I've always figured that the real reason Woody Allen is less present these days, is because he's 88 and his films haven't been getting good reviews for years now. Like sure the accusations plus...
I've always figured that the real reason Woody Allen is less present these days, is because he's 88 and his films haven't been getting good reviews for years now. Like sure the accusations plus weirdness of marrying his stepdaughter don't help the guy. But let's be real moral outrage rarely truly kills a career. I mean, Kanye is back on the charts after all. However, Allen's films have been catching flack for rehashing the same things in the same ways for the last 50 years and for the most part there just doesn't seem to be much interest in late stage Woody Allen.
Yeah, those accusations have been around since his hits like Midnight in Paris or Vicky Christina Barcelona. To me Woody Allen's movies are a bit like Haruki Murakami's books in that some of the...
Yeah, those accusations have been around since his hits like Midnight in Paris or Vicky Christina Barcelona. To me Woody Allen's movies are a bit like Haruki Murakami's books in that some of the settings or side characters change, but at their core they are pretty much the same story over and over again. And while I enjoyed some of each of their earlier work, it starts to feel stale and sometimes out of touch. Like how many times do we want to watch some awkward pretentious guy feeling dissatisfaction at this life only to flounder around and end up with beautiful woman throwing themselves at him. It doesn't matter if it's Woody himself, Jesse Eisenberg (my least favorite of the lot), or even Owen Wilson; the plot almost always reads the same. And when he diverges from that, they are even worse!
It is hard to take this article seriously when it completely leaves out the whole “married his adopted daughter” thing. You can have the stance that he’s innocent but I can’t take this article in...
It is hard to take this article seriously when it completely leaves out the whole “married his adopted daughter” thing.
You can have the stance that he’s innocent but I can’t take this article in good faith if it doesn’t at least address why someone might see that and be more likely to believe the other side of the story.
Technically not his adopted daughter. It’s Mia’s adopted daughter, which like Moses (who Allen did adopt) has negative feelings towards their adoptive mother. The adopted kids of Mia, those that...
Technically not his adopted daughter. It’s Mia’s adopted daughter, which like Moses (who Allen did adopt) has negative feelings towards their adoptive mother.
The adopted kids of Mia, those that weren’t white specifically, don’t like Mia at all and have their own allegations against her treatment of them. So it’s really a matter of which kids you believe.
I know people don’t like acknowledging coaching, but it’s a lot more common than you’d think in custody cases where the partners hate each other. From what I’ve seen first hand working in family court. So I don’t think dismissing coaching, especially when therapists on the case suggested happened, is the right thing to do.
"Married his stepdaughter who was 11 when he first started dating her mom" isn't much better, even if he supposedly didn't have sex with her until she was 21.
"Married his stepdaughter who was 11 when he first started dating her mom" isn't much better, even if he supposedly didn't have sex with her until she was 21.
I'm a fan of Woody Allen's work. Even though he married his "non-step-daughter" in 1997, it took quite a while for me to become mature enough to understand the magnitude of his actions. Some of...
I'm a fan of Woody Allen's work. Even though he married his "non-step-daughter" in 1997, it took quite a while for me to become mature enough to understand the magnitude of his actions. Some of his best works were made after 1997, so young @lou wasn't too keen on investigating the whole affair. The internet wasn't what it is today, so you only really found out about those things if you looked for it. Even as an adult, I didn't have a great understanding of his actions, and culture shifted quite drastically in the past 20 years or so.
I distinctly remember my screenwriting professor telling me there was nothing wrong with it, implying that society was the one in the wrong for its moralism. A good friend of mine defended Almodóvar's romanticization of rape and pedophilia. Looking back, the early 2000s was a weird time.
Conveniently for me, in the past few years, Woody Allen's movies have become progressively lazy and uninteresting. So I'm not conflicted with any desire to watch them.
That said, nothing Woody Allen says or does will prevent me from rewatching masterpieces like Manhattan and Annie Hall. From my point of view, those are patrimonies of humankind and no one should have the power to take such beauty and perfection out of circulation. Not even their author.
The very first thing I learned about Woody Allen, was the accusations of him being a pedo. This was back in 1994, when I was first exploring movies beyond Arnold S & Sylvester S. It was in the...
The very first thing I learned about Woody Allen, was the accusations of him being a pedo.
This was back in 1994, when I was first exploring movies beyond Arnold S & Sylvester S.
It was in the helpful advice of "if you really want to get Dan [a cinephile] going, mention that Woody Allen is a pedo."
I try to judge movies on their merits, and people on their actions. Yet it always amazed me how many movies Woody made about infidelity with significantly younger women.
