By calling it an "affair" I don't think the writer ever really came to terms with it as a consensual non-monogamous relationship. It feels more like thought they should be ok with it rather than...
Exemplary
By calling it an "affair" I don't think the writer ever really came to terms with it as a consensual non-monogamous relationship. It feels more like thought they should be ok with it rather than looking at alternative sexual opportunities that they were both actually comfortable with.
They described it as ending due to the emotional load on both of them, that's often true, especially if both partners don't naturally feel comfortable with non-monogamy. I don't agree with the Ethicist necessarily framing it as the wife acquiescing to her spouse's emotions. That isn't what's written. And I don't agree with "console her because she realized your feelings matter eventually."
My advice, which I think is ethical, is be honest about your feelings, admitting to your relief and how you actually felt about the relationship while also having the empathy to care that your wife is hurting simply because she's hurting. Not wanting to console her because she is hurting because of a breakup with someone else means you a) should never have consented to this, b) you almost certainly weren't being honest with her or yourself about this throughout, and c) you're being kind of childish about it now because you covered up your feelings and she isn't giving the same in return. (This is pretty normal, it's still not very mature.)
Those are things to work through together and probably with a professionals help so...
Couples therapy for you both, individual therapy for you and don't agree to things you're not ok with. Be honest with each other.
Bonus Advice for Wife:
I'm going to make an assumption or two. You already fell for someone and decided to have the "affair" before asking and trying to make it consensual. You didn't consider how you'd handle the New Relationship Energy - because you were already in it - nor how you'd handle a breakup - because you were not thinking with your brain. I'm also guessing you didn't tell your friends about this so you don't have anyone else to talk to. So you turn to your spouse because that's the thing married couples do.
This is the worst way to approach/attempt ethical non-monogamy. Be honest with your spouse and see a therapist so you can avoid further pressing on their boundaries. Rather than consolation where both of your energies should go to is in rebuilding (or dismantling) your relationship, with grief as a part of that. Because you went about this in a way guaranteed to hurt your spouse and all but guaranteed to hurt you. And it did. You stubbed your own toe, and you can be hurt and take space to work through that but you're just confirming to your spouse that they're the "backup" right now. This isn't unusual as far as ENM missteps go. But you also need to console your partner who is also hurting. You both need to be honest with each other and not try to make drastic changes to your relationship when you're already fantasizing about the sex.
(And yes, I would advise the spouse to find the empathy for their partner's hurting simply because she's hurting and the wife to stop turning to the person she hurt here, because it isn't fair. But odds are they're both the only person the other has who they can talk to about it.)
There's contradiction in your own response and calling out Name Withheld referring to it as an "affair." Your own, and in my experience typically true, assumption is the wife had already fell for...
There's contradiction in your own response and calling out Name Withheld referring to it as an "affair."
Your own, and in my experience typically true, assumption is the wife had already fell for someone and decided to have the affair before asking about it. This is already an affair at that point, just an emotional one instead of a physical one. While the focus has been on non-monogamy, there is/was obviously an emotional connection which makes it more than just sexual and so she decided to be polyamorous without the consensual agreement of her partner. An emotional affair.
As it's highly unlikely the wife brought up the topic first, then found a partner afterward, it's possible that it wasn't consensual polyamory/non-monogamy from the actual onset and the betrayal of the affair was already known. Name Withheld says "they knew about it from the beginning", the beginning can be as late as the moment the wife told Withheld about it or from the moment it actually started, which is undoubtedly before the wife asked about it. Since the first paragraph is written in an odd past tense, it's also possible that she had, and Withheld knew about, both an emotional and physical affair prior to her requesting consensual non-monogamy and the request was more a clearing of her own conscience after the fact.
So unless she asked for non-monogamy first, then found a partner, had a year of fun, then broke it off and is sad about now, it was always an affair.
I do agree, I noted it up top because the partner claims that it was something consented to, but obviously considered it an affair. Some of the discrepancy is because I didn't go back and re-edit...
Your own, and in my experience typically true, assumption is the wife had already fell for someone and decided to have the affair before asking about it. This is already an affair at that point, just an emotional one instead of a physical one. While the focus has been on non-monogamy, there is/was obviously an emotional connection which makes it more than just sexual and so she decided to be polyamorous without the consensual agreement of her partner. An emotional affair.
I do agree, I noted it up top because the partner claims that it was something consented to, but obviously considered it an affair. Some of the discrepancy is because I didn't go back and re-edit as I progressed down into the advice for the wife. (I also didn't include the affair comment in my advice to Name Withheld and treated it as if I was talking to both of them. )
As it's highly unlikely the wife brought up the topic first, then found a partner afterward, it's possible that it wasn't consensual polyamory/non-monogamy from the actual onset and the betrayal of the affair was already known. Name Withheld says "they knew about it from the beginning", the beginning can be as late as the moment the wife told Withheld about it or from the moment it actually started, which is undoubtedly before the wife asked about it. Since the first paragraph is written in an odd past tense, it's also possible that she had, and Withheld knew about, both an emotional and physical affair prior to her requesting consensual non-monogamy and the request was more a clearing of her own conscience after the fact.
So unless she asked for non-monogamy first, then found a partner, had a year of fun, then broke it off and is sad about now, it was always an affair.
I think it's somewhat complicated in that having feelings for someone that you don't encourage or act on is not inherently cheating but I agree that IMO it was almost certainly an emotional affair that turned into a poor attempt at ENM. (Withheld doesn't express concern that it started physically earlier so I'll take that for now) At that point I'd say it isn't an affair anymore.
Mostly though it's evidence to me that Withheld wasn't being honest about their consent to it and to me the label is less important other than as a flag about Withheld's actual feelings.
Tl;dr: Whether or not it was an affair, by calling it such Withheld demonstrated that they weren't ok with it.
Can an affair ever become ethical? To be clear, I'm not opposed to polyamory. I have doubts about whether a hidden, nonconsensual relationship can become ethical. Personally, I feel that the...
it was almost certainly an emotional affair that turned into a poor attempt at ENM. (Withheld doesn't express concern that it started physically earlier so I'll take that for now) At that point I'd say it isn't an affair anymore.
Can an affair ever become ethical? To be clear, I'm not opposed to polyamory. I have doubts about whether a hidden, nonconsensual relationship can become ethical.
