22 votes

Apple will reportedly release an iPhone without any ports in 2021

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126 comments

  1. [40]
    HanakoIsBestGirl
    Link
    Im an android user on an lgv20 so perhaps im not very up to date on modern apple phones, but here are my thoughts. Removing the headphone jack was stupid. This is stupider. How are recoveries from...

    Im an android user on an lgv20 so perhaps im not very up to date on modern apple phones, but here are my thoughts.

    Removing the headphone jack was stupid.

    This is stupider.

    How are recoveries from botched updates or other situations going to work without a cable? I know I cant live without adb and fastboot on my phone, I imagine there is an apple equivalent.

    Some people want to charge their phones quickly. Wireless charging is slower than a cable. If I forgot to charge last night and I wake up on 20%, being able to quickly get to 80% before I leave is crucial. (Well, my phone has replaceable batteries, but you get the point)

    I bet this would make itunes sync even slower as now you cant even use a cable. Or perhaps not, I know mtp on android is very slow.

    Wireless charging is not long range yet. If your phone is low on charge and you want to charge it, its going to have go sit on a wireless charging base as you use it, instead of just being plugged into a cable.

    This will probably also annoy people who like thick phone cases (or battery cases) as they will no longer be very usuable.

    Also afaik wireless charging puts off a lot of heat, which will damage the battery. If you are the kind of person who doesn't buy a new phone every year, I foresee a problem. Although I guess you can always replace the battery.

    Overall, this takes away options and alternatives from the users. And im not really sure what the benefit will be. Waterproofing? Possible with a port. Thinness? Its already too damn thin.

    Lets hope that this prediction is wrong.

    25 votes
    1. [39]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      The Apple Watch has a diagnostic port for that. It's just much smaller and sealed. The vast majority of people will never need to use it over the life of the device and the vast majority among the...

      How are recoveries from botched updates or other situations going to work without a cable? I know I cant live without adb and fastboot on my phone,

      The Apple Watch has a diagnostic port for that. It's just much smaller and sealed. The vast majority of people will never need to use it over the life of the device and the vast majority among the fraction who do will take it to an Apple Store for servicing anyway.

      I imagine there is an apple equivalent.

      Not really. If you're into that sort of thing you're either enough of a tinkerer that you can get a third party diagnostic port interface or you're not buying an iPhone.

      Some people want to charge their phones quickly. Wireless charging is slower than a cable. If I forgot to charge last night and I wake up on 20%, being able to quickly get to 80% before I leave is crucial.

      This seems like a theoretical problem, but I doubt it's that big of an issue for most people. And if it is for you, there are plenty of solutions to make it go away.

      I bet this would make itunes sync even slower as now you cant even use a cable.

      Nobody syncs via iTunes anymore. It's all done through iCloud now.

      Wireless charging is not long range yet. If your phone is low on charge and you want to charge it, its going to have go sit on a wireless charging base as you use it, instead of just being plugged into a cable.

      Solved problem

      Also afaik wireless charging puts off a lot of heat, which will damage the battery.

      The fast-charging use case you talked about earlier is actually worse for the battery. Also, iPhones actively manage how quickly the phone charges and and will slow down the charge rate if it's getting hot enough to damage the battery. They actually try to keep it at an optimal charging temperature. There has been a lot of engineering done to maximize battery health over the past few iterations. There is even some software tracking your habits and making decisions around when you need it to charge fast or not. It even does stuff like checking against any alarms you've set to charge it slowly overnight and only speed it up if you're planning to wake up soon and it's not nearly full.

      13 votes
      1. [13]
        envy
        Link Parent
        I absolutely sync my 512gb phone via iTunes.

        Nobody syncs via iTunes anymore. It's all done through iCloud now.

        I absolutely sync my 512gb phone via iTunes.

        5 votes
        1. [12]
          babypuncher
          Link Parent
          iTunes has had wireless syncing for almost a decade now.

          iTunes has had wireless syncing for almost a decade now.

