Do I need dating apps? (same-sex, a bit of ace)
I've been thinking on this for a while, and was inspired to ask about it while reading through the blackpill thread. I don't intend to actually look for a relationship for a while; it's been six months since the breakup, and my ex and I didn't agree to no-contact until two days ago, so I still have a long healing process to get through. But I have a lot of... dread? around not having a life partner forever, with the key factor being not having a close friend like my ex was pre-relationship. If I could emotionally and financially handle all life matters on my own that would be beautiful, but even just thinking about getting to the place I want to be financially while still maintaining a certain lifestyle is anxiety-inducing on its own. So again, even as I do not actively prepare to download any app and put myself out there, I'd like to take some notes as someone who has never used an app and whose previous relationships were by chance (classmates while in school, ex was from MMO).
For starters: I'm a cis woman, early 30s, and identify as lesbian, demisexual, demiromantic. I don't know where I am on the scale of conventional attractiveness. I'm extremely short and skinny. I've never really gone through the initial "dating" process (I knew my exes before getting in a relationship with them so we kind of jumped into being exclusive/"official").
The demi- bits mean a lot to me. I feel it makes sense to just seek spaces for activities that I enjoy and go on from there, but I feel like it's a difficult numbers game because statistically most people will be straight, right? And I don't think I exude any non-straight energy either, if that's even a thing. So this brings me to why I feel I inevitably will need to use dating apps - I fear the environment, I have never applied makeup on myself and couldn't tell you the difference between mascara and eyeliner without Googling, and the blackpill thread is filled with commentary on how these apps really cultivate a landscape with a focus on appearance. But simply being not-straight makes me feel I have to use an app for the basic filter of gender preference.
I don't see myself going to a gay bar (prefer not to drink). I can see some queer-friendly dating-focused events in my area that sound okay but I fear my issues with social performance will keep me away (I can perform for one person but the few events I see right now are speed-dating or casual mixers). Also some of them are hosted at wineries/pubs and I get that alcohol is normal, but I really don't like the vibe of bars themselves (too loud).
I also don't know if there are... things to "know" when trying to date as a lesbian? Like when folks talk about being masc/femme, those things don't really mean anything to me - I have male-dominated hobbies and don't wear feminine clothing, but to say that any bit of me says "masculine" in any way just doesn't seem right. I also honest to god do not know what expectations are regarding trans women. I can't write them off as I've never dated or been romantically interested in a trans woman, but I do fear that the... equipment, for lack of better phrase... might matter to me, and I don't want to offend too late? Is it transphobic to say I'd prefer to date cis women?
Apologies as I realize that this is definitely becoming more of a ramble on "how date, I've never dated strangers" and less on advice for use of dating apps specifically. But at the end of the day, yes, I feel that I will need to use dating apps but fear the experiences that I read about from using them.
Genuinely I'd suggest starting with making queer connections in queer social spaces that aren't the bar and that aren't focused on dating. And not with the subconscious goal of dating people you meet there, but because being in the community is how you'll find folks more often than not.
Queer spaces, even the apps, are generally less about all of the performance stuff, IME. Gay male culture has its share of feeling the need to perform in a particular way, but also has a lot more comfort with hook ups. Queer women stereotypically move in on the second date. You don't need to do eyeliner or perform a certain way - there are queer apps but idk what's the most popular now - if you want to just be you.
Especially since you're demi, it sounds like the goal should be building those long term strong friendships - some of which might turn into romantic ones, and others will support you through the dating scene in a way randoms on the internet can't. And in general I think doing things you enjoy around and with the type of folks you like is the way to find someone(s). So hence being in more queer spaces.
I met many of my partners LARPing, playing WoW, at conventions, etc. They're often queerer spaces and even when I would be dating a guy, it was much more likely to be a bi guy that wasn't weird about the queerness like some of my straight bfs have been.
Just my two cents. I get the fear of loneliness but I think the solution is less "lean in on dating" and more "exist out in the world making connections."
Just my 2¢
I'm looking for some of these spaces now because what you and others have said about building those friendships rings true to me when I'm in a better headspace. I wrote in another comment that one great fear I have is that I won't find someone who's compatible with me because I spent a decade happily single - not just because I preferred it, but because I just never met anyone who made me genuinely wish they weren't straight (and it was a very anxiety filled confession when I did get to it...). Now, seeking queer spaces (or queerer than usual spaces) without the intent of seeking a relationship would probably help with that, but as someone who's gone through a fair share of turning down men, I also greatly fear having an interest in someone but not even being compatible from the get-go - which is definitely a very common experience probably even from the hetero side of things, but I'm not sure how to navigate that "well" if that makes sense? My last approach was to really express how much I still wanted to be close friends with her even if she may not be interested and that it's okay if she needed to reevaluate the friendship, etc......
