I haven't seen the movie yet, but Ben Grimm has been Jewish in the comics since the creators could publicly make him such. (It was more coded than explicit originally). But for 20+ years he's a...
I haven't seen the movie yet, but Ben Grimm has been Jewish in the comics since the creators could publicly make him such. (It was more coded than explicit originally). But for 20+ years he's a character who has a second bar mitzvah, says the Shema, etc.
Black and white cookies are coded - Joe from the Midwest doesn't get New York City references, a Star of David isn't coded or regional.
It does not sound like this movie discussed Israel or Zionism or something, so I would not consider Ben Grimm's presence to be propaganda. I'm used to Marvel movies being US propaganda, usually military as par for the course, but I can't speak obviously to the overall plot or other representation in the film.
I just don't think representation of a Jewish character, is propaganda, no more than a queer or trans character would be propaganda or "shoving it in people's faces"
ETA: "a token Asian" - East or Southeast or Pacific Islander or.... Etc. Just as a Black person doesn't inherently tick the "Africa" box unless they're African. (And once again, Egyptian? Ghanaian? Where in Africa?)
We'd need a lot more context to be able to comment, and I'm sure that would require spoilers. I'd agree that MENA representation is often poor but a "token" anything is not good representation.
Very much agree with this, I remember Grimm's identity being colored in some day-to-day panels from the bit of 00's F4 I read when I was younger. But apologies - I'm having trouble parsing that; a...
Very much agree with this, I remember Grimm's identity being colored in some day-to-day panels from the bit of 00's F4 I read when I was younger. But apologies -
Black and white cookies are coded - Joe from the Midwest doesn't get New York City references, a Star of David isn't.
I'm having trouble parsing that; a Star of David isn't [regional]?
Yeah, a star of david isn't regional. You don't think everybody knows the star of david is a Jewish symbol? It's about on par with crosses being Christian.
Yeah, a star of david isn't regional. You don't think everybody knows the star of david is a Jewish symbol? It's about on par with crosses being Christian.
I meant the Star of David isn't coded or regional, I edited for clarity. Growing up in the 90s, a Star of David necklace and a kippah/yarmulke would have been the only two things I knew about...
I meant the Star of David isn't coded or regional, I edited for clarity.
Growing up in the 90s, a Star of David necklace and a kippah/yarmulke would have been the only two things I knew about Jewish people visual representation wise, and my non-denominational pre-school was in a synagogue.
First, the kids today have not seen Seinfeld, they have barely seen Friends. Secondly I can buy Black and White cookies at Jewel Osco, they're a "Chicago" cookie to me, not a Jewish one. Third,...
First, the kids today have not seen Seinfeld, they have barely seen Friends. Secondly I can buy Black and White cookies at Jewel Osco, they're a "Chicago" cookie to me, not a Jewish one. Third, tbh lots of non-Jewish people go to Jewish delis!
But yes some people get a coded reference it's just not weird or over the top to have a Jewish character wear a Star of David.
Fun fact -- here in Germany, black and white cookies (or at least the closest equivalent; I didn't grow up eating them back in the States) are called "Amerikaner". But ftr, lots of Americans are...
Fun fact -- here in Germany, black and white cookies (or at least the closest equivalent; I didn't grow up eating them back in the States) are called "Amerikaner".
But ftr, lots of Americans are surprised when I tell them bagels are a Jewish thing. I think people who are either New Yorkers or are otherwise more familiar with Jewish people/culture than the average overestimate most peoples' knowledge.
Meanwhile, I definitely associate bagels with Jewish culture and foodways. But that was definitely not the case when I was a child eating only Lenders bagels from the refrigerated section. But...
Meanwhile, I definitely associate bagels with Jewish culture and foodways. But that was definitely not the case when I was a child eating only Lenders bagels from the refrigerated section. But that's before we could get fresh made bagels in cornfield IL
I'm around 30 and have seen that episode (even though it came out too early for me to have seen it anywhere close to it's original airing). Until this conversion just now I didn't know that black...
I'm around 30 and have seen that episode (even though it came out too early for me to have seen it anywhere close to it's original airing). Until this conversion just now I didn't know that black and white cookies were related to Judaism in any way. I personally would have made no connection between a cookie and a religion. I asked my wife and she wasn't aware that a character buying a black and white cookie was supposed to mean that they're Jewish either.
I'd obviously get things like wearing a star of David pin though.
It's really that they're associated with Jewish delis in NY. They're not inherently Jewish, but it's more like.... Someone ordering a pastrami on rye without commenting on not eating cheese or...
It's really that they're associated with Jewish delis in NY. They're not inherently Jewish, but it's more like.... Someone ordering a pastrami on rye without commenting on not eating cheese or ham. Like someone eating fish on Friday would be coded as Catholic, eating a bunch of seafood on Christmas Eve would be Italian American (my family didn't do this one idk why), etc.
It's totally normal not to have that association with the cookies if you aren't in NYC or aren't around a lot of Jewish folks or absorbing Jewish media. Seinfeld did bring it to a lot of people's attention but I noted they're usually found at Jewel near me, that's a Chicago grocery store and for me the city association is higher than the religious/ethnic one.
(I've also only heard them called black and white cookies, not any of the other names)
I don’t know what MENA means, but I’m not saying there was good representation of anyone in the movie. The Jewishness of the Ben character was really overdone, however, in my opinion. As opposed...
I don’t know what MENA means, but I’m not saying there was good representation of anyone in the movie.
The Jewishness of the Ben character was really overdone, however, in my opinion. As opposed to the african rep of Black Panther, say. Especially given the complete absence of the representation of any Palestinians or Arab folks.
The Black person was at least in a leadership role.
I do get the show’s origins, but it’s no longer 1958.
I guess I’ll also emphasize the fact that making a commercial product placement style endorsement of Jewish identity in the current context of the Levant smells of the Ultra orthodox bent toward complete Palestenian domination/displacement. I would expect those in the orthodox+ zionist community probably are happy, for sure the ADL, maybe they paid for the placement.
One more thing I’ll add, Scorcese has depicted Jews and highlighted their Jewish identity, but it isn’t anything like this and is agnostic about the community as a whole. Compare John Wick’s depiction, as well as Adam Sandler’s Chaunaukah song.
Middle Eastern/North African You came in saying it was propaganda - not just American propaganda which I'd agree with sight unseen; I think that's very different than saying "all the...
