31 votes

Democratic Debate #2 Thread (Night 1)

welcome to debate #2, night 1. after a margin-moving first set of debates, the bar has been set for candidates. some candidates tonight are probably in a fight for their campaign hopes, while others are mostly looking to not get obliterated and stay the course. here are all the details you'd ever need, and probably then some:

i recommend you sort by newest first (or order posted) instead of the default since this thread will likely be semi-active and covering a live event.

How to Watch:

The debate each night will start at 8 p.m. ET and last two hours.
TV broadcast: CNN
Free online stream: CNN.com, CNN apps
Additional coverage: CBS News, NBC News

CNN's stream is here, ABC stream which may or may not be meta commentary

The Candidates:

The second Democratic presidential debate: July 30-31, 2019

Night 1 (Tuesday, July 30): Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren, South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg, former Texas Rep. Beto O’Rourke, Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar, author Marianne Williamson, former Maryland Rep. John Delaney, former Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper, Ohio Rep. Tim Ryan, and Montana Gov. Steve Bullock.
Night 2 (Wednesday, July 31): Former Vice President Joe Biden, California Sen. Kamala Harris, New Jersey Sen. Cory Booker, former HUD Secretary Julián Castro, business leader Andrew Yang, Washington Gov. Jay Inslee, Hawaii Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio, and Colorado Sen. Michael Bennet.

The Rules:

A candidate "who consistently interrupts" on Tuesday and Wednesday nights will be penalized by having his or her time reduced.
Campaign representatives have also been told there will be no "lightning round"-type questions requiring a show of hands or one word responses.
The debate will be moderated by Dana Bash, Don Lemon and Jake Tapper. Each of the 10 candidates each night will be allowed to make brief opening and closing statements, the network said.

The Analysis:

NPR has 5 questions for this debate:

  1. Will there be any distinctions drawn between Sanders and Warren?
  2. Will some of the air be taken out of Sanders' sails because Biden isn't onstage?
  3. How is race raised?
  4. Who breaks out?
  5. Without hand-raising, will we get answers that are as clear?

other pre-debate analysis pieces that may be pertinent to you:

60 comments

  1. Icarus
    (edited )
    Link
    I think Sanders and Warren did an excellent job tonight defending their positions and fighting back. I will continue donating to both the campaigns because their vision is pretty much the same and...
    • Exemplary

    I think Sanders and Warren did an excellent job tonight defending their positions and fighting back. I will continue donating to both the campaigns because their vision is pretty much the same and both would make me proud to have as a President.

    Amy Klobuchar lost me when she talked about free college for everyone but the wealthy, just as Pete Buttigieg did for me at the last debate. You cannot say education is a right if you put a qualifier on that right. That is classism based on wealth. If Donald Trump's kids wanted to go to Virginia Tech like me, I say go for it. It is a government institution, funded by taxpayers. We do not close off roads, fire stations, police departments, or a high school, based on how much money you have in the bank. Period. When 2024 rolls around, I want a president who include colleges and doctors on that list.

    Tim Ryan lost me talking about unions and healthcare. The bargaining of healthcare in companies is additional leverage that a company has to use on the bargaining table. And to be charitable, that is because health care is also expensive to the companies as well! It is disingenuous to say that union workers love their insurance. I grew up on union health insurance, and on the one hand, I was more fortunate than many of the kids I grew up with because my parents could take me to the doctor whenever they needed to, but on the other hand, I had health care through an insurance company that would leave doctor's offices frustrated towards me because they had to spend sometimes hours negotiating with the insurance to pay the bill. Healthcare in this country is completely broken. My fiance slashed her leg open in three different parts in Italy 10 years ago, she paid nothing at the Italian hospital's ER as an American citizen. Last year, she had insurance and had to go to the ER for a scratched cornea with insurance. She paid nearly $2,000! It is so disingenuous to say because someone can bargain for health insurance, that is a good thing and we should keep it that way.

    Don't get me wrong, I like and respect most of the candidates running for President. I will vote for any of them over Donald Trump in the general election and volunteer for them. However, if the next President isn't courageous and willing to fight against special interest groups, they will pave the way for the next Trump-like President the next go around.

    We have been fighting for better health care for so long. If a Democratic candidate can't think as big or bigger than we did 60 years ago, I will be extremely disappointed.