Its downright creepy. My wifes daughters were that age when we started dating and I made it very clear with body language that i wasnt going to be physically close to them anytime soon, especially...
Its downright creepy. My wifes daughters were that age when we started dating and I made it very clear with body language that i wasnt going to be physically close to them anytime soon, especially as minors. Even as 30 yr olds I'm reluctant to even hug them as no one wants to be the 'creepy stepdad'. Marrying your adopted stepdaughter is ultra creepy on every level. Between that and his very odd movies I think the man is seriously warped.
Exactly. And it goes way beyond even generically "creepy." You're literally running headlong against the Incest Taboo. Human cultures are infinitely varied in their form, structure, and details....
Exactly. And it goes way beyond even generically "creepy." You're literally running headlong against the Incest Taboo. Human cultures are infinitely varied in their form, structure, and details. Human cultures share shockingly few things. What one culture considers normal another will consider an absolute abomination. We're a very diverse species. However, one thing we all share, regardless of geographic region, level of development, religious presence, and a dozen other variables is the universal taboo against incest. Cultures that practice human sacrifice still have the incest taboo. Cultures that ritually cannibalize their enemies or their friends share the incest taboo. Whether their technology is that of primitive hunter-gatherers or space-faring post-industrial consumer economies, the taboo remains. Cultures that have no concept of any deity or those that demand with lethal violence the worship of a certain god share the same taboo against incest. The incest taboo is literally one of the shockingly few commonalities between all human cultures.
Not to defend Allen, but speaking purely as someone who is a bit of a history and world religion buff... that's not entirely true. Consanguine, avunculate and sibling marriage, as well as incest...
one thing we all share, regardless of geographic region, level of development, religious presence, and a dozen other variables is the universal taboo against incest
Not to defend Allen, but speaking purely as someone who is a bit of a history and world religion buff... that's not entirely true. Consanguine, avunculate and sibling marriage, as well as incest between twins, has been accepted, and sometimes even actively encouraged (esp amongst the ruling classes) in plenty of cultures and religions throughout history. E.g. See, Xwedodah in Zoroastrianism.
I would venture that, throughout history, ruling classes had a political or financial incentive to marry within the family. That benefit could be so great that it went above other biological...
I would venture that, throughout history, ruling classes had a political or financial incentive to marry within the family. That benefit could be so great that it went above other biological considerations. I believe it would be most reasonable to observe the behavior of those who were not influenced by that incentive.
That said, when I was much younger 20 or 30 years ago, marrying cousins in my community was certainly odd, but by no means prohibited. Nowadays it is very much frowned upon, socially disallowed, and also legally prohibited. I mean you can't marry your cousin but other than that there's not much they can do when two consenting adults decide to have sex.
It's kind of a given that in a big family with lots of young cousins of a compatible age that kind of thing may occur, but it's more of a kids thing and I bet way more common than people realize. They just don't tell anyone.
It makes me sad that you feel that you shouldn't hug them out of a fear of appearing creepy. But that's the world we live in and I would probably do the same. In fact, I would probably be even...
It makes me sad that you feel that you shouldn't hug them out of a fear of appearing creepy. But that's the world we live in and I would probably do the same. In fact, I would probably be even more paranoid. It is simply not safe for a man to express any kind of affection for young children that are not their own.
I don't know. My calculation of the expected outcome from a wrongful accusation (likelihood * impact) is low enough that'd I'd rather just live my life authentically. Granted, I can see...
I don't know. My calculation of the expected outcome from a wrongful accusation (likelihood * impact) is low enough that'd I'd rather just live my life authentically. Granted, I can see step-children never getting as close as they would to a biological parent. If either party isn't all for that then it's not going to happen.
The fathers in my family (current generation, my parents' generation, my grand parents) are generally pretty affectionate people. I don't know where you're coming from so I apologize for guessing....
The fathers in my family (current generation, my parents' generation, my grand parents) are generally pretty affectionate people. I don't know where you're coming from so I apologize for guessing. But if you come from a household where the father is less emotionally engaged and less affectionate (with perhaps some exceptions that are blessed by patriarchal society) then I can understand being afraid of the unknown. How many steps from your normal can you go before you leave the bubble of patriarchy? How many more until random people think you're so different you might even be a pedophile? From what I've seen uncles hugging nieces and nephews (which I suppose can be in the same range of familiarity as step parents) is socially normal.
Basically, I'm starting from this point and I would refuse to integrate people into my life that are mentally frozen in the weird state of patriarchy where men must be emotionally stunted. That's where my "likelihood" calculation comes from.