Middle Eastern/North African
You came in saying it was propaganda - not just American propaganda which I'd agree with sight unseen; I think that's very different than saying "all the representation was bad"
I have dug a bit for Jewish opinions on the movie and they seem to feel it was quite well done. I don't know what "overdone" means and the complaint feels similar to those offered about Sam being Cap. Do you think Daredevil's Catholicism is overdone?
I can't find anything about him being a caricature. Fwiw the character is a nod to the Golem of Jewish legend, he's really not supposed to exist outside of that context.
Maybe all the rep was bad, but I don't see how that makes it propaganda in regards to Judaism or how you only note the total absence of MENA rep. It feels like you're implying the movie and the Jewish rep to be a statement on international affairs.
It seems to me like Superman made a much louder statement in that vein than this movie. Again, I haven't seen it yet, so maybe I'll come away with a different opinion but what you're sharing here is being annoyed that they made it obvious he was Jewish not that they did it badly.
ETA In regards to your edits, these are different genres. How do you think that the Hanukkah song is a meaningful comparison or contrast here?
ETA again, I missed your ADL claim here, Ben isn't Orthodox or UO or Chassid. This is conspiratorial thinking. The creator was Jewish. Ben Grimm is a comic version of the golem.
But if there’s no particular reason for them to be MENA other than apparently satisfying a quota — then wouldn’t that make them a token MENA character? Are you just arguing against the values of...
But if there’s no particular reason for them to be MENA other than apparently satisfying a quota — then wouldn’t that make them a token MENA character? Are you just arguing against the values of the quotas rather than the concept of quotas?
for sure the ADL, maybe they paid for the placement.
This smells like conspiratorial thinking honestly. The character is well known to be Jewish, they are a main character and a superhero, so their community is portrayed positively. I don’t think it’s any deeper than that. I definitely don’t think it’s promoting genocide.
it isn’t anything like this and is agnostic about the community as a whole
I’m not sure what you are saying. Scorsese was agnostic about the community, and this (Fantastic Four) was not, which is a bad thing? Should depictions of the Jewish community only be neutral or negative? Doesn’t that sound — kind of a bit antisemitic?
Do we have any reason to think that these random New York Jews have any position at all on Palestine or what Israel is doing? Yet it seems like they are being painted with a broad brush that encompasses all Jews.
I don’t know what “MENA” means, but I infer it means Arabs, Palestinians, Persians and North African folks. I avoid “middle east” because of its eurocentric connotations. My point is that if you...
I don’t know what “MENA” means, but I infer it means Arabs, Palestinians, Persians and North African folks. I avoid “middle east” because of its eurocentric connotations.
My point is that if you are employing token ethnicities, you should have tomens from all ethnicities. And if you are going to highlight one or two in particular, it is suspicious if you leave out others that are in conflict with the ones highlighted. Especially if those left out are on the wring end of a power differential. It would be like highlighting the Japanese in an early 20th century mivie, including token S. Koreans, Pacific Islanders, Russiians, and leaving out provincial Chinese. Or in the 70s, highlighting the UK, tokenizing the Scots and Protestant Irish, and leaving out the Catholics. Jackson and the Irkoquois, leaving out the Cherokee. The list goes on.
The distinction is that this film seems to endorse and promote Jewish identity and hinting at an endorsement of orthodox Judaism. Scorcese amd others use Jewish identity to flesh out characters, but in a way that seems far more agnostic.
In a better timeline where there is peace in the Levant, or at least detente and parallel prosperity, this would be a fine thing. But we don’t live in that timeline.
Middle East and North Africa - Wikipedia Or SWANA if you prefer. Let's say this is an endorsement of "Orthodox" Judaism - although I sincerely doubt he's "Orthodox", he's probably Reform based on...
Let's say this is an endorsement of "Orthodox" Judaism - although I sincerely doubt he's "Orthodox", he's probably Reform based on his attendance - so what? That isn't anything to do with the Levant. It's just a character's religion, one he shared with his creator and shares with his actor. Why is that propaganda.
It's hard for me to express how much it just fucking sucks to read this thread as a Jewish person. Just being Jewish in 2025 in an absolute slog. My great grandmother came to this country as a...
Exemplary
It's hard for me to express how much it just fucking sucks to read this thread as a Jewish person. Just being Jewish in 2025 in an absolute slog.
My great grandmother came to this country as a young child with her mother and essentially nothing to their name. They were escaping the Russian pogroms, anti-Jewish riots that killed thousands, left countless more homeless and destitute. The lucky Jews escaped to America, to be discriminated against, but mostly left alone (except for those unlucky enough to be lynched by the KKK). The unlucky ones never made it out of Europe, and joined the millions of Jews that were systematically slaughtered a generation later.
Every Jew I know has stories like this. To be Jewish is to have the stories of your parents, or your grandparents, or your great grandparents baked into your bones. Stories of escape, of flight, of violence and fear.
Slowly, it started feeling safe to tell other stories. And to tell them in places that non-Jews could see them. And goddamn does it feel awesome to see your people in stories you love. Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, Nobody Wants This. And, yeah, a little weird to have your goy friends suddenly learning things about your culture through television shows. But it's kind of nice, too.
But then there's this government, an explicitly Jewish government, committing absolutely heinous atrocities. A military force directed by cowardly bigots, coopting the symbols of a faith rooted in community and diplomacy to brutalize an entire society. Harmony Hall, and all that.
Did you know that most Jews, globally, don't live in Israel? Even after the Holocaust. We spent so long without a homeland, most of us didn't go "back".
Judaism is not the modern nation of Israel, as much as the shitheads in power there would like to conflate the two. And it just absolutely blows to see a piece of media draw focus to the Jewishness of a character that's been explicitly Jewish for decades, and to see this thread in response.
I really have no appetite for getting into the weeds, but I'm struggling to contain my responses to some of this.
It is absolutely absurd to say that including a character from one minority background is propaganda because other minority backgrounds aren't represented. You did not think that Shang-Chi was Chinese propaganda because there were no Uyghur characters.
It is similarly absurd to say that storytellers should not have characters wearing religious symbols "engaging in combat". The Star of David is not owned by the modern state of Israel. It predates it by thousands of years. Ben Grimm's character, actions, and history are nothing like and have nothing to do with the state of Israel. He's a Jew. Jews wear Stars of David. Fuck.
I didn’t make this claim. The over/under representation is merely part of the story. i’m curious, if I had a smoking gun that IDF intelligence inserted the scenes and imagery I find troubling, and...