    Just read this small debate transcript from 1960:

    I'm not satisfied to have fifty percent of our steel-mill capacity unused. I'm not satisfied when the United States had last year the lowest rate of economic growth of any major industrialized society in the world. Because economic growth means strength and vitality; it means we're able to sustain our defenses; it means we're able to meet our commitments abroad. I'm not satisfied when we have over nine billion dollars worth of food - some of it rotting - even though there is a hungry world, and even though four million Americans wait every month for a food package from the government, which averages five cents a day per individual. I saw cases in West Virginia, here in the United States, where children took home part of their school lunch in order to feed their families because I don't think we're meeting our obligations toward these Americans. I'm not satisfied when the Soviet Union is turning out twice as many scientists and engineers as we are. I'm not satisfied when many of our teachers are inadequately paid, or when our children go to school part-time shifts. I think we should have an educational system second to none. I'm not satisfied when I see men like Jimmy Hoffa - in charge of the largest union in the United States - still free. I'm not satisfied when we are failing to develop the natural resources of the United States to the fullest. Here in the United States, which developed the Tennessee Valley and which built the Grand Coulee and the other dams in the Northwest United States at the present rate of hydropower production - and that is the hallmark of an industrialized society - the Soviet Union by 1975 will be producing more power than we are.

    These are all the things, I think, in this country that can make our society strong, or can mean that it stands still. I'm not satisfied until every American enjoys his full constitutional rights. If a Negro baby is born - and this is true also of Puerto Ricans and Mexicans in some of our cities - he has about one-half as much chance to get through high school as a white baby. He has one-third as much chance to get through college as a white student. He has about a third as much chance to be a professional man, about half as much chance to own a house. He has about uh - four times as much chance that he'll be out of work in his life as the white baby. I think we can do better. I don't want the talents of any American to go to waste. I know that there are those who want to turn everything over to the government. I don't at all. I want the individuals to meet their responsibilities. And I want the states to meet their responsibilities. But I think there is also a national responsibility. The argument has been used against every piece of social legislation in the last twenty-five years. The people of the United States individually could not have developed the Tennessee Valley; collectively they could have.

    Carter in 1976

    We've got to have a firm way to handle the energy question. The reorganization proposal that I've put forward is one first step. In addition to that, we need to have a realization that we've got about 35 years worth of oil left in the whole world. We are going to run out of oil. When Mr. Nixon made his famous speech on operation independence, we were importing about 35 percent of our oil. Now we've increased that amount 25 percent. We now import about 44 percent of our oil.

    We need a shift from oil to coal. We need to concentrate our research and development effort on coal-burning and extraction that's safe for miners, that also is clean burning. We need to shift very strongly toward solar energy and have strict conservation measures and then, as a last resort only, continue to use atomic power.

    I would certainly not cut out atomic power altogether. We can't afford to give up that opportunity until later. But to the extent that we continue to use atomic power, I would be responsible as President to make sure that the safety precautions were initiated and maintained. For instance, some that have been forgotten: We need to have the reactor core below ground level, the entire powerplant that uses atomic power tightly sealed, and a heavy vacuum maintained. There ought to be a standardized design. There ought to be a full-time atomic energy specialist, independent of the power company, in the control room full-time, 24 hours a day, to shut down a plant if an abnormality develops. These kinds of procedures, along with evacuation procedures, adequate insurance, ought to be initiated.

    So, shift from oil to coal; emphasize research and development on coal use and also on solar power; strict conservation measures-not yield every time the special interest groups put pressure on the President, like this administration has done; and use atomic energy only as a last resort with the strictest possible safety precautions. That's the best overall energy policy in the brief time we have to discuss it.

    Dukakis 1986:

