Hahahaha I'd argue appliances in general need MORE research these days because of all those extra and unnecessary features. It feels like the manufacturers sometimes focus on those more than the...
Even refrigerators, my favorite example of products that don’t require much research before buying, are adopting features that nobody or few people asked for, like screens and internet connectivity, complicating something that should be (and was) easy
I'd argue appliances in general need MORE research these days because of all those extra and unnecessary features. It feels like the manufacturers sometimes focus on those more than the actual core functionality of the product. I'm pretty sure those features also raise the price of the product, which is annoying for features you never use, and can make repairs harder depending on how integrated that stuff is.
On that note, I agree with the core tenet of the review that most people don't need a super fancy mouse. Two buttons and a scroll wheel are the minimum requirements for a good experience for daily use cases. Other features and functions are basically luxury add-ons: convenient, but not strictly necessary for the average person. I ended up looking up the Logitech MX Master because of the mention of apps, and the fact a mouse has software with installation tutorial videos just... Boggles my mind.
I cringe imagining people like my mom buying one of those just because it's at the top of a recommendation list... That's how she chose our oven/stove, and it has a wi-fi button we will never use. For people like her, a $10 mouse is definitely good enough, but they'd still grab a much more expensive and complicated mouse with features and buttons they will never use solely because it's on a recommendation list.
My fridge broke on me last month and looking into a new one turned out to be more overwhelming than spending a day with YouTube videos helping me track down the problem. $100 on eBay for a used...
My fridge broke on me last month and looking into a new one turned out to be more overwhelming than spending a day with YouTube videos helping me track down the problem. $100 on eBay for a used compressor controller later I no longer need to worry about, at least for now.
Usually you can go to a few recommendation sites and find a brand/model pattern, like I did for a food dehydrator. With refrigerators it’s so much more complicated. Best counter depth, best French door, best with ice in the door, best smart fridge, 27 kinds of ice, best garage ready, best for small spaces, door within a door models, they even have some with no freezers. We went to Best Buy to browse, they have a model for $14,000 that I feel like really should make lunch for you.
With fridges, I just threw out the idea of looking at recommendation lists or articles at all because I knew the majority of those lists would be fluff and just go over the top household name...
With fridges, I just threw out the idea of looking at recommendation lists or articles at all because I knew the majority of those lists would be fluff and just go over the top household name brands. Which is fine for cheaper stuff, but not for a major purchase you ideally want to last for years. And as mentioned in my post, there'd been multiple issues with LG fridges to the point a lawsuit was filed. We were luckily in a position where it wasn't urgent, so could take our time.
The best tips I took from that thread:
Absolutely avoid in-door ice makers or ice makers outside the freezer in general. Those break all too easily and cause the worst of the issues
Look for models that have been around for a couple years so you can browse older reviews, since stuff takes a while to break down
Look at the label for where it's manufactured. To quote that video linked in the top comment, chances are it'll last longer if made with American quality control standards versus Thailand, Mexico or China. Not guaranteed, but higher chance since production is outsourced to those countries because it's cheaper
Honestly, watch that whole video linked in the top comment. It's got a lot of useful tips
We did our research gradually, and got a decent Whirlpool fridge that had good reviews from people who'd owned them for a couple years. Ended up leaving it when we moved, and my mom bought (in her words) the same one but this year's model. So, here's hoping they didn't make any changes besides reordering the drawers...
Though honestly, the fact we have to do that level of research really is kind of crazy. I'd expect the main concerns to be depth/space constraints, shelf arrangement, storage space, etc.—basic stuff, not "will this fridge still work in 5 years?" Because my research basically boiled down to just that question, which is insane since that should be a given. All the other extra features tend to drown that one out though.
On a related note: I'd recommend researching washers and dryers in a similar depth. Those are usually urgent purchases where people just grab whatever's on the floor, but those seem to have the most regrets. Just recently one of our neighbors complained about how her new set lacks some of the basic features her old one had, and wished she'd done some research. I also recall multiple instances over the years of recalls due to them... Well, exploding. So uh, yeah. Given how they're frequently used, you want them to be reliable, functional, have the features you want, and not at potential risk of exploding.
How could that even happen in a way that is the dryer's fault? I owned an old gas dryer for a long time and never had an issue. Natural gas has a smell added to it so you should be well aware if...
I also recall multiple instances over the years of recalls due to them... Well, exploding.
How could that even happen in a way that is the dryer's fault? I owned an old gas dryer for a long time and never had an issue. Natural gas has a smell added to it so you should be well aware if you have a leak, and I'd assume it would require a gas leak to cause an explosion...
Also, if you ever suspect a gas leak, call your natural gas utility provider. They will get someone to you ASAP, they take it very seriously.
Well, they don't "explode" in the sense of a fireball, but it's still a pretty accurate description. Seems to primarily happen to washers, not dryers, based on a cursory search.
Plenty of Samsung washing machines have exploded too (pretty sure that's the one I remember having a big recall several years back due to multiple explosions in q short time), and searching...
Plenty of Samsung washing machines have exploded too (pretty sure that's the one I remember having a big recall several years back due to multiple explosions in q short time), and searching "washing machine exploding" brings up photos of at least one front-loader. I just linked that one because it had an actual video of the explosion. Speaking of, this article mentions cheap glass as a factor in exploding glass doors. So avoid glass doors for washers and dryers in general. And maybe also the Beko brand, I guess.
Given how they work, makes sense that washing machines are more prone to explosive catastrophic failure than most other appliances. So that makes it even more important to make sure you buy a good one.
I don’t doubt that the simpler fridges are more reliable, but it’s a bummer because I’ve gotten quite used to having an external water and ice dispenser. It’s annoying to have to remember to...
I don’t doubt that the simpler fridges are more reliable, but it’s a bummer because I’ve gotten quite used to having an external water and ice dispenser. It’s annoying to have to remember to refill pitchers and ice trays and they take up a substantial amount of interior space. Right now I have a GE Profile fridge with those features I bought about four years ago now and it’s been trouble-free, crossing my fingers that continues.
On washers and dryers, I bought a pair of those the same year I did the fridge (moved into a house) and seemingly lucked out. They’re both higher end LG models that are still manufactured today and are well-reviewed, which have also not been any trouble at all.
Even in our old fridge with an external ice dispenser, the ice maker still took up space in the freezer anyway so I'm just used to working around it. Our current one feels like it has more limited...
