My first vehicle I ever bought for myself was a '94 Ford Ranger. Manual everything--seats, windows, transmission. Nothing ever broke on it. It just worked. I could do all basic maintenance and...
My first vehicle I ever bought for myself was a '94 Ford Ranger. Manual everything--seats, windows, transmission. Nothing ever broke on it. It just worked. I could do all basic maintenance and repairs on it. I never had to replace any window motors or gears, not seat motor. In nearly 200k miles I had to replace the clutch once. There was nothing they could use to squeeze a subscription out of me.
Ever since then, every time I've looked at a new vehicle I've mourned my loss as a consumer with every "upgrade" that makes me more and more reliant on the dealership.
I don't want my car connected to the internet.
I don't want software updates for my vehicle.
I don't want to pay a subscription for hardware already in my car like seat warmers.
I've seen too many phones bricked by updates, I certainly don't want to be on a trip and poof there goes some essential service because of a bad update..
I had the opposite experience with my 91 ranger, at less than 100,000km replaced the clutch and repaired the firewall (both failed at the same time), replaced the transmission, had to have the...
I had the opposite experience with my 91 ranger, at less than 100,000km replaced the clutch and repaired the firewall (both failed at the same time), replaced the transmission, had to have the engine taken apart to repair a faulty gasket, leaf springs failed. I wasn't even that rough on it, mostly to and from school and the odd road trip. I was a poor uni student, I still kept up on the regular maintenance but all these repairs were killing me and my mom traded her 99 grand am for it to get me through until I finished school.
My current vehicle is a 2013 Mazda CX-5 and it has been great, we've put 80,000km on top of the 60,000km when we bought it and it still works as we bought it on just regular maintenance. Boring ass gutless vehicle but it's been reliable.
Yeah, reminds me of the 'Smart' TV takeover. It is generally fine for the average user and a way to make more money for the producer so these types of things will be forced change by the market.
Yeah, reminds me of the 'Smart' TV takeover. It is generally fine for the average user and a way to make more money for the producer so these types of things will be forced change by the market.
Yeah, the "Smart" TV takeover was a racket as well. How many discussions have there been about really expensive TVs being upgraded to show ads on the start page? How many "Smart" TVs have become...
Yeah, the "Smart" TV takeover was a racket as well. How many discussions have there been about really expensive TVs being upgraded to show ads on the start page? How many "Smart" TVs have become dumb TVs in as little as 2 years because the apps aren't updated anymore, forcing people to buy a new TV or deal with an extra remote and purchase another Roku or Firestick?
Remember, all these companies are under pressure to realize gains year after year after year. That means they literally have to find new things to charge for.
It's funny you mention that. We got a Panasonic Smart TV back when the takeover began, and I think the YouTube app on it was depreciated within a year or two of getting it. I remember my parents...
It's funny you mention that. We got a Panasonic Smart TV back when the takeover began, and I think the YouTube app on it was depreciated within a year or two of getting it. I remember my parents were miffed when I mention that. On that note, the apps' UI on that TV were also pretty bad. I don't think it kept you logged in on YouTube, and I remember you could only "bookmark" four videos. Searching was a hassle since I don't think it retained search history, and typing took forever.
We also couldn't change the profile OR language on Netflix, which sucked when I wanted to watch an anime with my friends and it was Japanese with no subtitles. The option literally wasn't there. Pretty sure my dad's profile STILL has some stuff I added back then, too, because I couldn't switch to my profile, and it's been probably 10 years?
We still have that TV in our living room, but with an Amazon Firestick.
I'm still using a Panasonic plasma screen TV from the early 2000s, and I took an old Roku 3 to keep at my in-laws because I got so tired of dealing with their Samsung Smart TV. They are such junk....
I'm still using a Panasonic plasma screen TV from the early 2000s, and I took an old Roku 3 to keep at my in-laws because I got so tired of dealing with their Samsung Smart TV. They are such junk. I have no idea what I'm going to do when I eventually need to replace my TV or my old Honda because everything is overly computerized rather than focusing on basic needs and functionality.
I owned a third-hand '95 Ranger that was similar, except for an automatic transmission. Still to this day my favorite vehicle I ever owned. Everything on it was so easy to maintain and repair...
I owned a third-hand '95 Ranger that was similar, except for an automatic transmission. Still to this day my favorite vehicle I ever owned. Everything on it was so easy to maintain and repair (what few things did break) as well as a fully replaceable radio. Had I kept that truck, I'd have Android Auto / Car Play in it today, just cause I could.
My problem is that it seems like they're making it harder to do basic maintenence. I used to have this '95 Nissan 200SX. Changing the oil was simple. Just needed some ramps because the car was so...
My problem is that it seems like they're making it harder to do basic maintenence. I used to have this '95 Nissan 200SX. Changing the oil was simple. Just needed some ramps because the car was so low to the ground.
Now I have this manual 2012 Fod Focus, which runs great. But the oil pan bolt is wedged up behind a bunch of pipes. It's so bothersome that I just take it to a shop I trust now. I'm wondering what newer cars are like.
These drain-plug valves might help if you wanted to start changing your own oil again. I have one on my car and not only is it easier to change oil with the valve, it's also not nearly as messy as...
2012 Fod Focus, which runs great. But the oil pan bolt
These drain-plug valves might help if you wanted to start changing your own oil again. I have one on my car and not only is it easier to change oil with the valve, it's also not nearly as messy as a drain-bolt. https://www.fumotousa.com/cars-pickups-ford-2012-focus-2-0l-l4
Wow, that's interesting! I've never heard of that before. That's pretty cool. I may have to buy one and try it out. Does it ever leak or accidentally open up?