          1 vote
          1. [10]
            envy
            Link Parent
            Hundreds of gigabytes over wifi? Yaaaaaaay!

            Hundreds of gigabytes over wifi?

            Yaaaaaaay!

            9 votes
            1. [3]
              Parliament
              Link Parent
              Tbh I'm more surprised to hear that people are still using iTunes at all. I kinda forgot about it.

              Tbh I'm more surprised to hear that people are still using iTunes at all. I kinda forgot about it.

              3 votes
              1. [2]
                envy
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                Yeah, I don't like paying subscriptions for audiobooks/ music/ iCloud storage. And I have about 200GB of acquired audiobooks/ music (not through torrenting) Plus I need to install dev apps via the...

                Yeah, I don't like paying subscriptions for audiobooks/ music/ iCloud storage.

                And I have about 200GB of acquired audiobooks/ music (not through torrenting)

                Plus I need to install dev apps via the IPA files.

                And my wife would freak if she found out I was syncing my kids photos to the cloud.

                Edit: I am the holdout @emdash referred to below.

                3 votes
                1. Parliament
                  Link Parent
                  I figured. I don't sync anything to the cloud either. All stored on my home server and streamed or synced to my device as needed.

                  I figured. I don't sync anything to the cloud either. All stored on my home server and streamed or synced to my device as needed.

                  2 votes
            2. [2]
              emdash
              Link Parent
              This is a non-sequitur disguised as humor. WiFi, especially recent standards, has speeds that are fast enough for the vast majority of smartphone buyers; and reliability with WiFi shouldn't be a...

              This is a non-sequitur disguised as humor. WiFi, especially recent standards, has speeds that are fast enough for the vast majority of smartphone buyers; and reliability with WiFi shouldn't be a question anymore.

              2 votes
              1. envy
                Link Parent
                I am a hold out. I already admitted that elsewhere in this thread. I recently upgraded my netflix, so I am excited to get blu-ray discs in the mail now. <-that was a non-sequitur. I disagree that...

                I am a hold out. I already admitted that elsewhere in this thread. I recently upgraded my netflix, so I am excited to get blu-ray discs in the mail now. <-that was a non-sequitur. I disagree that above is a non-sequitur.

                1 vote
            3. [4]
              babypuncher
              Link Parent
              Maybe upgrade your router? My iPad syncs faster over WiFi than USB.

              Maybe upgrade your router? My iPad syncs faster over WiFi than USB.

              1 vote
              1. [3]
                envy
                Link Parent
                How do you fit all the data onto one computer? I have to plug in an external drive otherwise I would max out my poor 1tb drive.

                How do you fit all the data onto one computer? I have to plug in an external drive otherwise I would max out my poor 1tb drive.

                1 vote
                1. [2]
                  babypuncher
                  Link Parent
                  Your phone has more storage space than your laptop? And what does that have to do with syncing with a wire or wirelessly?

                  Your phone has more storage space than your laptop? And what does that have to do with syncing with a wire or wirelessly?

                  1 vote
                  1. envy
                    Link Parent
                    No. It's unrelated. Except if I am plugging in an external drive, I might as well plug the phone in as well. It's not like I will benefit from a trickle wireless sync.

                    No. It's unrelated. Except if I am plugging in an external drive, I might as well plug the phone in as well. It's not like I will benefit from a trickle wireless sync.

                    1 vote
          2. jwong
            Link Parent
            I've never been able to get wireless iTunes syncing working well. Every time it takes forever to get started, and the progress indicator isn't accurate either. Whenever I add new music, I can...

            I've never been able to get wireless iTunes syncing working well. Every time it takes forever to get started, and the progress indicator isn't accurate either.

            Whenever I add new music, I can reliably plug my phone in and be done within 5 minutes vs. waiting 5 minutes for wireless to start working and wondering how close it is to being done.

            5 votes
      2. [2]
        nothis
        Link Parent
        I actually don't want to be that guy but I'm looking at this pic and wonder what exactly I'm saving, then. It's still a wire?