    Peter, I care deeply about people. All people. Working people, working families. People all over this country who in some cases are living from paycheck to paycheck. In other cases are having a hard time opening up the door of college opportunity to their children. In other cases don't have basic health insurance which, for most of us we accept as a matter of course, and assume we are going to have in order to pay the bills that we incur when we get sick. I'm somebody who believes deeply in genuine opportunity for every single citizen in this country and that's the kind of passion I brought to my state. I was a leader in the Civil Rights movement in my state and in my legislature. I cared very deeply about that war in Vietnam...I thought it was a mistake, I thought it was wrong, and I was one of the few legislators early in that war that took a stand against the war. I think it was the right stand at that time and I think history has proved us to be correct. But I have learned over time. I served one term...I was defeated as you know, and defeat sometimes is an important lesson. I think I am a much better governor today...I think I am a much better person...a much better listener. I think I'll be a much better president for having gone through that experience. But the things that we have done in my state to bring opportunity to people on public assistance -- over 50,000 families on welfare that we've helped to move from welfare to work and to become productive citizens -- the universal healthcare bill that we just talked about which will guarantee health care for all of our citizens. The opening up of opportunity to minorities in my state, affirmative action, minority contracting. The fact that we have a three percent unemployment rate and more jobs than people to fill them which gives us a tremendous opportunity to reach out to everybody and make them a part of this wonderful nation of ours with the opportunity that we create. These are things that I believe in very, very deeply. I may be a little calmer than some about it. I may be a greater consensus builder these days than I used to be, and I think that's a good thing, but I'm running for the presidency of the United States. I've been in public service for 25 years because I believe deeply in American goals and values and the people of this country, and that's the kind of president I want to be.

    Its just somewhere along the way, the Democratic party lost its vision on working class people. Look through the transcripts of the last 15 years of Democratic debates and find keywords like "climate change", "special interests", "unions", or "campaign finance reform". The Soviet Union is mentioned more after the year 2000 than unions themselves.

    18 votes
  2. [2]
    vord
    Link
    I'm writing off any candidate advocating for private health insurance as a corporate shill.

    I'm writing off any candidate advocating for private health insurance as a corporate shill.

    23 votes
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. Parliament
        Link Parent
        Working in the “healthcare business”. Oxymoronic.

        Working in the “healthcare business”. Oxymoronic.

        9 votes
  3. [5]
    alyaza
    Link
    "I WROTE THE DAMN BILL" is definitely going to be a line people remember, if this debate keeps up this absolutely painful way.

    "I WROTE THE DAMN BILL" is definitely going to be a line people remember, if this debate keeps up this absolutely painful way.

    21 votes
    1. NaraVara
      Link Parent
      I wasn’t able to watch the debate yet, but my twitter feed was posting that, Warren’s rubbing her hands together when they asked Delaney about how her tax bill would affect him (which is already a...

      I wasn’t able to watch the debate yet, but my twitter feed was posting that, Warren’s rubbing her hands together when they asked Delaney about how her tax bill would affect him (which is already a reaction gif now), and Warren saying “I have no idea why someone goes through all the trouble of running for President just to talk about all the things they don’t want to fight for.”

      10 votes
    2. [2]
      acdw
      Link Parent
      Apparently, it's already a t-shirt!

      Apparently, it's already a t-shirt!

      5 votes
      1. alyaza
        Link Parent
        god bless campaigns and their ability to quickly monopolize.

        god bless campaigns and their ability to quickly monopolize.

        7 votes
    3. stephen
      Link Parent
      I am so excited Bernie's pollsters told him to kick up his spiceiness level.

      I am so excited Bernie's pollsters told him to kick up his spiceiness level.

  4. [3]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [3]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [2]
        alyaza
        Link Parent
        yes, it did, and it was hilarious and made hick look silly.

        yes, it did, and it was hilarious and made hick look silly.

        8 votes
        1. stephen
          Link Parent
          Also making Hickenlooper look silly? The fact that he hasn't dropped out yet and is polling sub 2%

          Also making Hickenlooper look silly? The fact that he hasn't dropped out yet and is polling sub 2%

  5. [12]
    alyaza
    Link
    takeaways from the first half of this: oh god why john delaney, please shut up and go do something else since you've spent millions and 2 years to get 1% in the polls sanders and warren are...

    takeaways from the first half of this:

    • oh
    • god
    • why
    • john delaney, please shut up and go do something else since you've spent millions and 2 years to get 1% in the polls
    • sanders and warren are holding their own, to no surprises
    • williamson continues to swing wildly between reasonable and insane
    • this debate is bad, and i feel bad for watching it. please let tomorrow be better or for this debate to somehow get better in the latter hour.
    • why are like 19 pragmatic candidates running for president, and why can't they fucking distinguish themselves more? jesus.
    12 votes
    1. [2]
      gtwillwin
      Link Parent
      I'm so glad someone else hates Delaney as much as me