Even in our old fridge with an external ice dispenser, the ice maker still took up space in the freezer anyway so I'm just used to working around it. Our current one feels like it has more limited freezer space, and it's annoying to have to bend down to get ice. But there's a water dispenser inside the fridge that's chilled, so I end up barely needing ice.
Funnily enough, the external dispenser on our old fridge did cause problems eventually because the flap wouldn't close all the way, allowing air to seep in. Frost would build up to the point the door could barely open, so I'd spend half an hour each day after school just chipping away at it with a fork. Looking back, I'm sure that airflow probably would've caused more problems, but I was just annoyed at the frost blocking the door. Finally ended up "sealing" it with duct tape, so for probably ten years the ice dispenser was useless.
I’ve been convinced for a while that the sweet spot for appliances is to go for the highest price-per-feature - you want to spend as much as your budget allows because good mechanical engineering...
I’ve been convinced for a while that the sweet spot for appliances is to go for the highest price-per-feature - you want to spend as much as your budget allows because good mechanical engineering costs money, but you want to spend it on the bits of the appliance that do appliance things rather than the bits that do home electronics things. Utilitarian but expensive is the dream, although most customers hate that so the market doesn’t tend to select for it unless you’re looking at commercial grade stuff.
Fewer features for more money means the money’s either going to build quality, styling, or profiteering, and I’ve had decent luck filtering out the latter two just from looking at how the brand in general positions itself.
I get it, and chacun son gout, but I don't think I would ever go back to plain 3-button mouse. I get too much value out of many-button mice. My favourite so far is the Logitech G300s (DDG images)....
I get it, and chacun son gout, but I don't think I would ever go back to plain 3-button mouse. I get too much value out of many-button mice. My favourite so far is the Logitech G300s (DDG images). I am just very disappointed that not only is the G300s no longer manufactured, it seems no brands at all make mice anymore with buttons on the top instead of on the side. Once my current G300s dies, my only resort may be making my own with 3D printing and a salvaged motherboard or something. I don't know.
I couldn't do any less than 5 buttons. I need the two side buttons. They're far too ingrained in my muscle memory. In games they're usually mapped to hard-to-reach action bar items. Outside of...
I couldn't do any less than 5 buttons. I need the two side buttons. They're far too ingrained in my muscle memory. In games they're usually mapped to hard-to-reach action bar items. Outside of games they're good for navigating forward/backward in the browser, IDEs, etc.
And that's not to mention the ability to toggle between bluetooth pairings, which makes bouncing between computers a breeze. And sometimes being able to step the DPI up/down on the fly is very useful as well.
I mean I appreciate finding perfection in a simpler, cheaper device, but I'm just too spoiled by modern mice. And thankfully all of the above features have become more and more affordable over the years.
I feel you with that last sentence. My go to mouse for the better part of a decade was a G9X, and once that started falling apart they didn't make them anymore. Fortunately for me, MadCatz of all...
I feel you with that last sentence. My go to mouse for the better part of a decade was a G9X, and once that started falling apart they didn't make them anymore. Fortunately for me, MadCatz of all companies had a line of mice, the RAT series, with a similar profile and button layout, so that's what I'm using now. They've already gone bankrupt once since I started using their products though, and I'm probably SOL for a similar mouse if they do go under completely.
I get the appeal of simple mice, especially for casual users or work, but my current RAT 6+ has a little scroll knob close to my thumb and I've tied it to volume control and I can no longer go without it.
MadCatz made some horrible products and I don't think them folding has cost humanity much, but credit where credit is due: I'll give them the RAT. I owned a RAT7 and that product line was...
MadCatz made some horrible products and I don't think them folding has cost humanity much, but credit where credit is due: I'll give them the RAT. I owned a RAT7 and that product line was incredibly solid and unique.
Why not just get a G502? It actually has one more button than the g300 (three more if you count the left/right press functions on the mouse wheel), and they're in far more ergonomic positions, IMO.
Once my current G300s dies, my only resort may be making my own with 3D printing and a salvaged motherboard or something. I don't know.
Why not just get a G502? It actually has one more button than the g300 (three more if you count the left/right press functions on the mouse wheel), and they're in far more ergonomic positions, IMO.
I mouse with the left hand, I really, really want the buttons on the top. I move a mouse around with my pinky, ring finger, and thumb, so side buttons are essentially a showstopper. I've tried...
I mouse with the left hand,
I really, really want the buttons on the top. I move a mouse around with my pinky, ring finger, and thumb, so side buttons are essentially a showstopper. I've tried them before with the Roccat Kova (which I otherwise liked). Trying to press a side button just moves the mouse, which is a non-starter.
Ah, sorry, I didn't realize. The G502 would definitely not be ergonomic to use for a lefty. And sadly they don't seem to make a left-handed version either. :(
Ah, sorry, I didn't realize. The G502 would definitely not be ergonomic to use for a lefty. And sadly they don't seem to make a left-handed version either. :(
The mouse industry is very right-hand biased. Hard to blame them, as the numbers only make sense, but still. Hopefully more ambidextrous mice come out.
The mouse industry is very right-hand biased. Hard to blame them, as the numbers only make sense, but still. Hopefully more ambidextrous mice come out.
Yeah, it's actually pretty silly though since left-handedness isn't that uncommon. I suspect that the top buttons requirement is actually going to be the truly difficult thing to find though,...
Yeah, it's actually pretty silly though since left-handedness isn't that uncommon. I suspect that the top buttons requirement is actually going to be the truly difficult thing to find though, since that G300 layout is unique in that regard. And all the ambidextrous mice I do know of (e.g. G900/903) have their extra buttons on the sides. :/
LOL, maybe. I still can't quite picture how you're using the mouse though, TBH. I also control my mouse with my pinky, ring finger and thumb too but still have no problem using side buttons...
LOL, maybe. I still can't quite picture how you're using the mouse though, TBH. I also control my mouse with my pinky, ring finger and thumb too but still have no problem using side buttons without causing the mouse to move. The weight of my mouse, plus the weight of my hand resting on it prevents that from happening, as does pressure from the opposite side's fingers. You typically only need to press very very lightly to trigger most side buttons too, so there isn't much force being applied that needs to be counteracted.
Are you hovering your hand completely over the mouse, and not wresting your palm on top of the mouse or something?
p.s. Out of curiosity, if you're using the mouse with your left hand, on the left side of the keyboard, how do you play WASD movement based games? Do you have to shift the keyboard all the way over to the right so your right hand can hit those keys, or do you have to use the numpad instead?