It only takes one accusation, and it doesn't even need to be formal or to make sense. It functions like a curse, it is impossible to remove. I'd rather avoid that kind of situation myself.
It only takes one accusation, and it doesn't even need to be formal or to make sense. It functions like a curse, it is impossible to remove.
I think that depends on your social network. If a majority are inoculated against the logic of "oh he hugged a child he must be fucked in the head" then, like a vaccine, the replication rate of...
I think that depends on your social network. If a majority are inoculated against the logic of "oh he hugged a child he must be fucked in the head" then, like a vaccine, the replication rate of that idea will be low. And if they're jumping out of your social network I would expect it to have little impact.
I hope I never find out if I'm right or wrong. Even a wild accusation that fizzles out would be really upsetting.
An accusation that "fizzles" out is not just upsetting, it is effectively eternal, and social judgment does not require proof. You ask if I experienced something like that. Kinda. When I was 15,...
An accusation that "fizzles" out is not just upsetting, it is effectively eternal, and social judgment does not require proof.
You ask if I experienced something like that. Kinda. When I was 15, my aunt was extremely preoccupied with not letting her 12-year-old daughter spend any time alone in the house with me (I was living with them at the time). It was extremely demoralizing, especially because her 12-year-old daughter did everything in her power to get into my pants, including sitting in my crotch when I was distracted and asking if I was "in the mood" multiple times. Nothing ever happened because I repelled my cousin aggressively at every instance, which was ironic given that my aunt thought I was the one who presented any danger.
That wasn't the first or the last time where I was considered guilty by default for being a male. I'd rather keep that at a minimum. That is most certainly one reason why I never even considered getting into education or anything kids-related.
I’m sorry, that’s pretty fucked up. As for education, yeah that’s a different matter entirely. You are at the mercy of random, perhaps completely insane, parents.
I’m sorry, that’s pretty fucked up. As for education, yeah that’s a different matter entirely. You are at the mercy of random, perhaps completely insane, parents.
Maybe it's because I'm not a man, but that hasn't been my lived experience. I know plenty of guys who are friendly and affectionate with kids. Hugging someone is only creepy if you're hugging...
Maybe it's because I'm not a man, but that hasn't been my lived experience. I know plenty of guys who are friendly and affectionate with kids. Hugging someone is only creepy if you're hugging someone who doesn't want to be there.
Im huggy with my bio kids and my grandkids, but far more cautious with the stepkids. But that also comes form a career as an educator. You learn, as a male, that it only takes one accusation to...
Im huggy with my bio kids and my grandkids, but far more cautious with the stepkids. But that also comes form a career as an educator. You learn, as a male, that it only takes one accusation to ruin your career and especially now, with kids having phones and instant communication, rumors start and can flash around a school in minutes, long before there's anything that approaches evidence or fact.
And sometimes its true. About 20 years ago I saw a fellow educator who spent time with a 15 yr old student tutoring after class with the classroom door closed. I pulled him aside and warned him that no matter what, that classroom door should remain open and he should make sure he's never giving the impression of trying to be alone with her. Turns out he seduced her, and he ended up doing a few years in jail for it. Definitely ruined his career.
I also know a grandfather who abused his granddaughter and it messed up relationships with the entire family. He got charged, the family is divided, the girl is very messed up emotionally, it was awful.
Just knowing how bad it can get just makes you want to steer FAR away from anything that even smells of being a creep. Sad, but true, and the 'curse' of being a male in a hypervigilant world.
To clarify, I'm perfectly fine showing affection for my nephews and nieces, and, of course, my son. This whole thread started talking about stepkids, and that is a very particular arrangement. It...
To clarify, I'm perfectly fine showing affection for my nephews and nieces, and, of course, my son. This whole thread started talking about stepkids, and that is a very particular arrangement. It brings numerous complications that might lead to bad results if men don't establish and enforce clear boundaries. I've been in that position before.
Right. It's a very weird situation even if you assume no malice at all, but to totally ignore it in a defense of woody allen (especially when their side of the story arguably supports allen),...
Right. It's a very weird situation even if you assume no malice at all, but to totally ignore it in a defense of woody allen (especially when their side of the story arguably supports allen), strikes me as just not even approaching the issue with anything other than an agenda.
Exactly. At the end of the day, it's important to keep things in perspective. I don't pretend to know what exactly where the line is where you can consider yourself a true "artist." But I for sure...
