28 votes

How Many Bones Would You Break to Get Laid? “Incels” are going under the knife to reshape their faces, and their dating prospects.

81 comments

  1. [19]
    Hypersapien
    Link
    They can't seem to understand that their inability to get dates has nothing to do with what they look like and everything to do with the fact that they think of women as sex vending machines.

    They can't seem to understand that their inability to get dates has nothing to do with what they look like and everything to do with the fact that they think of women as sex vending machines.

    44 votes
    1. [10]
      papasquat
      Link Parent
      It's weird too, because some people's inability to get dates really does stem from what they look like. There are genuinely ugly people out there that 99% of the population wouldn't date. The kind...

      It's weird too, because some people's inability to get dates really does stem from what they look like. There are genuinely ugly people out there that 99% of the population wouldn't date.
      The kind of people obsessed with this stuff tend to not be bad looking, at least not what you'd call ugly.
      Every time one of these people posts a picture of themselves, they're an average, slightly nerdy looking white guy.
      Its not the type of person that you'd imagine who would be willing to go through painful, dangerous cosmetic surgeries.

      19 votes
      1. Gaywallet
        Link Parent
        Mental diseases have little to do with physical appearance. In the same way there's no particular way an "alcoholic" looks, this mental disease doesn't discriminate based on appearance.

        Its not the type of person that you'd imagine who would be willing to go through painful, dangerous cosmetic surgeries.

        Mental diseases have little to do with physical appearance. In the same way there's no particular way an "alcoholic" looks, this mental disease doesn't discriminate based on appearance.

        10 votes
      2. [4]
        Wolf
        Link Parent
        I understand what you're saying and agree with you that most of them are not "ugly." I just don't agree with using the selfies as evidence about their looks. I think there's a bit of...

        I understand what you're saying and agree with you that most of them are not "ugly." I just don't agree with using the selfies as evidence about their looks. I think there's a bit of self-selection going on there, in that the best looking of the bunch would be the most likely to post pictures of themselves. The incel community is based around people who are hyperfocused on looks, and to show a picture of yourself to that community would take some amount of confidence on how you look.

        However, there is always the possibility that the pictures garner a significant amount of sympathy, and that the 'ugliest' pictures would get the most sympathy. In this case, there would be a lot of support for your comment.

        But it seems unlikely that a group as anxious and as hateful as incels would be able to create a space safe enough to encourage a representative sample of people to post.

        5 votes
        1. [3]
          dubteedub
          Link Parent
          If you are interested in seeing more pictures of folks that identify as incels, they actually have a whole subreddit that they post on https://www.reddit.com/r/Incelselfies/. The top all time post...

          If you are interested in seeing more pictures of folks that identify as incels, they actually have a whole subreddit that they post on https://www.reddit.com/r/Incelselfies/.

          The top all time post on the sub is actually a guy showing progress and got a girlfriend.

          https://www.reddit.com/r/Incelselfies/comments/b2mz2y/update_gymaxxedbeardmaxxed_as_you_guys_advised/

          I think a lot of this just shows that most of these guys just need better hygiene, a haircut, and maybe workout to lose weight or put on some muscle as needed.

          7 votes
          1. Staross
            Link Parent
            If you look at r/amiugly there's also a lot of perfectly fine looking people that thinks they are ugly, it's doesn't seem to be exceptional.

            If you look at r/amiugly there's also a lot of perfectly fine looking people that thinks they are ugly, it's doesn't seem to be exceptional.

            3 votes
          2. Wolf
            Link Parent
            I actually visited that sub before and came to the same conclusion.

            I actually visited that sub before and came to the same conclusion.

            1 vote
      3. [4]
        emdash
        Link Parent
        Yup. Easily fixed by going outside, getting a tan, maybe picking up a gym membership, and joining a club or two. What doesn't fix it? Bitching on the internet & plastic surgery.

        Every time one of these people posts a picture of themselves, they're an average, slightly nerdy looking white guy.

        Yup. Easily fixed by going outside, getting a tan, maybe picking up a gym membership, and joining a club or two. What doesn't fix it? Bitching on the internet & plastic surgery.

        1 vote
        1. Bishop
          Link Parent
          I mean, this does read a lot like something what would go in /r/thanksimcured. I don't imagine it's your average character that finds themselves socializing in these "incel" circles, or pursuing...

          I mean, this does read a lot like something what would go in /r/thanksimcured.

          I don't imagine it's your average character that finds themselves socializing in these "incel" circles, or pursuing plastic surgery to Chaddify themselves.

          I'll be the first to agree that the rants that some of their ilk post online are sexist, disgusting, and sometimes terrifying - though I don't think it can be ignored that one thing most of these incels need is to start regularly seeing a sex therapist.

          15 votes
        2. floppy
          Link Parent
          that's basically true. that part isn't necessarily true though. Nor it it easy for everyone.

          What doesn't fix it? Bitching on the internet & plastic surgery.

          that's basically true.

          Easily fixed by going outside, getting a tan, maybe picking up a gym membership, and joining a club or two.

          that part isn't necessarily true though. Nor it it easy for everyone.

          7 votes
        3. Hypersapien
          Link Parent
          My point is that they don't even have to do any of that. It would be entirely possible for them to get dates looking like that. It's the way they act that keeps women from wanting to be anywhere...

          My point is that they don't even have to do any of that. It would be entirely possible for them to get dates looking like that. It's the way they act that keeps women from wanting to be anywhere near them.

          4 votes
    2. [6]
      Bullmaestro
      Link Parent
      I don't necessarily agree with that statement. Incels were not born with that attitude. Their mindset has been conditioned through years of bullying in school more than anything else. Think about...

      I don't necessarily agree with that statement.

      Incels were not born with that attitude. Their mindset has been conditioned through years of bullying in school more than anything else. Think about it, their world view of 'Chads' and 'Staceys' resemble the jocks that would slam them into lockers and beat the shit into them, and the jockettes that would badmouth and taunt them. They're the dejected dorks and weirdos that have gone off on the deep end.

      There are also mental factors at play too. Incels that had gone on murderous rampages like Elliot Rodger had a rich history of depression and mental health issues on top of years of bullying. On top of this, some mental conditions such as autism spectrum disorder can be a social death sentence.

      If you want to point blame for the incel movement, blame society's failings. We have done hardly enough to curb bullying in schools while our track record at treating mental illnesses has been rather shit.

      9 votes
      1. [5]
        alexandria
        Link Parent
        Let's not forget the place that echo chambers like Reddit and 4chan do for radicalization. The incel community is part of the alt-right and was born directly from the pickup artist community. That...

        on top of years of bullying.

        Let's not forget the place that echo chambers like Reddit and 4chan do for radicalization. The incel community is part of the alt-right and was born directly from the pickup artist community. That is where the root ideas you see in the incel movement come from. The "Manosphere", as Rational Wiki calls it, is very much to blame here.

        See:
        https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Manosphere
        https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pick-up_artist
        https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Incel
        https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Neoreactionary_movement

        13 votes
        1. [4]
          Bullmaestro
          Link Parent
          Here's the way I see it, pick-up artists have made a living off of teaching people to adopt traditionally masculine traits. Humanity has evolved over millions of years to find certain traits...

          Here's the way I see it, pick-up artists have made a living off of teaching people to adopt traditionally masculine traits. Humanity has evolved over millions of years to find certain traits sexually attractive in a mate because these traits have benefited humanity's survival in some way. If these seduction strategies were ineffective, PUAs wouldn't be able to command top dollar prices for their seminars.

          Yes, civilization has evolved by leaps and bounds over the past few hundred years alone. We live in rather peaceful and abundant times. We no longer need to go out and scavenge or hunt for our food and we no longer need to fight off bears and wolves. But our brains and bodies haven't evolved around this because evolution is a very slow process. Much of our brain's functionality is primitive by comparison.