Personally, I feel that the relationship stays tainted by its dubious beginning. It'd be hard for me to regain trust or ever see the relationship as truly ethical because of the emotional duress from the affair.
I think that requires a lot of trust and negotiation and that's even harder when the first has been damaged. I don't think it's impossible, lots of folks manage to stumble their way into "good"...
I think that requires a lot of trust and negotiation and that's even harder when the first has been damaged. I don't think it's impossible, lots of folks manage to stumble their way into "good" forms of non-monogamy. But I can't tell you for example that it would be possible in your relationship if you feel that way, ya know?
It just seemed to me that she was trying to and possibly from her perspective she did because of that lack of honesty thing and that's why my advice to her is a bit more "call out"
I think an answer would be 'yes', but primarily in situations where the primary relationship ought to end. For example, I would not at all condemn an abused spouse for having an affair (emotional...
Can an affair ever become ethical? To be clear, I'm not opposed to polyamory. I have doubts about whether a hidden, nonconsensual relationship can become ethical.
I think an answer would be 'yes', but primarily in situations where the primary relationship ought to end. For example, I would not at all condemn an abused spouse for having an affair (emotional or physical) with someone genuinely supportive.
Depending on definitions, there might also be trivial cases of brief 'affairs' before legitimization in a polyamourous context. For example, if a couple has opened their relationship but requires mutual approval, if A flirts with (extra-dyadic) C at work, their growing relationship might cross the line into an 'emotional affair' before A seeks dyadic-partner B's permission simply out of self-unawareness.
I have a feeling that the conversation has moved away from the specifics of the article and into generalities... So I just want to nit-pick a little here, not only for the sake of it but because I...
I have a feeling that the conversation has moved away from the specifics of the article and into generalities... So
I just want to nit-pick a little here, not only for the sake of it but because I think it's important that words have meaning and that we keep talking about the same things.
There are many ethical systems that can hold an extra marital affair without breaking.
Not to delve very deep into it but as one example as I understand "consensual" and "nonconsensual" are like I understand "legal" and "illegal" so that there are a lot of "not consensual/legal" actions that are not "nonconsensual/illegal".
I have a similar intuition about the word "affair" considering its usage. To me, it inherently implies an unethical or immoral arrangement which the speaker is condemning, consciously or not.
I have a similar intuition about the word "affair" considering its usage. To me, it inherently implies an unethical or immoral arrangement which the speaker is condemning, consciously or not.
I definitely agree with you about the use of the word "affair" inherently implying unethical behavior, but since it's clear that some people (or at least the author of this article) are not using...
I definitely agree with you about the use of the word "affair" inherently implying unethical behavior, but since it's clear that some people (or at least the author of this article) are not using it that way, it's definitely worth clarifying when discussing the issue in general.
That's why my answer to your question is a maybe, sometimes, it depends. I've definitely known someone whose partner cheated on a non-monogamous relationship and for whom the restorative process...
That's why my answer to your question is a maybe, sometimes, it depends. I've definitely known someone whose partner cheated on a non-monogamous relationship and for whom the restorative process did not involve breaking up either relationship. But whether it was ethical? Idk.
And I'm not sure it's the sort of thing that has a definitive universal answer vs a personal one.
That's a very thoughtful response, and I especially like that you have given good advice on how to practically move forward for both partners. I think perhaps many people are not very familiar...
That's a very thoughtful response, and I especially like that you have given good advice on how to practically move forward for both partners.
I think perhaps many people are not very familiar with ethical non monogamy (such as myself) and possibly carry additional baggage from jealousy, perception of not being enough, of an affair meaning a failed marriage and betrayal etc that compound the felt impact of beginning and ending of the additional relationship.
There's a good possiblity that the submitter doesn't even know of ethical non monogamy at all, and all the careful nuances or care of self plus each other before during and after an arrangement.
The other possibility is that the submitter is aware, and still chose to call it an affair because ENM is not what was agreed upon from the start. In either case, I feel that I would not call their arrangement an ENM because it wouldn't be fair to put words in submitter's mouth, and it does not seem fair to folks who carefully enter into ENM with more conscientiousness, careful planning and some sort of intermediary support network to work out their negative emotions during/after. A lot of "traditional" marriage types have nobody at all to talk about when things go wrong, and are motivated by shame to hide them very hard from closest friends and family, adding additional stress and barriers to healing.
Honestly, this reminds me of my own "traditional" marriage. Except I don't not talk to my friends and family with problems out of shame. I don't talk to them because I don't want to taint their...
A lot of "traditional" marriage types have nobody at all to talk about when things go wrong, and are motivated by shame to hide them very hard from closest friends and family, adding additional stress and barriers to healing.
Honestly, this reminds me of my own "traditional" marriage. Except I don't not talk to my friends and family with problems out of shame. I don't talk to them because I don't want to taint their perception of my wife. I think that's very common.
I love my wife, and I love spending time with her, and we generally communicate well and have very few problems. We do have minor problems now and then though, like every couple. If I told my parents or my sister when those problems came up, or when my wife does things that annoy me, those problems will color their perceptions of her forever.
I know this from experience. If I bring up one time that it annoys me when a girlfriend leaves her clothes on my side of the bed, for years it became "Oh, you must be busy cleaning up after her because of how messy she is".
That becomes one of her main defining character traits forever in their minds. I'd rather not deal with that perception and having to correct people about it, so to the outside world, my wife is and will always be a perfect angel who doesn't do any wrong.
It does leave a gap for who to actually talk to about stuff though.
I find the same thing, and for people in my family, I "curate" information about my problems at home so that they don't get a particular incorrect impression about my spouse. My spouse actually...
I find the same thing, and for people in my family, I "curate" information about my problems at home so that they don't get a particular incorrect impression about my spouse. My spouse actually reacts this way with friends of mine, where if I'm traveling with a friend and vent to him back home, he gets very upset on my behalf and tends to develop overly negative perceptions! They rarely meet, so I don't really care, but sometimes I think about whether I do want to vent to him.
I'm lucky that I have friends and in-laws who know me and/or my spouse well, and so if I want to have a real heart to heart, they know him well enough not to judge him overly much, but still give me good and supportive feedback.