It'll be clear once I explain: I put the majority of my arm weight down at the wrist, where there is a cushy wrist rest. Nothing of the hand is resting on or even contacting the mouse, other than...
It'll be clear once I explain: I put the majority of my arm weight down at the wrist, where there is a cushy wrist rest. Nothing of the hand is resting on or even contacting the mouse, other than the fingertips. Move the mouse with thumb, ring, and pinky; click with index and middle fingers. This is perhaps analogous to using a trackpad on a laptop. None of one's palm is involved in that at all. So, I guess I'm "trackpadding with thumb, ring, pinky", in a sense (though I've never thought of it that way until now as I type this). DDG image search
So, since nothing is stabilizing the mouse, pressing inwards with the thumb moves the mouse pointer at least a little bit (if I'm careful), and probably a lot if I'm frantically playing a video game. I'm testing right now, looking at my mouse cursor, and I can't "squeeze" with the thumb and ring+pinky without seeing my mouse cursor jiggle at least a little. In contrast, I can relatively easily do regular left or right clicks without moving the cursor at all.
Mousing with the hand resting on the mouse seems to require actuation of the shoulder, which seems like it would cause fatigue or even repetitive motion injury over time.
re: Mousing with left hand: Almost all PC games allow one to remap keys, so I use the arrow keys (not numpad, which I use for something else system-wide) for movement, and nearby keys for secondary game functions (the 6-pack of ins, del, etc.; backslash, enter, Ctrl, Shift, Alt, Backspace). For hitting number keys or function keys, I usually use my left hand for this (taking it off the mouse momentarily). The multi-button mouse lets me map a few things to those buttons, too, usually power attacks or gadgets. To get even more try-hard, I'll sheepishly admit I even have a pedal set that lets me map 3 more keys to those. Quite useful for most games.
TBH, I've never really thought about my exact mouse hand positioning before either. I've always just done what feels natural for me. Which, looking at those DDG images, it seems like I do the...
TBH, I've never really thought about my exact mouse hand positioning before either. I've always just done what feels natural for me. Which, looking at those DDG images, it seems like I do the "claw grip" where I'm using my fingertip but my palm is still wresting on the base of the mouse. Whereas I guess you're doing the "tip grip" with no palm contact at all? I can see how that would make clicking side buttons cause way more movement in the mouse. :/
Mousing with the hand resting on the mouse seems to require actuation of the shoulder, which seems like it would cause fatigue or even repetitive motion injury over time.
I don't feel like I use my shoulder at all. It's all wrist and fingertips, other than big sweeping movements where some forearm comes in to it.
I use the arrow keys (not numpad, which I use for something else system-wide) for movement, and nearby keys for secondary game functions (the 6-pack of ins, del, etc.; backslash, enter, Ctrl, Shift, Alt, Backspace)
Weird. I feel like that would be such a PITA since INS, DEL, etc are so far away from the arrow keys! Whereas I regularly use the Shift, CTRL, and QERTZXC keys in a lot of game especially FPS'. E.g. Shift for sprint, R for reload, C for crouch, etc. And having them right next to WASD allows me to click them while still using the WASD keys simultaneously to strafe and whatnot. If I had to fully lift up my hand up to reach that far above WASD, like if I was using the F keys, that would slow me down so much!
I mean, I'm trying it now (putting weight on the "humpback" of the mouse), and I don't see how I can do up/down mouse actions without getting my shoulder involved. You can even put your opposite...
I don't feel like I use my shoulder at all. It's all wrist and fingertips, other than big sweeping movements where some forearm comes in to it.
I mean, I'm trying it now (putting weight on the "humpback" of the mouse), and I don't see how I can do up/down mouse actions without getting my shoulder involved. You can even put your opposite hand on your shoulder to feel the muscles activating.
Weird. [...] so far away [...] would slow me down so much!
I dunno, it seems to work for me. If I don't need any other keys, then I put thumb, index, middle, and ring on down, left, up, and right. If I need secondary keys, I actually use the ring finger on up arrow (move forward), which frees up thumb, index, and middle for the "orbitting" secondary keys. Thumb for Alt and Ctrl, index for Shift and Enter, and middle for \, Backspace, Ins, Del, End, Home. Middle and pinky for Left and Right respectively.
Anyway, for things I really need quick access to, I put them on the extra mouse buttons. That lets me use the secondary keyboard keys for things that are needed occasionally, and not necessarily when under time pressure. For things that are ideally done with one hand moving the character, one hand aiming with mouse, I assign them to the foot pedals. Healing on the left pedal is common for me, for example, so I can still move, aim, shoot, cast spells, whatever, and fire off a heal without interrupting any of that.
Also: Nothing stopping someone from mapping WASD to a similar quartet of keys on the right side of the letters, such as IJKL or OKL;. Then you'd get similar benefits as you mentioned, having more keys more closely adjacent.
Do you have your mouse sensitivity set to super super low or something? All it takes to move the mouse cursor up/down the entire height of a screen for me is a slight extending/retraction of my...
I don't see how I can do up/down mouse actions without getting my shoulder involved
Do you have your mouse sensitivity set to super super low or something? All it takes to move the mouse cursor up/down the entire height of a screen for me is a slight extending/retraction of my fingers. My shoulder doesn't need to activate whatsoever since I don't actually need to move my hand's overall vertical position at all... my wrist stays in pretty much the same location the entire time.
Anyway, for things I really need quick access to, I put them on the extra mouse buttons.
Yeah, I still do that too. E.g. I prefer grenades and melee (in shooters) to be bound to mouse buttons. I don't have a foot pedal though. That's pretty handy, and I can see that being super useful!
Hm, I'm not sure. I mean, I can go across my 4k monitor with just one sweep of the wrist + fingers; and I can go top to bottom with the fingers, but I can't do that without the fingers, which...
Do you have your mouse sensitivity set to super super low or something? All it takes to move the mouse cursor up/down the entire height of a screen for me is a slight extending/retraction of my fingers. My shoulder doesn't need to activate whatsoever since I don't actually need to move my hand's overall vertical position at all... my wrist stays pretty much in the same location the entire time.
Hm, I'm not sure. I mean, I can go across my 4k monitor with just one sweep of the wrist + fingers; and I can go top to bottom with the fingers, but I can't do that without the fingers, which would be the case if I'm resting the weight of my hand and arm on the mouse's back. Don't you have to lift off of the mouse to do an up/down with your fingers?
Nope. I literally just extend/retract my fingers. Video p.s. My mouse "Sensitivity (DPI)" is typically set to 2000 in Ghub but I often adjust it to 1500 or 3000 using the DPI Up/Down buttons on my...
