I disagree with this one. Here's the thing. I consider myself an above average typist. I can hit 130-140 wpm on a keyboard I like. But I could not repeat to you the qwerty layout. I can't remember...
I disagree with this one.
Here's the thing. I consider myself an above average typist. I can hit 130-140 wpm on a keyboard I like. But I could not repeat to you the qwerty layout. I can't remember it at all, outside of, well, QWERTY. It's all muscle memory!
Muscle memory is all fine and good on keyboards you tap with your fingertips, but the keyboards he's talking about in that article are virtual keyboards you control by moving a selector with the DPAD on a remote! There's no muscle memory there. And I would wager most touch typist couldn't remember where the keys in a QWERTY layout without doing the motions. At least I can't.
So I think it's fine for the keyboard to be alphabetical on those. Everyone knows alphabetical order.
That’s interesting, I’ve had a completely opposite experience and am always fumbling around on a tv getting frustrated as my brain sends to be where a letter should be on qwerty so I assumed that...
That’s interesting, I’ve had a completely opposite experience and am always fumbling around on a tv getting frustrated as my brain sends to be where a letter should be on qwerty so I assumed that despite using a dpad instead of keyboard the memorization would translate directly over for everyone but maybe not.
I've exclusively used dvorak for nearly a decade (even on my phone, which many people don't change) and I still find it easier to use qwerty on a TV than alphabetical, presumably because of...
I've exclusively used dvorak for nearly a decade (even on my phone, which many people don't change) and I still find it easier to use qwerty on a TV than alphabetical, presumably because of residual memory as I typed qwerty until my late 20's.
I'm gonna disagree with your comment! Anecdotally, at least, I actually got really good at typing on a PSP that used QWERTY, because I had parents that never let me use smart phones. (Asian...
I'm gonna disagree with your comment! Anecdotally, at least, I actually got really good at typing on a PSP that used QWERTY, because I had parents that never let me use smart phones. (Asian household and whatnot). The biggest thing that it's standardized. Shift is always where you know it'll be, and caps lock as well. The number keys as well.
(the author addresses it but it's funny because iirc, QWERTY is designed to make people type slower on typewriters)
(Long after-the-fact reply…) It's not! This is a common misconception. Rather, it's designed to make people alternate sides of the keyboard while typing, because if you press adjacent keys in...
(Long after-the-fact reply…)
iirc, QWERTY is designed to make people type slower on typewriters
It's not! This is a common misconception. Rather, it's designed to make people alternate sides of the keyboard while typing, because if you press adjacent keys in rapid succession, the typebars are likely to interfere and jam. The qwerty layout was designed to make it possible to type faster on typewriters without jamming the mechanism!
Of course, in the absence of interfering mechanical linkages, that design constraint is now almost 100% anachronistic, and there are a variety of ways in which qwerty is suboptimal. Alternating hands is still a desirable keyboard layout trait, though, and so qwerty has little difficulty clearing the "good enough" bar, and network effects do the rest to keep it ubiquitous.
That design constraint actually makes QWERTY a very good layout for mobile phone keyboards, because what would be alternating hands on a full-size keyboard becomes alternating thumbs on a phone...
That design constraint actually makes QWERTY a very good layout for mobile phone keyboards, because what would be alternating hands on a full-size keyboard becomes alternating thumbs on a phone screen.
I imagine it probably makes it work well for swype input as well. You have to move back and forth across the keyboard instead of shuffling your thumb around a tiny spot where it’s harder to infer...
I imagine it probably makes it work well for swype input as well. You have to move back and forth across the keyboard instead of shuffling your thumb around a tiny spot where it’s harder to infer what you’re trying to do.
What’s interesting is that the password input fields when you log into these services do have a QWERTY layout. It’s only the search bar that’s like this.
What’s interesting is that the password input fields when you log into these services do have a QWERTY layout. It’s only the search bar that’s like this.
That did make me think and I'm tempted to lay out a blank keyboard layout (that I am familiar with, say my laptop) and see if I can fill it in from memory. It does seem like it might be hard but...
That did make me think and I'm tempted to lay out a blank keyboard layout (that I am familiar with, say my laptop) and see if I can fill it in from memory.
It does seem like it might be hard but of course touch typing is not, wonder if I rely on other feedback but of course it's impossible to tell while actually typing.
I'm definitely below your typing speed, I'm at around 100-110 or so, but I'm quite sure I have all alphas memorized surprisingly, the only thing I forget is the position of the n and m keys lol
I'm definitely below your typing speed, I'm at around 100-110 or so, but I'm quite sure I have all alphas memorized surprisingly, the only thing I forget is the position of the n and m keys lol
I strongly disagree with this one. Keyboard layouts are specific to their interaction type. I switched to Colemak, but I still use a qwerty layout on my phone. There's just no relationship between...