Wow, that's interesting! I've never heard of that before. That's pretty cool. I may have to buy one and try it out. Does it ever leak or accidentally open up?
It has never leaked on me or accidentally opened up. There’s a decently heavy spring on it, as well as it drops into a locking channel when the valve is closed. It would be very difficult for it...
It has never leaked on me or accidentally opened up. There’s a decently heavy spring on it, as well as it drops into a locking channel when the valve is closed. It would be very difficult for it to open on its own. I’ve been using one for 6 yrs and many many off road miles in my current SUV with no issues.
My Honda has some kind of aerodynamic metal shield that I have to remove a bunch of screws and bolts to get off. I still do it because dealer wants way too much money to change the oil
My Honda has some kind of aerodynamic metal shield that I have to remove a bunch of screws and bolts to get off. I still do it because dealer wants way too much money to change the oil
Looks like you may have just gotten lucky! Long term reliability index doesn't look great for that year: https://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Ford_Ranger.html
Having never owned a vehicle with internet capabilities, part of me wants it to stay that way. I'm perfectly capable of using a phone for GPS. I wonder what's so special about in-car systems these...
Having never owned a vehicle with internet capabilities, part of me wants it to stay that way. I'm perfectly capable of using a phone for GPS. I wonder what's so special about in-car systems these days that they need internet..?
I’m in a Tesla with the “premium” connection. For me it was the larger screen and UI. Everything’s right there, passengers can help change/input things, see live traffic etc. Netflix, YouTube,...
I’m in a Tesla with the “premium” connection. For me it was the larger screen and UI. Everything’s right there, passengers can help change/input things, see live traffic etc. Netflix, YouTube, Hulu are nice to haves.
Having owned it for a while I’m meh about it. I wouldn’t get rid of the connectivity package but the UI is not as good as it comes across initially and is often frustrating. The Spotify app fails to load almost 1/2 the time lately for example. And I’ve yet to figure out a way to program a custom alternative route. As with most things Tesla I’m hoping it’ll improve but I’m not holding my breath.
Thanks for sharing. Yeah, and at the price of these things I'm struggling to think of a reason why I wouldn't simply... mount an old phone or cellular tablet and use it. Probably a better...
Thanks for sharing. Yeah, and at the price of these things I'm struggling to think of a reason why I wouldn't simply... mount an old phone or cellular tablet and use it. Probably a better experience anyhow.
Yeah, it's a trend I noticed in many friends cars. It's cool for maybe a year to have your car have that built in screen and then later... they just use their phone. Phone that is constantly...
Yeah, it's a trend I noticed in many friends cars. It's cool for maybe a year to have your car have that built in screen and then later... they just use their phone. Phone that is constantly upgrading, has a much more powerful processor, and many more available apps. I thought that's what Andoid Auto/Apple Carplay was going to do.
The best "screen" in a car would simply be the equivalent of a desktop monitor, with a USB-C slot for your phone to project onto and even charge with. But I guess they can't nickle-and-dime that. Wonder how expensive a mod that would be to implement?
The funny thing is that what you're describing is basically exactly what Android Auto and Apple CarPlay are. Heck, I think that in my car the space where the icon for those 'apps' are is actually...
The best "screen" in a car would simply be the equivalent of a desktop monitor, with a USB-C slot for your phone to project onto and even charge with.
The funny thing is that what you're describing is basically exactly what Android Auto and Apple CarPlay are. Heck, I think that in my car the space where the icon for those 'apps' are is actually labeled "projector" when nothing is connected to it.
The thing that's especially stupid about this whole thing is that the entertainment system used to be a solved problem; the head unit used to be a standardized thing that you could upgrade yourself at any time. Now they're proprietary systems that are deeply integrated into the car and cannot be replaced with third party systems. If they went back to an open system this wouldn't be so much of a problem. But clearly the auto manufacturers just view that as money being left on the table.
Perhaps it would have behooved them to have simply found a way to integrate Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. I would imagine the portrait orientation of the main screen on Teslas is a major hurdle,...
Perhaps it would have behooved them to have simply found a way to integrate Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. I would imagine the portrait orientation of the main screen on Teslas is a major hurdle, though. I believe both systems are rather rigid in their expectations of screen orientation and aspect ratio.
Huh. I thought they all did it the way that the Model S did (or perhaps I should say "use to do"?). And the funny thing about that is that I have sat in all four models at some point in a Tesla...
Huh. I thought they all did it the way that the Model S did (or perhaps I should say "use to do"?). And the funny thing about that is that I have sat in all four models at some point in a Tesla mall store, see you'd think I would know better.
Thanks. That's embarrassing.
So with that in mind, I have even less of a potential explanation for why they eschew Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. Arrogance? A refusal to play nice with others?
Probably a little arrogance and a lot of trying to avoid getting burned by third parties. I believe they use to work with some other companies and it didn't go well and they basically cut off all...
Probably a little arrogance and a lot of trying to avoid getting burned by third parties. I believe they use to work with some other companies and it didn't go well and they basically cut off all cooperation since then. It helps them make sure nothing is going to crash their computers I suppose.
That's poor performance by design so that you upgrade to the premium connection package. And this is why I will never get a Tesla or any car with subscription features.
That's poor performance by design so that you upgrade to the premium connection package. And this is why I will never get a Tesla or any car with subscription features.
