53 votes

OpenAI staff threaten to quit unless board resigns

24 comments

  1. [8]
    DefiantEmbassy
    Link
    (Sorry for the volume of posts around this, but things keep changing so goddamn rapidly. This might be the biggest company meltdown in recent history.) That is over half the company:...

    (Sorry for the volume of posts around this, but things keep changing so goddamn rapidly. This might be the biggest company meltdown in recent history.)

    That is over half the company: https://www.threads.net/@karaswisher/post/Cz3sAWPOMOZ/

    22 votes
    1. [3]
      lou
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      If you feel that is needed, you could either create a megathread or simply post new top level comments with updates to this post. Not that I think you need to do that, but that's how I usually...

      If you feel that is needed, you could either create a megathread or simply post new top level comments with updates to this post. Not that I think you need to do that, but that's how I usually deal with developing stories.

      5 votes
      1. cfabbro
        Link Parent
        People who aren't interested in this story can also add sam altman or openai to their topic tag filters too, so they don't have to see any of the related topics.

        People who aren't interested in this story can also add sam altman or openai to their topic tag filters too, so they don't have to see any of the related topics.

        6 votes
      2. DefiantEmbassy
        Link Parent
        Good idea. I'll let someone else figure out when that point comes (but I will, sheepishly, stop posting articles as top-level posts :D)

        Good idea. I'll let someone else figure out when that point comes (but I will, sheepishly, stop posting articles as top-level posts :D)

    2. Fiachra
      Link Parent
      Oof! That wording is really taking it nuclear.

      Oof! That wording is really taking it nuclear.

      2 votes
    3. [3]
      drannex
      Link Parent
      This is wonderful to watch from afar. Side note, seeing more and more non-xitter links to things like this is most excellent. It's probably leaning 70/30 in favor of alternates lately. Sure,...

      This is wonderful to watch from afar.

      Side note, seeing more and more non-xitter links to things like this is most excellent. It's probably leaning 70/30 in favor of alternates lately. Sure, Threads is Meta, but at least its not a nazi bar.

      20 votes
      1. Trobador
        Link Parent
        Yet :/

        Sure, Threads is Meta, but at least its not a nazi bar.

        Yet :/

        7 votes
      2. venn177
        Link Parent
        God, when you put it like that it's pretty fucking sad where we're at.

        God, when you put it like that it's pretty fucking sad where we're at.

        7 votes
  2. [2]
    mezze
    Link
    This looks like it'll shake out with Microsoft hiring 500 OpenAI employees, and thus, effectively acquiring a company valued at ~$90B for the cost of their salaries -- a savings of tens of...

    This looks like it'll shake out with Microsoft hiring 500 OpenAI employees, and thus, effectively acquiring a company valued at ~$90B for the cost of their salaries -- a savings of tens of billions of dollars. Sure, they'll lay some of them off next quarter and keep only the best, but right now Satya looks like a genius. Of course, he can't get all the credit, but still, what a grab.

    19 votes
    1. vord
      Link Parent
      You mean eliminating any and all ethics obligations and profits caps? That's way more valuable than a few billion.

      You mean eliminating any and all ethics obligations and profits caps? That's way more valuable than a few billion.

      16 votes
  3. [9]
    arch
    Link
    The firing of Sam Altman has to go down in history as one of the worst moves ever made by a corporate board. They lose over $500 million dollars a year, and they have now handed their key leader...

    The firing of Sam Altman has to go down in history as one of the worst moves ever made by a corporate board. They lose over $500 million dollars a year, and they have now handed their key leader over to their top investor to start a competitor to them. I'll honestly be shocked if OpenAI doesn't lose their funding, get buried in lawsuits over the legality of their training data, and go under.

    They fired him with no non-compete clause, and didn't offer him any role with the company going forward. It's absurd.

    18 votes
    1. [7]
      stu2b50
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      They’re not just a corporate board, though. Although reporting is sparse, the board is the board of the nonprofit OpenAI, and it is speculated they were not happy about the not very open, and...