      I'm so glad someone else hates Delaney as much as me

      8 votes
      1. alyaza
        Link Parent
        just going off of the twitter punditry, it seems like in retrospect delaney is nearly everybody's big loser outside of the fact that he got to talk a bunch. lots of points about how he sounds like...

        just going off of the twitter punditry, it seems like in retrospect delaney is nearly everybody's big loser outside of the fact that he got to talk a bunch. lots of points about how he sounds like a republican which is... probably not the kind of splash you want to be making in a democratic primary that is one-half defined by standing firm against the trajectory of the republican party? it's still possible of course that what the punditry thinks isn't in line with what the people think, but at least doing the rounds it seemed to me like nearly everybody from the reddit randos to the twitter hot take artists to the CNN spin room people were pretty consistent on who won--and it certainly wasn't delaney.

        (cc: @spit-evil-olive-tips)

        1 vote
    2. [9]
      OxidadoGuillermez
      Link Parent
      Why does it anger you that someone wants to take a chance to see if they can make a run of it? Would you feel the same way if it was someone whose politics you agreed with that was at 1%? I don't...

      john delaney, please shut up and go do something else since you've spent millions and 2 years to get 1% in the polls

      Why does it anger you that someone wants to take a chance to see if they can make a run of it? Would you feel the same way if it was someone whose politics you agreed with that was at 1%? I don't remember many super progressives getting angry at Nader back in '00. They were all for his candidacy even if he was going to be a "spoiler".

      1. [8]
        alyaza
        Link Parent
        there are several people who i agree with who are at <1%, and if they spent as much time and money as delaney has to be useless i'd tell them to fuck off too at some point, yeah. delaney has done...

        Why does it anger you that someone wants to take a chance to see if they can make a run of it? Would you feel the same way if it was someone whose politics you agreed with that was at 1%? I don't remember many super progressives getting angry at Nader back in '00. They were all for his candidacy even if he was going to be a "spoiler".

        there are several people who i agree with who are at <1%, and if they spent as much time and money as delaney has to be useless i'd tell them to fuck off too at some point, yeah. delaney has done literally nothing despite having a year and a half head start on this entire field, and the only reason he was even on this stage is because he can self fund, not because he has a vision people want--and he probably won't make it to the next debate stage accordingly. you could have really replaced him with any of the people who didn't make the cut and they'd have been more useful to the conversations that have been had than delaney.

        4 votes
        1. [7]
          OxidadoGuillermez
          Link Parent
          Why do you care that Delaney has spent time and money, though? I don't get why it makes you angry.

          Why do you care that Delaney has spent time and money, though? I don't get why it makes you angry.

          1. [6]
            alyaza
            Link Parent
            i think warren put it pretty well: "I don't understand why anybody goes through all the trouble of running for President of the United States to talk about what we really can't do and shouldn't...

            Why do you care that Delaney has spent time and money, though?

            i think warren put it pretty well: "I don't understand why anybody goes through all the trouble of running for President of the United States to talk about what we really can't do and shouldn't fight for."

            a sack of flour with a smiley face on it could probably do more than delaney has so far in this campaign, and it's to the point where i'd say the dude has done less than even some of the people who literally didn't make the debates. his straits are so bad that he only just passed 30,000 twitter followers and is touting his increase in followers as proof that his campaign has momentum.

            4 votes
            1. [5]
              OxidadoGuillermez
              Link Parent
              You've just told me again that you are angry and care a lot about this. The question was, why do you care? Why does it matter to you that Delaney spent a lot of effort and isn't succeeding?

              You've just told me again that you are angry and care a lot about this.

              The question was, why do you care? Why does it matter to you that Delaney spent a lot of effort and isn't succeeding?

              1. [3]
                alyaza
                Link Parent
                again, i think warren put it pretty well. if you just want to preserve the status quo with a few tweaks, why are you running for president and taking up time and effort and energy that could go to...

                The question was, why do you care? Why does it matter to you that Delaney spent a lot of effort and isn't succeeding?

                again, i think warren put it pretty well. if you just want to preserve the status quo with a few tweaks, why are you running for president and taking up time and effort and energy that could go to people who actually want to systematically advance the current state of our nation and actually improve it ultimately? delaney used to be a sitting congressperson and explicitly passed up his seat to run for president, but, based on what he's campaigning on, literally everything he wants to accomplish could be better served in that end.