Exactly. At the end of the day, it's important to keep things in perspective. I don't pretend to know what exactly where the line is where you can consider yourself a true "artist." But I for sure think that someone like Woody Allen meets that qualification, no matter how you define it. But the arts have always been extremely over-saturated. For every one person that is able to make even a modest sustainable career in the arts, there are a hundred that have some talent, try, and fail to ever make a living at it. And for every hundred of those that actually manage to make a career in it, only one of those are someone you've ever heard of. And I'm probably being modest in these numbers. In reality, any visual artist you've ever heard of is is easily in the top 1:100,000 or even 1:1,000,000 of those who attempt such a career.
This is why I really don't care that much about the well-being of those who have done some horrible thing and find themselves "cancelled" as a result. Unless you yourself are working as some sort of agent looking to find talented upcoming artists, if you've heard of an artist, they are basically a lottery winner. For every artist you've ever heard of, there are a hundred, perhaps a thousand other artists who are just as innately talented but simply haven't had the same good fortune.
When a famous artist is "cancelled" for some abominable behavior, the world isn't saying, "this person is a monster, and regardless of their talent, their contributions should be deleted and their work burned." Rather, the world is saying, "we have no shortage of potential paragons and idols in this field. Talent and assholery are not mutually exclusive. If one of the recognized artists turns out to be a monster, we can easily shift that limelight to someone who has similar talent but just never got the same lucky break the monster happened to receive."
I can't speak for whether there's truly that many talented artists at any one time, but this statement: ... is kinda odd to me. Because Woody Allen isn't a once-in-a-generation talent. There's...
I can't speak for whether there's truly that many talented artists at any one time, but this statement:
I don't think the idea of once-in-a-generation talent just came from nowhere.
... is kinda odd to me. Because Woody Allen isn't a once-in-a-generation talent. There's many, many other directors, with just as much (if not more) talent than him, just in his generation, and just in the United States.
Hmm, I actually don't know about that. I feel that the reason most our media is mediocre is not due to a lack of available talent, but rather the peanut butter problem. Some people like peanut...
Hmm, I actually don't know about that.
I feel that the reason most our media is mediocre is not due to a lack of available talent, but rather the peanut butter problem. Some people like peanut butter chunky and some like it smooth. If you tried to make a peanut butter for everyone and split the difference of those two, you end up with half chunky peanut butter, which isn't what either group really wants.
Media is mediocre because people who produce media(produce as in Producer, not like content creator) make media intended to have wide appeal. Averaging out different peoples different tastes leads to something that feels watered down on all fronts a little bit.
I cannot speak about film making because I know nothing about it, but I've spent enough time playing music, meeting other musicians and going to concerts to know that at least in that field, which...
For every artist you've ever heard of, there are a hundred, perhaps a thousand other artists who are just as innately talented but simply haven't had the same good fortune.
I cannot speak about film making because I know nothing about it, but I've spent enough time playing music, meeting other musicians and going to concerts to know that at least in that field, which has a much lower barrier of entry than film, this is just not true at all.
People who have the talent, taste (to create a body of work accessible to people who are not music nerds but yet tasteful and interesting), are willing to do the hard work and have an idea about what they're actually working for, all of that enough to get on the level of Woody Allen (and I don't even think he's that phenomenal), are exceedingly rare.
It's interesting to see how cancelled has changed meaning from "was held to account and lost work" to "some people made credible allegations but he continues to work at about the same pace as he...
Exemplary
It's interesting to see how cancelled has changed meaning from "was held to account and lost work" to "some people made credible allegations but he continues to work at about the same pace as he did before". If the pace is dropping off, well, he's 80something.
List of films directed by Allen since 2010.
Coup de Chance (2023), Rifkin's Festival (2020), A Rainy Day in New York (2019), Wonder Wheel (2017), Crisis in Six Scenes (2016), Café Society (2016), Gianni Schicchi (2015), Irrational Man (2015), Magic in the Moonlight (2014), Blue Jasmine (2013), To Rome with Love (2012), Midnight in Paris (2011), You Will Meet a Tall Dark Stranger (2010)
List of notable actors in these films.
Melvil Poupaud, Niels Schneider, and Lou de Laâge, Gina Gershon, Wallace Shawn, Elena Anaya, Louis Garrel, Jude Law, Liev Schreiber, Diego Luna, Elle Fanning, Selena Gomez, Timothée Chalamet, Kate Winslet, Joaquin Phoenix, Colin Firth, Emma Stone, Cate Blanchett, and Owen Wilson.
Maybe @cloud_loud can help with that but I don't think it's a coincidence that many of his movies in the past 20 years take place in Europe. Not saying that he was or was not canceled.