It's ok to have an unrequited crush - an interest with someone who isn't interested in you back though it's important not to hold onto that. But you've referred a lot to being uncertain about being into a trans woman and I think that's why being friends is important. You need to stop being anxious about even the idea of being attracted to a trans woman (or non-binary person or whatever else is making you anxious.)and socializing will help, therapy may help. But it is very normal to have feelings for someone who can't work as a partner - because they're in a relationship and monogamous, because they're not into your gender, because they're ace/aro and you want sex/romance - but it's also common to go "oh I guess my sexuality is more complex than I thought."
I'm not sure which thing is bugging you more. But that's why I'm saying to get more comfortable in those spaces socially. Either you'll connect with someone there and you have all the typical awkward negotiating around relationships, or you'll get the comfort and confidence to date in queer spaces, apps or otherwise. It's hard to say "hey I'm interested in you" which is why the queer stereotype is that two women date for a year without one of them realizing they're dating. It's ok to say "hey I like how you smile and think you're cute and I'd like to go to dinner if you're interested" without a long "it's ok if not" addendum.
It's been a few days of light mulling over since my original post and I can definitely say that... it isn't quite anxiety about being attracted to someone with XYZ traits (because if I'm being real, the thought of even being attracted to anyone feels like the real hurdle LOL). Socializing and a bit of education will definitely help because this anxiety, I think, definitely stems from ignorance. Discussing queer topics genuinely just is not something that I have done outside of places like Tildes or with some very specific people in my life.
I'm fortunate that I'm in a decently sized city in what I assume is the holy land of blue amongst US states so I have a few leads on community events or spaces to go to that aren't bars/food related. Hopefully I can report back several months from now as someone much more comfortable with - insert vague handwaving - all this. Thank you!
If you happen to be in Central Illinois, feel free to let me know and I'd be happy to point you in some directions. Best of luck sib!
If you're near San Francisco, feel free to reach out if you need some help connecting with community.
Yeah look I'm trying to figure out what the holy land of blue is too. I like IL but don't think of CA as the holy land (and also that if IL, Chicago wouldn't be "decent sized" in comparison).
Wherever you are OP there's probably someone from around there around here!
Haha, I will admit that the "holy land of blue" was a bit tongue in cheek but also naive (especially if I don't really actively discuss queer topics myself so how the heck would I know what it's like). I'm in northern CA but not in the Bay Area (which I feel might narrow down a specific city, but that could be naivete again on my part!).
FWIW living the vast majority of my life specifically in Los Angeles and within very liberal circles growing up means... I may take the "blueness" very much for granted. I think part of it was a few discussions in my online circles on ideal states to relocate to for our trans friends and CA seems to win out for a bunch of reasons (size, number of urban spaces all across the state vs. having to choose between like three cities max, etc). Other than that I don't mean to, uh, give any undue credit so to speak to CA :')
edit: Ok just out of curiosity I went to Wikipedia to look at population density (I know LA is a bit tough because if I'm not mistaken, actual "Los Angeles" the city is kind of ginormous compared to say, San Francisco). Anyways, TIL Sacramento is ranked 6th in CA for population but when my frame of reference is LA... hmm, yeah, "decent-sized" is fair I think. Population and density is also peanuts compared to Chicago!
Nah no worries, MN and IL are also other decent states for trans folks to move to and something people are actively helping with. Cost of living being lower than CA is the biggest appeal difference I suspect. (And maybe climate depending on what folks prefer.)
Best of luck!
Maybe MA? I can see someone from Massachusetts viewing their state like that.
See we got lots of places! Single digits of them!
I havent dated since forever, but I always imagined if I was looking for a partner now, I would heavily invest into making new friends, because I cannot imagine myself dating someone I couldn't be good friends with anyway. In the other thread folks are talking about looks and height; I have to respect that because I'm not looking for conventional qualities, I must look in unconventional places.
That's excellent, other women might also enjoy male dominated hobbies, and if you meet any, right away you've got something in common! And if they're all men, maybe they have sisters and good platonic friends.