                4 votes
                1. [2]
                  OxidadoGuillermez
                  Link Parent
                  Because as it turns out lots of people believe that improving the country would be done best with tweaks and refinements and not massive overhauls??

                  Because as it turns out lots of people believe that improving the country would be done best with tweaks and refinements and not massive overhauls??

                  1. alyaza
                    Link Parent
                    and yet somehow, klobuchar, hickenlooper and ryan--all of whom run on a similar notion of tweaks and refinements instead of sweeping changes--actually put forward a message last night which is...

                    and yet somehow, klobuchar, hickenlooper and ryan--all of whom run on a similar notion of tweaks and refinements instead of sweeping changes--actually put forward a message last night which is more than just the "i love the status quo, we only need to change a few things, we can't do any of this" routine delaney put up. now, that said, i don't think any of their messages were really captivating and they at times blended together, but they at least made it clear that while they thought some things should stay as they are, other things desperately needed fixing like the opioid crisis or climate change or labor in the US and that we needed a president who would use the supreme power invested in the office of the presidency and the executive branch to fight for improvements like that. delaney couldn't do any of that, and of the like, three policies i remember him advocating, generously one of them might be part of a case for "i deserve to be president". the rest was him trying to shit on everybody else's ideas because they weren't "sufficiently pragmatic" or something, even though republicans are literally on the record as also calling him a socialist.

                    4 votes
              2. [2]
                Comment removed by site admin
                Link Parent
                1. OxidadoGuillermez
                  Link Parent
                  That is a completely valid take, and I'm surprised alayza (not sure how to tag on Tildes) didn't advance that as xer main point.

                  That is a completely valid take, and I'm surprised alayza (not sure how to tag on Tildes) didn't advance that as xer main point.

  6. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. Icarus
      Link Parent
      Seriously. My father is a retired member of the Boilermaker Union. He had to retire 10 years early at 55 because his body is giving out after 30 years of the hard physical labor. His biggest...

      Seriously.

      My father is a retired member of the Boilermaker Union. He had to retire 10 years early at 55 because his body is giving out after 30 years of the hard physical labor. His biggest challenge right now is getting healthcare which costs an obscene amount of money after retirement but before Medicare (unless he somehow got disability). So yeah, instead of bargaining for human rights in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, we can focus on bargaining for better working conditions so someone doesn't have to retire 10 years early because the work is too demanding.

      When has Tim Ryan ever picketed with union workers or fought on behalf of workers for better wages?

      8 votes
  7. gtwillwin
    Link
    Bernie has got some fight in him tonight and I love it

    Bernie has got some fight in him tonight and I love it

    9 votes
  8. alyaza
    Link
    delaney keeps swinging at warren and sanders, and literally every time he's come at them he's given one or both of them a big applause line to smack him over the head with. just stop, dude, your...

    delaney keeps swinging at warren and sanders, and literally every time he's come at them he's given one or both of them a big applause line to smack him over the head with. just stop, dude, your "exposure wins the day" strategy only works if you don't look fucking terrible every time you get into an exchange.

    9 votes
  9. Meh
    Link
    Best part was when Warren absolutely roasted Delaney when she questioned why people were running if they just keep talking about what they shouldn't or can't do.

    Best part was when Warren absolutely roasted Delaney when she questioned why people were running if they just keep talking about what they shouldn't or can't do.

    9 votes
  10. [2]
    Flashynuff
    Link
    I really feel like we could have had a way more productive debate if we weren't constantly checking in with Another Centrist White Dude on what they think. Imagine the conversations we could have...

    I really feel like we could have had a way more productive debate if we weren't constantly checking in with Another Centrist White Dude on what they think. Imagine the conversations we could have between the actual progressive candidates

    8 votes
    1. Flashynuff
      Link Parent
      Also, it's been a long time since I've watched cable news. I was kind of startled by how obviously sensationalized it is now; it felt like I was watching a reality show, not a debate among...

      Also, it's been a long time since I've watched cable news. I was kind of startled by how obviously sensationalized it is now; it felt like I was watching a reality show, not a debate among presidential candidates.

      5 votes
  11. [4]
    gpl
    Link
    I’m just happy CNN didn’t ask nearly as many (any?) “raise your hand” bullshit questions like MSNBC. That was one small improvement. Honestly I wish there was a rule or law or something where if...