I strongly disagree with this one. Keyboard layouts are specific to their interaction type. I switched to Colemak, but I still use a qwerty layout on my phone. There's just no relationship between 8 fingers in contact with a physical keyboard and 1 (or 2) thumbs typing on a digital screen. The muscles are completely different, so you have nothing to gain by the consistency between both.
It is extremely annoying how every TV service uses a different layout. Ideally, everything would simply default to the system keyboard, but at least ABC is consistent. In fact, you can offer an ABC keyboard an know it will "work" for any english speaking audience. No Colemak, No Drovak, No ISO/ANSII. In fact, you avoid this whole long list of QWERTY-like, but not QWERTY layouts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_QWERTY_keyboard_language_variants
Anecdotally, this wasn't the case for me. I also switched to Colemak, but after a while I noticed that on mobile I would subconsciously tap in areas where I expected keys to be on Colemak instead...
There's just no relationship between 8 fingers in contact with a physical keyboard and 1 (or 2) thumbs typing on a digital screen.
Anecdotally, this wasn't the case for me. I also switched to Colemak, but after a while I noticed that on mobile I would subconsciously tap in areas where I expected keys to be on Colemak instead of QWERTY. I felt the need to switch over on mobile as well, even though it's not great for typing on mobile for all the reasons that make it good on a physical keyboard.
T9! I have not heard that name in a long time.. I used to be very good at T9 as well, but I don't know if I want to go back.. Especially for the examples given in the article (keyboards on a TV...
T9! I have not heard that name in a long time..
I used to be very good at T9 as well, but I don't know if I want to go back.. Especially for the examples given in the article (keyboards on a TV for in-app searching). I think the author might be right that QWERTY is better than alphabetical order for this use case.
My main annoyance with some of the keyboards shown in the article, is that they are not at all optimized for minimizing button presses. Though perhaps they are more optimized for finding the...
My main annoyance with some of the keyboards shown in the article, is that they are not at all optimized for minimizing button presses. Though perhaps they are more optimized for finding the correct key more easily? Customization would be nice. Or some kind of innovation for inputting text with a remote control. But then I also wonder how much time people really spend using those keyboards (and whether it would be worth learning a new way of inputting text).
I honestly don’t find a problem with any of these interfaces. It’s the ones where all the letters are bunched up into a single row that is the objectively worst way to input text. It’s literally...
I honestly don’t find a problem with any of these interfaces.
It’s the ones where all the letters are bunched up into a single row that is the objectively worst way to input text. It’s literally worse than manually creating a printing surface by putting metal letters together.
Samsung TVs do something like that and it's terrible. It's probably more of an implementation issue since it's kind of a nasty hybrid between QWERTY and a flick keyboard1, but still. English is...
Something like this is optimal for inputting text using a control that is limited to a selection and directional input buttons: https://i.imgur.com/fdOaJ0p.jpeg it would require some people to get used to "hold and release" for entry but is the fastest method of typing outside of touch typing and stenotype/chorded typing.
Samsung TVs do something like that and it's terrible. It's probably more of an implementation issue since it's kind of a nasty hybrid between QWERTY and a flick keyboard1, but still. English is not Japanese2 and flick keyboards only work in Japanese because of the weirdly limited set of phonemes that exist in the language, and which all fit into a very limited set of categories which you can comfortably expose from that kind of interface.
1 the flick part pops up over the QWERTY and provides you with what it thinks are the three most likely characters that could follow the one you just selected, which is annoying because it overrides the QWERTY layout underneath it. The whole thing is laggy as all get out, too. Samsung's smart TV OS is quite possibly the worst on the market.
2 And neither is Korean for that matter, I don't know what the hell Samsung was thinking with that.
I must say though, the few times where it correctly suggests what I'm trying to write it's really useful. But unfortunately those moments are few and far between.
Samsung TVs do something like that and it's terrible
I must say though, the few times where it correctly suggests what I'm trying to write it's really useful. But unfortunately those moments are few and far between.
It's handcoded, and unfortunately the linking wasn't working for me, either. There's markdown level support for superscripts on reddit that I use all the time. On tildes you have to use HTML for...
It's handcoded, and unfortunately the linking wasn't working for me, either. There's markdown level support for superscripts on reddit that I use all the time. On tildes you have to use HTML for it instead, and I knew full blown HTML had tags that allowed turning footnotes into in page links. I looked up a tutorial for linking within a page, and unfortunately while it's not outright rejected by Tildes' parser, it doesn't seem to actually work as an in page link, either. It's possible I did it wrong, but that edit symbol is there because I tweaked it until it seemed to be right, so I think it's the parser and not me. Let me know if you manage to get it working, though. I use footnotes every time a parenthetical starts getting too long, which is pretty often for me, so having in page linking working would be pretty useful.