          Millennials are having far less sex than previous generations despite dating apps like Tinder, Bumble and Grindr theoretically making it easier than ever to date or hook up with someone. 28% of American men between 18 and 30 have reported having no sex in 2018, triple that of 2008's figures. That figure is 10% lower for women which already suggests that more women are sleeping with fewer men.

          Britain is following a similar trend with 1 in 8 people remaining virgins by the age of 26. Various reasons have been theorised, like our distraction with technology and even a hypersexual culture making people too anxious to have sex.

          Japan has even more young adult virgins, but this seems to affect both genders almost equally and has been largely been attributed to various crises in Japanese society (long working hours, karoshi, the rise in hikkikomori or social recluses that have rejected society.)

          I find the various manosphere movements (red pill, MGTOW, inceldom) and echo chambers that have grown their influence deeply concerning for other reasons. They've grown out of an ailing society that has become increasingly frustrated with a lack of sex, a lack of prosperity and a lack of opportunity. Little has been done to address these societal failings.

          6 votes
          1. Deimos
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            This is like saying "if psychics didn't have powers, they wouldn't be able to charge so much". PUA is just a particular form of self-help, a multi-billion dollar industry where people pay more out...

            If these seduction strategies were ineffective, PUAs wouldn't be able to command top dollar prices for their seminars.

            This is like saying "if psychics didn't have powers, they wouldn't be able to charge so much".

            PUA is just a particular form of self-help, a multi-billion dollar industry where people pay more out of aspirational hopes that the techniques will improve their lives than any proof that they actually do. A lot of the industry is predatory and relies on selling false hope to their audience (often repeatedly).

            8 votes
          2. dubteedub
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Just because they make a lot of money off grifting the dateless, doesn't mean they are right. Folks get conned out of their money all the time over various schemes, just look at Trump University...

            If these seduction strategies were ineffective, PUAs wouldn't be able to command top dollar prices for their seminars.

            Just because they make a lot of money off grifting the dateless, doesn't mean they are right. Folks get conned out of their money all the time over various schemes, just look at Trump University for example.

            8 votes
          3. alexandria
            Link Parent
            Quite frankly? That's because the culture that men grow up in is fundamentally damaging to both men and women, and women are (rightfully) starting to not buy that shit. Sorry but that's complete...

            That figure is 10% lower for women which already suggests that more women are sleeping with fewer men.

            Quite frankly? That's because the culture that men grow up in is fundamentally damaging to both men and women, and women are (rightfully) starting to not buy that shit.

            If these seduction strategies were ineffective, PUAs wouldn't be able to command top dollar prices for their seminars.

            Sorry but that's complete and utter crap. Money has no relation to whether something works, as evidenced by the billions that faith healers, quacks, and quasi-religious figures pull in year after year.

            1 vote
    3. unknown user
      Link Parent
      There is also this aspect: how your body is one thing, what you do with it is another thing. If you're not looking after yourself at all, and not wearing stuff that does not fit you, how naturally...

      There is also this aspect: how your body is one thing, what you do with it is another thing. If you're not looking after yourself at all, and not wearing stuff that does not fit you, how naturally beautiful you are is irrelevant. Looking good is like %10 natural beauty, %50 shower/dental care/etc., %25 grooming, %15 what you wear. Now if one's a pathetic 20yo that rarely takes a shower and wears the worst clothes out there, being the nicest guy out there or the hottest one (or any combination thereof) will not really matter. These guys seem to ignore that it is a tandem of three, and that what nature gave you is the small pony between two big sturdy white horses.

      3 votes
    4. nothis
      Link Parent
      For real. Every time I've seen an "incel" captured on video, he looks like the most normal guy on earth. Add one pinch of non-asshole personality, and he could find a girlfriend within a month.

      For real. Every time I've seen an "incel" captured on video, he looks like the most normal guy on earth. Add one pinch of non-asshole personality, and he could find a girlfriend within a month.

      2 votes
  2. [10]
    The_Fad
    Link
    How is an incel getting plastic surgery any different from a regular person getting plastic surgery, is my main question.

    How is an incel getting plastic surgery any different from a regular person getting plastic surgery, is my main question.

    17 votes
    1. [7]
      dubteedub
      Link Parent
      The argument the author makes throughout the piece is that the surgery actually reinforces the misogyny of incels, and does more harm than good. That seems to have a ring of truth to it to me...

      The argument the author makes throughout the piece is that the surgery actually reinforces the misogyny of incels, and does more harm than good. That seems to have a ring of truth to it to me given that most of these guys actually look extremely normal, if not outright attractive. So if they get surgery and then start having luck in the dating scene, it could reinforce their beliefs that women only care about looks and it really was impossible for them to date without the surgery. It could ignore the fact that they just feel more confident now or that they were not really trying before and hiding on internet forums.

      Here are a couple of quotes the author users that I think explain their argument.

      At one point near they end of the article the author discusses a conversation they had with Natatlie Wynn (Contrapoints) on the subject of transgender individuals such as herself who get surgery. The author then adds:

      Unlike transgender people who pursue surgery, of course, incels tend to be perpetrators, rather than targets, of violence and discrimination.

      Later on the author also includes this bit:

      For other incels, the anger they held on to even after their surgery suggests their motivation may be something closer to what feminist writer Jessica Valenti has described: “Incels are not a community of sad men that reflect a societal problem with loneliness. They’re a community of violent misogynists that reflect a societal problem with sexism and sexual entitlement.”

      And finally, several months after first meeting with the Dr. Eppley who these incels all seem to gravitate to for their surgery, the author goes back and asks how they are coping with finding out they are a de facto incel celebrity.

      He considers the question of whether the surgeries could end up reinforcing incels’ misogyny beyond his purview: “A doctor who puts in 500 breast implants, there will be someone who says, ‘He’s a terrible person. He’s making women sick for profit.’ ” Someone who operates on transgender patients will be told, “ ‘He shouldn’t have a medical license. That’s against God.’ ”

      But breast implants and gender affirmation don’t reinforce patients’ hatred of other groups of people, as incel’s procedures might, I point out. “How is it any different?” Eppley says. “You have no idea what someone’s motivations are, whether that’s trying to be more attractive and feel better about themselves” or something more nefarious.

      6 votes
      1. [6]
        The_Fad
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        In the interest of making my stance preemptively clear, I think incels are terribly misguided people following a dangerous worldview who need outreach and understanding to correct their...

        In the interest of making my stance preemptively clear, I think incels are terribly misguided people following a dangerous worldview who need outreach and understanding to correct their objectively bad behavior.

        Looking at this topic, I'm still not sure what the exact distinction is. The concern you point out re: expectations with the opposite sex doesn't seem unique to this situation. That's a concern that has always plagued plastic surgery. Barring genuine medical concerns people rarely get plastic surgery for themselves. They do it to increase their confidence (by way of getting more pleasant social attention) or for a partner or because they think a certain spot would look (to other people) better a certain way.

        So for example, this:

        The argument the author makes throughout the piece is that the surgery actually reinforces the misogyny of incels, and does more harm than good. That seems to have a ring of truth to it to me given that most of these guys actually look extremely normal, if not outright attractive. So if they get surgery and then start having luck in the dating scene, it could reinforce their beliefs that women only care about looks and it really was impossible for them to date without the surgery. It could ignore the fact that they just feel more confident now or that they were not really trying before and hiding on internet forums.

        Looks to me no different than this:

        The argument the author makes throughout the piece is that the surgery actually reinforces the low self esteem of people, and does more harm than good. That seems to have a ring of truth to it to me given that most of these people actually look extremely normal, if not outright attractive. So if they get surgery and then start having luck in the dating scene, it could reinforce their beliefs that people only care about looks and it really was impossible for them to date without the surgery.

        This is of course subjective opinion on my part; unfortunately I've found I can't base every opinion of mine on hard, evidenced, researched fact.

