the individual definitions of words and care more about the meanings of grammatical structures and how words are combined. The type of semantics where you care about individual word meanings actually has its own name to distinguish them! It's called "lexical semantics.")
I agree. I would basically flip a coin if we were limited to those tables and chairs. I lean chairs just because lots of tables have multiple chairs (dining tables); and plenty of standalone...
I agree. I would basically flip a coin if we were limited to those tables and chairs. I lean chairs just because lots of tables have multiple chairs (dining tables); and plenty of standalone chairs and standalone tables. But that's strictly a guess.
If we include LEGO and Hot Wheels wheels (which I think you can), then you need to also include LEGO and Hot Wheels doors. Granted, LEGO is literally the world's largest tire manufacturer (by...
If we include LEGO and Hot Wheels wheels (which I think you can), then you need to also include LEGO and Hot Wheels doors.
Granted, LEGO is literally the world's largest tire manufacturer (by numbers), but they make a lot of doors too.
Does a door count if it doesn’t open? Is a picture of a door a door? Unless hot wheels got a lot better since I was a kid, none of them have doors that could open.
Does a door count if it doesn’t open? Is a picture of a door a door? Unless hot wheels got a lot better since I was a kid, none of them have doors that could open.
I mean most cars usually have the a similar number of doors and wheels. So we can basically disregard those. Then there are loads of doors in buildings and other structures, but I think not every...
I mean most cars usually have the a similar number of doors and wheels. So we can basically disregard those. Then there are loads of doors in buildings and other structures, but I think not every building can be matched with enough vehicles with wheels excluding cars to compensate for all of its doors. Other types of doors/wheels are most likely peanuts compared to the number of vehicles and buildings on this planet. So my bet is more doors.
How loosely are we defining the words? Because I'm thinking of water wheels, those colorful spinny wheels like on Wheel of Fortune, steering wheels in cars... There are many wheels that aren't...
How loosely are we defining the words? Because I'm thinking of water wheels, those colorful spinny wheels like on Wheel of Fortune, steering wheels in cars... There are many wheels that aren't used for vehicles or locomotion.
For context, manifold is a fake money betting site. Typically people will bet on things like “who will be the next pope?” or “what will be the price of bitcoin on may 29th?” But, sometimes you get...
For context, manifold is a fake money betting site. Typically people will bet on things like “who will be the next pope?” or “what will be the price of bitcoin on may 29th?” But, sometimes you get a market that’s all about convincing the creator. The discussion here is fun as people come up with various things that might qualify as chairs and tables.
Too bad they require a Google account to sign up, seems pretty cool. (Leaving a comment partly to remind myself to check back later in case they change it.)
Too bad they require a Google account to sign up, seems pretty cool. (Leaving a comment partly to remind myself to check back later in case they change it.)
Since tables on computers count, considering how many websites used tables for so many years for layout and how many such sites still do exist… I think it would be tables for the win. The biggest...
Since tables on computers count, considering how many websites used tables for so many years for layout and how many such sites still do exist… I think it would be tables for the win. The biggest class of "chair" I could think of outside the sitting-thing is the chair of a committee or similar. I think internet/computer tables (Excel should count, too, and how many spreadsheets are out there?) would far outweigh, and that's my deciding factor.
I think he made a mistake in allowing digital tables. I think that necessarily there will be far more tables than chairs. The longest mathematical proof is a relatively brief paper followed by a...
I think he made a mistake in allowing digital tables. I think that necessarily there will be far more tables than chairs. The longest mathematical proof is a relatively brief paper followed by a 200Tb file that is almost entirely various tables pertaining to the classification of finite simple groups. There are an unimaginably large number of tables in the file.
Not necessarily: Though there will still be countless digital tables even with that restriction. They're a fairly basic formatting feature, pretty sure I saw even old forums allow them via BBCode....
Not necessarily:
Update 2025-05-09 (PST) (AI summary of creator comment): The creator has provided provisional guidance on how digital tables will be counted:
For now, the intention is to count one digital file as one table (e.g., a single spreadsheet file would count as one table, regardless of how many distinct tables it might contain).
This approach is subject to a poll that the creator will conduct to determine the final counting method for such items.
Though there will still be countless digital tables even with that restriction. They're a fairly basic formatting feature, pretty sure I saw even old forums allow them via BBCode.