Don't you have to lift off of the mouse to do an up/down with your fingers?
Nope. I literally just extend/retract my fingers. Video
p.s. My mouse "Sensitivity (DPI)" is typically set to 2000 in Ghub but I often adjust it to 1500 or 3000 using the DPI Up/Down buttons on my mouse, depending on the situation... and the G502 also has a "DPI shift" button at the tip of my thumb that significantly drops the DPI while holding it down in order to aim more accurately.
If you need to fully lift your hand up and rebase the position of your wrist to move the mouse up/down a screen height, your sensitivity is probably set way way way too low. And that's definitely how you get RSI. :P
Given that video, I cannot conceive how how the mouse back isn't displacing from its position on the palm. Like, if I put a spot of paint on the back of my mouse, I do not see how I can make an...
Given that video, I cannot conceive how how the mouse back isn't displacing from its position on the palm. Like, if I put a spot of paint on the back of my mouse, I do not see how I can make an up/down movement without smearing the paint into a line on my palm. Other than, of course, by not contacting the mouse at all (as with the fingertip grip that I already use).
re: DPI: I can cross the width of my 4k monitor in about 2 inches of movement on the mousepad. Well within bounds of a wrist-only or fingertip-only movement (or hybrid).
The mouse is being displaced under my hand so a paint drop on it would smear, but the connection with my hand still remains near constant. The pressure/weight goes from the base of my palm at the...
The mouse is being displaced under my hand so a paint drop on it would smear, but the connection with my hand still remains near constant. The pressure/weight goes from the base of my palm at the bottom of the movement to the mid palm then to the palm pads under my fingers as I extend my fingers fully at the top of the movement. All of that happens naturally as my fingers flatten out though, so I don't have to think about it. And throughout the motion I can still click the side buttons at any point without it shifting the mouse position since there is always at least a tiny bit of weight on it.
I have a friend who found out his favorite mouse was no longer going to be manufactured so he ended up buying several of them (3-5 can't remember how many he has) new in box. He watched for deals...
I have a friend who found out his favorite mouse was no longer going to be manufactured so he ended up buying several of them (3-5 can't remember how many he has) new in box. He watched for deals on eBay and would buy them up at a certain threshold.
I've become so used to the Razer Naga over the last ~12 years that when mine developed issue I bought a refurbished one and plan to bring my original mouse in to a repair shop. My only complaint right now is that Razer Synapse doesn't recognize the mouse on my work Mac whenever I use it through the cheap USB hub/dock I use and I have no USB A ports to plug it in to.
This is me. Microsoft wheel mouse optical 1.1a, been using it since it came out. By the time the first one died, they were out of production so i went on eBay and found someone selling a lot of a...
This is me. Microsoft wheel mouse optical 1.1a, been using it since it came out. By the time the first one died, they were out of production so i went on eBay and found someone selling a lot of a half dozen of them. Been working my way through them. I should buy more, though the mouse in this post seems appealing.
The weight, build quality, shape, everything about that mouse is just perfect. I still have mine in a box somewhere. On some bright beautiful day when I no longer need to juggle multiple devices...
The weight, build quality, shape, everything about that mouse is just perfect. I still have mine in a box somewhere. On some bright beautiful day when I no longer need to juggle multiple devices I'll return her to her former glory atop my desk.
Does strong preference for particular mouse models come down to the shape, or more the overall product? Just curious because there’s USB mouse kits out there designed to be fitted into a 3D...
Does strong preference for particular mouse models come down to the shape, or more the overall product?
Just curious because there’s USB mouse kits out there designed to be fitted into a 3D printed shell of whatever shape, so if the shape is the main thing that’d be a practically infinite source of new mice of the same type.
Its less about the specific shape, more about the build quality and value. These mice last me 7+ years of almost daily use. And I've never paid more than 20 bucks for one. It was a long time ago...
Its less about the specific shape, more about the build quality and value. These mice last me 7+ years of almost daily use. And I've never paid more than 20 bucks for one. It was a long time ago but the lot off ebay was around 60 bucks I think.
Ploopy.co make pretty cool mice (including a Microsoft trackball clone) trackpads and knobs. It’s all open hardware and open source, you can assemble it and 3D print the enclosure, and it’s very...
Ploopy.co make pretty cool mice (including a Microsoft trackball clone) trackpads and knobs. It’s all open hardware and open source, you can assemble it and 3D print the enclosure, and it’s very reasonably priced. And they’re completely programmable. I love mine and it only cost me 50$.
This isn't open source but Nulea have one that I really like and it is around $40. The ploopy one is around $200CAD assembled and it looks 3D printed? What does the ploopy.co texture feel like?
Microsoft trackball clone
This isn't open source but Nulea have one that I really like and it is around $40. The ploopy one is around $200CAD assembled and it looks 3D printed? What does the ploopy.co texture feel like?
I was thinking of asking if they are willing to entertain new design ideas (so I could ask them to make something with top buttons), but then, in their support site:
I was thinking of asking if they are willing to entertain new design ideas (so I could ask them to make something with top buttons), but then, in their support site:
Can you customize my order?
No. While our devices are made in a very small factory, it’s still a factory. It just doesn’t work for us to make one of anything.
Even small changes, such as adding a few extra parts, or making something in a custom colour, are not very practical for us.
We have maintenance kits for all of our designs, which are stocked with all of the extra parts that you might need to alter or maintain your device.
It looks like a decent mouse, and cheap but quality things are always fun to find. But I think the author is underselling more advanced mouse features. Apparently only gamers and video editors can...
It looks like a decent mouse, and cheap but quality things are always fun to find. But I think the author is underselling more advanced mouse features. Apparently only gamers and video editors can benefit from more than 3 buttons? How about anyone who browses the web? I don’t know how anyone can live without forward and back buttons on their mouse. I urge anyone who is mouse shopping to spend a few extra dollars on side buttons and actually try using them.
And one of the categories that apparently doesn’t need extra buttons is people who work in spreadsheets all day. For those people, get a mouse with a horizontal scroll wheel. Horizontal scroll wheels in most computing tasks is not necessary. But if you live in spreadsheets, you need either a horizontal scroll wheel or an ultrawide monitor. Preferably both.
Also that mouse is way too tiny for my hands and grip style.
I was forced to start using a mouse again because I wanted to learn some Blender and it’s really hard to use without one. I dug up a basic mouse that probably came with a computer a decade ago. It...