        With regard to the quotes you pointed out, these again felt more like hand-waving a genuine criticism of their central thesis rather than a proper rebuttal or refutation. The only difference between transgender plastic surgery and incel plastic surgery is that incels allegedly do it for hateful reasons? I definitely cannot get behind that reasoning. Wanting to tweak your physical appearance to be more subjectively attractive is much different than surgically changing your body because you feel like you were born into the wrong one.

        The difficulty is that there are many different thrusts of disagreement that I have not with the doctor necessarily but the author and what point they're trying to make. This behavior is no different than the exact same behavior that's been happening for many, many decades (centuries, even, depending on how we define modern plastic surgery) and as such the only purpose this piece serves is to bring further (negative) attention to a community that is already in desperate need of emotional help, whether they want to admit it or not.

        I get it, though. It's just a think piece. It's not bulletproof and it's not meant to be. I just find articles like this little more than fodder fueling the already glaring fire of division between us the world over. We're all human beings, first and foremost. Our concerns should be helping each other, not making vaguely threatening OP-ed points about tragically misinformed and misled young men.

        I guess my heart bleeds a little too much, sometimes. I don't know.

        5 votes
        1. [5]
          Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          Why does it have to be a rebuttal or refutation? Why can't it just be an exploration and exposition? Why can't it be showing you how things are, rather than judging those things? It's body...

          With regard to the quotes you pointed out, these again felt more like hand-waving a genuine criticism of their central thesis rather than a proper rebuttal or refutation.

          Why does it have to be a rebuttal or refutation? Why can't it just be an exploration and exposition? Why can't it be showing you how things are, rather than judging those things?

          The only difference between transgender plastic surgery and incel plastic surgery is that incels allegedly do it for hateful reasons? I definitely cannot get behind that reasoning.

          It's body dysmorphia in both cases, but the underlying cause is different.

          Transgender people want to reshape their bodies into the form that matches how they really feel inside. They don't want to feel like a woman/man but be continually mistaken for a man/woman.

          Meanwhile, incels want more sex. They feel like the world owes them a sex life, but they're missing out while everyone else is getting their share instead. They feel like women are manipulating the world. So they want to join in the manipulation by changing their face to beat those manipulative women at their own game. There's a large degree of sexism and misogyny in this worldview: that women are just sexual objects and it's wrong of them to deny men sex. There's also some externally directed self-hatred: the incels don't like how they look, but they direct that hatred at the women who reject them.

          Transgender people are getting plastic surgery to make themselves feel better. Incels are getting plastic surgery to manipulate other people.

          I just find articles like this little more than fodder fueling the already glaring fire of division between us the world over.

          I see it differently. It's an insight into a culture I'm not part of, and it helps me to understand a little bit better how those other people think. It allows me to empathise with them, to some degree. It's reducing divisions, rather than fuelling them.

          8 votes
          1. [2]
            mftrhu
            Link Parent
            It's not body dysmorphia. It's gender dysphoria, subtype body dysphoria. A gender dysphoric person might also have dysmorphia, but they are separate conditions, and, for one thing, the DSM says...

            It's body dysmorphia in both cases, but the underlying cause is different.

            Transgender people want to reshape their bodies into the form that matches how they really feel inside. They don't want to feel like a woman/man but be continually mistaken for a man/woman.

            It's not body dysmorphia. It's gender dysphoria, subtype body dysphoria. A gender dysphoric person might also have dysmorphia, but they are separate conditions, and, for one thing, the DSM says about the former that

            Body dysmorphic disorder should not be diagnosed if the preoccupation is limited to discomfort with or a desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics in an individual with gender dysphoria [...]

            For body dysmorphia the flaw is imagined, or greatly exaggerated. For gender dysphoria, the flaws are multiple (sex characteristics), not imagined at all, and would definitely not be considered "exaggerated" by anyone if a cis person was involved (e.g. gynaecomastia in a cis man).

            6 votes
            1. Algernon_Asimov
              Link Parent
              That's what I get for writing these things off the top of my head, and not checking my facts! My point was that, regardless of the terms, both groups of people - incels and transgender people -...

              It's not body dysmorphia. It's gender dysphoria,

              That's what I get for writing these things off the top of my head, and not checking my facts!

              My point was that, regardless of the terms, both groups of people - incels and transgender people - are unhappy with their bodies, although for entirely different reasons. And their motives for changing their bodies are also entirely different.

              3 votes
          2. [2]
            Gaywallet
            Link Parent
            Dysmorphia and dysphoria are two very different things. Dysmorphia is fundamentally an issue with perception. You might perceive your stomach is much larger than it actually is, and therefore...

            body dysmorphia in both cases

            Dysmorphia and dysphoria are two very different things.

            Dysmorphia is fundamentally an issue with perception. You might perceive your stomach is much larger than it actually is, and therefore modify your behavior because of it.

            Dysphoria is an emotional or mental discomfort with the current state of being. There is no issue of perception. You might be upset that your body is male, when you think it should be female.

            Dysmorphia is believing your body is a certain way, dysphoria would be believing your body should be a certain way. It's an important distinction and they should not be conflated.

            5 votes
    2. nsz
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      The author kind of points out this difference to the plastic surgeon interviewed; There is more surrounding this snippet even if it's kinda long.

      The author kind of points out this difference to the plastic surgeon interviewed;

      He considers the question of whether the surgeries could end up reinforcing incels’ misogyny beyond his purview: “A doctor who puts in 500 breast implants, there will be someone who says, ‘He’s a terrible person. He’s making women sick for profit.’ ” Someone who operates on transgender patients will be told, “ ‘He shouldn’t have a medical license. That’s against God.’ ”
      But breast implants and gender affirmation don’t reinforce patients’ hatred of other groups of people, as incel’s procedures might, I point out. “How is it any different?” Eppley says. “You have no idea what someone’s motivations are, whether that’s trying to be more attractive and feel better about themselves” or something more nefarious.

      There is more surrounding this snippet even if it's kinda long.

      4 votes
    3. nothis
      Link Parent
      Spend 5 minutes in an incel forum and you know.

      Spend 5 minutes in an incel forum and you know.

  3. [7]
    patience_limited
    Link
    Reading this story, I was struck by the parallels with another competitively toxic online community - pro-ana. There've been a few Reddit threads about this, but this sums it up:

    Reading this story, I was struck by the parallels with another competitively toxic online community - pro-ana.

    There've been a few Reddit threads about this, but this sums it up:

    girlCtrl-C • Aug 31, 2016, 9:20 PM
    This is my usual spiel: "Incel" is pro-ana for guys. They have depression and social anxiety problems and their lives are kind of crap, and those things aren't necessarily their fault. But rather than make some attempt to seek treatment or be better people or make something of their lives, they find internet communities where there are sympathetic people. Which seems great, at first. Until suddenly they're all one-upping each other for how lonely they are. How hopeless their situations. The lengths to which they've supposedly gone to deal with the problem--big crazy things yes, "went to a variety of therapists until one clicked and took antidepressants and did group activities in which they treated women like human beings" no. In their little subgroup, the currency of the in-group is being outcast by everyone else, and they no longer want to get better. They might want to have sex, but they don't want to be socially functional adults in the way that most people do incidentally to having sex.

    Depression does make you "lazy"--more like frozen--about doing things to actually improve your life. I'll give them that. But it doesn't force you to take out your negative feelings on other people and start denying that women are human beings. That part's a choice.

    9 votes
    1. [6]
      Thunder-ten-tronckh
      Link Parent
      Oppression currency is a problem I've noticed in a lot of social justice oriented communities—it gives the speaker unimpeachable credibility and over time can distort real problems to comical...

      Oppression currency is a problem I've noticed in a lot of social justice oriented communities—it gives the speaker unimpeachable credibility and over time can distort real problems to comical extremes. The ease with which communities can insulate themselves from outside perspectives is frightening.