Cursor operated keyboards have a lot of room for improvement from raw abc, but QWERTY is not one of them. The best thing I can think of in a pinch for a TV is abc with 4 suggestions of the next...
Cursor operated keyboards have a lot of room for improvement from raw abc, but QWERTY is not one of them. The best thing I can think of in a pinch for a TV is abc with 4 suggestions of the next letter popping up each tap, based on letter sequence statistics.
I'd like if they could let you choose between the keyboard layout. Though generally, I think the bigger issue with those keyboards isn't whether they use QWERTY or alphabetical order, but the...
I'd like if they could let you choose between the keyboard layout. Though generally, I think the bigger issue with those keyboards isn't whether they use QWERTY or alphabetical order, but the layouts.
Typing stuff on TV is incredibly tedious because you need to use the arrow key to select letters. Some of those keyboards have super compact grids, which minimizes button presses. But others have it on three lines, or even just two. It's a pain to scroll through when you have a word with letters spaced far apart, and restricting it to so few rows just adds to the agony. Made worse if the keyboard and your remote don't have a button you can use as a backspace or space, so if you want to have multiple words or you make a mistake you have to scroll even further.
Also, that last one in that blog post made me recoil because that's basically the dang QWERTY keyboard with the keys all messed up. And then the other one with that layout had the numbers to the side like a num-pad. Honestly not sure which one I loathe more.
I disagree with this one.
Here's the thing. I consider myself an above average typist. I can hit 130-140 wpm on a keyboard I like. But I could not repeat to you the qwerty layout. I can't remember it at all, outside of, well, QWERTY. It's all muscle memory!
Muscle memory is all fine and good on keyboards you tap with your fingertips, but the keyboards he's talking about in that article are virtual keyboards you control by moving a selector with the DPAD on a remote! There's no muscle memory there. And I would wager most touch typist couldn't remember where the keys in a QWERTY layout without doing the motions. At least I can't.
So I think it's fine for the keyboard to be alphabetical on those. Everyone knows alphabetical order.
That’s interesting, I’ve had a completely opposite experience and am always fumbling around on a tv getting frustrated as my brain sends to be where a letter should be on qwerty so I assumed that despite using a dpad instead of keyboard the memorization would translate directly over for everyone but maybe not.
I've exclusively used dvorak for nearly a decade (even on my phone, which many people don't change) and I still find it easier to use qwerty on a TV than alphabetical, presumably because of residual memory as I typed qwerty until my late 20's.
I'm gonna disagree with your comment! Anecdotally, at least, I actually got really good at typing on a PSP that used QWERTY, because I had parents that never let me use smart phones. (Asian household and whatnot). The biggest thing that it's standardized. Shift is always where you know it'll be, and caps lock as well. The number keys as well.
(the author addresses it but it's funny because iirc, QWERTY is designed to make people type slower on typewriters)
(Long after-the-fact reply…)
It's not! This is a common misconception. Rather, it's designed to make people alternate sides of the keyboard while typing, because if you press adjacent keys in rapid succession, the typebars are likely to interfere and jam. The qwerty layout was designed to make it possible to type faster on typewriters without jamming the mechanism!
Of course, in the absence of interfering mechanical linkages, that design constraint is now almost 100% anachronistic, and there are a variety of ways in which qwerty is suboptimal. Alternating hands is still a desirable keyboard layout trait, though, and so qwerty has little difficulty clearing the "good enough" bar, and network effects do the rest to keep it ubiquitous.
That design constraint actually makes QWERTY a very good layout for mobile phone keyboards, because what would be alternating hands on a full-size keyboard becomes alternating thumbs on a phone screen.
I imagine it probably makes it work well for swype input as well. You have to move back and forth across the keyboard instead of shuffling your thumb around a tiny spot where it’s harder to infer what you’re trying to do.
Alphabetical order also saves some work in localization, there’s countries like France that use alternate keyboard layouts like AZERTY
What’s interesting is that the password input fields when you log into these services do have a QWERTY layout. It’s only the search bar that’s like this.
That did make me think and I'm tempted to lay out a blank keyboard layout (that I am familiar with, say my laptop) and see if I can fill it in from memory.
It does seem like it might be hard but of course touch typing is not, wonder if I rely on other feedback but of course it's impossible to tell while actually typing.