I was forced to start using a mouse again because I wanted to learn some Blender and it’s really hard to use without one. I dug up a basic mouse that probably came with a computer a decade ago. It didn’t work well on my bare desk so I stuck my self healing mat under it and now it works great. I’ve never actually had a fancy mouse, don’t even know what the extra buttons are for, I’m just glad I don’t need to clean the ball rollers anymore.
I don’t like mice, they aggravate my RSI even when used left handed; hot keys and a touchpad give me far fewer issues. It’s even better when I’m able to add in voice control.
The compact one is very cute. I may give it a shot in my next job if they give me a hardware budget. I haven't yet learned to use my 3d printer, learning Blender was part of a yak shave to...
The compact one is very cute. I may give it a shot in my next job if they give me a hardware budget. I haven't yet learned to use my 3d printer, learning Blender was part of a yak shave to learning that, which turned into, "ooooh, physics!"
I'm going to be honest with everyone, I have too many mice. Logitech G600s, MX Anywhere 2 and 3, Kensington Expert Mouse Trackball, Logitech M570s, Logitech G100s (over a decade old now), various...
I'm going to be honest with everyone, I have too many mice. Logitech G600s, MX Anywhere 2 and 3, Kensington Expert Mouse Trackball, Logitech M570s, Logitech G100s (over a decade old now), various cheap wired mice, a couple Microsoft wireless mice, and yet I still try out new mice all the time. I've even been looking at mice recommended in this thread.
The mouse they're fawning over looks terrible, even for an ambidextrous mouse. It's so flat it reminds me of the A1152 Mighty Mouse I've got shoved in a drawer somewhere. My carpal tunnel started acting up just at the sight of it. I use different mice for every activity - my G600s side buttons are a boon in MMOs, my Kensington's top buttons are great for navigation or copy paste, M570 gets thrown in the travel bag because you don't have to worry about having a desk at the airport and so on. I could bring myself to live off a three button mouse again but I need some girth in the palm! A mouse is really about a lot of specific biomechanical and convenience factors and, while I do a ton with my keyboard when I can (please don't ask how many keyboards are in my house) I treat my mice like knives in a drawer - they're all different tools for different jobs.
Anyone has a tip for a similarly cheap (semi)vertical mouse? I used to use a Connect IT mouse for around that price, but they use shitty scroll wheels that broke just after the warranty was over,...
Anyone has a tip for a similarly cheap (semi)vertical mouse?
I used to use a Connect IT mouse for around that price, but they use shitty scroll wheels that broke just after the warranty was over, 2 or 3 times in a row. Now I'm using an Anker mouse which costs about twice that, it's almost exactly the same and the scroll wheel hasn't broken yet, but it looks exactly the same as well from the outside, so I think it's planned obsolescence time again.
I use a Nulea M513 vertical mouse. It was dirt cheap on Amazon, but doesn't seem to be available there anymore, just their more expensive M510, which looks identical. I've gone through lots of...
I use a Nulea M513 vertical mouse. It was dirt cheap on Amazon, but doesn't seem to be available there anymore, just their more expensive M510, which looks identical. I've gone through lots of inexpensive vertical mice (? mouses ?), and this one has been a champ. I'll be sad to see it go.
Yes, it was less than $10. https://www.amazon.com/s?i=merchant-items&me=A31QXAPHLWD7DF&page=2&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&refresh=3&xpid=AcIhPTcdJr_aY&ref=sr_pg_2
Huh! I'm able to buy it on that page for $8 sold by QiMai-US. It shows up as out of stock for you? But the one you linked doesn't show up on their store page that I linked... so it must be a...
Huh! I'm able to buy it on that page for $8 sold by QiMai-US. It shows up as out of stock for you?
But the one you linked doesn't show up on their store page that I linked... so it must be a targeted thing
I went with the Logitech G305. It’s still only $30, but it’s wireless, has a high DPI sensor, and a very premium scroll wheel for the price. Everything that contributes to it being a good mouse...
I went with the Logitech G305. It’s still only $30, but it’s wireless, has a high DPI sensor, and a very premium scroll wheel for the price. Everything that contributes to it being a good mouse that feels good to use is high quality, but there are no extra frills. It’s a nice mouse that cut all the right corners to reach a price point.
Hahahaha
I'd argue appliances in general need MORE research these days because of all those extra and unnecessary features. It feels like the manufacturers sometimes focus on those more than the actual core functionality of the product. I'm pretty sure those features also raise the price of the product, which is annoying for features you never use, and can make repairs harder depending on how integrated that stuff is.
On that note, I agree with the core tenet of the review that most people don't need a super fancy mouse. Two buttons and a scroll wheel are the minimum requirements for a good experience for daily use cases. Other features and functions are basically luxury add-ons: convenient, but not strictly necessary for the average person. I ended up looking up the Logitech MX Master because of the mention of apps, and the fact a mouse has software with installation tutorial videos just... Boggles my mind.
I cringe imagining people like my mom buying one of those just because it's at the top of a recommendation list... That's how she chose our oven/stove, and it has a wi-fi button we will never use. For people like her, a $10 mouse is definitely good enough, but they'd still grab a much more expensive and complicated mouse with features and buttons they will never use solely because it's on a recommendation list.
My fridge broke on me last month and looking into a new one turned out to be more overwhelming than spending a day with YouTube videos helping me track down the problem. $100 on eBay for a used compressor controller later I no longer need to worry about, at least for now.
Usually you can go to a few recommendation sites and find a brand/model pattern, like I did for a food dehydrator. With refrigerators it’s so much more complicated. Best counter depth, best French door, best with ice in the door, best smart fridge, 27 kinds of ice, best garage ready, best for small spaces, door within a door models, they even have some with no freezers. We went to Best Buy to browse, they have a model for $14,000 that I feel like really should make lunch for you.
With fridges, I just threw out the idea of looking at recommendation lists or articles at all because I knew the majority of those lists would be fluff and just go over the top household name brands. Which is fine for cheaper stuff, but not for a major purchase you ideally want to last for years. And as mentioned in my post, there'd been multiple issues with LG fridges to the point a lawsuit was filed. We were luckily in a position where it wasn't urgent, so could take our time.
The best tips I took from that thread:
We did our research gradually, and got a decent Whirlpool fridge that had good reviews from people who'd owned them for a couple years. Ended up leaving it when we moved, and my mom bought (in her words) the same one but this year's model. So, here's hoping they didn't make any changes besides reordering the drawers...