        I actually don't want to be that guy but I'm looking at this pic and wonder what exactly I'm saving, then. It's still a wire?

        3 votes
        1. Weldawadyathink
          Link Parent
          Wireless charging really just changes when you mess with wires. With wired charging, you plug in a wire every night or whenever you want to charge. With wireless, you setup a station on your...

          Wireless charging really just changes when you mess with wires. With wired charging, you plug in a wire every night or whenever you want to charge. With wireless, you setup a station on your nightstand and at your desk. Then you just set your phone there and leave it. You don't have to mess around with cables at charge time.

          5 votes
      3. [13]
        emdash
        Link Parent
        Exactly. If people cared enough about this to be meaningfully impacted by such a change, they'd already own a Kanzi cable or a derivative thereof 🙃.

        If you're into that sort of thing you're either enough of a tinkerer that you can get a third party diagnostic port interface

        Exactly. If people cared enough about this to be meaningfully impacted by such a change, they'd already own a Kanzi cable or a derivative thereof 🙃.

        2 votes
        1. [12]
          hungariantoast
          Link Parent
          I looked this up, because I had never heard of it before, and all the results I got suggest these cables cost $1,000+. Am I missing something, or is that the actual cost? Also, as far as I can...

          Kanzi cable

          I looked this up, because I had never heard of it before, and all the results I got suggest these cables cost $1,000+. Am I missing something, or is that the actual cost?

          Also, as far as I can tell, this special cable allows iPhone users to... access their device like almost any Android phone is capable of being accessed via regular cables?

          I'm just... really confused. Help.

          8 votes
          1. [11]
            emdash
            Link Parent
            Apple-issued debug cable for employees. These days there’s sophisticated mechanisms in place which prevent these entering the grey market, thus the high price.

            Apple-issued debug cable for employees. These days there’s sophisticated mechanisms in place which prevent these entering the grey market, thus the high price.

            4 votes
            1. [10]
              Grzmot
              Link Parent
              So why the special cable? It's not for technical reasons.

              So why the special cable? It's not for technical reasons.

              1 vote
              1. [9]
                emdash
                Link Parent
                I don't know whether you have the necessary credentials to rule whether it's for technical reasons or not?

                I don't know whether you have the necessary credentials to rule whether it's for technical reasons or not?

                4 votes
                1. [8]
                  Grzmot
                  Link Parent
                  Because every other phone that's not the iPhone uses its standard charging port for debugging.

                  Because every other phone that's not the iPhone uses its standard charging port for debugging.

                  8 votes
                  1. zptc
                    Link Parent
                    Looks like the cable has a built-in chipset of some kind which enables access to dev mode on dev-enabled phones.

                    Looks like the cable has a built-in chipset of some kind which enables access to dev mode on dev-enabled phones.

                    2 votes
                  2. [2]
                    emdash
                    Link Parent
                    iPhone models come in a variety of flavours, and as soon as they’re available for general use, a fuse in the chipset is blown to prevent access to development-specific hardware, so yes, these...

                    iPhone models come in a variety of flavours, and as soon as they’re available for general use, a fuse in the chipset is blown to prevent access to development-specific hardware, so yes, these cables are for debugging, and they do exist for technical reasons.

                    2 votes
                    1. Grzmot
                      Link Parent
                      That technical reason being that Apple on purpose disallows people to access parts of the phone so that people can't do things with their property that Apple dislikes. Doesn't sound like a...

                      That technical reason being that Apple on purpose disallows people to access parts of the phone so that people can't do things with their property that Apple dislikes.

                      Doesn't sound like a technical reason to me.

                      2 votes
                  3. [3]
                    anahata
                    Link Parent
                    That doesn't mean the iPhone does too.

                    That doesn't mean the iPhone does too.

                    1 vote
                    1. [2]
                      Grzmot
                      Link Parent
                      It does not, but it makes the port rather useless, don't you think? Debugging should be definitely possible over the standard charging port, but that would allow users to do stuff with their phone...