I hear you, and I feel the same sort of protectiveness over my spouse. Their support is momentarily needed, but their mistaken out of context view is forever. That's what good friends are for! And...
I hear you, and I feel the same sort of protectiveness over my spouse. Their support is momentarily needed, but their mistaken out of context view is forever.
That's what good friends are for! And also a reminder for me to stay more neutral or at least not "dump their butt grrrr how dare they do this to my friend ill never forgive them!! Which becomes embarrassing when they've patched things up and are coming for games night.
Do the conversations revolve around "my partner is doing X thing," or is it part of a broader conversation? I kind of understand where you're coming from, but I'm also a bit confused because I...
Do the conversations revolve around "my partner is doing X thing," or is it part of a broader conversation?
I kind of understand where you're coming from, but I'm also a bit confused because I have plenty of friends and family where we discuss relationship happenings, good and ill. If there's any judgement or concern, it's mostly us trying to contextualise the event (there's a massive difference between "troubles in the bedroom" and "basically sexual assault" for example).
Is it gentle ribbing, genuine concern, or something else?
Certainly, I think a lot of people experience both jealousy - this person is mine, their time is mine - and envy - I want to have what you have - and self-doubt in relationships. I don't feel a...
That's a very thoughtful response, and I especially like that you have given good advice on how to practically move forward for both partners.
I think perhaps many people are not very familiar with ethical non monogamy (such as myself) and possibly carry additional baggage from jealousy, perception of not being enough, of an affair meaning a failed marriage and betrayal etc that compound the felt impact of beginning and ending of the additional relationship.
Certainly, I think a lot of people experience both jealousy - this person is mine, their time is mine - and envy - I want to have what you have - and self-doubt in relationships. I don't feel a lot of jealousy but a lot of polyamorous/ENM people do, I do struggle with feelings of being "enough" but not in an exclusive way. I don't expect folks not engaged in it to be super aware though there are some good resources for folks wanting to understand more. Those feelings are natural, how you handle them in the best/most ethical way matters.
There's a good possiblity that the submitter doesn't even know of ethical non monogamy at all, and all the careful nuances or care of self plus each other before during and after an arrangement.
Entirely possible, if not incredibly likely. But what they were attempting to engage in was some sort of non-monogamy in an ethical way. There's not really an exclusionary practice to the label, it's the broadest, intending to be inclusive of all sorts of relationships.
The other possibility is that the submitter is aware, and still chose to call it an affair because ENM is not what was agreed upon from the start. In either case, I feel that I would not call their arrangement an ENM because it wouldn't be fair to put words in submitter's mouth, and it does not seem fair to folks who carefully enter into ENM with more conscientiousness, careful planning and some sort of intermediary support network to work out their negative emotions during/after.
By asking for consent and giving it there was an attempt at engaging in ethical nonmongamy, just not a good one. It may not have been their intent or done with any actual knowledge but plenty of folks have engaged in negotiated ENM without reading the books or participating in the scene.
As I noted in another comment I highlighted the use of the term affair because I believe it demonstrates Name Withheld's feelings on the situation despite having consented and stating it was in alignment with their rational ethical beliefs. (Which is why I dislike rationalist POVs that downplay emotions and pretend humans don't have or act on them).
As a polyamorous person it's IMO absolutely fine to call "bad" ENM or polyamory what it is. Maybe the wife really just wanted to cheat and said whatever she could to get it, but that doesn't seem to be the outcome and I am, despite my stern words, being charitable about her intentions. If she intended to have an extramarital relationship without cheating (regardless of whether she did emotionally or not) she was trying to do ENM in some form.
(And I don't think you can give advice without making some assumptions really. The Ethicist assumed that she broke it off for Name Withheld. She may have broken it off because of them, or because they were making home life miserable sulking or because relationships are hard and it wasn't working for multiple reasons. If I were doing therapy with them I'd be checking the assumptions rather than just making them and giving advice based on them. There's never enough info to be certain in short letters.
A lot of "traditional" marriage types have nobody at all to talk about when things go wrong, and are motivated by shame to hide them very hard from closest friends and family, adding additional stress and barriers to healing.
Absolutely agreed and that is why leaning only on each other, while natural because that's what you do as a spouse, isn't healthy in this situation. You need to demonstrate care for each other not just unidirectional care because she's grieving, and the focus needs to be on their relationship. Hence the therapy. But also that feeling of needing to keep things secret - while sometimes quite necessary - is a flag that they may not actually be ethically comfortable with their actions and is again a reason why communication is an absolute must.
And ultimately, if you're not ok with something, don't consent to it because you think you should be ok with it. Similarly don't ask to break your relationship rules mid breaking them (or a second before you do).
I view non-monogamous people like someone who plays basketball once a week view NBA players. They are the absolute pros at relationships. I can't even fathom being that competent. That sounds like...
I view non-monogamous people like someone who plays basketball once a week view NBA players. They are the absolute pros at relationships. I can't even fathom being that competent.
That sounds like me trying to dunk like Michael Jordan and ending up in the hospital.
If it helps... A lot of them aren't great at it. People still cheat and are still human and thus toxic as often as not. I won't pretend to always to have been great or necessarily that I am great...
If it helps... A lot of them aren't great at it. People still cheat and are still human and thus toxic as often as not. I won't pretend to always to have been great or necessarily that I am great now - I'm too tired to date and being a caretaker makes non-hierarchal relationships harder to navigate - but what I do have is a counseling degree and a willingness to apply the same principles of a couple to relationships beyond that.
Basically I'm playing on easier mode because I went to school and learned how to navigate relationships instead of microbiology.
Folks who make large polycules work (and aren't secretly a toxic mess) are incredibly impressive to me though.
I think healthy non-monogamous relationships simply require a much higher level of communication to function without obvious, big problems. Most couples kind of suck at communicating, and better...
I think healthy non-monogamous relationships simply require a much higher level of communication to function without obvious, big problems. Most couples kind of suck at communicating, and better communication would improve their relationship, but the baseline amount of good communication you need for the relationship to basically function is just higher when there's non-monogamy involved.
my ex and I opened up our relationship about a year before we broke up, but I think most of the problems that led to the breakup were already there or were developing but are tangential to the non-monogamy. It definitely sped up the timeline of the breakup, but honestly I'd rather have that than have had the relationship decay much more slowly over time as it probably would've.