    I’m just happy CNN didn’t ask nearly as many (any?) “raise your hand” bullshit questions like MSNBC. That was one small improvement.

    Honestly I wish there was a rule or law or something where if you are airing a debate you can’t run commercials. I recognize 100% this doesn’t make sense and would probably be illegal in some way but it would be nice to have networks not hunting after ratings and just giving some airtime to a process that is nominally important to our democracy.

    7 votes
    1. [2]
      timo
      Link Parent
      It's pretty surprising to me you feel this way. In my own country we have some debates on public channels without commercials. The commercial channels obviously have them during debates, but at...

      I recognize 100% this doesn’t make sense and would probably be illegal in some way but it would be nice to have networks not hunting after ratings and just giving some airtime to a process that is nominally important to our democracy.

      It's pretty surprising to me you feel this way. In my own country we have some debates on public channels without commercials. The commercial channels obviously have them during debates, but at least we have the option. It is not at all unreasonable to ask for a public, non commercial and non sensationalized debate. I'd love to see the same thing on commercial channels, because it's a public service.

      2 votes
      1. gpl
        Link Parent
        I suppose I should clarify: As long as private networks are broadcasting debates for what is nominally a private organization (the Democratic Party) I don’t think it’s probably legal to say they...

        I suppose I should clarify: As long as private networks are broadcasting debates for what is nominally a private organization (the Democratic Party) I don’t think it’s probably legal to say they can’t advertise during it. If it was on a public channel like PBS or CSPAN (?) I could see it.

        1 vote
    2. Amarok
      Link Parent
      They should have made that a law when the government granted access to the airwaves in the first place, and stuck it to nightly news as well. No advertising at all 30 minutes before, during, and...

      They should have made that a law when the government granted access to the airwaves in the first place, and stuck it to nightly news as well. No advertising at all 30 minutes before, during, and 30 minutes after news broadcasts or political debates. That would have dampened the infotainment aspect of news and helped keep it more objective, I think. It's a moot point now that television is dying anyway.

      NBC's debates were a shitshow. CNN at least managed to keep something of a handle on the flow of the conversations.

      1 vote
  12. [4]
    eladnarra
    Link
    I had trouble watching - men raising their voices gives me anxiety, apparently, something I didn't know until these debates. But I listened as much as I could while scrolling through Twitter. My...

    I had trouble watching - men raising their voices gives me anxiety, apparently, something I didn't know until these debates. But I listened as much as I could while scrolling through Twitter.

    My feed is populated by a lot of disabled activists, so the commentary I got was mostly in that vein. People are annoyed that yet again a debate completely ignored 20-25% of the population, especially in areas like healthcare. Warren mentioning Ady Barkan was something, but as far as I could tell no one actually talked about disabled people as a group.

    The other common theme is folks talking about how dangerous Williamson is. From what little I've read she's anti-vax, peddled harmful beliefs during the AIDS crisis, and seems to think you can fix depression with positive thinking. I confess I haven't read very far into things myself. But every time she talks about focusing on health care vs sickness care (or however she puts it), I just hear all the people who tell chronically ill people like me that we could be cured by yoga and a special diet.

    7 votes
    1. [4]
      Comment removed by site admin
      Link Parent
      1. sublime_aenima
        Link Parent
        The same things can be said about lots of politicians and lots of Americans. The problem is that she speaks to the uneducated, "love will heal all" people out there. She comes across as the...

        She is 100% an anti-science whackjob and absolutely contributed to masses of people dying from AIDS in the late 80s.

        She is a horrible person and no matter how memey or "straight-talking" her comments are, should not be given the level of credibility the media is providing her now. It is a disgrace.

        The same things can be said about lots of politicians and lots of Americans. The problem is that she speaks to the uneducated, "love will heal all" people out there. She comes across as the typical suburbanite who had very little interest in politics until the current debacle started taking airtime away from the latest celebrity fiasco. She speaks to the people that swear by Essential Oils and Goop. Just from personal experience, these people tend to not vote, or to vote however their SO tends to vote. I think she could be helpful if she turned her support for a realistic candidate and rallied her fan base to actually vote.

        2 votes
      2. [2]
        eladnarra
        Link Parent
        Thanks for the link and specific quotes! They really are scary - I hate that to people who don't know better, she sounded almost reasonable in some of her answers last night.