Though honestly, the fact we have to do that level of research really is kind of crazy. I'd expect the main concerns to be depth/space constraints, shelf arrangement, storage space, etc.—basic stuff, not "will this fridge still work in 5 years?" Because my research basically boiled down to just that question, which is insane since that should be a given. All the other extra features tend to drown that one out though.
On a related note: I'd recommend researching washers and dryers in a similar depth. Those are usually urgent purchases where people just grab whatever's on the floor, but those seem to have the most regrets. Just recently one of our neighbors complained about how her new set lacks some of the basic features her old one had, and wished she'd done some research. I also recall multiple instances over the years of recalls due to them... Well, exploding. So uh, yeah. Given how they're frequently used, you want them to be reliable, functional, have the features you want, and not at potential risk of exploding.
How could that even happen in a way that is the dryer's fault? I owned an old gas dryer for a long time and never had an issue. Natural gas has a smell added to it so you should be well aware if you have a leak, and I'd assume it would require a gas leak to cause an explosion...
Also, if you ever suspect a gas leak, call your natural gas utility provider. They will get someone to you ASAP, they take it very seriously.
Well, they don't "explode" in the sense of a fireball, but it's still a pretty accurate description. Seems to primarily happen to washers, not dryers, based on a cursory search.
That's wild. A little surprised it's a top-loader, but not surprised it's Samsung. Absolutely no reason for a glass top...
Plenty of Samsung washing machines have exploded too (pretty sure that's the one I remember having a big recall several years back due to multiple explosions in q short time), and searching "washing machine exploding" brings up photos of at least one front-loader. I just linked that one because it had an actual video of the explosion. Speaking of, this article mentions cheap glass as a factor in exploding glass doors. So avoid glass doors for washers and dryers in general. And maybe also the Beko brand, I guess.
Given how they work, makes sense that washing machines are more prone to explosive catastrophic failure than most other appliances. So that makes it even more important to make sure you buy a good one.
I don’t doubt that the simpler fridges are more reliable, but it’s a bummer because I’ve gotten quite used to having an external water and ice dispenser. It’s annoying to have to remember to refill pitchers and ice trays and they take up a substantial amount of interior space. Right now I have a GE Profile fridge with those features I bought about four years ago now and it’s been trouble-free, crossing my fingers that continues.
On washers and dryers, I bought a pair of those the same year I did the fridge (moved into a house) and seemingly lucked out. They’re both higher end LG models that are still manufactured today and are well-reviewed, which have also not been any trouble at all.
Even in our old fridge with an external ice dispenser, the ice maker still took up space in the freezer anyway so I'm just used to working around it. Our current one feels like it has more limited freezer space, and it's annoying to have to bend down to get ice. But there's a water dispenser inside the fridge that's chilled, so I end up barely needing ice.
Funnily enough, the external dispenser on our old fridge did cause problems eventually because the flap wouldn't close all the way, allowing air to seep in. Frost would build up to the point the door could barely open, so I'd spend half an hour each day after school just chipping away at it with a fork. Looking back, I'm sure that airflow probably would've caused more problems, but I was just annoyed at the frost blocking the door. Finally ended up "sealing" it with duct tape, so for probably ten years the ice dispenser was useless.
Fair warning, these sites usually just grade the product the highest that gives them the best affliate deal.
But yeah, buying appliances sucks.
This is the guy I like to get advice from regarding appliances. https://www.youtube.com/@bensappliancesandjunk
I’ve been convinced for a while that the sweet spot for appliances is to go for the highest price-per-feature - you want to spend as much as your budget allows because good mechanical engineering costs money, but you want to spend it on the bits of the appliance that do appliance things rather than the bits that do home electronics things. Utilitarian but expensive is the dream, although most customers hate that so the market doesn’t tend to select for it unless you’re looking at commercial grade stuff.
Fewer features for more money means the money’s either going to build quality, styling, or profiteering, and I’ve had decent luck filtering out the latter two just from looking at how the brand in general positions itself.
I get it, and chacun son gout, but I don't think I would ever go back to plain 3-button mouse. I get too much value out of many-button mice. My favourite so far is the Logitech G300s (DDG images). I am just very disappointed that not only is the G300s no longer manufactured, it seems no brands at all make mice anymore with buttons on the top instead of on the side. Once my current G300s dies, my only resort may be making my own with 3D printing and a salvaged motherboard or something. I don't know.
I couldn't do any less than 5 buttons. I need the two side buttons. They're far too ingrained in my muscle memory. In games they're usually mapped to hard-to-reach action bar items. Outside of games they're good for navigating forward/backward in the browser, IDEs, etc.
And that's not to mention the ability to toggle between bluetooth pairings, which makes bouncing between computers a breeze. And sometimes being able to step the DPI up/down on the fly is very useful as well.
I mean I appreciate finding perfection in a simpler, cheaper device, but I'm just too spoiled by modern mice. And thankfully all of the above features have become more and more affordable over the years.
I feel you with that last sentence. My go to mouse for the better part of a decade was a G9X, and once that started falling apart they didn't make them anymore. Fortunately for me, MadCatz of all companies had a line of mice, the RAT series, with a similar profile and button layout, so that's what I'm using now. They've already gone bankrupt once since I started using their products though, and I'm probably SOL for a similar mouse if they do go under completely.
I get the appeal of simple mice, especially for casual users or work, but my current RAT 6+ has a little scroll knob close to my thumb and I've tied it to volume control and I can no longer go without it.
MadCatz made some horrible products and I don't think them folding has cost humanity much, but credit where credit is due: I'll give them the RAT. I owned a RAT7 and that product line was incredibly solid and unique.
Why not just get a G502? It actually has one more button than the g300 (three more if you count the left/right press functions on the mouse wheel), and they're in far more ergonomic positions, IMO.
Ah, sorry, I didn't realize. The G502 would definitely not be ergonomic to use for a lefty. And sadly they don't seem to make a left-handed version either. :(
The mouse industry is very right-hand biased. Hard to blame them, as the numbers only make sense, but still. Hopefully more ambidextrous mice come out.
Yeah, it's actually pretty silly though since left-handedness isn't that uncommon. I suspect that the top buttons requirement is actually going to be the truly difficult thing to find though, since that G300 layout is unique in that regard. And all the ambidextrous mice I do know of (e.g. G900/903) have their extra buttons on the sides. :/
Honestly, it makes me feel like I've been "mousing wrong" my whole life (moving mouse with my fingers on sides), and I say that only half jokingly.