But… isn’t that pretty much exactly what’s written? I’m having difficulty, perhaps due to my lack of imagination or experience in having affairs, in reading it any other way.
They described it as ending due to the emotional load on both of them, that's often true, especially if both partners don't naturally feel comfortable with non-monogamy. I don't agree with the Ethicist necessarily framing it as the wife acquiescing to her spouse's emotions. That isn't what's written.
But… isn’t that pretty much exactly what’s written? I’m having difficulty, perhaps due to my lack of imagination or experience in having affairs, in reading it any other way.
They said for both of us, that could be because she was worried about Name Withheld and recognized their emotions. Or it could be because Name Withheld was sulking around the house making her life...
She recently decided to break it off because the overall emotional burden for both of us was too great.
They said for both of us, that could be because she was worried about Name Withheld and recognized their emotions. Or it could be because Name Withheld was sulking around the house making her life miserable. Or it could be because it wasn't working out with the other partner and she was having a ton of emotions in response. Or because hiding it from others was too stressful, etc. certainly some combination of multiple things were involved since it was "for both of us."
It wasn't clear to me that this was a sacrifice she made for her spouse, rather a "this isn't working" decision. But it's too vague for me to assign her a motive and I don't want to assume she didn't care about their feelings at all given that she did talk about it and they claimed to have consented. If Name Withheld also withheld honesty about their emotions then did she eventually pick up on those emotions or did they tell her eventually or what?
I just also don't think that one should console her because she was "eventually" empathetic to you, you console her because she's someone you love who is sad. Even if she should be seeking that consolation elsewhere.
Just my read on it how it's written though, I am necessarily assuming things, I just think the Ethicist is too, at least as printed.
The question is: do I have to console her. In a marriage, one doesnt really have to do anything. But one loves, and love is a conscious decision to act, not a feeling. They've arrived at an...
Exemplary
The question is: do I have to console her.
In a marriage, one doesnt really have to do anything. But one loves, and love is a conscious decision to act, not a feeling.
They've arrived at an unlikely place, but they can still both decide to do loving things: allow the other to experience joy and relief, and allow the other to experience grief and heartache. They both have to be mature and realise that these intense feelings are not going to be shared by their intimate partner, because these feelings are caused by the same invisible third they have both invited/allowed into a two person space.
This is in that “withholding affection because my partner hurt me” category and its always resolved with communication. Withholding affection from your partner never is and will never be the...
This is in that “withholding affection because my partner hurt me” category and its always resolved with communication.
Withholding affection from your partner never is and will never be the correct answer.
I think its a helpful nytimes article for people who find themselves in this cycle of perpetuating a bad relationship with someone you care about simply because y’all wont actually talk to each other.
I think this is the crux of the issue, and the original question misses an important dimension. I would guess that if they intend to stay together, they need to talk it out, including the hurt the...
I think this is the crux of the issue, and the original question misses an important dimension. I would guess that if they intend to stay together, they need to talk it out, including the hurt the letter writer initially felt, and whether they want to actually stay together. I think "consoling", if you still care about someone who also caused you hurt, can be as simple as "I'm sad to see you so upset, but I'm not sad your relationship with someone else is over. Here are things I can do to help, and here are things I can't do." (I personally have felt simultaneous sadness and relief with events in my marriage, and my spouse knows I'm relieved at his expense - it's not like it's a secret, but I also don't go out of my way to crow victory.) Caring about your partner's feelings is an important aspect to a relationship, and if you don't feel anything but relief when watching them suffering, that's probably quite telling.
If the letter writer feels upset that their wife cheated on them and they're not able to talk about or move past that - which seems rather common - feeling like they "have to" console their cheating wife is just another example of being a doormat to someone else's feelings and never standing up for yourself. Not to mention that feeling as though you "allowed" your spouse to have fun and now are being forced to make them feel better just feels like a recipe for insurmountable resentment...it sounds like they need to do a better job of articulating boundaries and communicating.
I’ll add a perspective that I don’t think anyone else here has brought. I’ve been in this situation before. My wife and I love one another very much. After some bedroom fantasy talk, we discussed...
I’ll add a perspective that I don’t think anyone else here has brought. I’ve been in this situation before. My wife and I love one another very much. After some bedroom fantasy talk, we discussed her seeing other people for real and both agreed to it. She’s been seeing him for a year. It’s purely a sexual relationship and there hasn’t been one moment where I have felt threatened or upset. In fact, our relationship is even stronger now that we both know we can have fun with other people and the other person can handle it.
In reading this person’s letter, it sure sounds like they only agreed to it in the first place because they didn’t want to lose their wife.
Over the past year, she had an affair, and I knew about it from the beginning. She said that she needed it, that it gave her vitality, that she enjoyed a sexual freedom she had longed for and that she felt it was wrong to do this in secret and without my consent. I agreed; what she said made sense to me, and she convincingly assured me this was no threat to our relationship. At the same time, I always suffered when she was away with her affair partner and could not find a way to take this easily.
Again, it sounds like he really didn’t want this in the first place. And then didn’t speak up when he felt uncomfortable about the whole thing. That’s the issue here. If he didn’t feel comfortable or confident enough to speak up, that’s a shame and whatever underlying issue causes that needs to be addressed. Especially before agreeing to something like this. Easier said than done, I know.
As to whether he is right to not want to console his wife? That’s his choice to make. I think he’s perfectly within his rights to say, “look, I can’t help you with this. Can you talk to your best friend or something?” BUT, he also has to accept that by doing that, he could end up just pushing his wife further away. She may (probably will) react negatively…I know I would be upset if I was her.
The whole situation just sounds like a case where two people just want different things in life and maybe they aren’t as compatible as they thought.
I am happy to share my perspective more if people have questions.
But @DefinitelyNotAFae is right, these people need therapy ASAP if they want to salvage their relationship.
I'd add that I think Name Withheld (who never gives us pronouns afaik) thinks they should be ok with ENM, not just because otherwise their wife leaves but also because it fits with their ethical...
I'd add that I think Name Withheld (who never gives us pronouns afaik) thinks they should be ok with ENM, not just because otherwise their wife leaves but also because it fits with their ethical worldview. And so then there's a secondary pressure to not feel hypocritical. Probably why they wrote to the Ethicist rather than Dear Prudence.