As a fellow Tesla owner ... I kicked the paid subscription to the curb after the month trial. Browser was neat. And useless. Navigation that included traffic was helpful, though only served to...
As a fellow Tesla owner ... I kicked the paid subscription to the curb after the month trial.
Browser was neat. And useless. Navigation that included traffic was helpful, though only served to tell me the hell that I was sitting in. To my knowledge routing and estimation still take into account traffic.
Other than those two features and a bunch of free radio stations, I couldn't even say what the subscription provides.
Love my electric car with the NACS port. Quite apprehensive about the telemetry, lifespan of updates, and big brother aspects of Tesla.
Wouldn't change the EV aspect of it for the world. Or the 3.1s 0-60.
Just adding some color and flavor to roughly the same things you've said about the subscription package perhaps.
There's nothing good about it. The peak setup, imo, is Android Auto / iOS Car Play on a 7-10" screen + bluetooth audio AND aux input. That is as much tech as I will ever want or need until we're...
There's nothing good about it. The peak setup, imo, is Android Auto / iOS Car Play on a 7-10" screen + bluetooth audio AND aux input. That is as much tech as I will ever want or need until we're capable of hosting self driving compute 100% in car with transparently audited / auditable code with accountability for failures.
My car has a 15" screen for navigation, your phone is what ... 7"? It's a lot easier (and safer) to look at the same info on a larger screen. My car display also doesn't show any message...
My car has a 15" screen for navigation, your phone is what ... 7"? It's a lot easier (and safer) to look at the same info on a larger screen. My car display also doesn't show any message notifications or other distractions for driving unless I want it to.
The in-car offline maps only update when you do the Very Official Software Update during service and usually stop updating in a few years completely. After that they slowly deteriorate to useless and downright dangerous.
Do you want a 10" iPad flying around your car in a crash? I don't. "But you can get a holder for it" - how much do you think one of those will cost? Something that won't come off and embed the...
Do you want a 10" iPad flying around your car in a crash? I don't.
"But you can get a holder for it" - how much do you think one of those will cost? Something that won't come off and embed the iPad in your chest in a collision?
I'm the same with my 17 Corolla. It has a touch screen for music and a backup camera, but tangible buttons for everything else. It feels like the late 10s models are gonna be the last generation...
I'm the same with my 17 Corolla. It has a touch screen for music and a backup camera, but tangible buttons for everything else.
It feels like the late 10s models are gonna be the last generation that will have full autonomy.
The funny thing is that you hear the same thing from car reviewers over and over again: everyone wants a volume knob, physical buttons for the HVAC system, and then leave everything else to Apple...
The funny thing is that you hear the same thing from car reviewers over and over again: everyone wants a volume knob, physical buttons for the HVAC system, and then leave everything else to Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. That's it. As long as the infotainment system is properly connected to the phone that every driver has, manufacturers don't need to keep reinventing the wheel for stuff like Spotify, navigation, etc. That should also obviate the need for OTA updates.
The fact that we are making new cars that have their own proprietary navigation software and laggy infotainment systems in 2023 is astounding.
Interestingly, Polestars use an infotainment "OS" created by Google. (Polestar is the EV/hybrid brand of Volvo, which is owned by Chinese company Geely.) By all rights, it works quite well. I don't know why more car manufacturers don't just defer to the experts in this field. (Not that this would be a huge win for privacy concerns, but at least it would minimize the number of companies hoarding that information as well as improve the user experience.)
I just don't understand how so many people can afford to buy cars these days, and I mean really "afford" it, not financed to the hilt. Of course, there will always be those that can afford...
I just don't understand how so many people can afford to buy cars these days, and I mean really "afford" it, not financed to the hilt. Of course, there will always be those that can afford $80-100,000 on a new car, but the mass market can't. Yet I see everyone in newish cars these days. Even used cars from the last 7 years are 30-40k here in Canada. My household is firmly in the middle-class in terms of income, yet we could never afford $400 bi-weekly payments to get a newish car on top of mortgage, bills, groceries, leisure spending, etc.
The answer is they can't and instead taking horrible loans. The length of auto loans keeps ticking up. Often when you go to finance a car they'll ask "What do you want your monthly payment to be?"...
The answer is they can't and instead taking horrible loans. The length of auto loans keeps ticking up. Often when you go to finance a car they'll ask "What do you want your monthly payment to be?" then give you bad loan options
When buying my car, they asked if I was thinking about a 60 or 72 month loan. My response was 36. I could have paid for it up front but I make more than the interest rate letting it sit in my HYSA.
When buying my car, they asked if I was thinking about a 60 or 72 month loan. My response was 36. I could have paid for it up front but I make more than the interest rate letting it sit in my HYSA.
The average age of a vehicle in Canada is about 10 years. Chances are, the people whose vehicles you're paying attention to are wealthier than average and therefore are more likely to purchase a...
The average age of a vehicle in Canada is about 10 years. Chances are, the people whose vehicles you're paying attention to are wealthier than average and therefore are more likely to purchase a new vehicle. They are probably highly leveraged anyway, because if they're wasting thousands of dollars on unnecessary car upgrades, they have probably designed their lives to be fundamentally expensive in other ways.
Transportation is most Americans'/Canadians' second-highest expense after housing (has been for decades) and that is pretty much exclusively because we choose to get around in vehicles that are inherently expensive. Automobiles are complex machines, and are getting more complex as we decide we can't live without air conditioning, automatic windows, heated seats, fancy built-in screens and other technology integrations, and so on. We are also choosing to buy vehicles that are larger (and therefore require more materials to build, and are also less fuel-efficient, which costs more money in the end).
