While I applaud her for being able to escape a one-track mindset, I inwardly groan every time I enter into the comment section on these videos. Full clarity: I am a Christian and a Liberal. I...
Exemplary
While I applaud her for being able to escape a one-track mindset, I inwardly groan every time I enter into the comment section on these videos.
Full clarity: I am a Christian and a Liberal. I personally think the teachings of Jesus Christ lead me more toward Liberal and Democrat ideology than Conservative/Republican.
Making the argument against religion as well as MAGA is a huge mistake. There are plenty of religious people who are liberal out there, and feel ostracized from the left and the right because it can feel at times there is no room for them in either party.
A lot of times it feels like nuance leaves the building in these conversations and it devolves into r/atheism. Would like to see a video of someone who was MAGA and left, independent of their religious choices.
I grew up Catholic. I no longer practice but I understand Christianity pretty well. I don't really know what atheists say because I don't really follow them. So the following is my impression from...
I grew up Catholic. I no longer practice but I understand Christianity pretty well. I don't really know what atheists say because I don't really follow them. So the following is my impression from being brought up in Christianity.
Christianity is at its core authoritarian. There is a guy who created everything and demands obedience and worship. If you don't do what he says, you will be punished.
The idea of control and punishment seems fair, especially if you were brought up in it. But you should realize that it is authoritarian and conservative.
I'm aware that many Christians are considered liberal or progressive. That's true to a point. They do not want to control other people directly. But they want and expect everyone controlled by the authority. Yes Jesus had teachings about turning the other cheek and loving everyone. But he didn't just talk about that. He talked about consequences for people who don't do that.
Churches arose out of this basic idea of a central authority and they build hierarchies around it. Popes and Cardinals and Bishops and Priests for Catholics, and various kinds of Elders and ministers for other forms of Christianity. It's all organized to exert control and authority over people.
MAGA is an extreme version of this. They love authority. They are authoritarian followers. (aside: So are evangelicals who are into The Rapture. I find the idea very sick, that they are going to be whisked away from the worlds problems and they can watch everyone else squirm and cry. Movies and books about the Rapture are basically torture porn like a Saw movie)
Contrast this with Buddhism. At it's core it isn't about authority. It's about an individual overcoming suffering through personal effort. So it's possible to have spirituality without it. I don't know much about Islam, but from my limited knowledge it seems like Christianity with even more authoritarianism.
I'm not saying that there aren't a million great things about Christianity and many Christians. But structurally it isn't surprising that it attracts authoritarians and authoritarian followers like MAGA.
Hm. I think this is a very western-ified view of Buddhism. There are theocratic buddhist states to this day. There have been many great buddhist empires throughout history, and in the practiced...
Contrast this with Buddhism.
Hm. I think this is a very western-ified view of Buddhism.
There are theocratic buddhist states to this day. There have been many great buddhist empires throughout history, and in the practiced forms of Buddhism in China and Southeast Asia and India, it can be just as authoritarian as any of the religions derived from Judaism. In particular, much of the Buddhism that took hold in East Asia comes from Great Vehicle Buddhism, where Amitabha has a similar role to Jesus, and you enter the pure land through the Great Vehicle of Amitabha by their mercy.
It's a bit of selection bias. The religions useful for the state, and useful for control tend to survive; the ones that are troublesome to the state, tend to disappear, often by force.
This is true of Christianity as well. We know from preserved writings that there were many, now deemed heretical, branches of Christianity like Marcionism and early Gnosticism that did not have the authoritarian aura of the christianity that survived, and we know that the early founders of what would become the Christian church fought very hard to smother them as heresy.
All that being said, I suppose the main thing I want to get across is that as someone who grew up with parents who were (sort of) practicing buddhists, people have a very hippy-dippy, secularized view of Buddhism which isn't really how it's practiced.
I don't mention it online often but I was raised Christian and still hold the beliefs. I grew up in a Republican environment but felt alientated by them when Trump was fully embraced by the right....
I don't mention it online often but I was raised Christian and still hold the beliefs.
I grew up in a Republican environment but felt alientated by them when Trump was fully embraced by the right. It took me a couple more years go from feeling mostly independent to left and I credit that final change to thinking about Jesus' teachings and how they should apply to our world today.
I think it can be boiled down to two verses: (paraphrasing) "Love God, love others" and "do not judge others or you too will be judged ... first take the plank out of your own eye". In these verses, Jesus is clearly telling His followers to mind their own business except when it comes to showing love to each other. The modern Republican platform is pretty much the antithesis of this. Upon realizing that, and that the left much more closely aligns with the ideas in the form of taking care of the poor, treating immigrants with humanity, and just in general looking after those in need, I really couldn't see any other way forward than to abandon the right and support the left. Even if the left may support things that could be considered sins, Jesus himself says that's not for me to worry about. It is our responsibility to show love to our fellow humans and let God worry about the rest.
I'm not Christian, and I'd tend to agree. However, given how widespread evangelical Christianity is in the US (in which you are not exactly encouraged to exercise critical thinking skills) as well...
I personally think the teachings of Jesus Christ lead me more toward Liberal and Democrat ideology than Conservative/Republican.
I'm not Christian, and I'd tend to agree. However, given how widespread evangelical Christianity is in the US (in which you are not exactly encouraged to exercise critical thinking skills) as well as how important the social component to religious identity can be, I wouldn't find it especially surprising for disillusioned people to conflate all the various flavors into Christianity on the whole. Most people, even with the best of intentions, are to some degree or another just kinda following along with what their authority figures or peer members of their in-group say or do, not necessarily pursuing an individual, informed spiritual practice, so they don't really know any better. Even the ones who do are typically operating within a received framework.