But I agree they didn't actually want it in the first place and if they want to repair things both need to put in work now to see if both of them want to stay together or if wife's big push was more driven by her immediate wants than long term needs and she's learned from that.
I have friends who went through this. The husband was cheating, got caught, they agreed to non-monogomy with a selection of rules: no friends, no one who lived in town, no exes... All pretty...
I have friends who went through this. The husband was cheating, got caught, they agreed to non-monogomy with a selection of rules: no friends, no one who lived in town, no exes... All pretty reasonable things. And then he went on to break every single rule. This went on for nearly a decade before they finally got divorced. Both are better for it and the wife is finally healing after a slough of similarly disrespectful relationships. This feels the same, genders reversed.
I don't see how this possibly could have ended any other way. If you cheat, "actually, I think I'm non monogamous" is a complete cop out. You've failed to live up to an agreement you had with your...
I don't see how this possibly could have ended any other way.
If you cheat, "actually, I think I'm non monogamous" is a complete cop out. You've failed to live up to an agreement you had with your significant other, and there's no way to slice it other than an extreme betrayal. I'd argue that non monogamy started that way is virtually always coerced.
I think there are people for whom non monogamy can work well, but I think they're an extreme subset ot the population. Just because you can, on a rational, logical level reason that there's nothing morally wrong with two people mutually deciding they they want to have sex with other people does not mean you're compatible with that lifestyle.
I think the mistake that people make with this stuff is that they look at their marriage, they look at the fact that they can't have sex with other people then go "I like this marriage, except I can't have sex with other people. It'd be even better if I could!"
It's so much more complex than that though. There are so many additional problems and struggles that opening up a relationship brings that you need to weigh. There's a reason why monogamy is the default relationship status, and it's not solely because of oppressive religious mores like a lot of ENM people claim.
When considering this stuff, a lot of people need to look at their relationships and say to themselves "this is great, and that's good enough" instead of "...but it could be even greater!!!".
The biggest thing in my circle right now is ‘which partner do you marry’ because there can only be one. Most people seem to work that out just fine by either agreeing they’ve got a main squeeze or...
The biggest thing in my circle right now is ‘which partner do you marry’ because there can only be one.
Most people seem to work that out just fine by either agreeing they’ve got a main squeeze or by just not marrying.
I wish marriage worked in a way that you could have multiple main partners. It just doesn’t though. So either you miss out on the state benefits of marriage or you ultimately pick one person.
Yeah, in my experience polyamorous folks do not like the comparison to religious/cultural polygyny. Personally it's only a useful comparison in the sense that it's clearly possible to design...
Yeah, in my experience polyamorous folks do not like the comparison to religious/cultural polygyny. Personally it's only a useful comparison in the sense that it's clearly possible to design marriage contracts for more than one person, but usually polygamous marriages are a series of multiple contracts, not a single group contract, the wives rarely have any legal relationship to each other, which limits one's options.
Mirror link here. Keeping in mind that what you would personally do or what would have optimally been healthy for the relationship before this point are separate from the question being asked, is...
Keeping in mind that what you would personally do or what would have optimally been healthy for the relationship before this point are separate from the question being asked, is there an ethical response to advise here?
The person who asked this question was obviously hurt in this whole ordeal, but doesn't seem to realize it. I think that's where their feeling of it not being their problem comes from. They agreed...
The person who asked this question was obviously hurt in this whole ordeal, but doesn't seem to realize it. I think that's where their feeling of it not being their problem comes from. They agreed not because they were ok with it, but because they thought it was better than sharing who they actually felt about the ordeal.
Call it sunk cost fallacy or whatever, but it seems like a communication mistake was made at the start, and then the questioner did what a lot of humans do: stuck to their guns while everything got worse.
By calling it an "affair" I don't think the writer ever really came to terms with it as a consensual non-monogamous relationship. It feels more like thought they should be ok with it rather than looking at alternative sexual opportunities that they were both actually comfortable with.
They described it as ending due to the emotional load on both of them, that's often true, especially if both partners don't naturally feel comfortable with non-monogamy. I don't agree with the Ethicist necessarily framing it as the wife acquiescing to her spouse's emotions. That isn't what's written. And I don't agree with "console her because she realized your feelings matter eventually."
My advice, which I think is ethical, is be honest about your feelings, admitting to your relief and how you actually felt about the relationship while also having the empathy to care that your wife is hurting simply because she's hurting. Not wanting to console her because she is hurting because of a breakup with someone else means you a) should never have consented to this, b) you almost certainly weren't being honest with her or yourself about this throughout, and c) you're being kind of childish about it now because you covered up your feelings and she isn't giving the same in return. (This is pretty normal, it's still not very mature.)
Those are things to work through together and probably with a professionals help so...
Couples therapy for you both, individual therapy for you and don't agree to things you're not ok with. Be honest with each other.
Bonus Advice for Wife:
I'm going to make an assumption or two. You already fell for someone and decided to have the "affair" before asking and trying to make it consensual. You didn't consider how you'd handle the New Relationship Energy - because you were already in it - nor how you'd handle a breakup - because you were not thinking with your brain. I'm also guessing you didn't tell your friends about this so you don't have anyone else to talk to. So you turn to your spouse because that's the thing married couples do.
This is the worst way to approach/attempt ethical non-monogamy. Be honest with your spouse and see a therapist so you can avoid further pressing on their boundaries. Rather than consolation where both of your energies should go to is in rebuilding (or dismantling) your relationship, with grief as a part of that. Because you went about this in a way guaranteed to hurt your spouse and all but guaranteed to hurt you. And it did. You stubbed your own toe, and you can be hurt and take space to work through that but you're just confirming to your spouse that they're the "backup" right now. This isn't unusual as far as ENM missteps go. But you also need to console your partner who is also hurting. You both need to be honest with each other and not try to make drastic changes to your relationship when you're already fantasizing about the sex.
(And yes, I would advise the spouse to find the empathy for their partner's hurting simply because she's hurting and the wife to stop turning to the person she hurt here, because it isn't fair. But odds are they're both the only person the other has who they can talk to about it.)
There's contradiction in your own response and calling out Name Withheld referring to it as an "affair."