Manufacturers are well aware of Western consumerist tendencies and are happy to oblige. They're not going to waste R&D money producing less profitable models without all these ridiculous, insecure gadgets and unnecessary bells and whistles. The market for that isn't significant right now. Few consumers care. They want the coolest, fanciest, most convenient car they can possibly afford, and longer auto loans are how they make it happen. Often, they're poorer in the end because of it!
Interesting, and thanks for the source. I do happen to live in quite a wealthy part of my city, so what I see is probably skewed (a fair amount of Teslas these days as well where I live). But even...
The average age of a vehicle in Canada is about 10 years.
Interesting, and thanks for the source. I do happen to live in quite a wealthy part of my city, so what I see is probably skewed (a fair amount of Teslas these days as well where I live). But even when I'm on the road, it still seems like there's an awful lot of new cars around.
isn't that how cars always worked? Like, if I find a random 100k car and see the finance plan being anywhere from 600-1000, depending on how fast you want to pay it off. it's certainly a big...
I mean really "afford" it, not financed to the hilt.
isn't that how cars always worked? Like, if I find a random 100k car and see the finance plan being anywhere from 600-1000, depending on how fast you want to pay it off. it's certainly a big expense, but a high CoL middle class citizen can bear that cost if they really wanted to .
I guess it depends on what you consider "mass market". there's still a large middle class to sell to, even if it prices out the growing lower class.
we could never afford $400 bi-weekly payments to get a newish car on top of mortgage, bills, groceries, leisure spending, etc.
I guess that's a part of it. There's plenty of middle class these days that either live alone or with a SO/Spouse. They don't have kids to worry about, and they may already have paid off any other significant debt like on school payments. That's a lot of room to afford car payments.
I don't have any numbers to back up my hunch, but I'm wondering how large this middle class is and will be in the coming years. It very much feels like it's a shrinking proportion of the...
there's still a large middle class to sell to
I don't have any numbers to back up my hunch, but I'm wondering how large this middle class is and will be in the coming years. It very much feels like it's a shrinking proportion of the population. But yes, I suppose there is an increasing number of dual-income no-kid households as well as those who have paid off their mortgage or sold up from a major city and banked a couple of million from their house. Still, I wonder how many will be in dire straits if the housing market were to crash and everyone's equity is slashed.
Fwiw, it's probably not a huge population per se, yes. Just enough to make business. That would be part of why so many fully electric vehicles have crazy wait-lists. There's some supply rampup...
Fwiw, it's probably not a huge population per se, yes. Just enough to make business. That would be part of why so many fully electric vehicles have crazy wait-lists. There's some supply rampup issues but it also seems like they aren't making tens of thousands of each model of car for people.
With housing shooting up I've seen the quote "cars are the new mortgage" a couple times. Can't afford a house and have no hope of ever buying one? Well, maybe you can afford a nice car. And by...
With housing shooting up I've seen the quote "cars are the new mortgage" a couple times. Can't afford a house and have no hope of ever buying one? Well, maybe you can afford a nice car. And by afford I mean afford the payments on long term financing.
My car is a 2013 model and I'm really not looking forward to replacing it.
Recently had to deal with transmission going out in our 20 year truck that has been super reliable up to that point. For a moment I initially wondered if the smarter decision was to just buy a new...
Recently had to deal with transmission going out in our 20 year truck that has been super reliable up to that point. For a moment I initially wondered if the smarter decision was to just buy a new vehicle versus dropping the money on a new transmission. Ended up purchasing a manufacturer made transmission with a warranty because it just seemed like the wiser idea. Seeing a similar article on the e-shitification of cars and having some rather iffy experiences with newer rental cars, there is no reason not to keep our current truck as long as we stay on regular maintenance.
While it does lack some of the newer safety features, it also does not have all the tracking and data harvesting concerns that newer cars have. We are fortunate to both work from home, so we don't drive often and it is typically at lower speeds. If some drunkard is going to plow into you in one of those popular massive trucks, not many cars are going to survive that to begin with outside of a Volvo.
It's not mentioned in the article, but I feel like interiors have gotten worse as well. Our truck interior is basically immaculate and has comfy cloth seats in comparison to the typical weird plasticy faux leather stuff that is hard. It is thoroughly a vehicle I enjoy and maintenance is reasonably price to validate the costs for now. I had a newer car for a moment (Manual 14 Mini Cooper) that I got rid of before going back to school. It was still technically ingrained enough at that time to cause issues. Not even a month into owning it, I had a warning pop on the dash "drive train malfunction" and was unable to shift beyond 2nd gear. It was under warranty and towed back to the dealer, only to learn a software update had locked it up! You can miss me on having a manual car lockup due to an update that needed to be done by the dealer.
My cars are not connected. They never will be. Im already in my 60's, dont plan on driving in my 80's and Im pretty sure I can keep an old school non connected, not privacy invading car running...
My cars are not connected. They never will be. Im already in my 60's, dont plan on driving in my 80's and Im pretty sure I can keep an old school non connected, not privacy invading car running for another 20 years. Screw the privacy grabbing companies, its already hard enough to try and keep my computer from sucking up every bit of info about my life I dont need that in my car too. It feels like a losing battle, but that doesnt mean Im not going to fight the fight right into the grave.
This goes far beyond cars. When is is normalized to have: hw that needs internet connection hw that can only run some proprietary system sw that locks out basic features(any mobile platform and...
This goes far beyond cars.