It is absolutely absurd to say that including a character from one minority background is propaganda because other minority backgrounds aren't represented.
I didn’t make this claim. The over/under representation is merely part of the story.
i’m curious, if I had a smoking gun that IDF intelligence inserted the scenes and imagery I find troubling, and also had a hand in keeping out images of Palestinians, would your opinion of this post change?
I don’t know who Shang Li is, but for the record, as much ad I love Donnie Yen I considered his inclusion in Rogue One to be suspect.
Shang-Chi is another Marvel character. A Chinese-American one in the films. Actual eviidence for your claims would certainly make a difference. How a foreign country's military actively controlled...
Shang-Chi is another Marvel character. A Chinese-American one in the films.
Actual eviidence for your claims would certainly make a difference. How a foreign country's military actively controlled the creation of this film would be very interesting, I'm sure.
This does just sound more conspiratorial. Yes, if you can prove your conspiracy rather than making vague suggestions with what seems to be a lack of understanding of the religion in question that would probably help, but I don't think you can and I am starting to think this thread should be closed.
That’s what OP is saying. What is the difference between an ethnicity that’s only there because of “the diversity quota” and a “real” one that’s there because they fit the story?
That’s what OP is saying. What is the difference between an ethnicity that’s only there because of “the diversity quota” and a “real” one that’s there because they fit the story?
I feel like this is a unnecessary take and mostly incorrect or vague/borderline nonexistent thoughts that you dug deep for based on what media you've personally been consuming. I saw the movie,...
I feel like this is a unnecessary take and mostly incorrect or vague/borderline nonexistent thoughts that you dug deep for based on what media you've personally been consuming. I saw the movie, and none of this crossed my mind. The fantastic 4 comics came out right around the 60s, when the space race and culture were much different. The stuff in the trailers showing the 4 on grainy film, along with the shots of the spaceship are clearly homages to the reality of the time, the same shots of the apollo space ships and the footage is similar to that of Neil, Buzz, and Michael.
Having a story set in what the people of the 60s thought the future would look like isn't anything surprising and should have been extremely clear based on the trailers. The product placements are less hamfisted than other marvel movies? Iron man had the burger king product placement which has a nice story but it also has the Audi car Tony drives in..quite a lot, and lots of shots of it in the background in his lab, or the LG phone. Ads in time square are kinda the point of it, not seeing them would be more off putting than seeing them.
Others have already talked about your comments on "token ethnicities", I don't have anything do add.
But the half moon thing is extremely weird Complaining about a potential metaphor for unity is very weird when the premise of the entire movie was coming together for the greater good.
I’m not sire what you mean by half moon? But you seem to have misunderstood what I meant by “product placements.” I meant that the Star of David was highlighted the way BMW’s are highlighted in...
I’m not sire what you mean by half moon?
But you seem to have misunderstood what I meant by “product placements.” I meant that the Star of David was highlighted the way BMW’s are highlighted in mission impossible movies. They change the lighting and detail in such a way that you almost “have” to see it. My point then is that Jewish identity as a concept is depicted as an endorsement or propagandistic suggestion.
Half moons are a name for the cookies. Highlighting the necklace is a hamfisted* way to highlight something for an audience you don't trust to catch on otherwise. It's extremely common in Marvel...
Half moons are a name for the cookies.
Highlighting the necklace is a hamfisted* way to highlight something for an audience you don't trust to catch on otherwise. It's extremely common in Marvel movies to stay focused on something plot relevant or ominous or that winks at the camera, whatever, to make sure people catch it.
What is the propaganda angle on a symbol for a religion that doesn't proselytize?
*Or stylized if I'm being less judgemental about it.
Ahh, on the half moons. FWIW, it’s not just a prop, like Russel Crowe(?) wears in that one cop movie. It’s a spotlighted decoration in a community center.
Ahh, on the half moons. FWIW, it’s not just a prop, like Russel Crowe(?) wears in that one cop movie. It’s a spotlighted decoration in a community center.
Is it the synagogue he goes to? Or a Jewish community center, because the reviews suggest he's at a shul which is a synagogue, and they may also host a community center for the non-religious...
Is it the synagogue he goes to? Or a Jewish community center, because the reviews suggest he's at a shul which is a synagogue, and they may also host a community center for the non-religious social gatherings. I'd expect to see Jewish symbols there.
If so that seems like being annoyed at a giant crucifix in a Catholic Church or school. Like yeah it's dramatic IRL too but Roman Catholics don't do empty crosses for worship (or for diocesan decor in general, crucifixes in every classroom and office) and often but not always there's a fairly large one in the sanctuary.
Also I have no idea what you're referring to with Russel.Crowe, it doesn't seem relevant.im still not sure what you think the propaganda angle is here?
If there weren’t the awful things happening in the Levant, I might nit have even been triggered. I noticed Russel Crow’s necklace, because I am tuned to religious imagery, but did not conclude the...
If there weren’t the awful things happening in the Levant, I might nit have even been triggered. I noticed Russel Crow’s necklace, because I am tuned to religious imagery, but did not conclude the movie (American Gangster, which did an awesome job depicting black folks as very human) was making any statement about Jewish identity or the situation in Palestine. Perhaps it is my own sensitivities-I am close to a Jordanian and associated with a couple Palestinians-but the spotlight on the awesomeness of Jews (and, the current Israeli government notwithstanding, Jews as a whole have done awesome things since at least 700 bce) feels overbearing and loaded. Let me know if you can at least perceive my point of view after seeing the movie.
I am really asking you to articulate it more clearly, how is there a spotlight on the awesomeness of Jewish people? Is that different than the awesomeness of Catholics in Daredevil Was there...
I am really asking you to articulate it more clearly, how is there a spotlight on the awesomeness of Jewish people? Is that different than the awesomeness of Catholics in Daredevil
Was there mention of Israel or Palestine at all? Is this not the same as conflation of all of Islam with the government of Iran?
Edit: after your conspiratorial claims I can no longer take this criticism seriously.
Maybe just reserve judgment until you see the movie. It’s hardly ‘conspiratorial’ in the derogatory sense to suggest corporate media might have an antisocial agenda. It also occurs to me to...
Maybe just reserve judgment until you see the movie. It’s hardly ‘conspiratorial’ in the derogatory sense to suggest corporate media might have an antisocial agenda.
It also occurs to me to re-emphasize the beard and its association with Religous Judaiism orthodoxy.