      4 votes
      1. [3]
        dubteedub
        Link Parent
        I dont really see a pro anorexic community as a social justice group.

        I dont really see a pro anorexic community as a social justice group.

        6 votes
        1. alyaza
          Link Parent
          yeah, no, pro-ana is its own incredibly weird shit. there are some social justice elements tied into it because pro-ana tends to overlap with spaces that social justice advocates tend to inhabit...

          yeah, no, pro-ana is its own incredibly weird shit. there are some social justice elements tied into it because pro-ana tends to overlap with spaces that social justice advocates tend to inhabit like tumblr, but almost all of the "social justice" involving pro-ana people is either disingenuous shit from them, or people who happen to be social justice advocates who are too woke for their own good and start talking utter nonsense.

          3 votes
      2. [2]
        patience_limited
        Link Parent
        Hadn't heard the term "oppression currency" before, thanks! In any case it's the competitive appeal for in-group solidarity and support, when the value and goal frameworks you're competing in are...

        Hadn't heard the term "oppression currency" before, thanks!

        In any case it's the competitive appeal for in-group solidarity and support, when the value and goal frameworks you're competing in are toxic to all concerned, that explains the problematic nature of these communities.

        2 votes
        1. Thunder-ten-tronckh
          Link Parent
          Idk how legitimate of a term it is, but it seems to describe well the value a speaker can gain in certain groups by having experienced (or appearing to have experienced) oppression of some kind.

          Idk how legitimate of a term it is, but it seems to describe well the value a speaker can gain in certain groups by having experienced (or appearing to have experienced) oppression of some kind.

  4. [22]
    dubteedub
    (edited )
    Link
    I was really intrigued by this article today given that Contrapoints had just done a video on Beauty following her recent feminization surgery and has previously talked some of the similarities in...

    I was really intrigued by this article today given that Contrapoints had just done a video on Beauty following her recent feminization surgery and has previously talked some of the similarities in her experience as a trans woman and those of incels both obsessing over "millimeters of bone."

    Some wanted more elemental improvements. More than pudgy flesh or pocked skin, it was their bones that made incels unfuckable, they believed. Their quarrel was with the very collagen that had ossified in their mother’s womb, the calcium phosphate with the potential to outlast civilizations, maybe even souls — or to be weeded out of the gene pool. “The difference between a Chad and an incel is literally a few millimeters of bone,” reads one meme.

    What always gets me about the whole incel situation is how these guys are so obsessed over their facial features and claim that they are ugly, but really they all look super normal, and many are not unattractive at all.

    In fact, many of the comparison pictures for when they try to photoshop themselves to be more "chad" comes off as kind of off putting.

    https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/fashion/daily/2019/05/22/magazine/incel/incel-06.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.jpg

    https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/fashion/daily/2019/05/22/magazine/incel/incel-05.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.jpg

    https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/fashion/daily/2019/05/22/magazine/incel/incel-07.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.jpg

    https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/fashion/daily/2019/05/22/magazine/incel/incel-08.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.jpg

    8 votes
    1. [17]
      NaraVara
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Man I was expecting to see some seriously repulsive faces in the before pics, but every one of these guys looks perfectly normal. If they wanted to look more "chadly" spending an hour a day at the...

      Man I was expecting to see some seriously repulsive faces in the before pics, but every one of these guys looks perfectly normal. If they wanted to look more "chadly" spending an hour a day at the gym would do them way more good than trying to look like they were drawn by Bruce Timm.

      I feel so bad for these guys. They've absorbed so many weird ideas and don't seem to have any sources of validation anywhere in their lives. And their toxic attitudes about women likely guarantee they never will.

      8 votes
      1. [15]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        Do you (and everyone else who proposes this solution, such as @emdash elsewhere in this thread) realise that this is just another way of telling men that their problems can be fixed through...

        If they wanted to look more "chadly" spending an hour a day at the gym would do them way more good

        Do you (and everyone else who proposes this solution, such as @emdash elsewhere in this thread) realise that this is just another way of telling men that their problems can be fixed through physical manipulation of their bodies? "If only you had more muscles" is exactly the same as "If only you had a stronger chin". They're both sending exactly the same message: that men need to fix their physical appearance in order to be happier.

        13 votes
        1. NaraVara
          Link Parent
          The point isn’t that they need the muscles. It’s that even if we grant that their appearance is the problem, there is a more typical and healthy way of working on themselves that’s perfectly...

          The point isn’t that they need the muscles. It’s that even if we grant that their appearance is the problem, there is a more typical and healthy way of working on themselves that’s perfectly accessible to them without needing to go under the knife, but they’re not doing it.

          I don’t even know what it is, but I think this is some kind of relative to a death urge/instinct. I don’t think they want to make slow, steady progress at self-improvement. I think the motivation here is a sort of self-hatred. Instead of wanting to be better versions of themselves, they want to end themselves and be reincarnated as someone new. But as abject materialists they’re too disconnected from any sense of community or spirit to find any kind of renewal through relationships or spiritual experience so just getting a new face is the best they can do.

          To think that the outside appearance is enough to be a new man is to reject any sense of having interiority. It’s depressing to even think there are people going through life feeling like that about themselves.

          4 votes
        2. [13]
          emdash
          Link Parent
          Where'd you get that idea from my comment? Going to the gym doesn't necessarily mean muscle building. I'm happy with looking athletic and that's it; and going to the gym is a good way to keep...

          Where'd you get that idea from my comment? Going to the gym doesn't necessarily mean muscle building. I'm happy with looking athletic and that's it; and going to the gym is a good way to keep mildly in shape.

          You don't need it to be happier, but it's a truth—whether you like it or not—that appearance is often considered one of many attractive positives for a partner. That's just fact. I think too much weight is given to it, but it'd be a lie to say people's looks didn't factor into attractiveness.

          2 votes
          1. [12]
            Algernon_Asimov
            Link Parent
            I got that idea from this: Almost all the "fixes" you suggested were physical ones. Rather than suggesting that an average, slightly nerdy looking white guy might do better to find girls who like...

            I got that idea from this:

            they're an average, slightly nerdy looking white guy.

            Easily fixed by going outside, getting a tan, maybe picking up a gym membership,

            Almost all the "fixes" you suggested were physical ones.

            Rather than suggesting that an average, slightly nerdy looking white guy might do better to find girls who like average, slightly nerdy looking white guys, or that he could improve his personality or make himself more interesting, you suggested that he fix his looks by going to gym and getting a tan.

            Maybe I'm reading more into it than was there, but I've seen hundreds of comments like this. Whenever a man says he's having trouble getting a date, "go to a gym" is the most common response.

            8 votes
            1. [11]
              dubteedub
              Link Parent
              Is suggesting someone try exercising really a bad idea though? You suggest that they could improve their personality or make themselves more interesting. I would suggest that going to the gym or...

              Maybe I'm reading more into it than was there, but I've seen hundreds of comments like this. Whenever a man says he's having trouble getting a date, "go to a gym" is the most common response.

              Is suggesting someone try exercising really a bad idea though? You suggest that they could improve their personality or make themselves more interesting. I would suggest that going to the gym or finding other ways of exercising could do just that. Working out is not just about building muscle or losing weight, but it also supports mental health by building confidence, releasing endorphins, and building a new routine.

              In this era of exponential growth of the “metabolic syndrome” and obesity, lifestyle modifications could be a cost-effective way to improve health and quality of life. Lifestyle modifications can assume especially great importance in individuals with serious mental illness. Many of these individuals are at a high risk of chronic diseases associated with sedentary behavior and medication side effects, including diabetes, hyperlipidemia, and cardiovascular disease. An essential component of lifestyle modification is exercise. The importance of exercise is not adequately understood or appreciated by patients and mental health professionals alike. Evidence has suggested that exercise may be an often-neglected intervention in mental health care.

              https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470658/

              A lot of these incel guys really would likely benefit hugely from just finding a reason to get out of the house more and interact with people in real life. Going to the gym could be a gateway to meet people, build some self-worth, and see that working on certain qualities of their life can lead to real results. That they are not doomed to a sexless life due to their skull shape, but they can make changes if they are willing to try.