When is is normalized to have:
hw that needs internet connection
hw that can only run some proprietary system
sw that locks out basic features(any mobile platform and increasingly Windows and more) in the name of security(from you not for you except accidentally)
sw that makes it hard to impossible to control updates(see point above)
sw that makes it hard to impossible to control telemetry(see point above)
and more, with the common point being that you don't effectively own the expensive hw you bought
It is not really surprising that it goes into ever more areas. And alternatives in all the spaces are increasingly hard to find, more expensive and require more know-how. I would really like to buy <insert basically anything containing compute unit> that is modular, open, only as complex as necessary and does not have the computing capability unless it needs it. As far as I can tell it started with smartphones.
It is the price we are paying for the so called convenience insulating people from even minimal technical ability.
This is, of course, terrible, but I wonder if it's possible for consumers to get at on-device data if any of it is not encrypted at rest, and maybe even manipulate it.
This is, of course, terrible, but I wonder if it's possible for consumers to get at on-device data if any of it is not encrypted at rest, and maybe even manipulate it.
Yeah, I was sad to see my Accent go. I wish I could find and disable whatever antenna keeps my car phoning home but they'd sadly probably count that as voiding the warranty. All I know is that the...
Yeah, I was sad to see my Accent go. I wish I could find and disable whatever antenna keeps my car phoning home but they'd sadly probably count that as voiding the warranty. All I know is that the second they start trying to charge me for the connectivity crap, it's gone.
Thankfully I got the 23 model year because the 24 has HVAC on the display so they can rope it into their app as well.
That would make the car a no from me. I had that crap on a rental car once; I put the heated seat on at a stop light and then got on a busy highway. There was no possible way for me to safely...
the 24 has HVAC on the display
That would make the car a no from me. I had that crap on a rental car once; I put the heated seat on at a stop light and then got on a busy highway. There was no possible way for me to safely adjust that setting while moving.
Probably possible, but likely they won't agree to, considering it's profitable for them to keep it active. Perhaps someone will make tin foil hats for cars.
Probably possible, but likely they won't agree to, considering it's profitable for them to keep it active. Perhaps someone will make tin foil hats for cars.
Given that every manufacturer has released recall notices for their cellular modems when the old standards they were using have died off specifically to disable them, I would find it very hard to...
Given that every manufacturer has released recall notices for their cellular modems when the old standards they were using have died off specifically to disable them, I would find it very hard to believe that they are making it so they can't be disabled now.
It would depend on the car, I suppose, but on mine I saw they had an option to either completely disable it or to upgrade it. Disabling it was free but I would have to pay if I wanted them to upgrade.
It would depend on the car, I suppose, but on mine I saw they had an option to either completely disable it or to upgrade it. Disabling it was free but I would have to pay if I wanted them to upgrade.
I'm about to buy a new Subaru. What happens when I read and do not consent to the privacy policies in the infotainment system after I've already bought the car? I can simply return it, right?
I'm about to buy a new Subaru.
What happens when I read and do not consent to the privacy policies in the infotainment system after I've already bought the car? I can simply return it, right?
Perfect! I will have not received what I paid for, so I'll just take it back! When congress won't do their job, I feel like this is the only way to communicate displeasure to the manufacturers.
Perfect! I will have not received what I paid for, so I'll just take it back! When congress won't do their job, I feel like this is the only way to communicate displeasure to the manufacturers.
How is it a ~transport post, not a ~tech? There is cars that doesn't make it a transport post. It's more from the pov of invasive nature of rising tech and data collection and broking going on.
How is it a ~transport post, not a ~tech? There is cars that doesn't make it a transport post. It's more from the pov of invasive nature of rising tech and data collection and broking going on.
My first vehicle I ever bought for myself was a '94 Ford Ranger. Manual everything--seats, windows, transmission. Nothing ever broke on it. It just worked. I could do all basic maintenance and repairs on it. I never had to replace any window motors or gears, not seat motor. In nearly 200k miles I had to replace the clutch once. There was nothing they could use to squeeze a subscription out of me.
Ever since then, every time I've looked at a new vehicle I've mourned my loss as a consumer with every "upgrade" that makes me more and more reliant on the dealership.
I don't want my car connected to the internet.
I don't want software updates for my vehicle.
I don't want to pay a subscription for hardware already in my car like seat warmers.
I've seen too many phones bricked by updates, I certainly don't want to be on a trip and poof there goes some essential service because of a bad update..
I had the opposite experience with my 91 ranger, at less than 100,000km replaced the clutch and repaired the firewall (both failed at the same time), replaced the transmission, had to have the engine taken apart to repair a faulty gasket, leaf springs failed. I wasn't even that rough on it, mostly to and from school and the odd road trip. I was a poor uni student, I still kept up on the regular maintenance but all these repairs were killing me and my mom traded her 99 grand am for it to get me through until I finished school.
My current vehicle is a 2013 Mazda CX-5 and it has been great, we've put 80,000km on top of the 60,000km when we bought it and it still works as we bought it on just regular maintenance. Boring ass gutless vehicle but it's been reliable.
Yeah, reminds me of the 'Smart' TV takeover. It is generally fine for the average user and a way to make more money for the producer so these types of things will be forced change by the market.
Yeah, the "Smart" TV takeover was a racket as well. How many discussions have there been about really expensive TVs being upgraded to show ads on the start page? How many "Smart" TVs have become dumb TVs in as little as 2 years because the apps aren't updated anymore, forcing people to buy a new TV or deal with an extra remote and purchase another Roku or Firestick?