                      It does not, but it makes the port rather useless, don't you think? Debugging should be definitely possible over the standard charging port, but that would allow users to do stuff with their phone that Apple doesn't want them to do.

                      3 votes
                      1. emdash
                        Link Parent
                        If you have a prod-fused iPhone, you can’t debug with a regular cable.

                        If you have a prod-fused iPhone, you can’t debug with a regular cable.

                        1 vote
                  4. babypuncher
                    Link Parent
                    You can use the lightning port for debugging iOS apps, though wireless debugging works just as well. What you can't do is debug the firmware, but since iOS devices don't support loading custom...

                    You can use the lightning port for debugging iOS apps, though wireless debugging works just as well.

                    What you can't do is debug the firmware, but since iOS devices don't support loading custom firmware, it's really only useful for security researchers.

                    1 vote
      4. Weldawadyathink
        Link Parent
        I have a galaxy s10e with fast wireless charging. It only takes an extra 10 minutes or so on top of qc/pd fast charging. Slow wireless charging is only a problem if Apple makes it a problem.

        I have a galaxy s10e with fast wireless charging. It only takes an extra 10 minutes or so on top of qc/pd fast charging. Slow wireless charging is only a problem if Apple makes it a problem.

        2 votes
      5. [9]
        Grzmot
        Link Parent
        Wireless charging needs a lot more energy than wired charging, and if Apple does release an iPhone without a port without solving this problem, they can kiss their "green" reputation goodbye.

        Wireless charging needs a lot more energy than wired charging, and if Apple does release an iPhone without a port without solving this problem, they can kiss their "green" reputation goodbye.

        1 vote
        1. [8]
          NaraVara
          Link Parent
          This is a ridiculous conclusion. The power draw is less efficient than with a wire, but the total energy used in charging phones is a vanishingly small part of overall household energy use and the...

          Wireless charging needs a lot more energy than wired charging, and if Apple does release an iPhone without a port without solving this problem, they can kiss their "green" reputation goodbye.

          This is a ridiculous conclusion. The power draw is less efficient than with a wire, but the total energy used in charging phones is a vanishingly small part of overall household energy use and the gap between the two has little net impact.??

          And, being as how lightning cables are fragile and prone to burning out, getting rid of those as significant parts of phone use probably has a much bigger positive impact in terms of shipping less stuff, using less rubber, copper, and plastic, producing fewer cables, etc. than the minuscule negative of going wireless.

          7 votes
          1. [4]
            Rocket_Man
            Link Parent
            People like to talk about how we can address problems despite the fact that larger problems exist in society. Just because everything else in wildly inefficient, We do not need to multiply the...

            People like to talk about how we can address problems despite the fact that larger problems exist in society. Just because everything else in wildly inefficient, We do not need to multiply the inefficiency of wireless charging by millions.

            9 votes
            1. NaraVara
              Link Parent
              It’s not that everything else is inefficient. It’s that phones inherently don’t consume that much power. The electricity you’re burning with unlimited data plans and streaming media all day is...

              It’s not that everything else is inefficient. It’s that phones inherently don’t consume that much power. The electricity you’re burning with unlimited data plans and streaming media all day is enough to make the power difference with wireless charging look like a rounding error. So it is absolutely nonsense to say making this switch means Apple “doesn’t care about the environment.” It doesn’t actually have a meaningful impact on their environmental impact. This is penny-wise/pound-foolish thinking.

              6 votes
            2. [2]
              emdash
              Link Parent
              Claiming that Apple can "kiss their green reputation goodbye" by switching to wireless charging is an incredibly overblown take, though.

              Claiming that Apple can "kiss their green reputation goodbye" by switching to wireless charging is an incredibly overblown take, though.

              5 votes
              1. Parliament
                Link Parent
                Couldn't you argue the other side by saying they will reduce waste without a need for cables? I can't tell you how many lightning cables I've gone through over the years.

                Couldn't you argue the other side by saying they will reduce waste without a need for cables? I can't tell you how many lightning cables I've gone through over the years.