Making the argument against religion as well as MAGA is a huge mistake. There are plenty of religious people who are liberal out there, and feel ostracized from the left and the right because it can feel at times there is no room for them in either party.
You are probably more sensitive to this than I am, but I didn't note much anti-religion sentiment in the comments of this particular video. Even in her own story, to me the step away from Christianity and religion on the whole seemed more of a by-the-way thing than a case she made. Having said that, a progression toward skepticism, if not eventual atheism, is kind of a logical outgrowth of a practice of critical thinking. Religions generally have enough contradictions or things required to be accepted on faith that it just becomes a question of where you are willing to draw your line to claim satisfaction. I imagine if someone said they left MAGA due to viewing things primarily as a moral conflict (e.g. "nothing about MAGA seems to demonstrate loving thy neighbor as Jesus commanded") as opposed to an intellectual conflict (e.g. "Trump firing people all the time probably means he's not that great at picking the right people for the job in the first place"), they'd be less likely to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For her it seems like a mix of the two but she gives critical thinking precedence.
No offense intended by anything said here; I do not want this to devolve into an atheism argument any more than you do.
The terrible, horrible trap that online atheism has fallen into is prosthetizing. I'm a lifelong atheist. I personally do not care, nor have I ever cared about whether people around me also don't...
The terrible, horrible trap that online atheism has fallen into is prosthetizing. I'm a lifelong atheist. I personally do not care, nor have I ever cared about whether people around me also don't believe in a god or not. It's none of my business what their religion or lack of a religion is, and vice versa.
I think online atheist communities stated because people lived in religious communities that tried to impose their religions on them. When a Christian tries to get me to pray, or make it difficult for me or people I love to get medical care, or makes it illegal for my friends to get married, then I, and many other atheists have a problem with that, and a lot of those communities started to talk about those things; the negative effects that religious people trying to get others to conform to their beliefs causes.
However they quickly morphed into trying to change people's beliefs about God. I have no interest in that. I don't need to read arguments about God not existing, I already don't believe in God. I have no desire to debate someone about the existence of God, because someone believing has zero effect on me unless they try to impose those beliefs on me. How hypocritical would I be if I tried imposing my beliefs on them instead?
So yes, I agree with you. Positioning liberalism as a counter point to Christianity is a mistake. It's not just a mistake because of practical terms, it's a mistake because the entire point of liberalism is liberty, which means your personal religious beliefs are tolerated, whatever those beliefs are.
It's the same for me. I'm a second-generation atheist (my parents became atheists before I was born), and while of course I am threatened by anti-atheist sentiment and anti-atheist legislation, I...
It's the same for me. I'm a second-generation atheist (my parents became atheists before I was born), and while of course I am threatened by anti-atheist sentiment and anti-atheist legislation, I really have no interest in converting people to atheism. I have absolutely no qualms socializing with theists, dating theists, etc., etc., so long as they accept me as well. Several of my close friends are deeply religious Christians, and I think it's one of their most fascinating characteristics; why would I want to change something so cool about them?
But I've noticed that a lot of first-generation atheists are far less tolerant of religion. My parents are both activist atheists, for example, and it drives me a little insane sometimes. I do like discussing the philosophy of atheism with them, but I don't really like it when it veers into them wanting religious people to change their beliefs.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, my dating history includes both deeply religious Christians and second+ generation atheists — but no one who converted to atheism later in life. (I'm not saying I would never hypothetically date a new convert, but it's rare for me to meet one who doesn't drive me a little crazy.)
As atheism gets more popular and it increasingly becomes something you're born into rather than switch to, I think (hope) this particular issue will die down.
I think often, you just don't know who those first generation atheists are if they're not talking about it all the time. I'm one of those who lost faith, experienced a small amount of religious...
I think often, you just don't know who those first generation atheists are if they're not talking about it all the time. I'm one of those who lost faith, experienced a small amount of religious trauma, but not any sort of horribly abusive situation, and I accept and try to deliberately acknowledge that we live in a culturally Christian context In the US.
But I also came to honestly more of an agnosticism after looking for answers in a lot of different places which was also after leaving the Catholic church. I'm an atheist in a sense that I don't believe anything, but I'm an agnostic in the sense that I wish I did. Basically I'm not a gnostic atheist. Like you, it rarely comes up unless someone is deliberately targeting non-christians or I'm sharing my beliefs in a deeper conversation. I was never an anti-theist (at least I don't recall it, maybe I was and it was just long enough ago I don't recall) and for me losing my faith was genuinely a sad moment.
But especially when it comes to sects that persist in pursuing you and trying to compel you to remain within the Christian church, I think the backlash becomes an even stronger one. That could be something that is tied to the faith like being Amish or Mormon. Or it could be something culturally with your family where no longer being Catholic is the end of your mother's world.
I think this is why the atheism subreddit or the ex-mo/ex-muslim/ex-insert faith here communities often became so harsh (and the child-free communities) because mostly they're populated by people focusing on why they're not the other thing which is not a great way to position your life.
Anyway, some of us do exist, IME it depends on how much trauma there is and how much social pressure there is to re-conform but also most of the folks in a similar boat I know are queer AF.
The problem is for people escaping right wing religious ideology they are inseparable to them. I gave up Christianity wholesale when I realized my ministers were ignorant hateful goobers, their...