Remember, all these companies are under pressure to realize gains year after year after year. That means they literally have to find new things to charge for.
It's funny you mention that. We got a Panasonic Smart TV back when the takeover began, and I think the YouTube app on it was depreciated within a year or two of getting it. I remember my parents were miffed when I mention that. On that note, the apps' UI on that TV were also pretty bad. I don't think it kept you logged in on YouTube, and I remember you could only "bookmark" four videos. Searching was a hassle since I don't think it retained search history, and typing took forever.
We also couldn't change the profile OR language on Netflix, which sucked when I wanted to watch an anime with my friends and it was Japanese with no subtitles. The option literally wasn't there. Pretty sure my dad's profile STILL has some stuff I added back then, too, because I couldn't switch to my profile, and it's been probably 10 years?
We still have that TV in our living room, but with an Amazon Firestick.
I'm still using a Panasonic plasma screen TV from the early 2000s, and I took an old Roku 3 to keep at my in-laws because I got so tired of dealing with their Samsung Smart TV. They are such junk. I have no idea what I'm going to do when I eventually need to replace my TV or my old Honda because everything is overly computerized rather than focusing on basic needs and functionality.
I owned a third-hand '95 Ranger that was similar, except for an automatic transmission. Still to this day my favorite vehicle I ever owned. Everything on it was so easy to maintain and repair (what few things did break) as well as a fully replaceable radio. Had I kept that truck, I'd have Android Auto / Car Play in it today, just cause I could.
My problem is that it seems like they're making it harder to do basic maintenence. I used to have this '95 Nissan 200SX. Changing the oil was simple. Just needed some ramps because the car was so low to the ground.
Now I have this manual 2012 Fod Focus, which runs great. But the oil pan bolt is wedged up behind a bunch of pipes. It's so bothersome that I just take it to a shop I trust now. I'm wondering what newer cars are like.
These drain-plug valves might help if you wanted to start changing your own oil again. I have one on my car and not only is it easier to change oil with the valve, it's also not nearly as messy as a drain-bolt.
https://www.fumotousa.com/cars-pickups-ford-2012-focus-2-0l-l4
Wow, that's interesting! I've never heard of that before. That's pretty cool. I may have to buy one and try it out. Does it ever leak or accidentally open up?
I’ve been using those drain valves for a decade.. never a leak
It has never leaked on me or accidentally opened up. There’s a decently heavy spring on it, as well as it drops into a locking channel when the valve is closed. It would be very difficult for it to open on its own. I’ve been using one for 6 yrs and many many off road miles in my current SUV with no issues.
My Honda has some kind of aerodynamic metal shield that I have to remove a bunch of screws and bolts to get off. I still do it because dealer wants way too much money to change the oil
Looks like you may have just gotten lucky! Long term reliability index doesn't look great for that year: https://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Ford_Ranger.html
Having never owned a vehicle with internet capabilities, part of me wants it to stay that way. I'm perfectly capable of using a phone for GPS. I wonder what's so special about in-car systems these days that they need internet..?
So that you can pay subscriptions for extra features.
also why they're fighting right to repair tooth and nail. God forbid anyone fix a car without paying dealer markups.
I’m in a Tesla with the “premium” connection. For me it was the larger screen and UI. Everything’s right there, passengers can help change/input things, see live traffic etc. Netflix, YouTube, Hulu are nice to haves.
Having owned it for a while I’m meh about it. I wouldn’t get rid of the connectivity package but the UI is not as good as it comes across initially and is often frustrating. The Spotify app fails to load almost 1/2 the time lately for example. And I’ve yet to figure out a way to program a custom alternative route. As with most things Tesla I’m hoping it’ll improve but I’m not holding my breath.
Thanks for sharing. Yeah, and at the price of these things I'm struggling to think of a reason why I wouldn't simply... mount an old phone or cellular tablet and use it. Probably a better experience anyhow.
Yeah, it's a trend I noticed in many friends cars. It's cool for maybe a year to have your car have that built in screen and then later... they just use their phone. Phone that is constantly upgrading, has a much more powerful processor, and many more available apps. I thought that's what Andoid Auto/Apple Carplay was going to do.
The best "screen" in a car would simply be the equivalent of a desktop monitor, with a USB-C slot for your phone to project onto and even charge with. But I guess they can't nickle-and-dime that. Wonder how expensive a mod that would be to implement?
The funny thing is that what you're describing is basically exactly what Android Auto and Apple CarPlay are. Heck, I think that in my car the space where the icon for those 'apps' are is actually labeled "projector" when nothing is connected to it.
The thing that's especially stupid about this whole thing is that the entertainment system used to be a solved problem; the head unit used to be a standardized thing that you could upgrade yourself at any time. Now they're proprietary systems that are deeply integrated into the car and cannot be replaced with third party systems. If they went back to an open system this wouldn't be so much of a problem. But clearly the auto manufacturers just view that as money being left on the table.
Yep, I have a 2019 Civic and find it the sweet spot. Reasonable size screen with wired Carplay/Android Auto. Still a fair number of physical controls.
Perhaps it would have behooved them to have simply found a way to integrate Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. I would imagine the portrait orientation of the main screen on Teslas is a major hurdle, though. I believe both systems are rather rigid in their expectations of screen orientation and aspect ratio.
The vast majority of Teslas have landscape screens (that's where I'm typing this while stuck sitting in my car).
Huh. I thought they all did it the way that the Model S did (or perhaps I should say "use to do"?). And the funny thing about that is that I have sat in all four models at some point in a Tesla mall store, see you'd think I would know better.