I can see that this issue is very important to you. I suspect we both share the core value that peace and mutual respect of all people is very important. I’m sharing my perspective of dismay that...
I can see that this issue is very important to you. I suspect we both share the core value that peace and mutual respect of all people is very important.
I’m sharing my perspective of dismay that there are powerful forces, in this case IDF/ultra orthodox zionists and their global supporters, who do not share that value, and maybe utilizing mass media to spread their message.
I’m curious if you think IDF is incapable or unwilling to pursue such measures?
Not to be overly pedantic but "Jewish racism" is a bit of a confusing term since Jews aren't a race (there are white, brown, black, asian, etc Jews) but a people with shared elements of religion,...
Not to be overly pedantic but "Jewish racism" is a bit of a confusing term since Jews aren't a race (there are white, brown, black, asian, etc Jews) but a people with shared elements of religion, culture, tradition, language, and homeland. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism : antisemitism is not always thought of as a form of racism.
I had a prof in university explain the concept of Judaism really well. Judaism is a religion, ethnicity, and a world view. Sometimes it is a mixture of all three, but each aspect of Judaism can...
I had a prof in university explain the concept of Judaism really well. Judaism is a religion, ethnicity, and a world view. Sometimes it is a mixture of all three, but each aspect of Judaism can also exist on its own.
Unfortunately, the term "ethnic discrimination" has not really caught on--at least in the US. But this mirrors US thinking where discrimination might start due to a deeper ethnic stereotype but...
racism
Unfortunately, the term "ethnic discrimination" has not really caught on--at least in the US. But this mirrors US thinking where discrimination might start due to a deeper ethnic stereotype but then it spreads surface-level and skin-deep. Race might be overstated as a signifier of ethnicity but this quickly looses all meaning until it only signifies otherness. Thus racism is used in the US as an overloaded metonymy encompassing all forms of discrimination.
there are white, brown, black, asian, etc
The American focus on race is a bit shallow. If news channels focused a bit less on 1970s racial classification systems for the purpose of quickly explaining away people and more on showing and sharing ethnic cultural practices there might not be such a wide gap that separates people.
The term antisemitism is broadly used for discrimination against Jews, so that's where my confusion comes at the use of "Jewish racism". The phrase "Jewish race" has unpleasant associations for...
The term antisemitism is broadly used for discrimination against Jews, so that's where my confusion comes at the use of "Jewish racism". The phrase "Jewish race" has unpleasant associations for me.
I like the term "ethnic discrimination" - it would be helpful if we didn't need a specific term for discrimination against each individual ethnicity. You mention the US/American focus - in your experience, where in the world has more nuanced terminology taken hold?
It was just a shot of the pyramids without middle eastern looking people in the shot? That sounds silly I wonder if movies in America will / have started to self censor like they did in China and...
It was just a shot of the pyramids without middle eastern looking people in the shot? That sounds silly
I wonder if movies in America will / have started to self censor like they did in China and later in HK. Shoot a perfectly normal "scenes around the world during a planetary disaster moment" montage, and then going back into the film to crop out inconvenient people
We are a tribal creature. For basically all of history, humans have struggled to draw distinctions between the actions of a regime/government and the people group it represents. You can’t oppose...
We are a tribal creature. For basically all of history, humans have struggled to draw distinctions between the actions of a regime/government and the people group it represents. You can’t oppose Hitler without demonizing Germans. You can’t denounce Putin without condemning Russians. And TPTB have weaponized this cognitive weakness by blurring the lines between political loyalties and racialized hate.
It is okay to say Netanyahu is a genocidal, destructive force in the world. That does not make one an antisemite, no matter how loudly certain voices would declare it to be so. You can take a stand against the Israeli government without hating Jews. Likewise you can condemn the terrorism of Hamas without hating the Palestinian people or cheering for their annihilation. We humans aren’t good with nuance.
“Good old-fashioned” cartoonish antisemitism still exists, but lately I’m hearing the word tossed around by the right in different ways that are either horribly misinformed, or just bad faith appropriation of the term. When the people who are accusing others of antisemitism are themselves the ones who are bombing an ethnic group out of existence, vilifying and purging immigrants and minorities, eliminating marginalized groups from official historical records, and fucking Nazi saluting on stage… no one should take their accusations seriously. I imagine these people must be cackling and high-fiving each other behind closed doors because they managed to flip the script and label anti-racism as racist and vice versa. Nothing makes sense anymore.
To stay at a very high level, I think it would be prudent to be wary of framing someone who engages in combat - with symbols associated with and on the flag of a regime that is currently...
To stay at a very high level, I think it would be prudent to be wary of framing someone who engages in combat - with symbols associated with and on the flag of a regime that is currently conducting a genocide - in a positive light. It's easy to make a correlation between that character and someone in the IDF. Like others have said, time has marched on from when the characters and comic came out. Perspectives, power, and geopolitics have changed.
We shouldn't limit Jewish characters, but it's wise to consider how things are being framed given the current state of affairs. There is absolutely still anti-semitism in the USA and globally and is a continuing issue. And that is a separate issue to the absolute carnage the IDF is conducting in Gaza. I think considering how media can white wash organizations (meaning the IDF specifically) or launder soft power is a good idea in our era and especially in this country. US propaganda is prolific as is our propaganda for our allies.
It does not sound like there were Israeli symbols here. And I spoke very strongly about Islamophobia in a previous thread I will speak as strongly here. We cannot conflate an entire faith (or...
It does not sound like there were Israeli symbols here. And I spoke very strongly about Islamophobia in a previous thread I will speak as strongly here. We cannot conflate an entire faith (or ethnoreligious group) with the actions of a country no matter how horrible we find those actions. I'd be responding differently if for example Israeli imagery was being used and discussed.
But we shouldn't censor the Muslim imagery in Ms Marvel for the actions of Iran. I don't understand making the case to not have Jewish symbols at a synagogue.
The US propaganda in Marvel films is endemic, that makes perfect sense to highlight, but I firmly disagree with painting all Jewish symbols with that brush.
Edit: after seeing the claim that the ADL may have paid for this representation, I believe this to just be conspiratorial.
I think your points are valid and why this is a hard subject to discuss, it's easy to conflate the two. I'm just trying to say that nation states often use movies - and super hero movies in...