              1 vote
              1. [9]
                alyaza
                Link Parent
                the problem is that it's a dumb, reductivist cliche that people throw without regard for nuance or context like it does the same shit for everybody when it's greatly variable like most...

                I would suggest that going to the gym or finding other ways of exercising could do just that. Working out is not just about building muscle or losing weight, but it also supports mental health by building confidence, releasing endorphins, and building a new routine.
                A lot of these incel guys really would likely benefit hugely from just finding a reason to get out of the house more and interact with people in real life. Going to the gym could be a gateway to meet people, build some self-worth, and see that working on certain qualities of their life can lead to real results. That they are not doomed to a sexless life due to their skull shape, but they can make changes if they are willing to try.

                the problem is that it's a dumb, reductivist cliche that people throw without regard for nuance or context like it does the same shit for everybody when it's greatly variable like most non-medicinal treatments for mental and psychological disorders. exercising or going to a gym is not going to make me, as a suicidally depressed, potentially borderline person, not want to kill myself--it'd be more likely, if anything, because i am mortified of my self-image and incredibly socially anxious. that's why, when i work out, i do it at home (and it doesn't really help there either, because it turns out that one thing isn't miraculously getting in the way of me suddenly feeling better as a person). there is a lot more to mental health than one single dimension or variable, and while things like going to a gym can help some people, it's super reductivist to act like little things like that are what's stopping incels from getting better and not being gigantic pieces of shit. incels, like the rest of us, follow many trajectories to get to where they are, and they're not all one homogeneous blob of people. you can't Gym Membership them all out of inceldom.

                4 votes
                1. [8]
                  dubteedub
                  Link Parent
                  I posted a link to this elsewhere in this topic, but the top all time post on the subreddit /r/incelselfies is actually a guy showing progress from going to the gym, grooming, and shows that he...

                  I posted a link to this elsewhere in this topic, but the top all time post on the subreddit /r/incelselfies is actually a guy showing progress from going to the gym, grooming, and shows that he was able to get a girlfriend.
                  https://www.reddit.com/r/Incelselfies/comments/b2mz2y/update_gymaxxedbeardmaxxed_as_you_guys_advised/

                  Sure, this is not going to work for all incels, some of them are too far gone, but posts like this one show that there is a potential way out, that the black pill is not real, and they can actually improve themselves.

                  Obviously, exercise is not going to magically fix mental health problems for everyone and is only effective up to a point, but it is undeniable that it is helpful in reducing symptoms of depression and other issues.

                  1 vote
                  1. [7]
                    alyaza
                    Link Parent
                    you basically just agreed with me, and all i said on the matter of exercise is that it is greatly variable in how effective it is for people when it comes to treating mental disorders because it's...

                    Sure, this is not going to work for all incels

                    you basically just agreed with me, and all i said on the matter of exercise is that it is greatly variable in how effective it is for people when it comes to treating mental disorders because it's non-medicinal (it works for some people and for others it does not, and most of your sources literally say that it often does, not that it always does and that it alone cannot treat things like severe depression, just supplement the medication for some people), so i honestly have no idea why you're trying to dispute what i said.

                    1 vote
                    1. [6]
                      dubteedub
                      Link Parent
                      When you responded to my comment calling it a "a dumb, reductivist cliche" and that "you can't Gym Membership them all out of inceldom" it came off to me that you thought my argument was...

                      When you responded to my comment calling it a "a dumb, reductivist cliche" and that "you can't Gym Membership them all out of inceldom" it came off to me that you thought my argument was completely bullshit.

                      My comment was "a lot of these incel guys really would likely benefit" from exercise. I never said it was a be all end all solution or that all incels / folks with mental health issues were "one homogeneous blob of people", but that it could potentially help.

                      I also wanted to share at least one instance where an incel did in fact gym membership himself out of inceldom as an example that it can be effective.

                      1. [5]
                        alyaza
                        Link Parent
                        to be clear, i was referring to the idea of Go To Gym, Get Ripped as reductivist and cliche, because it is. literally everybody hears that advice, especially on reddit, and even if you mean well...

                        When you responded to my comment calling it a "a dumb, reductivist cliche" and that "you can't Gym Membership them all out of inceldom" it came off to me that you thought my argument was completely bullshit.
                        My comment was "a lot of these incel guys really would likely benefit" from exercise. I never said it was a be all end all solution or that all incels / folks with mental health issues were "one homogeneous blob of people", but that it could potentially help.

                        to be clear, i was referring to the idea of Go To Gym, Get Ripped as reductivist and cliche, because it is. literally everybody hears that advice, especially on reddit, and even if you mean well it's been so driven into the ground that it just means nothing to most people at this point. it's schlock, in essence, and not even very helpful schlock at that for the reasons i specified: exercise works for some people, but doesn't for others. it might work for some incels, yes, but it won't for others, and it's already a loaded phrase that even a lot of regular people don't respond to because it's bordering on useless as advice with how often it gets bandied about. so even if, for some reason, they take your advice, you probably only have a coin flip's odds of even helping them by telling them to hit the gym. the approach to these people, if you're going to do that, really needs to be more nuanced than that.

                        3 votes
                        1. [4]
                          Gaywallet
                          Link Parent
                          I think there might have been a miscommunication here. Exercise absolutely should be, in most cases, the first suggestion to these individuals. It should be the first suggestion because it's...

                          I think there might have been a miscommunication here. Exercise absolutely should be, in most cases, the first suggestion to these individuals. It should be the first suggestion because it's relatively simple to do and has statistically proven, replicable, and has such strong outcomes.

                          A complete plan of action, however, is absolutely incomplete with only a single solution. You are right to point out that more is necessary. Exercise will not fix all of these individuals and may not even reduce the symptoms for some. In fact, it may be precisely the wrong suggestion for certain individuals as their anxiety about exercising may aggravate the issue or reduce their compliance.

                          However, you shouldn't be dismissive either just because it didn't work for you. It works for some, and the strength of your dismissal makes it sound like it shouldn't be suggested for anyone, which I'm sure is not the intent.

                          3 votes
                          1. [3]
                            alyaza
                            Link Parent
                            this is a pretty good way to get laughed off by the overwhelming majority of incels and not ever taken seriously, honestly. again, pretty much everybody has heard that advice, and it's been a...

                            I think there might have been a miscommunication here. Exercise absolutely should be, in most cases, the first suggestion to these individuals. It should be the first suggestion because it's relatively simple to do and has statistically proven, replicable, and has such strong outcomes.

                            this is a pretty good way to get laughed off by the overwhelming majority of incels and not ever taken seriously, honestly. again, pretty much everybody has heard that advice, and it's been a reddit meme for as long as i've used reddit that the first thing you do is Hit the Gym; you're not going to suddenly do something because you tell incels the same shit they've heard a hundred times, and you'll see this in how explosively many of them react to even a hint of the notion. you're coming at this from the perspective of bettering these people like they are basically normal and they need to just pick themselves up by their bootstraps--but the vast, vast lot of them are not and need something that is considerably more nuanced than an ordinary plan of action you might give to someone. that means, at times, discarding the conventional wisdom of how you do things with people.

                            1 vote
                            1. [2]
                              Gaywallet
                              Link Parent
                              I am not saying the suggestion should be "hit the gym" at all, and I completely understand this as I avoided exercise for a long time, despite it being quite literally the best treatment for...

                              I am not saying the suggestion should be "hit the gym" at all, and I completely understand this as I avoided exercise for a long time, despite it being quite literally the best treatment for depression available.

                              It is possible to encourage and suggest exercise without it involving the gym at all.

                              Again, I am not disagreeing with you. You need additional plans of action and you are right to point out that you should not come at them with any suggestions which will put them on the defensive.