      They’re not just a corporate board, though. Although reporting is sparse, the board is the board of the nonprofit OpenAI, and it is speculated they were not happy about the not very open, and fairly corporate way Sam was expanding after ChatGPT blew up. Their structure is similar to Mozilla’s.

      It would make sense if this was the hail mary of a board concerned about openness, ethics, and all that stuff which OpenAI originally started with against what they saw as a de facto coup by Sam Altman into making OpenAI into a for-profit tech startup. Of course, it utterly failed, as Altman ended up being way more important than they were.

      Oh well, I think the tech is better in the hands of Microsoft than the supposed ethicist on the board.

      17 votes
      1. raze2012
        Link Parent
        Given MS's history, ,I'm not sure if that's a huge step up. They simply have more eyes on them due to historical antitrust cases. But it's not like Google and Meta dont have their own solutions in...

        Oh well, I think the tech is better in the hands of Microsoft than the supposed ethicist on the board.

        Given MS's history, ,I'm not sure if that's a huge step up. They simply have more eyes on them due to historical antitrust cases.

        But it's not like Google and Meta dont have their own solutions in tow. So I guess soon it'll be more a matter of picking your poison.

        12 votes
      2. [5]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        It’s very messy, but I don’t see it as a failure yet, because it depends on their goals. The cost is much higher than they likely anticipated. OpenAI will likely end up a smaller organization with...

        It’s very messy, but I don’t see it as a failure yet, because it depends on their goals. The cost is much higher than they likely anticipated. OpenAI will likely end up a smaller organization with less influence. But if the board’s goal is to get back to their roots, bigger isn’t necessarily better.

        It’s definitely a failure, though, if you think of it in conventional for-profit business terms. I expect that a lot of employees saw the expected value of their equity compensation go up in smoke, and that’s probably enough to explain why this coup was so unpopular. Becoming the next Google would make them rich, I expect.

        (Since OpenAI has a non-traditional structure, they don’t have traditional stock options. Equity compensation looks complicated.)

        And it seems Sutskever changed his mind. What happened? I don’t actually know much about him, but he seemed to be a man of strong convictions? A curious gesture. What’s he really thinking?

        I also wonder about the contract terms that OpenAI has for renting computing power from Microsoft. If Microsoft becomes a competitor, how badly off are they?

        8 votes
        1. [4]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          Some related contract terms. According to Stratechery, Microsoft has “a perpetual license to all OpenAI IP … including source code and model weights.” However, from this page. What counts as AGI,...

          Some related contract terms.

          According to Stratechery, Microsoft has “a perpetual license to all OpenAI IP … including source code and model weights.”

          However, from this page.

          the board determines when we've attained AGI. Again, by AGI we mean a highly autonomous system that outperforms humans at most economically valuable work. Such a system is excluded from IP licenses and other commercial terms with Microsoft, which only apply to pre-AGI technology.

          What counts as AGI, according to the specific contract terms, is suddenly very important. How much wiggle room does the board have? A court case would be interesting.

          Stratechery makes a surprising claim:

          The biggest loss of all, though, is a necessary one: the myth that anything but a for-profit corporation is the right way to organize a company.

          It seems like Wikipedia and Firefox are still hanging in there? Things are changing every day. Maybe OpenAI will go that way.

          Apparently the new CEO “puts the probability of AI doom at between 5 and 50 percent and has advocated a significant slowdown in development.”

          5 votes
          1. [3]
            skybrian
            Link Parent
            Here is Matt Levine’s commentary. He believes OpenAI isn’t profitable: I wonder, though, if OpenAI can cut costs enough to keep going? If a lot of employees leave, that’s a big cost reduction...

            Here is Matt Levine’s commentary.

            He believes OpenAI isn’t profitable:

            OpenAI has not, as far as I know, built artificial general intelligence yet, but more to the point it has not built profitable artificial intelligence yet. A week ago, the Financial Times reported that OpenAI “remained unprofitable due to training costs” and “expected ‘to raise a lot more over time’ from [Microsoft] among other investors, to keep up with the punishing costs of building more sophisticated AI models.”