Your own, and in my experience typically true, assumption is the wife had already fell for someone and decided to have the affair before asking about it. This is already an affair at that point, just an emotional one instead of a physical one. While the focus has been on non-monogamy, there is/was obviously an emotional connection which makes it more than just sexual and so she decided to be polyamorous without the consensual agreement of her partner. An emotional affair.
As it's highly unlikely the wife brought up the topic first, then found a partner afterward, it's possible that it wasn't consensual polyamory/non-monogamy from the actual onset and the betrayal of the affair was already known. Name Withheld says "they knew about it from the beginning", the beginning can be as late as the moment the wife told Withheld about it or from the moment it actually started, which is undoubtedly before the wife asked about it. Since the first paragraph is written in an odd past tense, it's also possible that she had, and Withheld knew about, both an emotional and physical affair prior to her requesting consensual non-monogamy and the request was more a clearing of her own conscience after the fact.
So unless she asked for non-monogamy first, then found a partner, had a year of fun, then broke it off and is sad about now, it was always an affair.
I do agree, I noted it up top because the partner claims that it was something consented to, but obviously considered it an affair. Some of the discrepancy is because I didn't go back and re-edit as I progressed down into the advice for the wife. (I also didn't include the affair comment in my advice to Name Withheld and treated it as if I was talking to both of them. )
I think it's somewhat complicated in that having feelings for someone that you don't encourage or act on is not inherently cheating but I agree that IMO it was almost certainly an emotional affair that turned into a poor attempt at ENM. (Withheld doesn't express concern that it started physically earlier so I'll take that for now) At that point I'd say it isn't an affair anymore.
Mostly though it's evidence to me that Withheld wasn't being honest about their consent to it and to me the label is less important other than as a flag about Withheld's actual feelings.
Tl;dr: Whether or not it was an affair, by calling it such Withheld demonstrated that they weren't ok with it.
Can an affair ever become ethical? To be clear, I'm not opposed to polyamory. I have doubts about whether a hidden, nonconsensual relationship can become ethical.
Personally, I feel that the relationship stays tainted by its dubious beginning. It'd be hard for me to regain trust or ever see the relationship as truly ethical because of the emotional duress from the affair.
I think that requires a lot of trust and negotiation and that's even harder when the first has been damaged. I don't think it's impossible, lots of folks manage to stumble their way into "good" forms of non-monogamy. But I can't tell you for example that it would be possible in your relationship if you feel that way, ya know?
It just seemed to me that she was trying to and possibly from her perspective she did because of that lack of honesty thing and that's why my advice to her is a bit more "call out"
I think an answer would be 'yes', but primarily in situations where the primary relationship ought to end. For example, I would not at all condemn an abused spouse for having an affair (emotional or physical) with someone genuinely supportive.
Depending on definitions, there might also be trivial cases of brief 'affairs' before legitimization in a polyamourous context. For example, if a couple has opened their relationship but requires mutual approval, if A flirts with (extra-dyadic) C at work, their growing relationship might cross the line into an 'emotional affair' before A seeks dyadic-partner B's permission simply out of self-unawareness.
I have a feeling that the conversation has moved away from the specifics of the article and into generalities... So
I just want to nit-pick a little here, not only for the sake of it but because I think it's important that words have meaning and that we keep talking about the same things.
There are many ethical systems that can hold an extra marital affair without breaking.
Not to delve very deep into it but as one example as I understand "consensual" and "nonconsensual" are like I understand "legal" and "illegal" so that there are a lot of "not consensual/legal" actions that are not "nonconsensual/illegal".
I have a similar intuition about the word "affair" considering its usage. To me, it inherently implies an unethical or immoral arrangement which the speaker is condemning, consciously or not.
I definitely agree with you about the use of the word "affair" inherently implying unethical behavior, but since it's clear that some people (or at least the author of this article) are not using it that way, it's definitely worth clarifying when discussing the issue in general.
That's why my answer to your question is a maybe, sometimes, it depends. I've definitely known someone whose partner cheated on a non-monogamous relationship and for whom the restorative process did not involve breaking up either relationship. But whether it was ethical? Idk.
And I'm not sure it's the sort of thing that has a definitive universal answer vs a personal one.
Ah, I see, well good thing that was cleared up.
To me "affair" just means temporary sexual/romantic relationship.
That's a very thoughtful response, and I especially like that you have given good advice on how to practically move forward for both partners.
I think perhaps many people are not very familiar with ethical non monogamy (such as myself) and possibly carry additional baggage from jealousy, perception of not being enough, of an affair meaning a failed marriage and betrayal etc that compound the felt impact of beginning and ending of the additional relationship.
There's a good possiblity that the submitter doesn't even know of ethical non monogamy at all, and all the careful nuances or care of self plus each other before during and after an arrangement.
The other possibility is that the submitter is aware, and still chose to call it an affair because ENM is not what was agreed upon from the start. In either case, I feel that I would not call their arrangement an ENM because it wouldn't be fair to put words in submitter's mouth, and it does not seem fair to folks who carefully enter into ENM with more conscientiousness, careful planning and some sort of intermediary support network to work out their negative emotions during/after. A lot of "traditional" marriage types have nobody at all to talk about when things go wrong, and are motivated by shame to hide them very hard from closest friends and family, adding additional stress and barriers to healing.
Honestly, this reminds me of my own "traditional" marriage. Except I don't not talk to my friends and family with problems out of shame. I don't talk to them because I don't want to taint their perception of my wife. I think that's very common.
I love my wife, and I love spending time with her, and we generally communicate well and have very few problems. We do have minor problems now and then though, like every couple. If I told my parents or my sister when those problems came up, or when my wife does things that annoy me, those problems will color their perceptions of her forever.
I know this from experience. If I bring up one time that it annoys me when a girlfriend leaves her clothes on my side of the bed, for years it became "Oh, you must be busy cleaning up after her because of how messy she is".
That becomes one of her main defining character traits forever in their minds. I'd rather not deal with that perception and having to correct people about it, so to the outside world, my wife is and will always be a perfect angel who doesn't do any wrong.
It does leave a gap for who to actually talk to about stuff though.