The problem is for people escaping right wing religious ideology they are inseparable to them. I gave up Christianity wholesale when I realized my ministers were ignorant hateful goobers, their followers were book-burning hypocrites, and my church/denomination's teachings did not align with those of Christ. Mine wasn't a particularly problematic separation, and the core values I liked still guide me.
When one peg falls the entire structure collapses, and I feel must collapse. If one wishes to rebuild and finds fellowship with a new group that aligns with their own values, but usually those of us who broke away from our fold did so through great necessity, mental effort and suffering (yes, even in my self-driven, easy case), and that leaves a mark.
I agree there is a lot of condemnation of Christianity that many Christians don't deserve. Had a political science professor who was great and would have definitely gone to anything hosted at his church that he invited us to. My brother has a friend who is a pastor's daughter and went to his fellowship gatherings and said "If that was our church I'd be a Christian still."
I don't think the swing to /r/atheism is necessary (I regrettably went that way but felt even they were pretty far out there), but I wholeheartedly agree that we shouldn't discriminate on religious affiliation but what that position is used to justify.
It's probably also worth pointing out just how r/atheism really boils down to r/notChristianity in practice. Christianity is one of the big 3, but it comes off as very self centered to damn the...
It's probably also worth pointing out just how r/atheism really boils down to r/notChristianity in practice. Christianity is one of the big 3, but it comes off as very self centered to damn the entire religious world based on the actions of the worst American Zealots and grifters.
This does of course undersell the other side of the equation, what with basically every major religion or religious organization having literal centuries if not more of atrocities to their name, but I've found the focus on religion an odd one. I don't know of any group that has managed to wield influence or power over a quarter of the globe and come out looking remotely clean.
I’m kind of fascinated by the dichotomies in Christianity and how people respond to it. There have been other good points in this post about Jesus’ teachings. Jesus had a new covenant which is...
I’m kind of fascinated by the dichotomies in Christianity and how people respond to it.
There have been other good points in this post about Jesus’ teachings.
Jesus had a new covenant which is based on forgiveness and grace instead of adherence to law. And that’s a great message.
But if you think about it, it’s still authoritarian. You can only be saved through Christ. You can only know Christ through his church. You still have concepts of sin against a god.
Many of us love Christmas and the music and the message of love and forgiveness and having a savior. But listen to the religious Christmas music carefully. It’s about worship and being saved from sin. The concept of worship is so authoritarian I can hardly wrap my head around it even though I was born into religion.
To come back to the MAGA discussion: It’s a cult that worships a leader, and the followers were taught this behavior through religion.
That was how the positive aspects of my Roman Catholic education and theology were. Many evangelicals didn't consider me "saved" despite my being baptized and all. And I took great theology...
That was how the positive aspects of my Roman Catholic education and theology were. Many evangelicals didn't consider me "saved" despite my being baptized and all. And I took great theology classes at a Jesuit university, one taught by a former Anglican monk in fact. I learned about the Big Bang and Evolution and everything. Questioning was encouraged as was your own discernment.
But certainly there's an "authority" involved even in the most positive of experiences because there's always a divine one. I'd agree though that the ideal is "hey you worship this god out of (actual) awe not because you were told you should" but I don't think that finding the whole thing authoritarian in nature is only an American experience. At a minimum, the pope exists. Much has changed from 2k years ago, and (presuming post resurrection time frame) I'd suspect very few people practice that way now or have the same social/political benefits in getting out from the existing religious hierarchy by following the followers of an apocalyptic Jewish preacher.
I think your experience isn't that different than many Catholic parishes in the US in my experience (and those of many of other, potentially "high church" denominations) But not all which I think...
I think your experience isn't that different than many Catholic parishes in the US in my experience (and those of many of other, potentially "high church" denominations) But not all which I think is the thing.
It can vary quite a bit depending on who the priest/pastor is and there are some very conservative Catholics out there around the world who are more aligned with the theology of JD Vance than the Pope. I'm not including any of the Calvinist/evangelical churches in this discussion (though might I point out that if England hadn't been like GTFO they wouldn't be America's problem ಠ_ʖಠ).
You might vibe with a UU church though, I keep considering attending.
I can definitely understand not feeling the authoritarianism individually, I just also think that if you look at it, there's definitely Authority involved, regardless of whether it's kind or cruel.
Even just considering the NT - Love the Lord your God and Love thy Neighbor as thyself are still commandments. Even just in a service led by only specific people.
But I do think if you're engaging in a fairly atheistic or more vaguely deistic way - if Jesus isn't the Christ and also God for example - then yeah there's not a lot of bossing people around. But it's harder to file that under "Christianity" proper at that point IMO. I might have kept attending church in those circumstances though.
I think there's definitely a "high church" split here but I'd also probably flag Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations as being more structurally consistent and hierarchal by nature. So high...
I think there's definitely a "high church" split here but I'd also probably flag Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations as being more structurally consistent and hierarchal by nature. So high church Protestant mostly? I'm not denying your experience and it aligns with a lot of my perceptions of, say, Anglican or (some) Methodist churches in general, though I've not been a member.
I don't think I have any Christian friends who'd toss me into a "going to hell" category, the family I have who I don't speak with would probably make a mental exception for me, but they've trended more (American) politically conservative, where in contrast my grandparents' generation might not have approved of some things but wouldn't have condemned my soul for them.
But then I live in a town of less than 3k and there are six listed churches here, all some variety of Christian that must be different from the others in some way meaningful to each other. Two run food pantries, but I don't know their theologies (I'm probably going to go look now), maybe one or two is closer to "have a scone and we'd love to see you next week" than "you'll burn in hell".