        Thanks for the link and specific quotes! They really are scary - I hate that to people who don't know better, she sounded almost reasonable in some of her answers last night.

        2 votes
        1. alyaza
          Link Parent
          i mean, it's not that she was almost reasonable--it's that she was on most of the questions she got (most likely because she doesn't have to worry about sticking to a script and being a politician...

          Thanks for the link and specific quotes! They really are scary - I hate that to people who don't know better, she sounded almost reasonable in some of her answers last night.

          i mean, it's not that she was almost reasonable--it's that she was on most of the questions she got (most likely because she doesn't have to worry about sticking to a script and being a politician since she's running as an outsider). like i've said a couple times in this thread, if she wasn't fucking trash on shit like this in a way that's unavoidable and not really able to be explained away, she'd be a reasonably good candidate specifically for that reason.

          1 vote
  13. [2]
    alyaza
    Link
    this started okay, but after warren it's gotten increasingly shambaholic and useless and it's arguably worse than MSNBC's first go-around already. fucking let them speak a bit, you don't have to...

    this started okay, but after warren it's gotten increasingly shambaholic and useless and it's arguably worse than MSNBC's first go-around already. fucking let them speak a bit, you don't have to literally stop them mid-sentence!

    6 votes
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. alyaza
        Link Parent
        it definitely improved after awhile, although i'm not sure if that's because they got a bit less stringent about enforcing the time when candidates were finishing their points, candidates...

        it definitely improved after awhile, although i'm not sure if that's because they got a bit less stringent about enforcing the time when candidates were finishing their points, candidates internalized stopping better, or a mixture of both.

        2 votes
  14. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. alyaza
        Link Parent
        i don't think so, because williamson's woo is mostly concentrated in spiritual healing over medication and medicine and vaccination. i don't know what's with her chemical policies bit, but i tend...

        i don't think so, because williamson's woo is mostly concentrated in spiritual healing over medication and medicine and vaccination. i don't know what's with her chemical policies bit, but i tend to lean toward her having a valid point about them (since she lumps them in with environmental and sociopolitical policies) that's just phrased in a kinda dumb way. that said, she hasn't really expanded on what it's supposed to mean, so that might be me giving her charity where she doesn't deserve it

        2 votes
  15. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. alyaza
      Link Parent
      yes. one of those being that he self-taught himself in norwegian, afaik.

      yes. one of those being that he self-taught himself in norwegian, afaik.

      3 votes
  16. [2]
    alyaza
    Link
    why are we doing this walkout thing again? did people not learn from that whole debacle from the republican debates in 2016 that this is an awful idea that becomes a trainwreck if someone messes...

    why are we doing this walkout thing again? did people not learn from that whole debacle from the republican debates in 2016 that this is an awful idea that becomes a trainwreck if someone messes up their cue? lol

    5 votes
    1. alyaza
      Link Parent
      for that matter, why are we doing all this pageantry? we could have just started the debate by now and knocked out an entire series of candidates answering questions.

      for that matter, why are we doing all this pageantry? we could have just started the debate by now and knocked out an entire series of candidates answering questions.

      7 votes
  17. [2]
    alyaza
    Link
    i appreciate that marianne williamson's opening statement sounded about quarter reasonable, quarter populist, and half "what the fuck are you doing?". she's definitely on base tonight, which...

    i appreciate that marianne williamson's opening statement sounded about quarter reasonable, quarter populist, and half "what the fuck are you doing?". she's definitely on base tonight, which suggests we're in for the authentic marianne experience of being reasonable at times but also clearly leaning way too much into woo.

    5 votes
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. alyaza
        Link Parent
        honest to god, if williamson wasn't so unavoidably terrible and kinda anti-science on certain things in her past and present, she'd probably be in the running for my vote specifically because she...

        honest to god, if williamson wasn't so unavoidably terrible and kinda anti-science on certain things in her past and present, she'd probably be in the running for my vote specifically because she seems to be able to, when you let her, speak truth to power in a way that even candidates who have lived the experiences she's talking about cannot. her CNN interview post-debate, even, was basically her going off on how sociopathic trickle-down economics are and why we need a new economic system which prioritizes people and the environment, something that even warren and sanders didn't really talk about and haven't really talked about so directly in the campaign so far.