I find the same thing, and for people in my family, I "curate" information about my problems at home so that they don't get a particular incorrect impression about my spouse. My spouse actually reacts this way with friends of mine, where if I'm traveling with a friend and vent to him back home, he gets very upset on my behalf and tends to develop overly negative perceptions! They rarely meet, so I don't really care, but sometimes I think about whether I do want to vent to him.
I'm lucky that I have friends and in-laws who know me and/or my spouse well, and so if I want to have a real heart to heart, they know him well enough not to judge him overly much, but still give me good and supportive feedback.
I hear you, and I feel the same sort of protectiveness over my spouse. Their support is momentarily needed, but their mistaken out of context view is forever.
That's what good friends are for! And also a reminder for me to stay more neutral or at least not "dump their butt grrrr how dare they do this to my friend ill never forgive them!! Which becomes embarrassing when they've patched things up and are coming for games night.
Do the conversations revolve around "my partner is doing X thing," or is it part of a broader conversation?
I kind of understand where you're coming from, but I'm also a bit confused because I have plenty of friends and family where we discuss relationship happenings, good and ill. If there's any judgement or concern, it's mostly us trying to contextualise the event (there's a massive difference between "troubles in the bedroom" and "basically sexual assault" for example).
Is it gentle ribbing, genuine concern, or something else?
Certainly, I think a lot of people experience both jealousy - this person is mine, their time is mine - and envy - I want to have what you have - and self-doubt in relationships. I don't feel a lot of jealousy but a lot of polyamorous/ENM people do, I do struggle with feelings of being "enough" but not in an exclusive way. I don't expect folks not engaged in it to be super aware though there are some good resources for folks wanting to understand more. Those feelings are natural, how you handle them in the best/most ethical way matters.
Entirely possible, if not incredibly likely. But what they were attempting to engage in was some sort of non-monogamy in an ethical way. There's not really an exclusionary practice to the label, it's the broadest, intending to be inclusive of all sorts of relationships.
By asking for consent and giving it there was an attempt at engaging in ethical nonmongamy, just not a good one. It may not have been their intent or done with any actual knowledge but plenty of folks have engaged in negotiated ENM without reading the books or participating in the scene.
As I noted in another comment I highlighted the use of the term affair because I believe it demonstrates Name Withheld's feelings on the situation despite having consented and stating it was in alignment with their rational ethical beliefs. (Which is why I dislike rationalist POVs that downplay emotions and pretend humans don't have or act on them).
As a polyamorous person it's IMO absolutely fine to call "bad" ENM or polyamory what it is. Maybe the wife really just wanted to cheat and said whatever she could to get it, but that doesn't seem to be the outcome and I am, despite my stern words, being charitable about her intentions. If she intended to have an extramarital relationship without cheating (regardless of whether she did emotionally or not) she was trying to do ENM in some form.
(And I don't think you can give advice without making some assumptions really. The Ethicist assumed that she broke it off for Name Withheld. She may have broken it off because of them, or because they were making home life miserable sulking or because relationships are hard and it wasn't working for multiple reasons. If I were doing therapy with them I'd be checking the assumptions rather than just making them and giving advice based on them. There's never enough info to be certain in short letters.
Absolutely agreed and that is why leaning only on each other, while natural because that's what you do as a spouse, isn't healthy in this situation. You need to demonstrate care for each other not just unidirectional care because she's grieving, and the focus needs to be on their relationship. Hence the therapy. But also that feeling of needing to keep things secret - while sometimes quite necessary - is a flag that they may not actually be ethically comfortable with their actions and is again a reason why communication is an absolute must.
And ultimately, if you're not ok with something, don't consent to it because you think you should be ok with it. Similarly don't ask to break your relationship rules mid breaking them (or a second before you do).
Your perspective from experiences on this topic is much appreciated, I was hopeful that you would be willing to share, thank you for taking the time
I view non-monogamous people like someone who plays basketball once a week view NBA players. They are the absolute pros at relationships. I can't even fathom being that competent.
That sounds like me trying to dunk like Michael Jordan and ending up in the hospital.
If it helps... A lot of them aren't great at it. People still cheat and are still human and thus toxic as often as not. I won't pretend to always to have been great or necessarily that I am great now - I'm too tired to date and being a caretaker makes non-hierarchal relationships harder to navigate - but what I do have is a counseling degree and a willingness to apply the same principles of a couple to relationships beyond that.
Basically I'm playing on easier mode because I went to school and learned how to navigate relationships instead of microbiology.
Folks who make large polycules work (and aren't secretly a toxic mess) are incredibly impressive to me though.
I think healthy non-monogamous relationships simply require a much higher level of communication to function without obvious, big problems. Most couples kind of suck at communicating, and better communication would improve their relationship, but the baseline amount of good communication you need for the relationship to basically function is just higher when there's non-monogamy involved.
my ex and I opened up our relationship about a year before we broke up, but I think most of the problems that led to the breakup were already there or were developing but are tangential to the non-monogamy. It definitely sped up the timeline of the breakup, but honestly I'd rather have that than have had the relationship decay much more slowly over time as it probably would've.
But… isn’t that pretty much exactly what’s written? I’m having difficulty, perhaps due to my lack of imagination or experience in having affairs, in reading it any other way.
They said for both of us, that could be because she was worried about Name Withheld and recognized their emotions. Or it could be because Name Withheld was sulking around the house making her life miserable. Or it could be because it wasn't working out with the other partner and she was having a ton of emotions in response. Or because hiding it from others was too stressful, etc. certainly some combination of multiple things were involved since it was "for both of us."
It wasn't clear to me that this was a sacrifice she made for her spouse, rather a "this isn't working" decision. But it's too vague for me to assign her a motive and I don't want to assume she didn't care about their feelings at all given that she did talk about it and they claimed to have consented. If Name Withheld also withheld honesty about their emotions then did she eventually pick up on those emotions or did they tell her eventually or what?
I just also don't think that one should console her because she was "eventually" empathetic to you, you console her because she's someone you love who is sad. Even if she should be seeking that consolation elsewhere.
Just my read on it how it's written though, I am necessarily assuming things, I just think the Ethicist is too, at least as printed.
The question is: do I have to console her.
In a marriage, one doesnt really have to do anything. But one loves, and love is a conscious decision to act, not a feeling.