            It is not difficult to know what role money plays in the current world! The role money plays is: OpenAI (still) needs a lot of it, and investors have it. If you are a promising tech startup (and OpenAI very much is) then you can raise a lot of money from investors (and OpenAI very much has) while giving them little in the way of formal governance rights (and OpenAI very much does). You can even say “write me a $13 billion check, but view it in the spirit of a donation,” and they’ll do it.6

            You just can’t mean that! There are limits! You can’t just call up Microsoft and be like “hey you know that CEO you like, the one who negotiated your $13 billion investment? We decided he was a little too commercial, a little too focused on making a profitable product for investors. So we fired him. The press release goes out in one minute. Have a nice day.”

            I mean, technically, you can do that, and OpenAI’s board did. But then Microsoft, when they recover from their shock, are going to call you back and say things like “if you want to see any more of our money you hire him back by Monday morning.” And you will say “no no no you don’t understand, we’re benefiting humanity here, we control the company, we have no fiduciary duties to you, our decision is what counts.” And Microsoft will tap the diagram — the second diagram — and say, in a big green voice: “MONEY.” And you still need money.

            I wonder, though, if OpenAI can cut costs enough to keep going? If a lot of employees leave, that’s a big cost reduction already, and they didn’t have to lay them off. Maybe the services they charge for are profitable enough to keep operating if they cut back on the free stuff. This would be pulling off a Twitter-scale downsizing except not evil.

            Only people inside OpenAI, with access to their accounts, could make a guess at that, and even they probably don’t know for sure.

            On the other hand, if the story here is “OpenAI’s board of directors found a Rogue Capitalism at OpenAI, and moved to kill it before it could destroy their nice nonprofit mission,” well, it’s also not clear that that worked. (It’s not clear that it’s true, either: Shear tweeted this morning that “the board did not remove Sam over any specific disagreement on safety, their reasoning was completely different from that. I’m not crazy enough to take this job without board support for commercializing our awesome models.”) Capitalism, like the metaphorical superintelligent robot, is pretty crafty. If the board killed the Rogue Capitalism at OpenAI, it will pop up again elsewhere. “Ahahaha you fools,” say Microsoft and the OpenAI employees and, like, the abstract concept of Silicon Valley startup investing generally. “You trusted in the formalities of corporate governance, I outwitted you easily!”

            6 votes
            1. EgoEimi
              Link Parent
              I also hear that revenue from ChatGPT Plus memberships and API access usage is barely enough to cover computing costs, let alone R&D. If I were the board, I would have waited until OpenAI were...

              I also hear that revenue from ChatGPT Plus memberships and API access usage is barely enough to cover computing costs, let alone R&D.

              If I were the board, I would have waited until OpenAI were profitable and powerful enough to stand on its own — and then pulled the coup, and then leverage that money and power to pursue the mission.

              The board seemed to have profoundly overestimated their position of power and killed the engines before even achieving escape velocity.

              4 votes
            2. skybrian
              Link Parent
              More Matt Levine commentary, framing this as a board versus staff dispute at a nonprofit: He links to an interesting article about this kind of dispute which I posted here. … …

              More Matt Levine commentary, framing this as a board versus staff dispute at a nonprofit:

              So a charity to feed the homeless might have to decide whether to spend a marginal dollar of donations on food for the homeless or higher salaries for the staff. It is not obvious that the staff will prefer higher salaries while the board will prefer feeding more clients, but it is possible; really it is a pretty standard story of agency costs, and the board’s role is to manage those costs.

              He links to an interesting article about this kind of dispute which I posted here.

              Yesterday virtually all of OpenAI’s staff signed an open letter to the board, demanding that the board resign and bring back Altman. The letter claims that the board “informed the leadership team that allowing the company to be destroyed ‘would be consistent with the mission.’” Yes! I mean, the board might be wrong about the facts, but in principle it is absolutely possible that destroying OpenAI’s business would be consistent with its mission. If you have built an unsafe AI, you delete the code and burn down the building. The mission is conditional — build AGI if it is safe — and if the condition is not satisfied then you go ahead and destroy all of the work. That is the board’s job. It’s the board’s job because it can’t be the staff’s job, because the staff is there to do the work, and will be too conflicted to destroy it. The board is there to supervise the mission.