I do have a few Quaker and UU friends and I like both approaches to faith quite a bit. And I can acknowledge that I find a lot of peace in tradition and repetition. Catholic Mass is meditative for its structure and there's something sacred about coming together in a similar way as billions of others, past and present, in the way that telling stories is sacred or cooking food is sacred. Which is to say I can see a great amount of appeal there.
It's also worth noting that part of my reasoning for objecting to calling this an American thing is evidenced by talking about a subset of European churches and US ones, and not really engaging with the rest of the world. I suspect each of our experiences do reflect our broader cultures. And the churches in South America, Africa, Eastern Europe, Russia, etc are all going to bring their own levels of authoritarianism (or lack thereof). In the same way Americans often have a narrow view I think only focusing on (north?) western Europe is only broader by a few degrees population-wise, and there is still sectarian violence there despite that
I mostly just wish I believed in something, though I'm humanist enough, I'm pretty sure I believe in people. I doubt I would sign up for even the gentlest Christian faith at this point. But I do...
I mostly just wish I believed in something, though I'm humanist enough, I'm pretty sure I believe in people. I doubt I would sign up for even the gentlest Christian faith at this point.
But I do like the 7 UU principles as a starting point
1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
2nd Principle: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part
Like minded people picking the parts they like and distancing themselves from the parts they don't to try and create Christianity-final-final-EDITSincorporated-v3-consulted(DRAFT).docx.
This reminds me of a joke:
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.
I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
Without belief that he was divine and such, historical Jesus just makes me sad and demonstrates how much harm we will do to each other. He thought the world would end, and it didn't. He was...
Without belief that he was divine and such, historical Jesus just makes me sad and demonstrates how much harm we will do to each other. He thought the world would end, and it didn't. He was brutally tortured and killed for his theology. And his followers pretty much immediately dropped his top two commandments.
I believe in cats, though. Cats are nice
Ah yes, GNU Sir Pterry:
'What is there in this world that makes living worth while?’
This is far from universal. I'm an avowed atheist, but my Christian friends believe I will go to heaven. They think that God isn't heartless or an idiot and that he knows who we all are inside....
You can only be saved through Christ. You can only know Christ through his church. You still have concepts of sin against a god.
This is far from universal.
I'm an avowed atheist, but my Christian friends believe I will go to heaven. They think that God isn't heartless or an idiot and that he knows who we all are inside.
Evangelical Christians broadly feel otherwise, of course, and they're very common and very politically influential in the US. But they are just one flavor of Christianity; they are definitely not such a dominant force worldwide, and their beliefs about God and the afterlife should not be treated as inherent to the religion.
The Bible is so large and told through the eyes of so many prophets that you can support any political spectrum you want. And sadly, that's been abused for decades at this point. Trust in many...
The Bible is so large and told through the eyes of so many prophets that you can support any political spectrum you want. And sadly, that's been abused for decades at this point. Trust in many churches in their interpretations and institutions as a whole weakened the trust among many liberal minds.
It can also be very generational. I was raised by my grandparents and they were highly religious. I only associate religion with restricting what I can't do, as opposed to what guidance to take in life. No water guns, no trick or treating, one of my two weekend days were spent going to a place where I had no friends and had to dress up for said lack of friends. I even had a short spell where I had to convince my grandma that pokemon was not in fact about summoning demons. So I don't have great memories despite probably knowing more of the Bible than the average church goer.
I'm not sure where I was really going here. I guess I'm just saying that I wouldn't be surprised if my experiences aren't unique. It's a shame because churches do feel like one of the last true third places. Outside of tithes you never need to pay to participate and churches in fact have food drives for those in need.
So much of this resonates with my childhood experiences. No Pokémon (for the same reason), no Harry Potter (long before the author’s problematic nature was known), no Halloween. Anything with...
So much of this resonates with my childhood experiences. No Pokémon (for the same reason), no Harry Potter (long before the author’s problematic nature was known), no Halloween. Anything with references to magic or similar was on thin ice. Church was the place where I’d sit and be bored out of my skull for a few hours as the pastor held a “hellfire and brimstone” style sermon or ranted about how something of practically zero consequence was proof of how the world looked down on Christians and the seed from which their persecution during the end times would bloom (depending on the church). Best case scenario they’d talk about something more innocuous that they’d covered already 5 times before.
Some of the people were fine and even lovely outside of services but similarly, I don’t have a lot of fond memories associated with church.
I was raised in a very liberal and small Christian sect. It’s anarchist and pacifist. It does have the problem that it doesn’t brainwash children hard enough and nearly all of the people in my...
I was raised in a very liberal and small Christian sect. It’s anarchist and pacifist. It does have the problem that it doesn’t brainwash children hard enough and nearly all of the people in my childhood cohort are atheist or non-practicing. I do hope the religion lives on though.
Hey, sounds like we’re in a similar boat! Pray for us - the Christian University I work at is finally going to bend to student (and some loud external) pressure to add a TurningPointUSA chapter....
Hey, sounds like we’re in a similar boat!
Pray for us - the Christian University I work at is finally going to bend to student (and some loud external) pressure to add a TurningPointUSA chapter. Most of the faculty and a good chunk of the staff are less than thrilled.
This was an interesting watch. It's been a while since I've peered into the exmormon community, and I haven't seen a story like hers attached to MAGA politics. It's a fairly unique perspective...
This was an interesting watch. It's been a while since I've peered into the exmormon community, and I haven't seen a story like hers attached to MAGA politics. It's a fairly unique perspective that is different from other 'how I left the right' videos that I've seen, like this one that is presented by someone who was radicalized by the internet.