LOL, maybe. I still can't quite picture how you're using the mouse though, TBH. I also control my mouse with my pinky, ring finger and thumb too but still have no problem using side buttons without causing the mouse to move. The weight of my mouse, plus the weight of my hand resting on it prevents that from happening, as does pressure from the opposite side's fingers. You typically only need to press very very lightly to trigger most side buttons too, so there isn't much force being applied that needs to be counteracted.
Are you hovering your hand completely over the mouse, and not wresting your palm on top of the mouse or something?
p.s. Out of curiosity, if you're using the mouse with your left hand, on the left side of the keyboard, how do you play WASD movement based games? Do you have to shift the keyboard all the way over to the right so your right hand can hit those keys, or do you have to use the numpad instead?
It'll be clear once I explain: I put the majority of my arm weight down at the wrist, where there is a cushy wrist rest. Nothing of the hand is resting on or even contacting the mouse, other than the fingertips. Move the mouse with thumb, ring, and pinky; click with index and middle fingers. This is perhaps analogous to using a trackpad on a laptop. None of one's palm is involved in that at all. So, I guess I'm "trackpadding with thumb, ring, pinky", in a sense (though I've never thought of it that way until now as I type this). DDG image search
So, since nothing is stabilizing the mouse, pressing inwards with the thumb moves the mouse pointer at least a little bit (if I'm careful), and probably a lot if I'm frantically playing a video game. I'm testing right now, looking at my mouse cursor, and I can't "squeeze" with the thumb and ring+pinky without seeing my mouse cursor jiggle at least a little. In contrast, I can relatively easily do regular left or right clicks without moving the cursor at all.
Mousing with the hand resting on the mouse seems to require actuation of the shoulder, which seems like it would cause fatigue or even repetitive motion injury over time.
re: Mousing with left hand: Almost all PC games allow one to remap keys, so I use the arrow keys (not numpad, which I use for something else system-wide) for movement, and nearby keys for secondary game functions (the 6-pack of ins, del, etc.; backslash, enter, Ctrl, Shift, Alt, Backspace). For hitting number keys or function keys, I usually use my left hand for this (taking it off the mouse momentarily). The multi-button mouse lets me map a few things to those buttons, too, usually power attacks or gadgets. To get even more try-hard, I'll sheepishly admit I even have a pedal set that lets me map 3 more keys to those. Quite useful for most games.
TBH, I've never really thought about my exact mouse hand positioning before either. I've always just done what feels natural for me. Which, looking at those DDG images, it seems like I do the "claw grip" where I'm using my fingertip but my palm is still wresting on the base of the mouse. Whereas I guess you're doing the "tip grip" with no palm contact at all? I can see how that would make clicking side buttons cause way more movement in the mouse. :/
I don't feel like I use my shoulder at all. It's all wrist and fingertips, other than big sweeping movements where some forearm comes in to it.
Weird. I feel like that would be such a PITA since INS, DEL, etc are so far away from the arrow keys! Whereas I regularly use the Shift, CTRL, and QERTZXC keys in a lot of game especially FPS'. E.g. Shift for sprint, R for reload, C for crouch, etc. And having them right next to WASD allows me to click them while still using the WASD keys simultaneously to strafe and whatnot. If I had to fully lift up my hand up to reach that far above WASD, like if I was using the F keys, that would slow me down so much!
I mean, I'm trying it now (putting weight on the "humpback" of the mouse), and I don't see how I can do up/down mouse actions without getting my shoulder involved. You can even put your opposite hand on your shoulder to feel the muscles activating.
I dunno, it seems to work for me. If I don't need any other keys, then I put thumb, index, middle, and ring on down, left, up, and right. If I need secondary keys, I actually use the ring finger on up arrow (move forward), which frees up thumb, index, and middle for the "orbitting" secondary keys. Thumb for Alt and Ctrl, index for Shift and Enter, and middle for
\, Backspace, Ins, Del, End, Home. Middle and pinky for Left and Right respectively.Anyway, for things I really need quick access to, I put them on the extra mouse buttons. That lets me use the secondary keyboard keys for things that are needed occasionally, and not necessarily when under time pressure. For things that are ideally done with one hand moving the character, one hand aiming with mouse, I assign them to the foot pedals. Healing on the left pedal is common for me, for example, so I can still move, aim, shoot, cast spells, whatever, and fire off a heal without interrupting any of that.
Also: Nothing stopping someone from mapping WASD to a similar quartet of keys on the right side of the letters, such as
IJKLorOKL;. Then you'd get similar benefits as you mentioned, having more keys more closely adjacent.Do you have your mouse sensitivity set to super super low or something? All it takes to move the mouse cursor up/down the entire height of a screen for me is a slight extending/retraction of my fingers. My shoulder doesn't need to activate whatsoever since I don't actually need to move my hand's overall vertical position at all... my wrist stays in pretty much the same location the entire time.
Yeah, I still do that too. E.g. I prefer grenades and melee (in shooters) to be bound to mouse buttons. I don't have a foot pedal though. That's pretty handy, and I can see that being super useful!
Hm, I'm not sure. I mean, I can go across my 4k monitor with just one sweep of the wrist + fingers; and I can go top to bottom with the fingers, but I can't do that without the fingers, which would be the case if I'm resting the weight of my hand and arm on the mouse's back. Don't you have to lift off of the mouse to do an up/down with your fingers?
Nope. I literally just extend/retract my fingers. Video
p.s. My mouse "Sensitivity (DPI)" is typically set to 2000 in Ghub but I often adjust it to 1500 or 3000 using the DPI Up/Down buttons on my mouse, depending on the situation... and the G502 also has a "DPI shift" button at the tip of my thumb that significantly drops the DPI while holding it down in order to aim more accurately.
If you need to fully lift your hand up and rebase the position of your wrist to move the mouse up/down a screen height, your sensitivity is probably set way way way too low. And that's definitely how you get RSI. :P
Given that video, I cannot conceive how how the mouse back isn't displacing from its position on the palm. Like, if I put a spot of paint on the back of my mouse, I do not see how I can make an up/down movement without smearing the paint into a line on my palm. Other than, of course, by not contacting the mouse at all (as with the fingertip grip that I already use).
re: DPI: I can cross the width of my 4k monitor in about 2 inches of movement on the mousepad. Well within bounds of a wrist-only or fingertip-only movement (or hybrid).