I read that ruling, but I think that still, in just the project I mentioned, the number of tables would eclipse the number of chairs, maybe by hundreds of orders of magnitude, mostly because those...
I read that ruling, but I think that still, in just the project I mentioned, the number of tables would eclipse the number of chairs, maybe by hundreds of orders of magnitude, mostly because those tables are not only kept in that single file; they were generated in many files then included into the proof in a singular file for the publication claim, but they exist as files in a number of different ways. And that's just one large scale mathematical project that relies on tables; there are many others. The number of tables that supercomputers have on any particular day is so much larger than the number of chairs, unless someone can come up with a workaround for chairs. Like @daychilde, I can't come up with something better.
Reading through the comments they now count cyclohexane chair conformations as chairs, counting them as 10^33 chairs (even if the comment that convinced them indicates it should be at least...
Reading through the comments they now count cyclohexane chair conformations as chairs, counting them as 10^33 chairs (even if the comment that convinced them indicates it should be at least 10^39?).
Some quick googling indicates total computer storage in the world is in the zettabyte range, so less than 10^24 bytes. Even if every single bit was a table, that estimate would need to be off by at least 8 orders of magnitude for digital tables to contest it.
The only way out I see is to overturn the ruling that digital tables are limited to one-per-file, and that probably still isn't enough. But, if you overturn that some big tables get really...
The only way out I see is to overturn the ruling that digital tables are limited to one-per-file, and that probably still isn't enough. But, if you overturn that some big tables get really interesting if you're willing to call every permutation of or in a table it's own table. A "how many rectangles can you find?" on a 100x100 table is pretty big. Technically I think you can even overlap them by having tables of tables (ex. a 4x4 table also happens to be a 2x2 table of 2x2 tables). Maybe not useful tables, but against those kinds of numbers I'd be willing to take anything that looks like a table.
And then from there the next step is to say that every digital image is just a table of colors, making every subset of the image it's own table too. If every frame of every video is an absurd number of tables maybe there's something there. Although probably not because 10^33 is pretty big.
Going off the statistic of "360 hours of video being uploaded to youtube every minute" I'm assuming every video as 30fps and counting each frame as a table (Completely ignoring B and P frames),...
Going off the statistic of "360 hours of video being uploaded to youtube every minute"
I'm assuming every video as 30fps and counting each frame as a table (Completely ignoring B and P frames), and taking 6 different resolutions per video,
There's nearly 336 Billion tables being uploaded to youtube in one day alone.
But it still takes more than 400 Million years for it to come close to chairs with youtube alone.
The way sql databases work make for an insane amount of tables using this ruling. Postgres stores a separate file per table and index, and splits them into 1gb chunks. So a modest Postgres...
The way sql databases work make for an insane amount of tables using this ruling. Postgres stores a separate file per table and index, and splits them into 1gb chunks. So a modest Postgres database will have thousands of « tables ».
If we count digital tables, then it’s tables. If we count only physical chairs and physical tables (like the thing that usually goes with chairs), then I believe there are more standalone chairs...
If we count digital tables, then it’s tables.
If we count only physical chairs and physical tables (like the thing that usually goes with chairs), then I believe there are more standalone chairs than standalone tables.
In Asia sometimes we have HUGE gatherings in a basketball court where you only have those stackable white plastic chairs.
So while the question includes anything labeled a table or chair, I'm curious: what are people's thoughts on the actual furniture versions?
I feel like it could go either way, as there are so many standalone tables and chairs. I think I'd put my money on chairs, mainly because they get a boost since they often come in sets, and there are many surfaces that can be used as a substitute table (e.g. counters, boxes, desks, short shelves, pedestals, etc.).
If one limits 'table' and 'chair' to furniture designed specifically for that purpose, I think chair must be correct.
It's very common to have multiple chairs to go with a single table.
It's also not uncommon to have stand alone chairs (rocking chairs, dental chairs, benches, etc).
It's quite uncommon to have a stand alone table. The only examples which comes to mind are end tables (the small tables you put a lamp or vase on) and the tables at cocktail parties for people to stand around.
It's nearly unheard of to have multiple tables to go with a single chair.