I think your points are valid and why this is a hard subject to discuss, it's easy to conflate the two. I'm just trying to say that nation states often use movies - and super hero movies in particular - as a method of soft power. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings is an example of Chinese soft power, Captain America is obvious American soft power, etc. Shang-Chi doesn't wear a hammer and sickle. I don't think that's a particularly novel take and I get in this context it can be contentious. We're in an era where countries can dictate what does and doesn't make the final cut.
I think super hero movies are used because they tend to be a clear justification of violence. It's why the US always remakes WWII movies. Why the UK leans on bond, WWI, and WWII so hard.
I'm not trying to stoke division here so I'll bow out after this.
Not all countries have that power, and there are news articles outlining it. If there were evidence of a foreign country doing something here rather than someone's discomfort with religious...
Not all countries have that power, and there are news articles outlining it. If there were evidence of a foreign country doing something here rather than someone's discomfort with religious symbolism in a literal religious building, I'd be open to listening to it. But I don't think the OP understands the faith well nor has much experience with Marvel properties to contrast similar characters of other faiths and backgrounds with.
I’m not sure which characters you’re referring to when you bring up a token Asian and a token black person. I can only imagine you’re talking about small one-line roles or background characters. I...
I’m not sure which characters you’re referring to when you bring up a token Asian and a token black person. I can only imagine you’re talking about small one-line roles or background characters.
I don’t think anything is being said here. This seems like a world were these concepts do not exist.
The only thing I can see is the U.S logos. But that, to me, is because they were heavily inspired by NASA’s footage.
I’m not suggesting that anything in the narrative is part of it. it’s the way the star of David was depicted so similarly to corporate logos in product placements (usually cars) in other movies....
I don’t think anything is being said here.
I’m not suggesting that anything in the narrative is part of it. it’s the way the star of David was depicted so similarly to corporate logos in product placements (usually cars) in other movies. Also the beard, a style choice favored by orthodox. It’s not just the fact that there is A Star of David, it’s the way it is portrayed.
This doesn’t apply directly to your comment, but this conversation reminds me so much of the covid leak controversy. Folks seemed to struggle with separating certain emotional subjects. In the covid origin study, people couldn’t seem to grasp that it could be true at the same time that the virus accidentally leaked and also was naturally occurring. Here, people seem to struggle that it can all be true at the same time that it’s Awesome the character is Jewish and the film includes subtle pro Israel propaganda.
I haven't seen the movie so I can't comment about it, but I can say that I've been seeing a lot of pro-America propaganda from car companies lately. One youtube ad selling whatever brand of car...
I haven't seen the movie so I can't comment about it, but I can say that I've been seeing a lot of pro-America propaganda from car companies lately. One youtube ad selling whatever brand of car has a line that goes "The only thing Americans can't do is stop being American". It's so cringe. I'm pretty sure they're doing these because they're trying to lobby the government for more policies that will make foreign cars unable to compete.
I'm not sure how much is playing off of and selling to the rabid America First crowd vs pandering to the government and it's sad that there's a possibility of confusion.
I'm not sure how much is playing off of and selling to the rabid America First crowd vs pandering to the government and it's sad that there's a possibility of confusion.
I haven't seen the movie yet, but Ben Grimm has been Jewish in the comics since the creators could publicly make him such. (It was more coded than explicit originally). But for 20+ years he's a character who has a second bar mitzvah, says the Shema, etc.
Black and white cookies are coded - Joe from the Midwest doesn't get New York City references, a Star of David isn't coded or regional.
It does not sound like this movie discussed Israel or Zionism or something, so I would not consider Ben Grimm's presence to be propaganda. I'm used to Marvel movies being US propaganda, usually military as par for the course, but I can't speak obviously to the overall plot or other representation in the film.
I just don't think representation of a Jewish character, is propaganda, no more than a queer or trans character would be propaganda or "shoving it in people's faces"
ETA: "a token Asian" - East or Southeast or Pacific Islander or.... Etc. Just as a Black person doesn't inherently tick the "Africa" box unless they're African. (And once again, Egyptian? Ghanaian? Where in Africa?)
We'd need a lot more context to be able to comment, and I'm sure that would require spoilers. I'd agree that MENA representation is often poor but a "token" anything is not good representation.
Very much agree with this, I remember Grimm's identity being colored in some day-to-day panels from the bit of 00's F4 I read when I was younger. But apologies -
I'm having trouble parsing that; a Star of David isn't [regional]?
Yeah, a star of david isn't regional. You don't think everybody knows the star of david is a Jewish symbol? It's about on par with crosses being Christian.
I'm well aware.
Realizing it's isn't [a New York reference] specifically, sorry.
I meant the Star of David isn't coded or regional, I edited for clarity.
Growing up in the 90s, a Star of David necklace and a kippah/yarmulke would have been the only two things I knew about Jewish people visual representation wise, and my non-denominational pre-school was in a synagogue.
First, the kids today have not seen Seinfeld, they have barely seen Friends. Secondly I can buy Black and White cookies at Jewel Osco, they're a "Chicago" cookie to me, not a Jewish one. Third, tbh lots of non-Jewish people go to Jewish delis!
But yes some people get a coded reference it's just not weird or over the top to have a Jewish character wear a Star of David.
Fun fact -- here in Germany, black and white cookies (or at least the closest equivalent; I didn't grow up eating them back in the States) are called "Amerikaner".
But ftr, lots of Americans are surprised when I tell them bagels are a Jewish thing. I think people who are either New Yorkers or are otherwise more familiar with Jewish people/culture than the average overestimate most peoples' knowledge.
Meanwhile, I definitely associate bagels with Jewish culture and foodways. But that was definitely not the case when I was a child eating only Lenders bagels from the refrigerated section. But that's before we could get fresh made bagels in cornfield IL
I'm around 30 and have seen that episode (even though it came out too early for me to have seen it anywhere close to it's original airing). Until this conversion just now I didn't know that black and white cookies were related to Judaism in any way. I personally would have made no connection between a cookie and a religion. I asked my wife and she wasn't aware that a character buying a black and white cookie was supposed to mean that they're Jewish either.
I'd obviously get things like wearing a star of David pin though.
It's really that they're associated with Jewish delis in NY. They're not inherently Jewish, but it's more like.... Someone ordering a pastrami on rye without commenting on not eating cheese or ham. Like someone eating fish on Friday would be coded as Catholic, eating a bunch of seafood on Christmas Eve would be Italian American (my family didn't do this one idk why), etc.