I'm definitely below your typing speed, I'm at around 100-110 or so, but I'm quite sure I have all alphas memorized surprisingly, the only thing I forget is the position of the n and m keys lol
I strongly disagree with this one. Keyboard layouts are specific to their interaction type. I switched to Colemak, but I still use a qwerty layout on my phone. There's just no relationship between 8 fingers in contact with a physical keyboard and 1 (or 2) thumbs typing on a digital screen. The muscles are completely different, so you have nothing to gain by the consistency between both.
It is extremely annoying how every TV service uses a different layout. Ideally, everything would simply default to the system keyboard, but at least ABC is consistent. In fact, you can offer an ABC keyboard an know it will "work" for any english speaking audience. No Colemak, No Drovak, No ISO/ANSII. In fact, you avoid this whole long list of QWERTY-like, but not QWERTY layouts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_QWERTY_keyboard_language_variants
Anecdotally, this wasn't the case for me. I also switched to Colemak, but after a while I noticed that on mobile I would subconsciously tap in areas where I expected keys to be on Colemak instead of QWERTY. I felt the need to switch over on mobile as well, even though it's not great for typing on mobile for all the reasons that make it good on a physical keyboard.
Oh, wow. That’s super interesting to hear.
I had zero cross talk.
Gonna throw my own opinion out there: Bring back T9! It was the only layout where I could type super fast with only one hand without looking.
T9! I have not heard that name in a long time..
I used to be very good at T9 as well, but I don't know if I want to go back.. Especially for the examples given in the article (keyboards on a TV for in-app searching). I think the author might be right that QWERTY is better than alphabetical order for this use case.
My main annoyance with some of the keyboards shown in the article, is that they are not at all optimized for minimizing button presses. Though perhaps they are more optimized for finding the correct key more easily? Customization would be nice. Or some kind of innovation for inputting text with a remote control. But then I also wonder how much time people really spend using those keyboards (and whether it would be worth learning a new way of inputting text).
I honestly don’t find a problem with any of these interfaces.
It’s the ones where all the letters are bunched up into a single row that is the objectively worst way to input text. It’s literally worse than manually creating a printing surface by putting metal letters together.
Samsung TVs do something like that and it's terrible. It's probably more of an implementation issue since it's kind of a nasty hybrid between QWERTY and a flick keyboard1, but still. English is not Japanese2 and flick keyboards only work in Japanese because of the weirdly limited set of phonemes that exist in the language, and which all fit into a very limited set of categories which you can comfortably expose from that kind of interface.
1 the flick part pops up over the QWERTY and provides you with what it thinks are the three most likely characters that could follow the one you just selected, which is annoying because it overrides the QWERTY layout underneath it. The whole thing is laggy as all get out, too. Samsung's smart TV OS is quite possibly the worst on the market.
2 And neither is Korean for that matter, I don't know what the hell Samsung was thinking with that.
I must say though, the few times where it correctly suggests what I'm trying to write it's really useful. But unfortunately those moments are few and far between.
It's handcoded, and unfortunately the linking wasn't working for me, either. There's markdown level support for superscripts on reddit that I use all the time. On tildes you have to use HTML for it instead, and I knew full blown HTML had tags that allowed turning footnotes into in page links. I looked up a tutorial for linking within a page, and unfortunately while it's not outright rejected by Tildes' parser, it doesn't seem to actually work as an in page link, either. It's possible I did it wrong, but that edit symbol is there because I tweaked it until it seemed to be right, so I think it's the parser and not me. Let me know if you manage to get it working, though. I use footnotes every time a parenthetical starts getting too long, which is pretty often for me, so having in page linking working would be pretty useful.
Cursor operated keyboards have a lot of room for improvement from raw abc, but QWERTY is not one of them. The best thing I can think of in a pinch for a TV is abc with 4 suggestions of the next letter popping up each tap, based on letter sequence statistics.
I'd like if they could let you choose between the keyboard layout. Though generally, I think the bigger issue with those keyboards isn't whether they use QWERTY or alphabetical order, but the layouts.
Typing stuff on TV is incredibly tedious because you need to use the arrow key to select letters. Some of those keyboards have super compact grids, which minimizes button presses. But others have it on three lines, or even just two. It's a pain to scroll through when you have a word with letters spaced far apart, and restricting it to so few rows just adds to the agony. Made worse if the keyboard and your remote don't have a button you can use as a backspace or space, so if you want to have multiple words or you make a mistake you have to scroll even further.
Also, that last one in that blog post made me recoil because that's basically the dang QWERTY keyboard with the keys all messed up. And then the other one with that layout had the numbers to the side like a num-pad. Honestly not sure which one I loathe more.
I guess, those alphabetical «keyboard» have already existed before the TV or streaming servises. For examples I saw them on games based on RPGM.
If you are using an Apple TV just use the voice input, its much faster than typing and really accurate.
Until you try to have it pull up something in a language other than your system settings. Then it’s awful.