I grew up in a very Mormon community and I know about a dozen copies of this woman - even down to the essential oils MLM. I am not, and have never been, a Mormon, but my uncle and his family are very devout Mormons. Like many of the other Mormons I know, they are kind, intelligent, and successful people who are undoubtedly capable of empathy and critical thinking. Nevertheless, my uncle and his family all buy into the white christian nationalist thinking that this woman describes, which is mind blowing to me because our shared relative was a Muslim immigrant who was the walking, talking antithesis to one of MAGA's core arguments. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't want to be pedantic or nitpicky, because everything is in her video, but I do want to emphasize that this woman's deprogramming didn't come from a sudden epiphany brought on by critical thinking, as the title might suggest. Rather, it was a period of personal crisis that opened the door to her examining her values and beliefs through a critical lens. I think it's an important distinction to make when dealing with a person whose politics are directly tied to their faith.
This woman shows the powerful connection between faith, institutions, identity, and politics, and how they all feed off of each other. When I was in college, one of my professors told us that argument and persuasion had little to no effect on matters of religious faith. He used to say that the only way to make or break someone's true belief in a higher power was a significant emotional experience. That's what happened to this woman. She, like my uncle and his family, had a powerful feedback loop between identity, institutions, and politics, and the driving force at the center of it all was faith. It doesn't matter how many conversations I have with my uncle and his family, they won't budge because the thing that's holding this all together is the true belief in a higher power. A shitposting gamer edgelord might be able to think his way out of MAGA politics, but people like my uncle have to feel their way out of it first.
I guess if there is a hidden lesson to take from this video, it's that you're better off being a friendly lesbian than a wannabe Socrates lefty atheist douchebag.
A self-described former MAGA Mormon trad wife explains the stages of her gradual rejection of the ideologies she'd long held as her way of life. @Mendanbar - this is a bit of a different premise...
A self-described former MAGA Mormon trad wife explains the stages of her gradual rejection of the ideologies she'd long held as her way of life.
@Mendanbar - this is a bit of a different premise so it may not apply to people you know, but maybe you might find this a useful example of how certain ideas are often intertwined.
While I applaud her for being able to escape a one-track mindset, I inwardly groan every time I enter into the comment section on these videos.
Full clarity: I am a Christian and a Liberal. I personally think the teachings of Jesus Christ lead me more toward Liberal and Democrat ideology than Conservative/Republican.
Making the argument against religion as well as MAGA is a huge mistake. There are plenty of religious people who are liberal out there, and feel ostracized from the left and the right because it can feel at times there is no room for them in either party.
A lot of times it feels like nuance leaves the building in these conversations and it devolves into r/atheism. Would like to see a video of someone who was MAGA and left, independent of their religious choices.
I grew up Catholic. I no longer practice but I understand Christianity pretty well. I don't really know what atheists say because I don't really follow them. So the following is my impression from being brought up in Christianity.
Christianity is at its core authoritarian. There is a guy who created everything and demands obedience and worship. If you don't do what he says, you will be punished.
The idea of control and punishment seems fair, especially if you were brought up in it. But you should realize that it is authoritarian and conservative.
I'm aware that many Christians are considered liberal or progressive. That's true to a point. They do not want to control other people directly. But they want and expect everyone controlled by the authority. Yes Jesus had teachings about turning the other cheek and loving everyone. But he didn't just talk about that. He talked about consequences for people who don't do that.
Churches arose out of this basic idea of a central authority and they build hierarchies around it. Popes and Cardinals and Bishops and Priests for Catholics, and various kinds of Elders and ministers for other forms of Christianity. It's all organized to exert control and authority over people.
MAGA is an extreme version of this. They love authority. They are authoritarian followers. (aside: So are evangelicals who are into The Rapture. I find the idea very sick, that they are going to be whisked away from the worlds problems and they can watch everyone else squirm and cry. Movies and books about the Rapture are basically torture porn like a Saw movie)
Contrast this with Buddhism. At it's core it isn't about authority. It's about an individual overcoming suffering through personal effort. So it's possible to have spirituality without it. I don't know much about Islam, but from my limited knowledge it seems like Christianity with even more authoritarianism.
I'm not saying that there aren't a million great things about Christianity and many Christians. But structurally it isn't surprising that it attracts authoritarians and authoritarian followers like MAGA.
Hm. I think this is a very western-ified view of Buddhism.
There are theocratic buddhist states to this day. There have been many great buddhist empires throughout history, and in the practiced forms of Buddhism in China and Southeast Asia and India, it can be just as authoritarian as any of the religions derived from Judaism. In particular, much of the Buddhism that took hold in East Asia comes from Great Vehicle Buddhism, where Amitabha has a similar role to Jesus, and you enter the pure land through the Great Vehicle of Amitabha by their mercy.
It's a bit of selection bias. The religions useful for the state, and useful for control tend to survive; the ones that are troublesome to the state, tend to disappear, often by force.
This is true of Christianity as well. We know from preserved writings that there were many, now deemed heretical, branches of Christianity like Marcionism and early Gnosticism that did not have the authoritarian aura of the christianity that survived, and we know that the early founders of what would become the Christian church fought very hard to smother them as heresy.
All that being said, I suppose the main thing I want to get across is that as someone who grew up with parents who were (sort of) practicing buddhists, people have a very hippy-dippy, secularized view of Buddhism which isn't really how it's practiced.
I don't mention it online often but I was raised Christian and still hold the beliefs.
I grew up in a Republican environment but felt alientated by them when Trump was fully embraced by the right. It took me a couple more years go from feeling mostly independent to left and I credit that final change to thinking about Jesus' teachings and how they should apply to our world today.