It's totally normal not to have that association with the cookies if you aren't in NYC or aren't around a lot of Jewish folks or absorbing Jewish media. Seinfeld did bring it to a lot of people's attention but I noted they're usually found at Jewel near me, that's a Chicago grocery store and for me the city association is higher than the religious/ethnic one.
(I've also only heard them called black and white cookies, not any of the other names)
I don’t know what MENA means, but I’m not saying there was good representation of anyone in the movie.
The Jewishness of the Ben character was really overdone, however, in my opinion. As opposed to the african rep of Black Panther, say. Especially given the complete absence of the representation of any Palestinians or Arab folks.
The Black person was at least in a leadership role.
I do get the show’s origins, but it’s no longer 1958.
I guess I’ll also emphasize the fact that making a commercial product placement style endorsement of Jewish identity in the current context of the Levant smells of the Ultra orthodox bent toward complete Palestenian domination/displacement. I would expect those in the orthodox+ zionist community probably are happy, for sure the ADL, maybe they paid for the placement.
One more thing I’ll add, Scorcese has depicted Jews and highlighted their Jewish identity, but it isn’t anything like this and is agnostic about the community as a whole. Compare John Wick’s depiction, as well as Adam Sandler’s Chaunaukah song.
Middle Eastern/North African
You came in saying it was propaganda - not just American propaganda which I'd agree with sight unseen; I think that's very different than saying "all the representation was bad"
I have dug a bit for Jewish opinions on the movie and they seem to feel it was quite well done. I don't know what "overdone" means and the complaint feels similar to those offered about Sam being Cap. Do you think Daredevil's Catholicism is overdone?
I can't find anything about him being a caricature. Fwiw the character is a nod to the Golem of Jewish legend, he's really not supposed to exist outside of that context.
Maybe all the rep was bad, but I don't see how that makes it propaganda in regards to Judaism or how you only note the total absence of MENA rep. It feels like you're implying the movie and the Jewish rep to be a statement on international affairs.
It seems to me like Superman made a much louder statement in that vein than this movie. Again, I haven't seen it yet, so maybe I'll come away with a different opinion but what you're sharing here is being annoyed that they made it obvious he was Jewish not that they did it badly.
ETA In regards to your edits, these are different genres. How do you think that the Hanukkah song is a meaningful comparison or contrast here?
ETA again, I missed your ADL claim here, Ben isn't Orthodox or UO or Chassid. This is conspiratorial thinking. The creator was Jewish. Ben Grimm is a comic version of the golem.
But if there’s no particular reason for them to be MENA other than apparently satisfying a quota — then wouldn’t that make them a token MENA character? Are you just arguing against the values of the quotas rather than the concept of quotas?
This smells like conspiratorial thinking honestly. The character is well known to be Jewish, they are a main character and a superhero, so their community is portrayed positively. I don’t think it’s any deeper than that. I definitely don’t think it’s promoting genocide.
I’m not sure what you are saying. Scorsese was agnostic about the community, and this (Fantastic Four) was not, which is a bad thing? Should depictions of the Jewish community only be neutral or negative? Doesn’t that sound — kind of a bit antisemitic?
Do we have any reason to think that these random New York Jews have any position at all on Palestine or what Israel is doing? Yet it seems like they are being painted with a broad brush that encompasses all Jews.
I don’t know what “MENA” means, but I infer it means Arabs, Palestinians, Persians and North African folks. I avoid “middle east” because of its eurocentric connotations.
My point is that if you are employing token ethnicities, you should have tomens from all ethnicities. And if you are going to highlight one or two in particular, it is suspicious if you leave out others that are in conflict with the ones highlighted. Especially if those left out are on the wring end of a power differential. It would be like highlighting the Japanese in an early 20th century mivie, including token S. Koreans, Pacific Islanders, Russiians, and leaving out provincial Chinese. Or in the 70s, highlighting the UK, tokenizing the Scots and Protestant Irish, and leaving out the Catholics. Jackson and the Irkoquois, leaving out the Cherokee. The list goes on.
The distinction is that this film seems to endorse and promote Jewish identity and hinting at an endorsement of orthodox Judaism. Scorcese amd others use Jewish identity to flesh out characters, but in a way that seems far more agnostic.
In a better timeline where there is peace in the Levant, or at least detente and parallel prosperity, this would be a fine thing. But we don’t live in that timeline.
Middle East and North Africa - Wikipedia
Or SWANA if you prefer.
Let's say this is an endorsement of "Orthodox" Judaism - although I sincerely doubt he's "Orthodox", he's probably Reform based on his attendance - so what? That isn't anything to do with the Levant. It's just a character's religion, one he shared with his creator and shares with his actor. Why is that propaganda.
It's hard for me to express how much it just fucking sucks to read this thread as a Jewish person. Just being Jewish in 2025 in an absolute slog.
My great grandmother came to this country as a young child with her mother and essentially nothing to their name. They were escaping the Russian pogroms, anti-Jewish riots that killed thousands, left countless more homeless and destitute. The lucky Jews escaped to America, to be discriminated against, but mostly left alone (except for those unlucky enough to be lynched by the KKK). The unlucky ones never made it out of Europe, and joined the millions of Jews that were systematically slaughtered a generation later.
Every Jew I know has stories like this. To be Jewish is to have the stories of your parents, or your grandparents, or your great grandparents baked into your bones. Stories of escape, of flight, of violence and fear.
Slowly, it started feeling safe to tell other stories. And to tell them in places that non-Jews could see them. And goddamn does it feel awesome to see your people in stories you love. Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, Nobody Wants This. And, yeah, a little weird to have your goy friends suddenly learning things about your culture through television shows. But it's kind of nice, too.
But then there's this government, an explicitly Jewish government, committing absolutely heinous atrocities. A military force directed by cowardly bigots, coopting the symbols of a faith rooted in community and diplomacy to brutalize an entire society. Harmony Hall, and all that.
Did you know that most Jews, globally, don't live in Israel? Even after the Holocaust. We spent so long without a homeland, most of us didn't go "back".
Judaism is not the modern nation of Israel, as much as the shitheads in power there would like to conflate the two. And it just absolutely blows to see a piece of media draw focus to the Jewishness of a character that's been explicitly Jewish for decades, and to see this thread in response.
I really have no appetite for getting into the weeds, but I'm struggling to contain my responses to some of this.
It is absolutely absurd to say that including a character from one minority background is propaganda because other minority backgrounds aren't represented. You did not think that Shang-Chi was Chinese propaganda because there were no Uyghur characters.