              I don’t mean to say that the board is right! The board really are outside kibbitzers! Between OpenAI’s staff, who know what they’re talking about but also kinda like building AI, and OpenAI’s board, who lean more to being AI-skeptical outsiders, I guess I’d bet on the staff being right.[2] (Also if the board’s job is to prevent the development of rogue AI, burning down OpenAI is unlikely to accomplish that, just because there are competitors who will gleefully hire the staff.) I am just saying that this is a standard and real problem in nonprofit governance, and what’s weird about OpenAI is that it’s an $86 billion startup with nonprofit governance.

              I guess the other thing to say is that, generally speaking, a staff is often more essential to a nonprofit than a board is? (Except that at a lot of nonprofits — not OpenAI! — the directors tend to also be big donors and fundraisers.) Like, the staff does the work; the board just goes to occasional meetings. If the staff all quit then the nonprofit is in trouble; if the directors all quit they’re pretty replaceable.

              Obviously another way to look at the OpenAI situation is that OpenAI is an $86 billion tech startup that did some real odd stuff to incinerate most of its value. […] So Bloomberg reports that “some investors were considering writing down the value of their OpenAI holdings to zero.” Eighty-six billion dollars of value evaporated in a weekend.

              I feel like the lesson here is not so much “don’t invest in startups without vetting the board and ideally getting a board seat for yourself,” and more “don’t invest in nonprofits at an $86 billion valuation.” Which I think has never come up before? Like as far as I can tell no one in human history has ever purchased shares in a nonprofit at an $86 billion valuation? Because purchasing shares in a nonprofit, at any valuation, is not a coherent thing to do? But then OpenAI made it happen, for the first time, and probably also the last.

              1 vote
    2. public
      Link Parent
      Even if they had a noncompete clause, what's to stop him from working from a competitor and putting OpenAI out of business before they can collect on a judgment if such noncompete isn't paired...

      Even if they had a noncompete clause, what's to stop him from working from a competitor and putting OpenAI out of business before they can collect on a judgment if such noncompete isn't paired with a $2b golden parachute? Spite is one powerful motivator.

      1 vote
  4. [2]
    LetterCounter
    Link
    With a guaranteed offer for any employees who want to join the former CEO at MS, the fact they are trying to oust the board and stay at OpenAI says a lot. I feel like I would probably take the MS...

    With a guaranteed offer for any employees who want to join the former CEO at MS, the fact they are trying to oust the board and stay at OpenAI says a lot.

    I feel like I would probably take the MS offer.

    14 votes
    1. raze2012
      Link Parent
      I'm sure many people at a place like OpenAI have their pick of any given company they want in the field. But there's some benefits to keeping independent while owning such "hot" tech at the...

      I'm sure many people at a place like OpenAI have their pick of any given company they want in the field. But there's some benefits to keeping independent while owning such "hot" tech at the moment.

      But if they aren't confident in leadership after all this, it's better to jump where the leaders they do believe in are.

      10 votes
  5. [2]
    phoenixrises
    Link
    Another update: Microsoft hires Sam Altman, and OpenAI’s new CEO vows to investigate his firing https://apnews.com/article/altman-ai-chatgpt-leadership-microsoft-a110b173c3eff4a374992017f05cd45a...

    Another update: Microsoft hires Sam Altman, and OpenAI’s new CEO vows to investigate his firing
    https://apnews.com/article/altman-ai-chatgpt-leadership-microsoft-a110b173c3eff4a374992017f05cd45a

    jk this is already old news: https://tildes.net/~tech/1c9m/sam_altman_will_join_microsoft_to_lead_a_new_advanced_al_research_team_following_his_ouster_from

    jeez this news is moving too fast

    7 votes
    1. DefiantEmbassy
      Link Parent
      Yeah, this is following from that.

      Yeah, this is following from that.

      4 votes