I think it can be boiled down to two verses: (paraphrasing) "Love God, love others" and "do not judge others or you too will be judged ... first take the plank out of your own eye". In these verses, Jesus is clearly telling His followers to mind their own business except when it comes to showing love to each other. The modern Republican platform is pretty much the antithesis of this. Upon realizing that, and that the left much more closely aligns with the ideas in the form of taking care of the poor, treating immigrants with humanity, and just in general looking after those in need, I really couldn't see any other way forward than to abandon the right and support the left. Even if the left may support things that could be considered sins, Jesus himself says that's not for me to worry about. It is our responsibility to show love to our fellow humans and let God worry about the rest.
I'm not Christian, and I'd tend to agree. However, given how widespread evangelical Christianity is in the US (in which you are not exactly encouraged to exercise critical thinking skills) as well as how important the social component to religious identity can be, I wouldn't find it especially surprising for disillusioned people to conflate all the various flavors into Christianity on the whole. Most people, even with the best of intentions, are to some degree or another just kinda following along with what their authority figures or peer members of their in-group say or do, not necessarily pursuing an individual, informed spiritual practice, so they don't really know any better. Even the ones who do are typically operating within a received framework.
You are probably more sensitive to this than I am, but I didn't note much anti-religion sentiment in the comments of this particular video. Even in her own story, to me the step away from Christianity and religion on the whole seemed more of a by-the-way thing than a case she made. Having said that, a progression toward skepticism, if not eventual atheism, is kind of a logical outgrowth of a practice of critical thinking. Religions generally have enough contradictions or things required to be accepted on faith that it just becomes a question of where you are willing to draw your line to claim satisfaction. I imagine if someone said they left MAGA due to viewing things primarily as a moral conflict (e.g. "nothing about MAGA seems to demonstrate loving thy neighbor as Jesus commanded") as opposed to an intellectual conflict (e.g. "Trump firing people all the time probably means he's not that great at picking the right people for the job in the first place"), they'd be less likely to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For her it seems like a mix of the two but she gives critical thinking precedence.
No offense intended by anything said here; I do not want this to devolve into an atheism argument any more than you do.
The terrible, horrible trap that online atheism has fallen into is prosthetizing. I'm a lifelong atheist. I personally do not care, nor have I ever cared about whether people around me also don't believe in a god or not. It's none of my business what their religion or lack of a religion is, and vice versa.
I think online atheist communities stated because people lived in religious communities that tried to impose their religions on them. When a Christian tries to get me to pray, or make it difficult for me or people I love to get medical care, or makes it illegal for my friends to get married, then I, and many other atheists have a problem with that, and a lot of those communities started to talk about those things; the negative effects that religious people trying to get others to conform to their beliefs causes.
However they quickly morphed into trying to change people's beliefs about God. I have no interest in that. I don't need to read arguments about God not existing, I already don't believe in God. I have no desire to debate someone about the existence of God, because someone believing has zero effect on me unless they try to impose those beliefs on me. How hypocritical would I be if I tried imposing my beliefs on them instead?
So yes, I agree with you. Positioning liberalism as a counter point to Christianity is a mistake. It's not just a mistake because of practical terms, it's a mistake because the entire point of liberalism is liberty, which means your personal religious beliefs are tolerated, whatever those beliefs are.
It's the same for me. I'm a second-generation atheist (my parents became atheists before I was born), and while of course I am threatened by anti-atheist sentiment and anti-atheist legislation, I really have no interest in converting people to atheism. I have absolutely no qualms socializing with theists, dating theists, etc., etc., so long as they accept me as well. Several of my close friends are deeply religious Christians, and I think it's one of their most fascinating characteristics; why would I want to change something so cool about them?
But I've noticed that a lot of first-generation atheists are far less tolerant of religion. My parents are both activist atheists, for example, and it drives me a little insane sometimes. I do like discussing the philosophy of atheism with them, but I don't really like it when it veers into them wanting religious people to change their beliefs.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, my dating history includes both deeply religious Christians and second+ generation atheists — but no one who converted to atheism later in life. (I'm not saying I would never hypothetically date a new convert, but it's rare for me to meet one who doesn't drive me a little crazy.)
As atheism gets more popular and it increasingly becomes something you're born into rather than switch to, I think (hope) this particular issue will die down.
I think often, you just don't know who those first generation atheists are if they're not talking about it all the time. I'm one of those who lost faith, experienced a small amount of religious trauma, but not any sort of horribly abusive situation, and I accept and try to deliberately acknowledge that we live in a culturally Christian context In the US.
But I also came to honestly more of an agnosticism after looking for answers in a lot of different places which was also after leaving the Catholic church. I'm an atheist in a sense that I don't believe anything, but I'm an agnostic in the sense that I wish I did. Basically I'm not a gnostic atheist. Like you, it rarely comes up unless someone is deliberately targeting non-christians or I'm sharing my beliefs in a deeper conversation. I was never an anti-theist (at least I don't recall it, maybe I was and it was just long enough ago I don't recall) and for me losing my faith was genuinely a sad moment.
But especially when it comes to sects that persist in pursuing you and trying to compel you to remain within the Christian church, I think the backlash becomes an even stronger one. That could be something that is tied to the faith like being Amish or Mormon. Or it could be something culturally with your family where no longer being Catholic is the end of your mother's world.
I think this is why the atheism subreddit or the ex-mo/ex-muslim/ex-insert faith here communities often became so harsh (and the child-free communities) because mostly they're populated by people focusing on why they're not the other thing which is not a great way to position your life.