It is similarly absurd to say that storytellers should not have characters wearing religious symbols "engaging in combat". The Star of David is not owned by the modern state of Israel. It predates it by thousands of years. Ben Grimm's character, actions, and history are nothing like and have nothing to do with the state of Israel. He's a Jew. Jews wear Stars of David. Fuck.
I didn’t make this claim. The over/under representation is merely part of the story.
i’m curious, if I had a smoking gun that IDF intelligence inserted the scenes and imagery I find troubling, and also had a hand in keeping out images of Palestinians, would your opinion of this post change?
I don’t know who Shang Li is, but for the record, as much ad I love Donnie Yen I considered his inclusion in Rogue One to be suspect.
Shang-Chi is another Marvel character. A Chinese-American one in the films.
Actual eviidence for your claims would certainly make a difference. How a foreign country's military actively controlled the creation of this film would be very interesting, I'm sure.
This does just sound more conspiratorial. Yes, if you can prove your conspiracy rather than making vague suggestions with what seems to be a lack of understanding of the religion in question that would probably help, but I don't think you can and I am starting to think this thread should be closed.
What's the difference between a token [ethnicity] and a ... real? [ethnicity]?
That’s what OP is saying. What is the difference between an ethnicity that’s only there because of “the diversity quota” and a “real” one that’s there because they fit the story?
And not just needing to fit the story, but exists naturally.
It's a claim that that's the purpose, but the complaint then seems to be that there's not a "token" MENA character? Which doesn't make sense to me.
I feel like this is a unnecessary take and mostly incorrect or vague/borderline nonexistent thoughts that you dug deep for based on what media you've personally been consuming. I saw the movie, and none of this crossed my mind. The fantastic 4 comics came out right around the 60s, when the space race and culture were much different. The stuff in the trailers showing the 4 on grainy film, along with the shots of the spaceship are clearly homages to the reality of the time, the same shots of the apollo space ships and the footage is similar to that of Neil, Buzz, and Michael.
Having a story set in what the people of the 60s thought the future would look like isn't anything surprising and should have been extremely clear based on the trailers. The product placements are less hamfisted than other marvel movies? Iron man had the burger king product placement which has a nice story but it also has the Audi car Tony drives in..quite a lot, and lots of shots of it in the background in his lab, or the LG phone. Ads in time square are kinda the point of it, not seeing them would be more off putting than seeing them.
Others have already talked about your comments on "token ethnicities", I don't have anything do add.
But the half moon thing is extremely weird Complaining about a potential metaphor for unity is very weird when the premise of the entire movie was coming together for the greater good.
I’m not sire what you mean by half moon?
But you seem to have misunderstood what I meant by “product placements.” I meant that the Star of David was highlighted the way BMW’s are highlighted in mission impossible movies. They change the lighting and detail in such a way that you almost “have” to see it. My point then is that Jewish identity as a concept is depicted as an endorsement or propagandistic suggestion.
Half moons are a name for the cookies.
Highlighting the necklace is a hamfisted* way to highlight something for an audience you don't trust to catch on otherwise. It's extremely common in Marvel movies to stay focused on something plot relevant or ominous or that winks at the camera, whatever, to make sure people catch it.
What is the propaganda angle on a symbol for a religion that doesn't proselytize?
*Or stylized if I'm being less judgemental about it.
Ahh, on the half moons. FWIW, it’s not just a prop, like Russel Crowe(?) wears in that one cop movie. It’s a spotlighted decoration in a community center.
Is it the synagogue he goes to? Or a Jewish community center, because the reviews suggest he's at a shul which is a synagogue, and they may also host a community center for the non-religious social gatherings. I'd expect to see Jewish symbols there.
If so that seems like being annoyed at a giant crucifix in a Catholic Church or school. Like yeah it's dramatic IRL too but Roman Catholics don't do empty crosses for worship (or for diocesan decor in general, crucifixes in every classroom and office) and often but not always there's a fairly large one in the sanctuary.
Also I have no idea what you're referring to with Russel.Crowe, it doesn't seem relevant.im still not sure what you think the propaganda angle is here?
If there weren’t the awful things happening in the Levant, I might nit have even been triggered. I noticed Russel Crow’s necklace, because I am tuned to religious imagery, but did not conclude the movie (American Gangster, which did an awesome job depicting black folks as very human) was making any statement about Jewish identity or the situation in Palestine. Perhaps it is my own sensitivities-I am close to a Jordanian and associated with a couple Palestinians-but the spotlight on the awesomeness of Jews (and, the current Israeli government notwithstanding, Jews as a whole have done awesome things since at least 700 bce) feels overbearing and loaded. Let me know if you can at least perceive my point of view after seeing the movie.
I am really asking you to articulate it more clearly, how is there a spotlight on the awesomeness of Jewish people? Is that different than the awesomeness of Catholics in Daredevil
Was there mention of Israel or Palestine at all? Is this not the same as conflation of all of Islam with the government of Iran?
Edit: after your conspiratorial claims I can no longer take this criticism seriously.
Maybe just reserve judgment until you see the movie. It’s hardly ‘conspiratorial’ in the derogatory sense to suggest corporate media might have an antisocial agenda.
It also occurs to me to re-emphasize the beard and its association with Religous Judaiism orthodoxy.
Just wondering who paid for the Catholic rep in Daredevil? Or the Muslim rep in Ms Marvel?
I can see that this issue is very important to you. I suspect we both share the core value that peace and mutual respect of all people is very important.
I’m sharing my perspective of dismay that there are powerful forces, in this case IDF/ultra orthodox zionists and their global supporters, who do not share that value, and maybe utilizing mass media to spread their message.
I’m curious if you think IDF is incapable or unwilling to pursue such measures?
You ignoring my actual words, not answering my questions while asking a leading one is not evidence of good faith.
Not to be overly pedantic but "Jewish racism" is a bit of a confusing term since Jews aren't a race (there are white, brown, black, asian, etc Jews) but a people with shared elements of religion, culture, tradition, language, and homeland. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism : antisemitism is not always thought of as a form of racism.
I had a prof in university explain the concept of Judaism really well. Judaism is a religion, ethnicity, and a world view. Sometimes it is a mixture of all three, but each aspect of Judaism can also exist on its own.
Unfortunately, the term "ethnic discrimination" has not really caught on--at least in the US. But this mirrors US thinking where discrimination might start due to a deeper ethnic stereotype but then it spreads surface-level and skin-deep. Race might be overstated as a signifier of ethnicity but this quickly looses all meaning until it only signifies otherness. Thus racism is used in the US as an overloaded metonymy encompassing all forms of discrimination.