Maybe @cloud_loud can help with that but I don't think it's a coincidence that many of his movies in the past 20 years take place in Europe. Not saying that he was or was not canceled.
This article doesn't bring much new to the discussion about Woody Allen. I think it is fair to have questions about the truth of the allegations, and the situation is certainly muddy. That being...
This article doesn't bring much new to the discussion about Woody Allen. I think it is fair to have questions about the truth of the allegations, and the situation is certainly muddy. That being said, I can't say that anyone is wrong for not wanting to work with or support a man whose adopted daughter maintains that he sexually abused her.
If people don't want to work with someone whose behavior they find distasteful or not acceptable or really any reason, that's up to them. Demanding the opposite is the same supposed coercive...
If people don't want to work with someone whose behavior they find distasteful or not acceptable or really any reason, that's up to them. Demanding the opposite is the same supposed coercive influence that opponents of "cancel culture" decry. And, sure, people won't be consistent about where the lines are drawn. We aren't perfectly rational and logic-driven actors. Contemporary culture isn't a monolith. So of course.
Agree. "Cancelling" isn't an attack on freedom of choice, it's an exercise of freedom of choice. If it comes down to it, I'd take a "cultural criminal" over a sexual predator any day. The article...
Demanding the opposite is the same supposed coercive influence that opponents of "cancel culture" decry.
Agree. "Cancelling" isn't an attack on freedom of choice, it's an exercise of freedom of choice.
If it comes down to it, I'd take a "cultural criminal" over a sexual predator any day.
The article makes it sound like we have such a scarcity of great artists, that we should just turn a blind eye to any bad behavior of theirs. But there are plenty of other great artists I can support who aren't sexual predators. In fact I feel we are probably missing out on a lot of people who could have been great artists, but got driven out of the industry because they got sexually harassed.
Yup, and it happens quite often to victims of sexual harassment in the industry-- they get blackballed for speaking up against industry veterans who are sexual predators.
Yup, and it happens quite often to victims of sexual harassment in the industry-- they get blackballed for speaking up against industry veterans who are sexual predators.
I loved Woody Allen movies Past tense. Allen deserved to be canceled. I can't imagine someone in 2024 writing such an article unless they desperately needed to publish and have their name seen.
Woody Allen’s Cancellation Is a Crime Against Culture
The great director made his 50th film far from Hollywood, which has unjustly shunned him.
By
Kyle Smith
April 5, 2024 1:53 pm ET
I loved Woody Allen movies
Past tense.
Allen deserved to be canceled.
I can't imagine someone in 2024 writing such an article unless they desperately needed to publish and have their name seen.
I've always figured that the real reason Woody Allen is less present these days, is because he's 88 and his films haven't been getting good reviews for years now. Like sure the accusations plus weirdness of marrying his stepdaughter don't help the guy. But let's be real moral outrage rarely truly kills a career. I mean, Kanye is back on the charts after all. However, Allen's films have been catching flack for rehashing the same things in the same ways for the last 50 years and for the most part there just doesn't seem to be much interest in late stage Woody Allen.
Yeah, those accusations have been around since his hits like Midnight in Paris or Vicky Christina Barcelona. To me Woody Allen's movies are a bit like Haruki Murakami's books in that some of the settings or side characters change, but at their core they are pretty much the same story over and over again. And while I enjoyed some of each of their earlier work, it starts to feel stale and sometimes out of touch. Like how many times do we want to watch some awkward pretentious guy feeling dissatisfaction at this life only to flounder around and end up with beautiful woman throwing themselves at him. It doesn't matter if it's Woody himself, Jesse Eisenberg (my least favorite of the lot), or even Owen Wilson; the plot almost always reads the same. And when he diverges from that, they are even worse!
It is hard to take this article seriously when it completely leaves out the whole “married his adopted daughter” thing.
You can have the stance that he’s innocent but I can’t take this article in good faith if it doesn’t at least address why someone might see that and be more likely to believe the other side of the story.
Technically not his adopted daughter. It’s Mia’s adopted daughter, which like Moses (who Allen did adopt) has negative feelings towards their adoptive mother.
The adopted kids of Mia, those that weren’t white specifically, don’t like Mia at all and have their own allegations against her treatment of them. So it’s really a matter of which kids you believe.
I know people don’t like acknowledging coaching, but it’s a lot more common than you’d think in custody cases where the partners hate each other. From what I’ve seen first hand working in family court. So I don’t think dismissing coaching, especially when therapists on the case suggested happened, is the right thing to do.
"Married his stepdaughter who was 11 when he first started dating her mom" isn't much better, even if he supposedly didn't have sex with her until she was 21.