They've arrived at an unlikely place, but they can still both decide to do loving things: allow the other to experience joy and relief, and allow the other to experience grief and heartache. They both have to be mature and realise that these intense feelings are not going to be shared by their intimate partner, because these feelings are caused by the same invisible third they have both invited/allowed into a two person space.
This is in that “withholding affection because my partner hurt me” category and its always resolved with communication.
Withholding affection from your partner never is and will never be the correct answer.
I think its a helpful nytimes article for people who find themselves in this cycle of perpetuating a bad relationship with someone you care about simply because y’all wont actually talk to each other.
I think this is the crux of the issue, and the original question misses an important dimension. I would guess that if they intend to stay together, they need to talk it out, including the hurt the letter writer initially felt, and whether they want to actually stay together. I think "consoling", if you still care about someone who also caused you hurt, can be as simple as "I'm sad to see you so upset, but I'm not sad your relationship with someone else is over. Here are things I can do to help, and here are things I can't do." (I personally have felt simultaneous sadness and relief with events in my marriage, and my spouse knows I'm relieved at his expense - it's not like it's a secret, but I also don't go out of my way to crow victory.) Caring about your partner's feelings is an important aspect to a relationship, and if you don't feel anything but relief when watching them suffering, that's probably quite telling.
If the letter writer feels upset that their wife cheated on them and they're not able to talk about or move past that - which seems rather common - feeling like they "have to" console their cheating wife is just another example of being a doormat to someone else's feelings and never standing up for yourself. Not to mention that feeling as though you "allowed" your spouse to have fun and now are being forced to make them feel better just feels like a recipe for insurmountable resentment...it sounds like they need to do a better job of articulating boundaries and communicating.
I’ll add a perspective that I don’t think anyone else here has brought. I’ve been in this situation before. My wife and I love one another very much. After some bedroom fantasy talk, we discussed her seeing other people for real and both agreed to it. She’s been seeing him for a year. It’s purely a sexual relationship and there hasn’t been one moment where I have felt threatened or upset. In fact, our relationship is even stronger now that we both know we can have fun with other people and the other person can handle it.
In reading this person’s letter, it sure sounds like they only agreed to it in the first place because they didn’t want to lose their wife.
Again, it sounds like he really didn’t want this in the first place. And then didn’t speak up when he felt uncomfortable about the whole thing. That’s the issue here. If he didn’t feel comfortable or confident enough to speak up, that’s a shame and whatever underlying issue causes that needs to be addressed. Especially before agreeing to something like this. Easier said than done, I know.
As to whether he is right to not want to console his wife? That’s his choice to make. I think he’s perfectly within his rights to say, “look, I can’t help you with this. Can you talk to your best friend or something?” BUT, he also has to accept that by doing that, he could end up just pushing his wife further away. She may (probably will) react negatively…I know I would be upset if I was her.
The whole situation just sounds like a case where two people just want different things in life and maybe they aren’t as compatible as they thought.
I am happy to share my perspective more if people have questions.
But @DefinitelyNotAFae is right, these people need therapy ASAP if they want to salvage their relationship.
I'd add that I think Name Withheld (who never gives us pronouns afaik) thinks they should be ok with ENM, not just because otherwise their wife leaves but also because it fits with their ethical worldview. And so then there's a secondary pressure to not feel hypocritical. Probably why they wrote to the Ethicist rather than Dear Prudence.
But I agree they didn't actually want it in the first place and if they want to repair things both need to put in work now to see if both of them want to stay together or if wife's big push was more driven by her immediate wants than long term needs and she's learned from that.
But yeah therapy and being honest with each other
I have friends who went through this. The husband was cheating, got caught, they agreed to non-monogomy with a selection of rules: no friends, no one who lived in town, no exes... All pretty reasonable things. And then he went on to break every single rule. This went on for nearly a decade before they finally got divorced. Both are better for it and the wife is finally healing after a slough of similarly disrespectful relationships. This feels the same, genders reversed.
I don't see how this possibly could have ended any other way.
If you cheat, "actually, I think I'm non monogamous" is a complete cop out. You've failed to live up to an agreement you had with your significant other, and there's no way to slice it other than an extreme betrayal. I'd argue that non monogamy started that way is virtually always coerced.
I think there are people for whom non monogamy can work well, but I think they're an extreme subset ot the population. Just because you can, on a rational, logical level reason that there's nothing morally wrong with two people mutually deciding they they want to have sex with other people does not mean you're compatible with that lifestyle.
I think the mistake that people make with this stuff is that they look at their marriage, they look at the fact that they can't have sex with other people then go "I like this marriage, except I can't have sex with other people. It'd be even better if I could!"
It's so much more complex than that though. There are so many additional problems and struggles that opening up a relationship brings that you need to weigh. There's a reason why monogamy is the default relationship status, and it's not solely because of oppressive religious mores like a lot of ENM people claim.
When considering this stuff, a lot of people need to look at their relationships and say to themselves "this is great, and that's good enough" instead of "...but it could be even greater!!!".
The biggest thing in my circle right now is ‘which partner do you marry’ because there can only be one.
Most people seem to work that out just fine by either agreeing they’ve got a main squeeze or by just not marrying.
I wish marriage worked in a way that you could have multiple main partners. It just doesn’t though. So either you miss out on the state benefits of marriage or you ultimately pick one person.
Aside from countries where polygamy is allowed, although women are rarely given the same freedom to legally marry multiple partners.
Yeah, in my experience polyamorous folks do not like the comparison to religious/cultural polygyny. Personally it's only a useful comparison in the sense that it's clearly possible to design marriage contracts for more than one person, but usually polygamous marriages are a series of multiple contracts, not a single group contract, the wives rarely have any legal relationship to each other, which limits one's options.
Yeah I don’t think Id count that lol
Mirror link here.
Keeping in mind that what you would personally do or what would have optimally been healthy for the relationship before this point are separate from the question being asked, is there an ethical response to advise here?
The person who asked this question was obviously hurt in this whole ordeal, but doesn't seem to realize it. I think that's where their feeling of it not being their problem comes from. They agreed not because they were ok with it, but because they thought it was better than sharing who they actually felt about the ordeal.
Call it sunk cost fallacy or whatever, but it seems like a communication mistake was made at the start, and then the questioner did what a lot of humans do: stuck to their guns while everything got worse.