The mouse is being displaced under my hand so a paint drop on it would smear, but the connection with my hand still remains near constant. The pressure/weight goes from the base of my palm at the bottom of the movement to the mid palm then to the palm pads under my fingers as I extend my fingers fully at the top of the movement. All of that happens naturally as my fingers flatten out though, so I don't have to think about it. And throughout the motion I can still click the side buttons at any point without it shifting the mouse position since there is always at least a tiny bit of weight on it.
I have a friend who found out his favorite mouse was no longer going to be manufactured so he ended up buying several of them (3-5 can't remember how many he has) new in box. He watched for deals on eBay and would buy them up at a certain threshold.
I've become so used to the Razer Naga over the last ~12 years that when mine developed issue I bought a refurbished one and plan to bring my original mouse in to a repair shop. My only complaint right now is that Razer Synapse doesn't recognize the mouse on my work Mac whenever I use it through the cheap USB hub/dock I use and I have no USB A ports to plug it in to.
This is me. Microsoft wheel mouse optical 1.1a, been using it since it came out. By the time the first one died, they were out of production so i went on eBay and found someone selling a lot of a half dozen of them. Been working my way through them. I should buy more, though the mouse in this post seems appealing.
I’m a big fan of that mouse as well. It’s everything I want from a mouse, and no more.
The weight, build quality, shape, everything about that mouse is just perfect. I still have mine in a box somewhere. On some bright beautiful day when I no longer need to juggle multiple devices I'll return her to her former glory atop my desk.
Does strong preference for particular mouse models come down to the shape, or more the overall product?
Just curious because there’s USB mouse kits out there designed to be fitted into a 3D printed shell of whatever shape, so if the shape is the main thing that’d be a practically infinite source of new mice of the same type.
Its less about the specific shape, more about the build quality and value. These mice last me 7+ years of almost daily use. And I've never paid more than 20 bucks for one. It was a long time ago but the lot off ebay was around 60 bucks I think.
Ploopy.co make pretty cool mice (including a Microsoft trackball clone) trackpads and knobs. It’s all open hardware and open source, you can assemble it and 3D print the enclosure, and it’s very reasonably priced. And they’re completely programmable. I love mine and it only cost me 50$.
This isn't open source but Nulea have one that I really like and it is around $40. The ploopy one is around $200CAD assembled and it looks 3D printed? What does the ploopy.co texture feel like?
I was thinking of asking if they are willing to entertain new design ideas (so I could ask them to make something with top buttons), but then, in their support site:
It looks like a decent mouse, and cheap but quality things are always fun to find. But I think the author is underselling more advanced mouse features. Apparently only gamers and video editors can benefit from more than 3 buttons? How about anyone who browses the web? I don’t know how anyone can live without forward and back buttons on their mouse. I urge anyone who is mouse shopping to spend a few extra dollars on side buttons and actually try using them.
And one of the categories that apparently doesn’t need extra buttons is people who work in spreadsheets all day. For those people, get a mouse with a horizontal scroll wheel. Horizontal scroll wheels in most computing tasks is not necessary. But if you live in spreadsheets, you need either a horizontal scroll wheel or an ultrawide monitor. Preferably both.
Also that mouse is way too tiny for my hands and grip style.
Yup, the Logitech M90. That's my mouse too. Love it.
I was forced to start using a mouse again because I wanted to learn some Blender and it’s really hard to use without one. I dug up a basic mouse that probably came with a computer a decade ago. It didn’t work well on my bare desk so I stuck my self healing mat under it and now it works great. I’ve never actually had a fancy mouse, don’t even know what the extra buttons are for, I’m just glad I don’t need to clean the ball rollers anymore.
I don’t like mice, they aggravate my RSI even when used left handed; hot keys and a touchpad give me far fewer issues. It’s even better when I’m able to add in voice control.
In case you weren't aware, a space mouse can make 3d navigation loads easier. There are also DIY options if the steep price tag is a nonstarter.
The compact one is very cute. I may give it a shot in my next job if they give me a hardware budget. I haven't yet learned to use my 3d printer, learning Blender was part of a yak shave to learning that, which turned into, "ooooh, physics!"
Ah yes, if you go deep enough, every project secretly contains every other project within it.
I'm going to be honest with everyone, I have too many mice. Logitech G600s, MX Anywhere 2 and 3, Kensington Expert Mouse Trackball, Logitech M570s, Logitech G100s (over a decade old now), various cheap wired mice, a couple Microsoft wireless mice, and yet I still try out new mice all the time. I've even been looking at mice recommended in this thread.
The mouse they're fawning over looks terrible, even for an ambidextrous mouse. It's so flat it reminds me of the A1152 Mighty Mouse I've got shoved in a drawer somewhere. My carpal tunnel started acting up just at the sight of it. I use different mice for every activity - my G600s side buttons are a boon in MMOs, my Kensington's top buttons are great for navigation or copy paste, M570 gets thrown in the travel bag because you don't have to worry about having a desk at the airport and so on. I could bring myself to live off a three button mouse again but I need some girth in the palm! A mouse is really about a lot of specific biomechanical and convenience factors and, while I do a ton with my keyboard when I can (please don't ask how many keyboards are in my house) I treat my mice like knives in a drawer - they're all different tools for different jobs.
Anyone has a tip for a similarly cheap (semi)vertical mouse?
I used to use a Connect IT mouse for around that price, but they use shitty scroll wheels that broke just after the warranty was over, 2 or 3 times in a row. Now I'm using an Anker mouse which costs about twice that, it's almost exactly the same and the scroll wheel hasn't broken yet, but it looks exactly the same as well from the outside, so I think it's planned obsolescence time again.
I use a Nulea M513 vertical mouse. It was dirt cheap on Amazon, but doesn't seem to be available there anymore, just their more expensive M510, which looks identical. I've gone through lots of inexpensive vertical mice (? mouses ?), and this one has been a champ. I'll be sad to see it go.
It looks like they have a few available for around $20--was the M513 a lot cheaper?
Yes, it was less than $10.
https://www.amazon.com/s?i=merchant-items&me=A31QXAPHLWD7DF&page=2&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&refresh=3&xpid=AcIhPTcdJr_aY&ref=sr_pg_2
Huh! I'm able to buy it on that page for $8 sold by QiMai-US. It shows up as out of stock for you?
But the one you linked doesn't show up on their store page that I linked... so it must be a targeted thing
I went with the Logitech G305. It’s still only $30, but it’s wireless, has a high DPI sensor, and a very premium scroll wheel for the price. Everything that contributes to it being a good mouse that feels good to use is high quality, but there are no extra frills. It’s a nice mouse that cut all the right corners to reach a price point.