Thanks. That's embarrassing.
So with that in mind, I have even less of a potential explanation for why they eschew Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. Arrogance? A refusal to play nice with others?
Probably a little arrogance and a lot of trying to avoid getting burned by third parties. I believe they use to work with some other companies and it didn't go well and they basically cut off all cooperation since then. It helps them make sure nothing is going to crash their computers I suppose.
That's poor performance by design so that you upgrade to the premium connection package. And this is why I will never get a Tesla or any car with subscription features.
As a fellow Tesla owner ... I kicked the paid subscription to the curb after the month trial.
Browser was neat. And useless. Navigation that included traffic was helpful, though only served to tell me the hell that I was sitting in. To my knowledge routing and estimation still take into account traffic.
Other than those two features and a bunch of free radio stations, I couldn't even say what the subscription provides.
Love my electric car with the NACS port. Quite apprehensive about the telemetry, lifespan of updates, and big brother aspects of Tesla.
Wouldn't change the EV aspect of it for the world. Or the 3.1s 0-60.
Just adding some color and flavor to roughly the same things you've said about the subscription package perhaps.
There's nothing good about it. The peak setup, imo, is Android Auto / iOS Car Play on a 7-10" screen + bluetooth audio AND aux input. That is as much tech as I will ever want or need until we're capable of hosting self driving compute 100% in car with transparently audited / auditable code with accountability for failures.
My car has a 15" screen for navigation, your phone is what ... 7"? It's a lot easier (and safer) to look at the same info on a larger screen. My car display also doesn't show any message notifications or other distractions for driving unless I want it to.
The in-car offline maps only update when you do the Very Official Software Update during service and usually stop updating in a few years completely. After that they slowly deteriorate to useless and downright dangerous.
Right, but for $300 or so you can get a 10-inch iPad, turn off notifications and dedicate it to the same task.
Do you want a 10" iPad flying around your car in a crash? I don't.
"But you can get a holder for it" - how much do you think one of those will cost? Something that won't come off and embed the iPad in your chest in a collision?
Shit like this is why you'll have to pry my 2012 Avalon from my cold dead hands. Modern cars are a raging dumpster fire in so many ways....
I'm in a '14 Chevy Sonic right now. I will keep it maintained and drive it until it rusts away, and even then I may try to repair that a few times.
I'm the same with my 17 Corolla. It has a touch screen for music and a backup camera, but tangible buttons for everything else.
It feels like the late 10s models are gonna be the last generation that will have full autonomy.
The funny thing is that you hear the same thing from car reviewers over and over again: everyone wants a volume knob, physical buttons for the HVAC system, and then leave everything else to Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. That's it. As long as the infotainment system is properly connected to the phone that every driver has, manufacturers don't need to keep reinventing the wheel for stuff like Spotify, navigation, etc. That should also obviate the need for OTA updates.
The fact that we are making new cars that have their own proprietary navigation software and laggy infotainment systems in 2023 is astounding.
Interestingly, Polestars use an infotainment "OS" created by Google. (Polestar is the EV/hybrid brand of Volvo, which is owned by Chinese company Geely.) By all rights, it works quite well. I don't know why more car manufacturers don't just defer to the experts in this field. (Not that this would be a huge win for privacy concerns, but at least it would minimize the number of companies hoarding that information as well as improve the user experience.)
I just don't understand how so many people can afford to buy cars these days, and I mean really "afford" it, not financed to the hilt. Of course, there will always be those that can afford $80-100,000 on a new car, but the mass market can't. Yet I see everyone in newish cars these days. Even used cars from the last 7 years are 30-40k here in Canada. My household is firmly in the middle-class in terms of income, yet we could never afford $400 bi-weekly payments to get a newish car on top of mortgage, bills, groceries, leisure spending, etc.
The answer is they can't and instead taking horrible loans. The length of auto loans keeps ticking up. Often when you go to finance a car they'll ask "What do you want your monthly payment to be?" then give you bad loan options
When buying my car, they asked if I was thinking about a 60 or 72 month loan. My response was 36. I could have paid for it up front but I make more than the interest rate letting it sit in my HYSA.
The average age of a vehicle in Canada is about 10 years. Chances are, the people whose vehicles you're paying attention to are wealthier than average and therefore are more likely to purchase a new vehicle. They are probably highly leveraged anyway, because if they're wasting thousands of dollars on unnecessary car upgrades, they have probably designed their lives to be fundamentally expensive in other ways.
Transportation is most Americans'/Canadians' second-highest expense after housing (has been for decades) and that is pretty much exclusively because we choose to get around in vehicles that are inherently expensive. Automobiles are complex machines, and are getting more complex as we decide we can't live without air conditioning, automatic windows, heated seats, fancy built-in screens and other technology integrations, and so on. We are also choosing to buy vehicles that are larger (and therefore require more materials to build, and are also less fuel-efficient, which costs more money in the end).
Manufacturers are well aware of Western consumerist tendencies and are happy to oblige. They're not going to waste R&D money producing less profitable models without all these ridiculous, insecure gadgets and unnecessary bells and whistles. The market for that isn't significant right now. Few consumers care. They want the coolest, fanciest, most convenient car they can possibly afford, and longer auto loans are how they make it happen. Often, they're poorer in the end because of it!