        5 votes
  18. alyaza
    Link
    the problem with having this many "pragmatic" and "electable" candidates is that all of them sound the fucking same. you can't all be the pragmaticest and most electable.

    the problem with having this many "pragmatic" and "electable" candidates is that all of them sound the fucking same. you can't all be the pragmaticest and most electable.

    5 votes
  19. [4]
    Comment deleted by author
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    1. [3]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [2]
        Amarok
        Link Parent
        I'll say this for him - he's remarkably well spoken and even-tempered. I'd like to see him progress to the next round of debates. I haven't dug heavily into his policies yet, but he seems to be on...

        I'll say this for him - he's remarkably well spoken and even-tempered. I'd like to see him progress to the next round of debates. I haven't dug heavily into his policies yet, but he seems to be on the same page as yang with a lot of his answers (more choice/capitalist-centric) which is a plus for me.

        1 vote
        1. alyaza
          Link Parent
          buttigieg shouldn't have problems qualifying for any of the future debates unless he takes a nosedive in his polling or the DNC does something weird. he easily vaulted the requirements for donors...

          buttigieg shouldn't have problems qualifying for any of the future debates unless he takes a nosedive in his polling or the DNC does something weird. he easily vaulted the requirements for donors and outside of the front four, he's the only candidate consistently polling at more than 3% at this point from what i can tell.

          1 vote
    2. Parliament
      Link Parent
      I don’t get that at all.

      I don’t get that at all.

      3 votes
  20. [2]
    alyaza
    Link
    my power rankings: williamson = sanders = warren > everybody else > delaney williamson, sanders, warren, and delaney were the only people who stood out particularly across the entire debate;...

    my power rankings: williamson = sanders = warren > everybody else > delaney

    williamson, sanders, warren, and delaney were the only people who stood out particularly across the entire debate; williamson i think did the best relative to where she polls but of course she's uh... a loon, so i suspect that she won't move too much (and if she does, she'll revert). warren and sanders did enough and got plenty of good soundbytes; warren will probably keep rising, sanders might keep falling or slow. delaney is just an annoying asshole that most people don't like, and i don't think his strategy tonight of just getting screentime is going to work since he got dunked on badly several times. the rest did okay to mediocre. beto's probably the big loser because he needed a big win and that did not happen to me; buttigieg kinda underperformed, i think, relative to his potential.

    5 votes
    1. alyaza
      Link Parent
      i'm going to revise this slightly and say that warren, in sum, won the day--not necessarily because of her debate performance alone, but because of the fact that she stayed on CNN for almost an...

      i'm going to revise this slightly and say that warren, in sum, won the day--not necessarily because of her debate performance alone, but because of the fact that she stayed on CNN for almost an hour in the spin room making a pretty compelling case for her plans after literally just spending 2 hours and 30 minutes doing that against 8 other people in front of... i dunno, 15 to 20 million people like it was nothing? probably someone you want to have in a position to win the presidency.

      4 votes
  21. gtwillwin
    Link
    Bullock seems unfomfortable, his speech just seems unnatural

    Bullock seems unfomfortable, his speech just seems unnatural

    4 votes
  22. [2]
    mian
    Link
    Is there not a VOD of this up anywhere? It looks like ABC's link is just useless commentary and google also returns a bunch of videos of talking heads.

    Is there not a VOD of this up anywhere? It looks like ABC's link is just useless commentary and google also returns a bunch of videos of talking heads.

    4 votes
  23. [2]
    monarda
    Link
    Do you know how they decided who would be in night 1 and who would be in night 2? My quick search didn't yield an answer.

    Do you know how they decided who would be in night 1 and who would be in night 2? My quick search didn't yield an answer.

    3 votes
    1. alyaza
      Link Parent
      CNN spent a whole, televised hour basically drawing lots with cinematic cameras based on 3 tiers of candidates split between each night.

      CNN spent a whole, televised hour basically drawing lots with cinematic cameras based on 3 tiers of candidates split between each night.

      5 votes
  24. alyaza
    Link
    marianne williamson might be a bit of a whackjob woo-artist, but when she goes off she goes off spectacularly, and she just did exactly that with the question they gave her.

    marianne williamson might be a bit of a whackjob woo-artist, but when she goes off she goes off spectacularly, and she just did exactly that with the question they gave her.

    3 votes