I'm a fan of Woody Allen's work. Even though he married his "non-step-daughter" in 1997, it took quite a while for me to become mature enough to understand the magnitude of his actions. Some of his best works were made after 1997, so young @lou wasn't too keen on investigating the whole affair. The internet wasn't what it is today, so you only really found out about those things if you looked for it. Even as an adult, I didn't have a great understanding of his actions, and culture shifted quite drastically in the past 20 years or so.
I distinctly remember my screenwriting professor telling me there was nothing wrong with it, implying that society was the one in the wrong for its moralism. A good friend of mine defended Almodóvar's romanticization of rape and pedophilia. Looking back, the early 2000s was a weird time.
Conveniently for me, in the past few years, Woody Allen's movies have become progressively lazy and uninteresting. So I'm not conflicted with any desire to watch them.
That said, nothing Woody Allen says or does will prevent me from rewatching masterpieces like Manhattan and Annie Hall. From my point of view, those are patrimonies of humankind and no one should have the power to take such beauty and perfection out of circulation. Not even their author.
The very first thing I learned about Woody Allen, was the accusations of him being a pedo.
This was back in 1994, when I was first exploring movies beyond Arnold S & Sylvester S.
It was in the helpful advice of "if you really want to get Dan [a cinephile] going, mention that Woody Allen is a pedo."
I try to judge movies on their merits, and people on their actions. Yet it always amazed me how many movies Woody made about infidelity with significantly younger women.
Its downright creepy. My wifes daughters were that age when we started dating and I made it very clear with body language that i wasnt going to be physically close to them anytime soon, especially as minors. Even as 30 yr olds I'm reluctant to even hug them as no one wants to be the 'creepy stepdad'. Marrying your adopted stepdaughter is ultra creepy on every level. Between that and his very odd movies I think the man is seriously warped.
He was seen leaving Jeffrey Epstein's home with his step-daughter/wife. That's all you need to know.
It's all circumstantial evidence. But it's a lot. The HBO doc has plenty of it.
Exactly. And it goes way beyond even generically "creepy." You're literally running headlong against the Incest Taboo. Human cultures are infinitely varied in their form, structure, and details. Human cultures share shockingly few things. What one culture considers normal another will consider an absolute abomination. We're a very diverse species. However, one thing we all share, regardless of geographic region, level of development, religious presence, and a dozen other variables is the universal taboo against incest. Cultures that practice human sacrifice still have the incest taboo. Cultures that ritually cannibalize their enemies or their friends share the incest taboo. Whether their technology is that of primitive hunter-gatherers or space-faring post-industrial consumer economies, the taboo remains. Cultures that have no concept of any deity or those that demand with lethal violence the worship of a certain god share the same taboo against incest. The incest taboo is literally one of the shockingly few commonalities between all human cultures.
Not to defend Allen, but speaking purely as someone who is a bit of a history and world religion buff... that's not entirely true. Consanguine, avunculate and sibling marriage, as well as incest between twins, has been accepted, and sometimes even actively encouraged (esp amongst the ruling classes) in plenty of cultures and religions throughout history. E.g. See, Xwedodah in Zoroastrianism.
I would venture that, throughout history, ruling classes had a political or financial incentive to marry within the family. That benefit could be so great that it went above other biological considerations. I believe it would be most reasonable to observe the behavior of those who were not influenced by that incentive.
That said, when I was much younger 20 or 30 years ago, marrying cousins in my community was certainly odd, but by no means prohibited. Nowadays it is very much frowned upon, socially disallowed, and also legally prohibited. I mean you can't marry your cousin but other than that there's not much they can do when two consenting adults decide to have sex.
It's kind of a given that in a big family with lots of young cousins of a compatible age that kind of thing may occur, but it's more of a kids thing and I bet way more common than people realize. They just don't tell anyone.
It makes me sad that you feel that you shouldn't hug them out of a fear of appearing creepy. But that's the world we live in and I would probably do the same. In fact, I would probably be even more paranoid. It is simply not safe for a man to express any kind of affection for young children that are not their own.
I don't know. My calculation of the expected outcome from a wrongful accusation (likelihood * impact) is low enough that'd I'd rather just live my life authentically. Granted, I can see step-children never getting as close as they would to a biological parent. If either party isn't all for that then it's not going to happen.
I believe you underestimate the consequences of that eventuality.