Having just moved, I can confirm there can be many more standalone endtables than you'd expect. For instance, my mom had two in her bedroom for either side of her bed. There's also a matching set of two small end tables on our porch (with a third in the garage) and four more end tables with no matching set peices, and then one of those folding wooden tables/TV trays...
Yeah there's seven tables on the porch, versus three chairs. The move has made me aware there are a lot more tables than I realized, in part because we're trying to figure out what to do with some of them.
I still think chairs will win in the overall picture, but it's closer than I would've thought pre-move.
Both of these comments and I still haven’t seen a coffee table mentioned?
I mean, I still think chairs would win. And sure, my living room has two end tables and only one coffee table (and technically zero, one, or two chairs depending on how you’d count a sofa).
My thinking was that a coffee table would normally go with at least one sofa, but I agree it is debatable whether a sofa is a 'chair'.
The meaning of 'furniture designed to be used as a chair' actually has a ton of debatable cases that I omitted to keep the post easy to read - e.g.
Fixed bar stool
Throne used only for ceremonial occasions
Baby car seat
The original question excluded benches and desks, so I'd say sofas, couches, loveseats and the like don't count. I'd also personally count thrones because those are chairs, just very fancy and for super special occasions.
It's when you get to those really artsy seating that the definition really ends up in the air... Like this chair that I found on Target's site. I swear I've seen some pretty modern art-style chairs in public settings too.
You just reminded me that I used to own a throne and I am sad it's gone.
Theaters bb
Cars and public transportation and airplanes, for that matter. heh
I think the real question underlying that is "Is a thing its designed purpose or its use? "
Are those non-tables being used as tables now actually tables? Is a stool a chair? Or is only a chair a chair?
I took a whole-ass college course on such questions (semantics) and it is fascinating. Entire class periods of 25 people animatedly debating where exactly those lines get drawn and why, where the exceptions are and when those exceptions are significant enough to move the line.... I absolutely loved it. Cups vs bowls was a particularly good one, with anyone who could spare the time staying late to continue debating.
It's the fun part of "is a hot dog a sandwich" for me, while I acknowledge there's just as much of a level of obnoxiousness there. But when you're intending to explore those concepts it's super cool to me.
Realizing that things only mean what we say they do, because we say they do, is a fun moment - but I do think it needs tempered with a dose of "things that are socially constructed can also be real, even if they're made up"
I like those thoughts. I wish I'd gotten a semantics class! That sounds so fun.
of course, one of what I hope was the points of that exercise was realizing that in human language, we clearly don't operate off of rigorously defined "definitions" underlyingly in most contexts. but no better way to illustrate that the boundaries are fuzzy than arguing about them!
Your cup vs bowl example reminds me of how I once had an ongoing discussion with a bunch of my classmates in my master's program about whether a drinking vessel made of glass with a handle was a mug or a glass. The judgments definitely seemed to differ between native English speakers and native German speakers!
(I studied semantics as my main focus when I did linguistics, but the portion where you stop caring about the individual definitions of words and care more about the meanings of grammatical structures and how words are combined. The type of semantics where you care about individual word meanings actually has its own name to distinguish them! It's called "lexical semantics.")
Mug! It's a mug! (Is that the common American/English speaking view?)
It has been so far! The Germans were pretty consistently saying it was a glass.
I agree. I would basically flip a coin if we were limited to those tables and chairs. I lean chairs just because lots of tables have multiple chairs (dining tables); and plenty of standalone chairs and standalone tables. But that's strictly a guess.
This seems in line with a similar question I've seen made - are there more wheels in the world, or are there more doors?
Does Jim Morrison still count if he's dead?
Can we include LEGO and Hot Wheels wheels?
6 bln Hot Wheels out there, and LEGO produce ~300 mln wheels each year.
If we include LEGO and Hot Wheels wheels (which I think you can), then you need to also include LEGO and Hot Wheels doors.
Granted, LEGO is literally the world's largest tire manufacturer (by numbers), but they make a lot of doors too.
Does a door count if it doesn’t open? Is a picture of a door a door? Unless hot wheels got a lot better since I was a kid, none of them have doors that could open.
Some (not all) Hot Wheels have doors. Most of them stink.