Not all trans women have the same equipment, so you can't really operate off that assumption. You're not obligated to date trans women, of course, but this particular fear seems to rely on some misconceptions. imo you shouldn't treat trans women as being any more inherently likely to be sexually incompatible with you than a given cis woman is -- especially when you don't have enough experience to even be sure what matters to you yet. If you date a trans woman and discover that you're not sexually compatible (due to the "equipment" or anything else), that shouldn't be any different than dating a cis woman and discovering you're sexually incompatible. Setting aside whether it's transphobic or not, I just don't think saying you only date cis women is all that effective a way to ensure you're sexually compatible with the people you end up dating. That's something that simply varies too much between individuals regardless of what equipment they have.
I'm demi myself, though I'm bi and trans so things aren't exactly the same for me in terms of the dating landscape. I can't really give lesbian-specific advice, but I do think as a demi person seeking out community and solid platonic friendships is the best next step to take -- focusing too much on finding a romantic relationship specifically makes it difficult to actually get the sparks to ignite in my experience, and developing solid non-romantic relationships is so vital to mental health and enriching to one's life even if they never become something romantic.
Thank you for your perspective on this!
This could have been its own topic to be honest; I have a lot of "I'm curious but afraid to ask" questions. And these questions aren't exclusive to trans people; these are questions that stem from my own limited sexual experience - which if I exclude some unpleasant college experiences, is limited to only one partner, my last ex. You do bring up a great point that it most likely isn't an effective way of ensuring compatibility - that compatibility is something I do have some anxiety over, but you're right in that there's a whole lot of other factors even if I did narrow down preferences to cis women. In fact I can add, "what the hell does sex with other women that aren't my ex look like" into the big bucket of why I have these fears. (That, of course, is not a question I want or need answered today LOL, but it's good to place a better label on why I'm nervous about a future where I do seek a relationship)
I read both you and anyone else who has commented on not focusing on seeking a romantic relationship, especially if I identify as demi. Like - yes, I know I'm thinking these thoughts because of this anxiety and fear of never finding this person if I don't make an explicit effort to look for it. Part of that is because I was happily single for nearly a decade after my unpleasant experience at a younger age and I finally met someone whose company I genuinely enjoyed. I need to remember that part of the reason for that is because I was never big on going out and meeting new people or participating in new experiences where new people are involved.
I can very much relate to what you mention here. I just got out of a long-term relationship myself and it's a lot of work to rediscover who I am on my own and what I want for myself when she isn't in the picture. I think it's normal to feel some anxiety as part of that, and I feel a lot of similar worries about never finding someone compatible with me again.
I think regardless of whether either of us hops on dating apps anytime soon, our focus more generally needs to be on building platonic connections with others and making our lives happy and worthwhile as single people. Because ultimately even if we never have another romantic relationship, our lives can still be rich and fulfilling and full of love. Plus, as a bonus I think focusing on that makes you come across better to others in the dating sphere anyway.
If you're interested, I've got some lesbian friends who have been on the dating scene more recently than me, so I can pick their brains for lesbian-specific dating advice next time I see them. Not sure how similar your locale is to mine, but who knows?
I relate to your description of yourself, with some exceptions that I don't think matter too much (for example, I'm cis-het but I too have many "masculine" interests but can't understand what makes them masculine so I don't describe myself that way). Some thoughts.
Please don't read too much into the blackpill stuff. I read through some of it and some people's comments on there are.. (not familiar with the terminology to be very precise) something-pilled, even when they describe not being into it anymore.
Yes, it's true that some people are superficial and will be more attracted to modelesque people or even refuse to date anyone who isn't insanely attractive physically. Also, water is wet. From this it does not follow that everyone is like that or that you even want to meet people who are. (Except of course if you yourself are superficial, but I'm going to assume no.) They're on the apps but they will be easy to ignore, just like you're going to ignore anyone else who is a bad fit for you. You don't need to know how attractive you are, but it will help if you like your own appearance - and if you don't or are unsure, working on your style (and healthy lifestyle / habits if applicable) is enough.