The fathers in my family (current generation, my parents' generation, my grand parents) are generally pretty affectionate people. I don't know where you're coming from so I apologize for guessing. But if you come from a household where the father is less emotionally engaged and less affectionate (with perhaps some exceptions that are blessed by patriarchal society) then I can understand being afraid of the unknown. How many steps from your normal can you go before you leave the bubble of patriarchy? How many more until random people think you're so different you might even be a pedophile? From what I've seen uncles hugging nieces and nephews (which I suppose can be in the same range of familiarity as step parents) is socially normal.
Basically, I'm starting from this point and I would refuse to integrate people into my life that are mentally frozen in the weird state of patriarchy where men must be emotionally stunted. That's where my "likelihood" calculation comes from.
It only takes one accusation, and it doesn't even need to be formal or to make sense. It functions like a curse, it is impossible to remove.
I'd rather avoid that kind of situation myself.
I think that depends on your social network. If a majority are inoculated against the logic of "oh he hugged a child he must be fucked in the head" then, like a vaccine, the replication rate of that idea will be low. And if they're jumping out of your social network I would expect it to have little impact.
I hope I never find out if I'm right or wrong. Even a wild accusation that fizzles out would be really upsetting.
An accusation that "fizzles" out is not just upsetting, it is effectively eternal, and social judgment does not require proof.
You ask if I experienced something like that. Kinda. When I was 15, my aunt was extremely preoccupied with not letting her 12-year-old daughter spend any time alone in the house with me (I was living with them at the time). It was extremely demoralizing, especially because her 12-year-old daughter did everything in her power to get into my pants, including sitting in my crotch when I was distracted and asking if I was "in the mood" multiple times. Nothing ever happened because I repelled my cousin aggressively at every instance, which was ironic given that my aunt thought I was the one who presented any danger.
That wasn't the first or the last time where I was considered guilty by default for being a male. I'd rather keep that at a minimum. That is most certainly one reason why I never even considered getting into education or anything kids-related.
I’m sorry, that’s pretty fucked up. As for education, yeah that’s a different matter entirely. You are at the mercy of random, perhaps completely insane, parents.
Maybe it's because I'm not a man, but that hasn't been my lived experience. I know plenty of guys who are friendly and affectionate with kids. Hugging someone is only creepy if you're hugging someone who doesn't want to be there.
Im huggy with my bio kids and my grandkids, but far more cautious with the stepkids. But that also comes form a career as an educator. You learn, as a male, that it only takes one accusation to ruin your career and especially now, with kids having phones and instant communication, rumors start and can flash around a school in minutes, long before there's anything that approaches evidence or fact.
And sometimes its true. About 20 years ago I saw a fellow educator who spent time with a 15 yr old student tutoring after class with the classroom door closed. I pulled him aside and warned him that no matter what, that classroom door should remain open and he should make sure he's never giving the impression of trying to be alone with her. Turns out he seduced her, and he ended up doing a few years in jail for it. Definitely ruined his career.
I also know a grandfather who abused his granddaughter and it messed up relationships with the entire family. He got charged, the family is divided, the girl is very messed up emotionally, it was awful.
Just knowing how bad it can get just makes you want to steer FAR away from anything that even smells of being a creep. Sad, but true, and the 'curse' of being a male in a hypervigilant world.
To clarify, I'm perfectly fine showing affection for my nephews and nieces, and, of course, my son. This whole thread started talking about stepkids, and that is a very particular arrangement. It brings numerous complications that might lead to bad results if men don't establish and enforce clear boundaries. I've been in that position before.
Right. It's a very weird situation even if you assume no malice at all, but to totally ignore it in a defense of woody allen (especially when their side of the story arguably supports allen), strikes me as just not even approaching the issue with anything other than an agenda.
Exactly. At the end of the day, it's important to keep things in perspective. I don't pretend to know what exactly where the line is where you can consider yourself a true "artist." But I for sure think that someone like Woody Allen meets that qualification, no matter how you define it. But the arts have always been extremely over-saturated. For every one person that is able to make even a modest sustainable career in the arts, there are a hundred that have some talent, try, and fail to ever make a living at it. And for every hundred of those that actually manage to make a career in it, only one of those are someone you've ever heard of. And I'm probably being modest in these numbers. In reality, any visual artist you've ever heard of is is easily in the top 1:100,000 or even 1:1,000,000 of those who attempt such a career.
This is why I really don't care that much about the well-being of those who have done some horrible thing and find themselves "cancelled" as a result. Unless you yourself are working as some sort of agent looking to find talented upcoming artists, if you've heard of an artist, they are basically a lottery winner. For every artist you've ever heard of, there are a hundred, perhaps a thousand other artists who are just as innately talented but simply haven't had the same good fortune.