Anyway, some of us do exist, IME it depends on how much trauma there is and how much social pressure there is to re-conform but also most of the folks in a similar boat I know are queer AF.
The problem is for people escaping right wing religious ideology they are inseparable to them. I gave up Christianity wholesale when I realized my ministers were ignorant hateful goobers, their followers were book-burning hypocrites, and my church/denomination's teachings did not align with those of Christ. Mine wasn't a particularly problematic separation, and the core values I liked still guide me.
When one peg falls the entire structure collapses, and I feel must collapse. If one wishes to rebuild and finds fellowship with a new group that aligns with their own values, but usually those of us who broke away from our fold did so through great necessity, mental effort and suffering (yes, even in my self-driven, easy case), and that leaves a mark.
I agree there is a lot of condemnation of Christianity that many Christians don't deserve. Had a political science professor who was great and would have definitely gone to anything hosted at his church that he invited us to. My brother has a friend who is a pastor's daughter and went to his fellowship gatherings and said "If that was our church I'd be a Christian still."
I don't think the swing to /r/atheism is necessary (I regrettably went that way but felt even they were pretty far out there), but I wholeheartedly agree that we shouldn't discriminate on religious affiliation but what that position is used to justify.
It's probably also worth pointing out just how r/atheism really boils down to r/notChristianity in practice. Christianity is one of the big 3, but it comes off as very self centered to damn the entire religious world based on the actions of the worst American Zealots and grifters.
This does of course undersell the other side of the equation, what with basically every major religion or religious organization having literal centuries if not more of atrocities to their name, but I've found the focus on religion an odd one. I don't know of any group that has managed to wield influence or power over a quarter of the globe and come out looking remotely clean.
I’m kind of fascinated by the dichotomies in Christianity and how people respond to it.
There have been other good points in this post about Jesus’ teachings.
Jesus had a new covenant which is based on forgiveness and grace instead of adherence to law. And that’s a great message.
But if you think about it, it’s still authoritarian. You can only be saved through Christ. You can only know Christ through his church. You still have concepts of sin against a god.
Many of us love Christmas and the music and the message of love and forgiveness and having a savior. But listen to the religious Christmas music carefully. It’s about worship and being saved from sin. The concept of worship is so authoritarian I can hardly wrap my head around it even though I was born into religion.
To come back to the MAGA discussion: It’s a cult that worships a leader, and the followers were taught this behavior through religion.
That was how the positive aspects of my Roman Catholic education and theology were. Many evangelicals didn't consider me "saved" despite my being baptized and all. And I took great theology classes at a Jesuit university, one taught by a former Anglican monk in fact. I learned about the Big Bang and Evolution and everything. Questioning was encouraged as was your own discernment.
But certainly there's an "authority" involved even in the most positive of experiences because there's always a divine one. I'd agree though that the ideal is "hey you worship this god out of (actual) awe not because you were told you should" but I don't think that finding the whole thing authoritarian in nature is only an American experience. At a minimum, the pope exists. Much has changed from 2k years ago, and (presuming post resurrection time frame) I'd suspect very few people practice that way now or have the same social/political benefits in getting out from the existing religious hierarchy by following the followers of an apocalyptic Jewish preacher.
I think your experience isn't that different than many Catholic parishes in the US in my experience (and those of many of other, potentially "high church" denominations) But not all which I think is the thing.
It can vary quite a bit depending on who the priest/pastor is and there are some very conservative Catholics out there around the world who are more aligned with the theology of JD Vance than the Pope. I'm not including any of the Calvinist/evangelical churches in this discussion (though might I point out that if England hadn't been like GTFO they wouldn't be America's problem ಠ_ʖಠ).
You might vibe with a UU church though, I keep considering attending.
I can definitely understand not feeling the authoritarianism individually, I just also think that if you look at it, there's definitely Authority involved, regardless of whether it's kind or cruel.
Even just considering the NT - Love the Lord your God and Love thy Neighbor as thyself are still commandments. Even just in a service led by only specific people.
But I do think if you're engaging in a fairly atheistic or more vaguely deistic way - if Jesus isn't the Christ and also God for example - then yeah there's not a lot of bossing people around. But it's harder to file that under "Christianity" proper at that point IMO. I might have kept attending church in those circumstances though.
I think there's definitely a "high church" split here but I'd also probably flag Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations as being more structurally consistent and hierarchal by nature. So high church Protestant mostly? I'm not denying your experience and it aligns with a lot of my perceptions of, say, Anglican or (some) Methodist churches in general, though I've not been a member.
I don't think I have any Christian friends who'd toss me into a "going to hell" category, the family I have who I don't speak with would probably make a mental exception for me, but they've trended more (American) politically conservative, where in contrast my grandparents' generation might not have approved of some things but wouldn't have condemned my soul for them.
But then I live in a town of less than 3k and there are six listed churches here, all some variety of Christian that must be different from the others in some way meaningful to each other. Two run food pantries, but I don't know their theologies (I'm probably going to go look now), maybe one or two is closer to "have a scone and we'd love to see you next week" than "you'll burn in hell".
I do have a few Quaker and UU friends and I like both approaches to faith quite a bit. And I can acknowledge that I find a lot of peace in tradition and repetition. Catholic Mass is meditative for its structure and there's something sacred about coming together in a similar way as billions of others, past and present, in the way that telling stories is sacred or cooking food is sacred. Which is to say I can see a great amount of appeal there.