                              3 votes
                              1. alyaza
                                Link Parent
                                well, my point is more that period, a lot of incels are volatile if you lead with anything even in that ballpark. exercise tends to be something you need to broach after you get to know them (if...

                                It is possible to encourage and suggest exercise without it involving the gym at all.

                                well, my point is more that period, a lot of incels are volatile if you lead with anything even in that ballpark. exercise tends to be something you need to broach after you get to know them (if you get to know them), so it's bad advice to say to lead with something like that even if that's what you'd ordinarily do in a case like this. if you don't know them, they're likely to just lash out and tell you to go fuck yourself because self-betterment of that sort is not in their agenda and it's been beaten into their heads so many times that if they just Stopped Being Loser Bitches and Buffed Up, they'd become Chad that many of them tend to just immediately discard anybody who pushes them in that direction.

                                2 votes
              2. Algernon_Asimov
                Link Parent
                I don't disagree. I know that exercise of any kind is good for mental health. Even just walking for 20 minutes per day can improve mental health, as well as physical health. But noone ever...

                I would suggest that going to the gym or finding other ways of exercising could do just that.

                I don't disagree. I know that exercise of any kind is good for mental health. Even just walking for 20 minutes per day can improve mental health, as well as physical health.

                But noone ever suggests other ways of exercising. If one was trying to build a man's interpersonal interactions as well as get him exercising, one would suggest he join a sports team of some kind. That's how to get men socialising: put them in a team of other people in a context of training and playing together. But noone ever suggests this. It's all "go to the gym". The core message is about building muscles and toning the body, not releasing endorphins and socialising.

                Remember the context of this - especially for incels. They sincerely believe that it's all about their looks, not their personality. When incels talk about "gymceling", they're aiming to change how their body looks, not how their brain works. And they're not alone in this. Even though incels' attitudes in this area are extreme, they're still part of a wider culture among males that more muscles is better. So, when one man tells another man to go to the gym, he's telling the other man to build his body, not his brain.

                When I see men telling each other to take up a sport or even take a walk, I'll believe it's about more than just building muscles.

                3 votes
      2. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. Amarok
          Link Parent
          Just wait until the sex robots land, if you think we have problems now. Rather than working on themselves and real relationships, I think a hell of a lot of people are going to just opt for the...

          Just wait until the sex robots land, if you think we have problems now. Rather than working on themselves and real relationships, I think a hell of a lot of people are going to just opt for the robot maid/butler option that has sex as a bonus. Dating may well end up endangered and marriage a fluke relic of the past.

          I can't see the current culture that seems hell bent on pitting women and men against each other helping with that, either. I wonder if it'll get to the point where the resulting population decline forces laws into play to get people to continue procreating - such as a major increase in tax credit for having children.

          3 votes
    2. [4]
      Bullmaestro
      Link Parent
      I dunno, man. The chad photoshops definitely look better for #2 and #4, probably because the well-developed and wider jawline is actually attractive. In #3 it looks incredibly fake and falls into...

      I dunno, man. The chad photoshops definitely look better for #2 and #4, probably because the well-developed and wider jawline is actually attractive. In #3 it looks incredibly fake and falls into the uncanny valley, while for #1 it improved the guy's hair more than anything else.

      Why do you think the gender-swapping Snapchat filter literally adds a chad-like jawline and neckbeard to any woman?

      1. Gaywallet
        Link Parent
        As someone who's attracted to men, I disagree. They do not look more attractive to me in the after picture.

        The chad photoshops definitely look better for #2 and #4, probably because the well-developed and wider jawline is actually attractive

        As someone who's attracted to men, I disagree. They do not look more attractive to me in the after picture.

        6 votes
      2. [2]
        dubteedub
        Link Parent
        I think the other faces just look more natural. I think the article addresses why it seems off putting (at least to me) a bit here: For the most part, all some of these guys need is maybe a better...

        I think the other faces just look more natural. I think the article addresses why it seems off putting (at least to me) a bit here:

        Ironically, as Mike and his friends were obsessing over “GigaChads” who looked like models, the real-life fashion industry was beginning to court more eclectic faces, whose curves and acne and wrinkles and grooming seemed only to enhance their beauty. The Chad face was, if anything, a bulwark against that kind of progress: Its retrograde look was the point.

        For the most part, all some of these guys need is maybe a better haircut and more attention to grooming.

        1. Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          That might be an effect of the "after" faces being digitally manipulated. That introduces some artificiality to their looks.

          I think the other faces just look more natural.

          That might be an effect of the "after" faces being digitally manipulated. That introduces some artificiality to their looks.

          4 votes
  5. [8]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. krg
      Link Parent
      Yea, as I stated in my (updated) comment, seems they're just taking a buzzword and applying it to otherwise "normal" dudes (for better, or worse) for the clicks. I guess they're trying to make...

      Yea, as I stated in my (updated) comment, seems they're just taking a buzzword and applying it to otherwise "normal" dudes (for better, or worse) for the clicks. I guess they're trying to make some tenuous connection between male plastic surgery and some incel forum dedicated to how they look.

      5 votes
    2. [2]
      Algernon_Asimov
      Link Parent
      If Truth4Lie self-identifies as an incel, thinks like an incel, and behaves like an incel... he's part of the incel culture even if he's not actually celibate. And, if a writer is investigating...

      If Truth4Lie self-identifies as an incel, thinks like an incel, and behaves like an incel... he's part of the incel culture even if he's not actually celibate. And, if a writer is investigating the incel culture, someone who's part of the culture is a good example to use.

      I also didn't see any mention of Truth4Lie having an ex-girlfriend. Not that it matters: he can still consider himself involuntarily celibate if his last relationship was years ago (the name is "involuntarily celibate", not "involuntarily virgin").

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          I missed that. "Celibate" =/= "virgin". Celibacy is a current state of not having sex for a prolonged period. If I have sex once when I'm 18, and then not again for the next 10 years, I am...

          The article mentions "why his ex didn’t love him".

          I missed that.

          to make a piece about incels and not even clarify if the profiled person is a virgin is bad.

          "Celibate" =/= "virgin". Celibacy is a current state of not having sex for a prolonged period. If I have sex once when I'm 18, and then not again for the next 10 years, I am celibate even though I lost my virginity.

          Also, even if you're going to define "incel" as a virgin, there's no proof that Truth4Lie ever had sex. How do you know his ex wasn't a high school fling with whom he never got past some kissing and fondling?

          he seems more like a madman who found a community accepting of his misogyny and insanity rather than the classical incel, which is a virgin that has no idea how to get a relationship and has become embittered and hostile to women as a response, that's been portrayed for years.

          Ah, but the "classical incel" is not the modern incel. Have you not read the articles about "How a support group for the dateless became one of the internet’s most dangerous subcultures."? Don't get caught by the etymological fallacy of assuming that, because the original people who called themselves "involuntary celibates" were poor sex-deprived people, the current people calling themselves "incels" are the same innocent types. These days, there's a lot more misogyny and insanity in the mix. Innocent sex-deprived people don't get into cars and run down innocent people on the street; that sort of violence and hatred is coming from a different place.

          If incel is framed this way, then it basically replaces the word "misogynist" for me which then obfuscates the young, actually virgin men that started the incel community in the first place.

          umm... The first "incel" was a woman. Even your etymological fallacy is based on a fallacious assumption.

          The modern incel has taken over the "incel" label. At best, your so-called classical incels are a minority of the current-day group known as "incels".

          5 votes
    3. [4]
      hhh
      Link Parent
      being an incel is less of a state (although it certainly is) but more of a mindset. it’s mostly about hating women, believing oneself to be doomed (the blackpill) and that women are inferior and...

      being an incel is less of a state (although it certainly is) but more of a mindset. it’s mostly about hating women, believing oneself to be doomed (the blackpill) and that women are inferior and vile creatures and they’re the reason one can’t get laid.