When a famous artist is "cancelled" for some abominable behavior, the world isn't saying, "this person is a monster, and regardless of their talent, their contributions should be deleted and their work burned." Rather, the world is saying, "we have no shortage of potential paragons and idols in this field. Talent and assholery are not mutually exclusive. If one of the recognized artists turns out to be a monster, we can easily shift that limelight to someone who has similar talent but just never got the same lucky break the monster happened to receive."
I can't speak for whether there's truly that many talented artists at any one time, but this statement:
... is kinda odd to me. Because Woody Allen isn't a once-in-a-generation talent. There's many, many other directors, with just as much (if not more) talent than him, just in his generation, and just in the United States.
Hmm, I actually don't know about that.
I feel that the reason most our media is mediocre is not due to a lack of available talent, but rather the peanut butter problem. Some people like peanut butter chunky and some like it smooth. If you tried to make a peanut butter for everyone and split the difference of those two, you end up with half chunky peanut butter, which isn't what either group really wants.
Media is mediocre because people who produce media(produce as in Producer, not like content creator) make media intended to have wide appeal. Averaging out different peoples different tastes leads to something that feels watered down on all fronts a little bit.
I cannot speak about film making because I know nothing about it, but I've spent enough time playing music, meeting other musicians and going to concerts to know that at least in that field, which has a much lower barrier of entry than film, this is just not true at all.
People who have the talent, taste (to create a body of work accessible to people who are not music nerds but yet tasteful and interesting), are willing to do the hard work and have an idea about what they're actually working for, all of that enough to get on the level of Woody Allen (and I don't even think he's that phenomenal), are exceedingly rare.
It's interesting to see how cancelled has changed meaning from "was held to account and lost work" to "some people made credible allegations but he continues to work at about the same pace as he did before". If the pace is dropping off, well, he's 80something.
List of films directed by Allen since 2010.
Coup de Chance (2023), Rifkin's Festival (2020), A Rainy Day in New York (2019), Wonder Wheel (2017), Crisis in Six Scenes (2016), Café Society (2016), Gianni Schicchi (2015), Irrational Man (2015), Magic in the Moonlight (2014), Blue Jasmine (2013), To Rome with Love (2012), Midnight in Paris (2011), You Will Meet a Tall Dark Stranger (2010)
List of notable actors in these films.
Melvil Poupaud, Niels Schneider, and Lou de Laâge, Gina Gershon, Wallace Shawn, Elena Anaya, Louis Garrel, Jude Law, Liev Schreiber, Diego Luna, Elle Fanning, Selena Gomez, Timothée Chalamet, Kate Winslet, Joaquin Phoenix, Colin Firth, Emma Stone, Cate Blanchett, and Owen Wilson.
Maybe @cloud_loud can help with that but I don't think it's a coincidence that many of his movies in the past 20 years take place in Europe. Not saying that he was or was not canceled.
This article doesn't bring much new to the discussion about Woody Allen. I think it is fair to have questions about the truth of the allegations, and the situation is certainly muddy. That being said, I can't say that anyone is wrong for not wanting to work with or support a man whose adopted daughter maintains that he sexually abused her.
Edit: a word
If people don't want to work with someone whose behavior they find distasteful or not acceptable or really any reason, that's up to them. Demanding the opposite is the same supposed coercive influence that opponents of "cancel culture" decry. And, sure, people won't be consistent about where the lines are drawn. We aren't perfectly rational and logic-driven actors. Contemporary culture isn't a monolith. So of course.
Agree. "Cancelling" isn't an attack on freedom of choice, it's an exercise of freedom of choice.
If it comes down to it, I'd take a "cultural criminal" over a sexual predator any day.
The article makes it sound like we have such a scarcity of great artists, that we should just turn a blind eye to any bad behavior of theirs. But there are plenty of other great artists I can support who aren't sexual predators. In fact I feel we are probably missing out on a lot of people who could have been great artists, but got driven out of the industry because they got sexually harassed.
This is true, but blackballing artists is another form of freedom of choice that is generally very bad.
Yup, and it happens quite often to victims of sexual harassment in the industry-- they get blackballed for speaking up against industry veterans who are sexual predators.
Mirror without paywall
https://archive.is/JH048
I loved Woody Allen movies
Past tense.
Allen deserved to be canceled.
I can't imagine someone in 2024 writing such an article unless they desperately needed to publish and have their name seen.
I reject the premise of the article.
Same. I've never hit the ignore button on Tildes as quick as I did with this lol
It makes me especially sad when even the WSJ trolls for engagement. Carrying that name used to mean something.