I was on the apps last year and I've met all my significant partners on them. They are structured in a certain way but nothing mandates you to use them in a way that isn't in line with what you want. For example, I don't care about looks at all so I read the bio carefully and I only give it a like if the bio makes me feel genuinely excited about getting to know that person. Which happens extremely rarely. So, browsing is boring because you'll be swiping mostly to the left, but in the end that's a good thing. I don't meet a great match in real life very often at all so of course they aren't abundant online either, and ideally I only want to talk to those who I get along with rather than randomly wasting my energy and focus. Realistic expectations will protect you from getting discouraged.
When filling out / writing your profile, it's best to focus mainly on conveying your personality as completely and vividly as possible, and maybe shedding some light on what kind of relationship you're looking for. Listing negative traits you don't want in a partner isn't a good idea because no one thinks of themself negatively and they aren't going to self-select out of your dating pool based on what you say. It's better to just be aware of what you'd like to avoid and then develop ways to figure out which people have those qualities. Sometimes you'll see it directly from the profile, other times it takes a few messages back and forth. Back when I started, I ended up on dates with some not-so-nice people but I learned quite quickly to ask the right questions and read between the lines so that I started having fun dates only!
Overall I'd just like to encourage you to go in with the mindset that you're on there to see if your future partner happens to be on there too - not to conform to a set of expectations some other users may have. We are all unique, individual people and all it takes for any of us is meeting one other person who is like-minded enough. The red/black/purple/whatever-pill idea that dating is a numbers game and you need to attract a maximum number of people to find a partner is counterproductive. If you obfuscate who you really are to maximise your options (quantitatively), you may end up alienating the few people out there who are ideal for you (qualitatively). Just be yourself, as cliche as it sounds.
Here's an older comment of mine about using dating apps in a perhaps uncommon but productive way.
It's cliche but extremely true. If I could add anything, it'd be "be the best version of yourself" because self-improvement is attractive to almost everyone. Worst-case scenario, you'll still be a better person for yourself!
I’ve actually come to disagree with being the best version of yourself. YMMV, of course; but I have realized that showing your flaws upfront does a lot to filter out the noise and time wasters.
This is the approach my partner and I both took when we were on OKCupid, and I think it's the key thing that helped us find each other.
Some flaws are deal breakers for one person, but no problem at all (maybe even desirable) for someone else — and if you get into a relationship, your flaws will come out eventually, no matter how well you hid them early on.
My thinking was that I'd much rather get filtered out of someone's dating pool before I care what they think, rather than six months into falling in love. My goal was to find a life partner, not waste 10+ years of my life jumping between short-term relationships that were going nowhere. So I basically compiled my exes' complaints about me and made sure the most salient ones were mentioned somewhere in my dating profile.
And what do you know, turns out quite few people find that kind of honesty and vulnerability deeply intriguing.
I get that, I also think the "best version of you" should still be you and not a character with your name. But Minori seemed to be saying more that you should work on self-improvement than pretend to be someone you aren't.
Yep, I'm not saying to lie about who you are. We're still human; even the best people have some faults and quirks.
Baby here. I don't speak for us all. The demi folk I've met are more into me than the genitals and make do with what is there. My partner actually identified as lesbian before dating me and couldn't really square the circle of why I was the exception until I came out 10 years later. Not to box you in and say you've got to conform, not at all, just saying you may be surprised.
God I can't imagine trying to date now and the difficulties I'd have. But I'd understand if other lesbians weren't on board for sex with me with where I'm at. Ideally, they would see me identify as trans and respectfully not match were it a hard boundary on a dating app.
But like if someone and I developed
reciprocal romantic feelings naturally without going for dating? A good relationship starts with an honest discussion of each others' feelings, and I'd want my situation to be clear in such a discussion. My feelings would probably be hurt if that was the reason not to proceed, I doubt I'd consider them a transphobe, perhaps just closed minded about sex (non-derogatory). There's, uh, plenty of ways to have great sex without my genitals being involved, though I'd hardly be trying to convince them of that if they said not interested, I'd respect that. I'd also understand if they wanted to try despite having reservations, and then they find themselves unable to proceed when it comes down to it -- I'd appreciate the effort and respect their boundaries. Wouldn't be offended unless they were being disrespectful. FWIW, I'm not into what's there either, I'm making do.
On my part, I also identify as poly and wouldn't be bothered if my partner wanted to have sex with a person AFAB as well, though she's monogamous and can't comprehend that.
However, I would encourage you to read about the genital changes trans women undergo even without surgery, you may be surprised with what you find, I know I was. Each body is different though, don't expect to know what's going on with a specific person beforehand.