      2 votes
      1. [4]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [2]
          hhh
          Link Parent
          incel is used to denote the online community. it isn’t the same as not being able to get laid, although most incels aren’t. incel != involuntary celibate, even though it might’ve when the...

          incel is used to denote the online community. it isn’t the same as not being able to get laid, although most incels aren’t. incel != involuntary celibate, even though it might’ve when the “movement” first started.

          all incels are misogynists but not all misogynists are incels. similarly, most/all incels are involuntary celibates but not every (actually most people) who are involuntary celibates aren’t incels.

          incels have a belief system, lore, and websites the frequent (previously r/incels but that was banned). it’s a culture, again, not a state

          6 votes
          1. [2]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. hhh
              Link Parent
              that’s true, there is a lot of overlap (now more than ever). I still think a distinction is meaningful as there’s a lot of difference between incels and regular run-of-the-mill misogynists even...

              that’s true, there is a lot of overlap (now more than ever). I still think a distinction is meaningful as there’s a lot of difference between incels and regular run-of-the-mill misogynists even though they share many similarities.

              It’d be like calling all conservatives alt-right just because the latter dominates online conservative discourse

              I think you’re agreeing with me but we’re just using different terminology. someone who can’t get laid but wants to is...i’m guessing most people who can’t get laid. i’m willig to bet though that few of them self-describe as incels, which are a vocal online ministry. I think it’s generally understood online that the term “incel” refers to the misogynistic kind I talked about earlier.

              2 votes
        2. dubteedub
          Link Parent
          Well the term incel is supposed to be involuntary celibate. Not having sex alone doesn't make someone an incel. It is the belief they are not having sex because they are doomed to perpetual...

          Well the term incel is supposed to be involuntary celibate. Not having sex alone doesn't make someone an incel.

          It is the belief they are not having sex because they are doomed to perpetual failure because of something out of their control, as well as a belief that women are all evil people that only have sex with the top 10% of attractive people or some other nonsense.

          2 votes
  6. [5]
    Bullmaestro
    (edited )
    Link
    To be honest I actually think women are just as if not more judgemental than men when it comes to looks. Okcupid released a blog post called 'Your Looks And Your Inbox' several years ago. Sadly,...

    To be honest I actually think women are just as if not more judgemental than men when it comes to looks.

    Okcupid released a blog post called 'Your Looks And Your Inbox' several years ago. Sadly, they nuked their blog from orbit for some reason but the post has been archived. They analysed male and female rating habits across the site and found that women rated 80% of men as lower than average. It is important to note that Quickmatch used to allow users to rate profiles out of 5 stars until they switched to a standard 'Like' and 'Pass' system similar to Tinder.

    Similar results can be seen on websites like Photofeeler specifically defined for rating photos. Male dating photos are rated a lot lower than female ones are.

    For a more extreme example, there was also a r/incels poster who posed as a fake male model/child molester on Tinder (using photos of an actual male model) and had women flock to him. He backed this up with screenshots and video evidence of him swiping through his phone. Whilst certainly compelling, it is worth noting that this guy could have easily faked aspects of his experiment, such as changing the profile description at the very last second.

    3 votes
    1. [4]
      Gaywallet
      Link Parent
      Just because they rated lower does not mean they are more judgmental. It's possible that looks factor very little into who they choose to match with. Even if it doesn't, who they match with and...

      Just because they rated lower does not mean they are more judgmental. It's possible that looks factor very little into who they choose to match with. Even if it doesn't, who they match with and who they actually date or sleep with are very different metrics.

      I also think there's additional confounding variables. As a bisexual male who looks at both male and female profiles regularly, men tend to have much more boring photos, tend to be worse at selecting which photos are good photos (good lighting, good angles, good expressions, etc.), and tend to have less professionally taken photos than women do. You also need to consider how one photo looks in the context of other photos as well as a profile in general. The photos are a tool to tell a story, and women tend to pay closer attention to this than men do. Probably because they are pushed to care more about their appearance than men are by society.

      9 votes
      1. Bullmaestro
        Link Parent
        That is a very good point. Okcupid have released other statistics supporting this. Photos tend to be rated more highly if there are pets in the picture, if you are doing something interesting, if...

        I also think there's additional confounding variables. As a bisexual male who looks at both male and female profiles regularly, men tend to have much more boring photos, tend to be worse at selecting which photos are good photos (good lighting, good angles, good expressions, etc.), and tend to have less professionally taken photos than women do

        That is a very good point. Okcupid have released other statistics supporting this. Photos tend to be rated more highly if there are pets in the picture, if you are doing something interesting, if the photo looks like it was professionally taken, if it's a naturally taken (not a bathroom selfie) body shot, etc. For somebody of lower social status, these photos are much harder to take.

        I would also say that fashion is a good factor to consider. Women care a lot about fashion and they will actually spend lots of time shopping for clothes, make-up, underwear and fragrances. There's a reason why most clothes shops and department stores have multiple floors dedicated to women's clothes and at most a small corner dedicated to menswear.

        6 votes
      2. [2]
        unknown user
        Link Parent
        cc @Bullmaestro Note that the possible root cause of all this is that being good at these as a man is stigmatised as feminine, and thus men fail at these more often. Furthermore, men refusing...

        As a bisexual male who looks at both male and female profiles regularly, men tend to have much more boring photos, tend to be worse at selecting which photos are good photos (good lighting, good angles, good expressions, etc.), and tend to have less professionally taken photos than women do.

        cc @Bullmaestro

        Note that the possible root cause of all this is that being good at these as a man is stigmatised as feminine, and thus men fail at these more often. Furthermore, men refusing sexual advances from women is stigmatised as a non-masculine behaviour. So possibly most men ignore these topics and don't learn as well as they could.

        Selfie tips: 1) put the timer on, tap shoot, then adjust; 2) it's about you, so emphasise you; 3) take some of them, they are an important cultural thing now, and practice makes perfect; 4) fuck stigma. That last thing is really interesting: I'd get tense taking a pic of myself in my room by myself. Many guys I know get tense doing them or straight out shy away. The lengths we are made to go to not be "gay" or "girly" is more idiotic than the stigma we associate with these concepts.

        3 votes
        1. Gaywallet
          Link Parent
          I would caution against saying it's all attributable to a single root cause. There's more to it than that. For example, men don't really scrap book or spend time looking at photos in the way that...

          the possible root cause

          I would caution against saying it's all attributable to a single root cause. There's more to it than that.

          For example, men don't really scrap book or spend time looking at photos in the way that women often do. It's a social activity that men typically don't participate in.

          Men also utilize social media in different patterns than women typically do. They tend to post more narratives and text than they do pictures.

          Female culture, for better or for worse, tends to spend a lot of time focusing on appearance. Not just physical appearance, but emotional and intellectual appearances as well. How you act in certain company, such as what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, is stressed quite a bit more among women than men. Women compliment other women on adhering to standards of beauty or finding colors or fits that work well with their body and complexion. Unfortunately they also talk negatively about other women when they do not adhere.

          There are, quite frankly, a lot of factors that go into the why, and we shouldn't try to be too reductionist and try and blame it on a single root cause. The reality is that for each person there's probably several causes and the weights of these causes will depend on personality and upbringing.

          3 votes
  7. ssgjrie
    Link
    Zero. This is how I look. People should care more about their hygiene, the way they behave and think about others, etc. A pretty face isn't going to sustain a relationship when you can't respect...

    Zero. This is how I look.

    People should care more about their hygiene, the way they behave and think about others, etc. A pretty face isn't going to sustain a relationship when you can't respect your partner, when you only think about yourself, when you're smelly, and so on.

    Also, I don't understand why so many are desperate to find a partner. For some it's like it's a requirement. They put this massive pressure on themselves and go bananas when someone says "no". It's crazy.