Matchbox was always better. And even better was some French company whose name escapes me that made semi trucks. Ahhhh, I still wish I had those. lol
I mean most cars usually have the a similar number of doors and wheels. So we can basically disregard those. Then there are loads of doors in buildings and other structures, but I think not every building can be matched with enough vehicles with wheels excluding cars to compensate for all of its doors. Other types of doors/wheels are most likely peanuts compared to the number of vehicles and buildings on this planet. So my bet is more doors.
How loosely are we defining the words? Because I'm thinking of water wheels, those colorful spinny wheels like on Wheel of Fortune, steering wheels in cars... There are many wheels that aren't used for vehicles or locomotion.
For context, manifold is a fake money betting site. Typically people will bet on things like “who will be the next pope?” or “what will be the price of bitcoin on may 29th?” But, sometimes you get a market that’s all about convincing the creator. The discussion here is fun as people come up with various things that might qualify as chairs and tables.
Too bad they require a Google account to sign up, seems pretty cool. (Leaving a comment partly to remind myself to check back later in case they change it.)
Since tables on computers count, considering how many websites used tables for so many years for layout and how many such sites still do exist… I think it would be tables for the win. The biggest class of "chair" I could think of outside the sitting-thing is the chair of a committee or similar. I think internet/computer tables (Excel should count, too, and how many spreadsheets are out there?) would far outweigh, and that's my deciding factor.
I think he made a mistake in allowing digital tables. I think that necessarily there will be far more tables than chairs. The longest mathematical proof is a relatively brief paper followed by a 200Tb file that is almost entirely various tables pertaining to the classification of finite simple groups. There are an unimaginably large number of tables in the file.
Not necessarily:
Though there will still be countless digital tables even with that restriction. They're a fairly basic formatting feature, pretty sure I saw even old forums allow them via BBCode.
Yeah, allowing digital tables was a mistake.
I read that ruling, but I think that still, in just the project I mentioned, the number of tables would eclipse the number of chairs, maybe by hundreds of orders of magnitude, mostly because those tables are not only kept in that single file; they were generated in many files then included into the proof in a singular file for the publication claim, but they exist as files in a number of different ways. And that's just one large scale mathematical project that relies on tables; there are many others. The number of tables that supercomputers have on any particular day is so much larger than the number of chairs, unless someone can come up with a workaround for chairs. Like @daychilde, I can't come up with something better.
Reading through the comments they now count cyclohexane chair conformations as chairs, counting them as 10^33 chairs (even if the comment that convinced them indicates it should be at least 10^39?).
Some quick googling indicates total computer storage in the world is in the zettabyte range, so less than 10^24 bytes. Even if every single bit was a table, that estimate would need to be off by at least 8 orders of magnitude for digital tables to contest it.
The cyclohexane chair ruling is bullshit based on the fact that it's absolutely devastating to my case.
The only way out I see is to overturn the ruling that digital tables are limited to one-per-file, and that probably still isn't enough. But, if you overturn that some big tables get really interesting if you're willing to call every permutation of or in a table it's own table. A "how many rectangles can you find?" on a 100x100 table is pretty big. Technically I think you can even overlap them by having tables of tables (ex. a 4x4 table also happens to be a 2x2 table of 2x2 tables). Maybe not useful tables, but against those kinds of numbers I'd be willing to take anything that looks like a table.
And then from there the next step is to say that every digital image is just a table of colors, making every subset of the image it's own table too. If every frame of every video is an absurd number of tables maybe there's something there. Although probably not because 10^33 is pretty big.
Going off the statistic of "360 hours of video being uploaded to youtube every minute"
I'm assuming every video as 30fps and counting each frame as a table (Completely ignoring B and P frames), and taking 6 different resolutions per video,
There's nearly 336 Billion tables being uploaded to youtube in one day alone.
But it still takes more than 400 Million years for it to come close to chairs with youtube alone.
The way sql databases work make for an insane amount of tables using this ruling. Postgres stores a separate file per table and index, and splits them into 1gb chunks. So a modest Postgres database will have thousands of « tables ».
SQL databases also contain tables.
If we count digital tables, then it’s tables.
If we count only physical chairs and physical tables (like the thing that usually goes with chairs), then I believe there are more standalone chairs than standalone tables.
In Asia sometimes we have HUGE gatherings in a basketball court where you only have those stackable white plastic chairs.