As long as you don't say you don't wanna date trans women because they're not women, you're fine on the transphobia front in my book. It isn't like you're obligated to want to date EVERY woman because you're a lesbian, having some sort of preferences is natural. Just be kind, respectful, and honest.
Again, I'm a baby and don't speak for us all though, maybe trans women that have gone through those trenches have a different perspective.
I used to think that dating and finding a "keeper" woman was complicated. Then this thread happened. Call me eye-opened, but not educated yet. How you guys and gals in non-heterosexual relationships even manage to keep all these plates in the air is beyond my understanding.
OP; this comes from a heterosexual male in a long-term partnership with my adorable wife, so take it with a huge grain of salt. But to me at least it makes zero sense to look for a new woman while hurting from a breakup. My advice to avoid latching yourself to the first person who gives you the time of the day would be to let 6 months pass before you start dating or even thinking of dating again. This is not tailored to you advice, this is general tailored to humans advice.
By the way, this rule also applies to taking major decisions after a death in the family, or major trauma.
(I have a lot of drafted responses to other folks in this thread but this one was a bit more straightforward)
No worries on the timing front - I was broken up with 6 months ago and I’m still a hot awful mess, and a romantic relationship is the farthest thing from my mind right now. A lot of this post was more to compile a reference for when I am in a better place. I appreciate the thoughts!
I'm just gonna put this here: I joined a roller derby league, and holy mother of pearl! I grew up in California and was in the LGB (that's all the letters it had at the time) group of sorts back in the day. Then I bounced around for a bit and am currently in New England, which has a drastic lack of ... not-"normal"-white-people (almost everyone's white, though I'm editing this and suspecting I'm tired and not conveying what I mean quite right). I mean, I lived in Texas, which also had a lovely variety on one scale, but here there's just a lotta white folk.
So yeah, I joined, and there are people who joined at the same time who opt for more referee type stuff (off skates), but the culture is so lovely and I actually joined a MTG group with it (and also learned I suck at nerding out. I mean, I'm a nerd, but... I am not good at MTG, but it's so much fun hanging with them!), and I have trans friends (ngl I have a crush on one, and I am cis-female, and this is a new level of crush for me... granted, been in a relationship for the last 20, so... it's just a crush, and also she has someone)...
All that to say, it's kinda stupid expensive, so not really an easy way to go. But, you could also look into if there's a league nearby and attend the games and start to get to know folks that way!
Edit: Sorry, this was supposed to be directed towards "how to I find my people?", and I suspect I did not convey that very well originally.
I really appreciate your thoughts on "how to find my people"! I post on the weekly fitness thread here about my muay thai classes and generally enjoying the gym I go to. It's small enough that they know who I am and they see and note the progress I make even if I don't talk much. But part of me also knows that this is definitely not where I'd "find my people" - there's a thin veneer of conservatism that I'm not sure if I can describe properly... that is, I don't know their opinions on certain topics without being explicitly told, but it's a place where I feel welcome as long as I'm 90% of myself and not 100%, you know?
I've been looking at this roller derby thing because I know absolutely nothing about it. Looked into the league in my city and this honestly seems like a good lead to look into since their site mentions a need for volunteers for various things that they'll train for. Thank you!
Honestly the only thing I do know about roller derby is that it's full of lesbians, so.
Glad it's of help! If anything, it tends to lean towards LGBTQ+ (though there are exceptions to every rule) and can at least provide a venue to meet new people and watch a pretty fun sport (imo) in the meantime.
Don't think about it too hard. Find somebody you click with (but don't obsess over the first date "spark"). Whether that means the yin to your yang or your partner in crime all depends on the person and relationship. You'll figure out what you need as you go. Have some confidence in yourself and be open to new experiences!
To get into the giblets, genital configuration matters a lot to some people and not at all to others. If you find a trans woman you're potentially interested in, around your age range, she's more likely to be post-op. Regardless, talk about it, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Open and honest communication is critical for sex and relationships.
To consider an extreme example, if a partner was perfect in every way except for the sex life, how much would you care? It's a good question to ask independent of the trans stuff, because some people have incompatible desires and sex drive will vary.
I'm some flavor of bisexual, but I broke up with a guy because we just weren't sexually compatible. For a time, it made me question my bisexuality entirely. Labels can be useful for communication, but don't let them stifle your heart. If a woman checks all the boxes till you learn she's trans, well maybe it's still worth seeing where things go?