Interesting, and thanks for the source. I do happen to live in quite a wealthy part of my city, so what I see is probably skewed (a fair amount of Teslas these days as well where I live). But even when I'm on the road, it still seems like there's an awful lot of new cars around.
isn't that how cars always worked? Like, if I find a random 100k car and see the finance plan being anywhere from 600-1000, depending on how fast you want to pay it off. it's certainly a big expense, but a high CoL middle class citizen can bear that cost if they really wanted to .
I guess it depends on what you consider "mass market". there's still a large middle class to sell to, even if it prices out the growing lower class.
I guess that's a part of it. There's plenty of middle class these days that either live alone or with a SO/Spouse. They don't have kids to worry about, and they may already have paid off any other significant debt like on school payments. That's a lot of room to afford car payments.
I don't have any numbers to back up my hunch, but I'm wondering how large this middle class is and will be in the coming years. It very much feels like it's a shrinking proportion of the population. But yes, I suppose there is an increasing number of dual-income no-kid households as well as those who have paid off their mortgage or sold up from a major city and banked a couple of million from their house. Still, I wonder how many will be in dire straits if the housing market were to crash and everyone's equity is slashed.
Fwiw, it's probably not a huge population per se, yes. Just enough to make business. That would be part of why so many fully electric vehicles have crazy wait-lists. There's some supply rampup issues but it also seems like they aren't making tens of thousands of each model of car for people.
With housing shooting up I've seen the quote "cars are the new mortgage" a couple times. Can't afford a house and have no hope of ever buying one? Well, maybe you can afford a nice car. And by afford I mean afford the payments on long term financing.
My car is a 2013 model and I'm really not looking forward to replacing it.
Recently had to deal with transmission going out in our 20 year truck that has been super reliable up to that point. For a moment I initially wondered if the smarter decision was to just buy a new vehicle versus dropping the money on a new transmission. Ended up purchasing a manufacturer made transmission with a warranty because it just seemed like the wiser idea. Seeing a similar article on the e-shitification of cars and having some rather iffy experiences with newer rental cars, there is no reason not to keep our current truck as long as we stay on regular maintenance.
While it does lack some of the newer safety features, it also does not have all the tracking and data harvesting concerns that newer cars have. We are fortunate to both work from home, so we don't drive often and it is typically at lower speeds. If some drunkard is going to plow into you in one of those popular massive trucks, not many cars are going to survive that to begin with outside of a Volvo.
It's not mentioned in the article, but I feel like interiors have gotten worse as well. Our truck interior is basically immaculate and has comfy cloth seats in comparison to the typical weird plasticy faux leather stuff that is hard. It is thoroughly a vehicle I enjoy and maintenance is reasonably price to validate the costs for now. I had a newer car for a moment (Manual 14 Mini Cooper) that I got rid of before going back to school. It was still technically ingrained enough at that time to cause issues. Not even a month into owning it, I had a warning pop on the dash "drive train malfunction" and was unable to shift beyond 2nd gear. It was under warranty and towed back to the dealer, only to learn a software update had locked it up! You can miss me on having a manual car lockup due to an update that needed to be done by the dealer.
My cars are not connected. They never will be. Im already in my 60's, dont plan on driving in my 80's and Im pretty sure I can keep an old school non connected, not privacy invading car running for another 20 years. Screw the privacy grabbing companies, its already hard enough to try and keep my computer from sucking up every bit of info about my life I dont need that in my car too. It feels like a losing battle, but that doesnt mean Im not going to fight the fight right into the grave.
This goes far beyond cars.
When is is normalized to have:
It is not really surprising that it goes into ever more areas. And alternatives in all the spaces are increasingly hard to find, more expensive and require more know-how. I would really like to buy <insert basically anything containing compute unit> that is modular, open, only as complex as necessary and does not have the computing capability unless it needs it. As far as I can tell it started with smartphones.
It is the price we are paying for the so called convenience insulating people from even minimal technical ability.
This is, of course, terrible, but I wonder if it's possible for consumers to get at on-device data if any of it is not encrypted at rest, and maybe even manipulate it.
Yeah, I was sad to see my Accent go. I wish I could find and disable whatever antenna keeps my car phoning home but they'd sadly probably count that as voiding the warranty. All I know is that the second they start trying to charge me for the connectivity crap, it's gone.
Thankfully I got the 23 model year because the 24 has HVAC on the display so they can rope it into their app as well.
That would make the car a no from me. I had that crap on a rental car once; I put the heated seat on at a stop light and then got on a busy highway. There was no possible way for me to safely adjust that setting while moving.
Is it not possible to have the dealer disconnect the modem at purchase? I definitely plan to ask that before I get my next car.
Probably possible, but likely they won't agree to, considering it's profitable for them to keep it active. Perhaps someone will make tin foil hats for cars.
Given that every manufacturer has released recall notices for their cellular modems when the old standards they were using have died off specifically to disable them, I would find it very hard to believe that they are making it so they can't be disabled now.
It would depend on the car, I suppose, but on mine I saw they had an option to either completely disable it or to upgrade it. Disabling it was free but I would have to pay if I wanted them to upgrade.
I'm about to buy a new Subaru.
What happens when I read and do not consent to the privacy policies in the infotainment system after I've already bought the car? I can simply return it, right?
AFAIK it will simply keep showing that message and not allow you to access any of it's features, but things are ever changing with these things.
Perfect! I will have not received what I paid for, so I'll just take it back! When congress won't do their job, I feel like this is the only way to communicate displeasure to the manufacturers.
How is it a ~transport post, not a ~tech? There is cars that doesn't make it a transport post. It's more from the pov of invasive nature of rising tech and data collection and broking going on.