It's also worth noting that part of my reasoning for objecting to calling this an American thing is evidenced by talking about a subset of European churches and US ones, and not really engaging with the rest of the world. I suspect each of our experiences do reflect our broader cultures. And the churches in South America, Africa, Eastern Europe, Russia, etc are all going to bring their own levels of authoritarianism (or lack thereof). In the same way Americans often have a narrow view I think only focusing on (north?) western Europe is only broader by a few degrees population-wise, and there is still sectarian violence there despite that
(Deeply appreciate the convo!)
I mostly just wish I believed in something, though I'm humanist enough, I'm pretty sure I believe in people. I doubt I would sign up for even the gentlest Christian faith at this point.
But I do like the 7 UU principles as a starting point
1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
2nd Principle: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part
This reminds me of a joke:
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.
I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
Without belief that he was divine and such, historical Jesus just makes me sad and demonstrates how much harm we will do to each other. He thought the world would end, and it didn't. He was brutally tortured and killed for his theology. And his followers pretty much immediately dropped his top two commandments.
Ah yes, GNU Sir Pterry:
This is far from universal.
I'm an avowed atheist, but my Christian friends believe I will go to heaven. They think that God isn't heartless or an idiot and that he knows who we all are inside.
Evangelical Christians broadly feel otherwise, of course, and they're very common and very politically influential in the US. But they are just one flavor of Christianity; they are definitely not such a dominant force worldwide, and their beliefs about God and the afterlife should not be treated as inherent to the religion.
The Bible is so large and told through the eyes of so many prophets that you can support any political spectrum you want. And sadly, that's been abused for decades at this point. Trust in many churches in their interpretations and institutions as a whole weakened the trust among many liberal minds.
It can also be very generational. I was raised by my grandparents and they were highly religious. I only associate religion with restricting what I can't do, as opposed to what guidance to take in life. No water guns, no trick or treating, one of my two weekend days were spent going to a place where I had no friends and had to dress up for said lack of friends. I even had a short spell where I had to convince my grandma that pokemon was not in fact about summoning demons. So I don't have great memories despite probably knowing more of the Bible than the average church goer.
I'm not sure where I was really going here. I guess I'm just saying that I wouldn't be surprised if my experiences aren't unique. It's a shame because churches do feel like one of the last true third places. Outside of tithes you never need to pay to participate and churches in fact have food drives for those in need.
So much of this resonates with my childhood experiences. No Pokémon (for the same reason), no Harry Potter (long before the author’s problematic nature was known), no Halloween. Anything with references to magic or similar was on thin ice. Church was the place where I’d sit and be bored out of my skull for a few hours as the pastor held a “hellfire and brimstone” style sermon or ranted about how something of practically zero consequence was proof of how the world looked down on Christians and the seed from which their persecution during the end times would bloom (depending on the church). Best case scenario they’d talk about something more innocuous that they’d covered already 5 times before.
Some of the people were fine and even lovely outside of services but similarly, I don’t have a lot of fond memories associated with church.
I was raised in a very liberal and small Christian sect. It’s anarchist and pacifist. It does have the problem that it doesn’t brainwash children hard enough and nearly all of the people in my childhood cohort are atheist or non-practicing. I do hope the religion lives on though.
Hey, sounds like we’re in a similar boat!
Pray for us - the Christian University I work at is finally going to bend to student (and some loud external) pressure to add a TurningPointUSA chapter. Most of the faculty and a good chunk of the staff are less than thrilled.
This was an interesting watch. It's been a while since I've peered into the exmormon community, and I haven't seen a story like hers attached to MAGA politics. It's a fairly unique perspective that is different from other 'how I left the right' videos that I've seen, like this one that is presented by someone who was radicalized by the internet.
I grew up in a very Mormon community and I know about a dozen copies of this woman - even down to the essential oils MLM. I am not, and have never been, a Mormon, but my uncle and his family are very devout Mormons. Like many of the other Mormons I know, they are kind, intelligent, and successful people who are undoubtedly capable of empathy and critical thinking. Nevertheless, my uncle and his family all buy into the white christian nationalist thinking that this woman describes, which is mind blowing to me because our shared relative was a Muslim immigrant who was the walking, talking antithesis to one of MAGA's core arguments. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't want to be pedantic or nitpicky, because everything is in her video, but I do want to emphasize that this woman's deprogramming didn't come from a sudden epiphany brought on by critical thinking, as the title might suggest. Rather, it was a period of personal crisis that opened the door to her examining her values and beliefs through a critical lens. I think it's an important distinction to make when dealing with a person whose politics are directly tied to their faith.
This woman shows the powerful connection between faith, institutions, identity, and politics, and how they all feed off of each other. When I was in college, one of my professors told us that argument and persuasion had little to no effect on matters of religious faith. He used to say that the only way to make or break someone's true belief in a higher power was a significant emotional experience. That's what happened to this woman. She, like my uncle and his family, had a powerful feedback loop between identity, institutions, and politics, and the driving force at the center of it all was faith. It doesn't matter how many conversations I have with my uncle and his family, they won't budge because the thing that's holding this all together is the true belief in a higher power. A shitposting gamer edgelord might be able to think his way out of MAGA politics, but people like my uncle have to feel their way out of it first.
I guess if there is a hidden lesson to take from this video, it's that you're better off being a friendly lesbian than a wannabe Socrates lefty atheist douchebag.
A self-described former MAGA Mormon trad wife explains the stages of her gradual rejection of the ideologies she'd long held as her way of life.
@Mendanbar - this is a bit of a different premise so it may not apply to people you know, but maybe you might find this a useful example of how certain ideas are often intertwined.