The American focus on race is a bit shallow. If news channels focused a bit less on 1970s racial classification systems for the purpose of quickly explaining away people and more on showing and sharing ethnic cultural practices there might not be such a wide gap that separates people.
The term antisemitism is broadly used for discrimination against Jews, so that's where my confusion comes at the use of "Jewish racism". The phrase "Jewish race" has unpleasant associations for me.
I like the term "ethnic discrimination" - it would be helpful if we didn't need a specific term for discrimination against each individual ethnicity. You mention the US/American focus - in your experience, where in the world has more nuanced terminology taken hold?
edited per your comment. You’ll note I nod toward the limitations of “racial” discrimination as well.
It was just a shot of the pyramids without middle eastern looking people in the shot? That sounds silly
I wonder if movies in America will / have started to self censor like they did in China and later in HK. Shoot a perfectly normal "scenes around the world during a planetary disaster moment" montage, and then going back into the film to crop out inconvenient people
We are a tribal creature. For basically all of history, humans have struggled to draw distinctions between the actions of a regime/government and the people group it represents. You can’t oppose Hitler without demonizing Germans. You can’t denounce Putin without condemning Russians. And TPTB have weaponized this cognitive weakness by blurring the lines between political loyalties and racialized hate.
It is okay to say Netanyahu is a genocidal, destructive force in the world. That does not make one an antisemite, no matter how loudly certain voices would declare it to be so. You can take a stand against the Israeli government without hating Jews. Likewise you can condemn the terrorism of Hamas without hating the Palestinian people or cheering for their annihilation. We humans aren’t good with nuance.
“Good old-fashioned” cartoonish antisemitism still exists, but lately I’m hearing the word tossed around by the right in different ways that are either horribly misinformed, or just bad faith appropriation of the term. When the people who are accusing others of antisemitism are themselves the ones who are bombing an ethnic group out of existence, vilifying and purging immigrants and minorities, eliminating marginalized groups from official historical records, and fucking Nazi saluting on stage… no one should take their accusations seriously. I imagine these people must be cackling and high-fiving each other behind closed doors because they managed to flip the script and label anti-racism as racist and vice versa. Nothing makes sense anymore.
To stay at a very high level, I think it would be prudent to be wary of framing someone who engages in combat - with symbols associated with and on the flag of a regime that is currently conducting a genocide - in a positive light. It's easy to make a correlation between that character and someone in the IDF. Like others have said, time has marched on from when the characters and comic came out. Perspectives, power, and geopolitics have changed.
We shouldn't limit Jewish characters, but it's wise to consider how things are being framed given the current state of affairs. There is absolutely still anti-semitism in the USA and globally and is a continuing issue. And that is a separate issue to the absolute carnage the IDF is conducting in Gaza. I think considering how media can white wash organizations (meaning the IDF specifically) or launder soft power is a good idea in our era and especially in this country. US propaganda is prolific as is our propaganda for our allies.
It does not sound like there were Israeli symbols here. And I spoke very strongly about Islamophobia in a previous thread I will speak as strongly here. We cannot conflate an entire faith (or ethnoreligious group) with the actions of a country no matter how horrible we find those actions. I'd be responding differently if for example Israeli imagery was being used and discussed.
But we shouldn't censor the Muslim imagery in Ms Marvel for the actions of Iran. I don't understand making the case to not have Jewish symbols at a synagogue.
The US propaganda in Marvel films is endemic, that makes perfect sense to highlight, but I firmly disagree with painting all Jewish symbols with that brush.
Edit: after seeing the claim that the ADL may have paid for this representation, I believe this to just be conspiratorial.
I'm amazed and grateful for your patience and persistence in this thread. Truly, thank you for insisting on nuance, thoughtfulness, and kindness.
I do not think we become allies to one group by tearing down another. Thanks for your kind words
𖡼𖤣𖥧𖡼𓋼𖤣𖥧𓋼𓍊
I think your points are valid and why this is a hard subject to discuss, it's easy to conflate the two. I'm just trying to say that nation states often use movies - and super hero movies in particular - as a method of soft power. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings is an example of Chinese soft power, Captain America is obvious American soft power, etc. Shang-Chi doesn't wear a hammer and sickle. I don't think that's a particularly novel take and I get in this context it can be contentious. We're in an era where countries can dictate what does and doesn't make the final cut.
I think super hero movies are used because they tend to be a clear justification of violence. It's why the US always remakes WWII movies. Why the UK leans on bond, WWI, and WWII so hard.
I'm not trying to stoke division here so I'll bow out after this.
Not all countries have that power, and there are news articles outlining it. If there were evidence of a foreign country doing something here rather than someone's discomfort with religious symbolism in a literal religious building, I'd be open to listening to it. But I don't think the OP understands the faith well nor has much experience with Marvel properties to contrast similar characters of other faiths and backgrounds with.
I’m not sure which characters you’re referring to when you bring up a token Asian and a token black person. I can only imagine you’re talking about small one-line roles or background characters.
I don’t think anything is being said here. This seems like a world were these concepts do not exist.
The only thing I can see is the U.S logos. But that, to me, is because they were heavily inspired by NASA’s footage.
I’m not suggesting that anything in the narrative is part of it. it’s the way the star of David was depicted so similarly to corporate logos in product placements (usually cars) in other movies. Also the beard, a style choice favored by orthodox. It’s not just the fact that there is A Star of David, it’s the way it is portrayed.
This doesn’t apply directly to your comment, but this conversation reminds me so much of the covid leak controversy. Folks seemed to struggle with separating certain emotional subjects. In the covid origin study, people couldn’t seem to grasp that it could be true at the same time that the virus accidentally leaked and also was naturally occurring. Here, people seem to struggle that it can all be true at the same time that it’s Awesome the character is Jewish and the film includes subtle pro Israel propaganda.
I haven't seen the movie so I can't comment about it, but I can say that I've been seeing a lot of pro-America propaganda from car companies lately. One youtube ad selling whatever brand of car has a line that goes "The only thing Americans can't do is stop being American". It's so cringe. I'm pretty sure they're doing these because they're trying to lobby the government for more policies that will make foreign cars unable to compete.
I'm not sure how much is playing off of and selling to the rabid America First crowd vs pandering to the government and it's sad that there's a possibility of confusion.