    2 votes
  8. mrbig
    Link
    I say this on Reddit all the time: I am actually literally FAT. I look normal. I never had a problem getting the attention of women, and still don’t. Incels complain about women only wanting...

    I say this on Reddit all the time: I am actually literally FAT. I look normal. I never had a problem getting the attention of women, and still don’t. Incels complain about women only wanting “chads”, but they’re extremely inflexible themselves. Not every beautiful woman looks like Scarlet Johanson, folks!!!!

    2 votes
  9. Capn_HAXX
    Link
    This is terribly sad. This might work for some but at the end of the day it's their ugly personality holding them back

    This is terribly sad. This might work for some but at the end of the day it's their ugly personality holding them back

    2 votes
  10. floppy
    Link
    Just another symptom of widespread mental problems in modern humans IMHO. Since the industrial revolution we have been changing our lifestyles exponentially, certainly faster than nature can adapt...

    Just another symptom of widespread mental problems in modern humans IMHO. Since the industrial revolution we have been changing our lifestyles exponentially, certainly faster than nature can adapt and shape us to cope with the changes, and often faster than society can adapt as well. At some point people will break under the pressure. This sort of growth is not sustainable, I think.

    To answer the question, I don't think I'd break any bones to get "laid". If you're simple minded enough for that to be all you care about, well, prostitutes exist. However, people need interactions since we're social animals. After all, solitary confinement is what they do to some of the worst criminals. If you asked me how many bones I'd break to have a romantic relationship with someone, maybe I'd give you a different answer. Although I certainly would not want to go under the knife. It's unnatural, just like all the other unnatural things in our lives that are killing our minds.

    The article itself is interesting. I can empathize to some extent with these people, mentally ill as they are. I have my own issues, mainly a lot of insecurities about myself. It sucks to be the person you hate the most sometimes, but whatever. You might think the healthy thing is to realize that it's all in your head, but as soon as you do, life finds a way to push you down and tell you that it's not. Sometimes seeing things online or hearing what people say makes me question myself. Am I really making these things up about myself like people claim? Or is there some real basis for it? I think there is. It's hard to really understand some situations without being there yourself, and that goes for anyone who's been dealt a good hand giving advice to those who haven't.

    2 votes
  11. [2]
    Eva
    Link
    A lot of the discussion of this is a bit horrid—it's somewhat amazing how the media as a whole managed to rid the public of any even vague sense of empathy for a group that's pretty obviously...

    A lot of the discussion of this is a bit horrid—it's somewhat amazing how the media as a whole managed to rid the public of any even vague sense of empathy for a group that's pretty obviously experiencing body dysphoria.

    Yes, they have a bad coping strategy, but mocking people for coping with it seems strangely familiar. Horseshoe, etcetera.

    2 votes
    1. alyaza
      Link Parent
      i haven't read the article because it doesn't really interest me, but at least with respect to genuine incels (which this article may or may not describe), i think they did that to themselves by...

      A lot of the discussion of this is a bit horrid—it's somewhat amazing how the media as a whole managed to rid the public of any even vague sense of empathy for a group that's pretty obviously experiencing body dysphoria.

      i haven't read the article because it doesn't really interest me, but at least with respect to genuine incels (which this article may or may not describe), i think they did that to themselves by being extremely violently misogynistic to the point of committing multiple acts of terror and as a loose community often advocating for things like mass rape and sexual violence against women, disfiguring attacks against women, the subjugation and enslavement of females by the state, and other patently extremist and radical ideas of the sort, personally. it's not like the media has tarred the whole group with the ideas of a small portion of the community; those views are found on every incel forum and in every incel community, and are at minimum held by a significant plurality of incels as a whole unless you assume there's some mass, 24 hour-operations level trolling going on here. should incels get more empathy from people? maybe. but you can't really blame people for not being sympathetic to people who think the response to their presumed total inability to get laid is to start raping and killing women or calling for their enslavement.

      8 votes
  12. [5]
    krg
    (edited )
    Link
    At least 3. Edit: Less-cheeky response(s): He does far more facial-masculinization surgeries — on over 100 patients annually — although all but one or two of them are on cisgender men. At what...

    At least 3.

    Edit: Less-cheeky response(s):

    He does far more facial-masculinization surgeries — on over 100 patients annually — although all but one or two of them are on cisgender men.

    At what point in the surgery are you asked "What's your sexual preference?"

    Mostly, I think it's a bit ridiculous to label dudes with body dysmorphia or dudes just looking to get laid as "incels", now. Just seems that the definition of that term is widening for article writers' preferences so they can get those clicks while contributing to tribalism and petty internet squabbles (inadvertently?).

    I never heard of this "Lookism" forum, and it doesn't show up on the first page of Google results (adding "forum" to the search gets it). Looks like a dumb-ass niche community, though.

    Also, is it unfair of me to label people that want plastic surgery as having body dysmorphia?

    Eppley’s “whatever you want” philosophy is certainly part of his appeal. Some surgeons will not operate on patients they believe may have body dysmorphia. ... “Many of my patients have it to some degree,” he tells me. “These procedures can be really transformative.”

    Either way, this plastic surgeon sure is getting his stacks.

    1 vote
    1. [3]
      deciduous
      Link Parent
      Cisgender refers to gender, not sexual preference. It means somebody who is not trans. I mean, if somebody is posting on a forum called "Sluthate", I think incel is a fair cop. And the article...

      At what point in the surgery are you asked "What's your sexual preference?"

      Cisgender refers to gender, not sexual preference. It means somebody who is not trans.

      Mostly, I think it's a bit ridiculous to label dudes with body dysmorphia or dudes just looking to get laid as "incels", now. Just seems that the definition of that term is widening for article writers' preferences so they can get those clicks while contributing to tribalism and petty internet squabbles (inadvertently?).

      I mean, if somebody is posting on a forum called "Sluthate", I think incel is a fair cop. And the article explicitly mentions people who aren't incels who are getting surgery.

      7 votes
      1. [2]
        krg
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        My bad! I think I've seen the term paired with "straight" so much that I've conflated the two. True, which is why I thought the headline was a bit much. At least, "incels are going under..." could...

        Cisgender refers to gender, not sexual preference. It means somebody who is not trans.

        My bad! I think I've seen the term paired with "straight" so much that I've conflated the two.

        And the article explicitly mentions people who aren't incels who are getting surgery.

        True, which is why I thought the headline was a bit much. At least, "incels are going under..." could be changed to "incels consider going under ... on some internet forum..."

        Sluthate

        Also, it took me while before I realized what this was supposed to be. I kept reading it in my head as "sluth ate." (aside)

        1. Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          Same here! I couldn't figure out why they'd misspelled "sleuth"... This is a time where CamelCase would help a lot!

          Also, it took me while before I realized what this was supposed to be. I kept reading it in my head as "sluth ate." (aside)

          Same here! I couldn't figure out why they'd misspelled "sleuth"...

          This is a time where CamelCase would help a lot!

    2. nsz
      Link Parent
      From that I gather the author labels them icels because of the specific hatred against women. Which the main guy interviewed admits to having. And more surrounding, but at that point it's just...

      From that I gather the author labels them icels because of the specific hatred against women. Which the main guy interviewed admits to having.

      “I feel ashamed about everything,” he told me. “I’m talking to a woman, and I said bad things about them. I’m actually a nice person in real life.” He declined to speak further, preferring not to be reminded of this dark chapter in his past.

      He says he doesn’t hate women anymore. But he hasn’t left behind most of the theories about life that he was exposed to on incel forums. Sometimes when he notices a woman making eye contact with other men in the street, the entire world seems to narrow to a harsh, suffocating plane of power dynamics, in which sexual attraction determines all. “Every time I try to talk myself out of things I used to believe, of the black pill, it feels like I am moving away from the truth,” he tells me. It’s hard to want to live when that happens.

      And more surrounding, but at that point it's just copy pasting the whole article.

      7 votes