                3 votes
          2. [3]
            Grzmot
            Link Parent
            Those parts will only get replaced with larger and better parts for wireless charging, it's not like the phone is getting emptier, and the cables being shoddy is not a valid reason to force people...

            Those parts will only get replaced with larger and better parts for wireless charging, it's not like the phone is getting emptier, and the cables being shoddy is not a valid reason to force people to use wireless charging so Apple can get that sweet cash from wireless charging stations. Especially since you need more material to produce such a station than a cable, so you're absolutely not saving any rubber, copper or plastic. In fact I'd say you need even more.

            And as @Rocket_Man said, only because the real effect is miniscule, it doesn't mean that those millions of Apple users suddenly switching to inefficient as fuck wireless charging is a good thing.

            It's essentially the same discussion we had back then with the 3,5mm port. It's existence does not hurt you if you don't care about it. Same with the charging port. No one is stopping you from using wireless charging already. All this does is force everyone to switch to it, making Apple a bunch of money as they will no doubt come out with expensive wireless charging stations.

            6 votes
            1. [2]
              NaraVara
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              All of Apple’s stuff works with standard Qi chargers while all certified lightning cables have to pay Apple a licensing fee. If anything, this is going to hurt their cash flow on accessories...

              Apple can get that sweet cash from wireless charging stations

              All of Apple’s stuff works with standard Qi chargers while all certified lightning cables have to pay Apple a licensing fee. If anything, this is going to hurt their cash flow on accessories unless their wireless chargers are way better than competitors.

              Especially since you need more material to produce such a station than a cable

              You also only really need one for all of your devices rather than having cables you tote around with you everywhere you go letting them get worn and damaged in your bag or just naturally having the contacts burning out over time.

              And as @Rocket_Man said, only because the real effect is miniscule, it doesn't mean that those millions of Apple users suddenly switching to inefficient as fuck wireless charging is a good thing.

              Do you have actual numbers to corroborate “inefficient as fuck” because I suspect once you do the math you’ll find that this is a dumb exaggeration. It’s easy to blow up minor niggles if you’re trying to rationalize knee-jerk dislike of something. But with perspective you’ll notice it’s not actually a big deal when looked at objectively and you’re just finding things to complain about because you don’t like the idea for other reasons that you can’t/don’t want to articulate.

              It's existence does not hurt you if you don't care about it.

              Removing the headphone jack freed up space for a really good Taptic feedback engine that needs to run the width of the phone to work properly. Fitting components inside a phone is an extremely difficult game of Tetris just to jam everything in there and, on top of that, space them out enough to minimize EM interference between components. Pretending feature bloat doesn’t “hurt anyone” in any way suggests a lack of understanding about how stuff is actually made.

              It’s not a surprise that as soon as Apple dropped the headphone jack everyone else started dumping theirs too within a couple of generations. None of them like designing around it, they just don’t have the market power to push things forward on their own the way Apple does.

              5 votes
              1. Grzmot
                Link Parent
                They don't have to be, they only have to slap their logo on it and they can already charge a markup. An optional Apple certification might still be offered. This is hardly a fair comparison, as...

                If anything, this is going to hurt their cash flow on accessories unless their wireless chargers are way better than competitors.

                They don't have to be, they only have to slap their logo on it and they can already charge a markup. An optional Apple certification might still be offered.

                You also only really need one for all of your devices rather than having cables you tote around with you everywhere you go letting them get worn and damaged in your bag or just naturally having the contacts burning out over time.

                This is hardly a fair comparison, as you probably won't carry a wireless charger around constantly in a bag, and if you would, it would break just as well. I don't quite get what you're talking about with the different cables, as this issue has been already mostly fixed when it comes to phones (and some laptops), it's called USB-C.

                Do you have actual numbers to corroborate “inefficient as fuck” because I suspect once you do the math you’ll find that this is a dumb exaggeration.

                Inductive charging is finnicky, as it relies on the two coils powering the process not being too different in size and of course distance. I dug out the original paper when Qi was introduced.^1 They claim that under optimal circumstances, wireless charging has an efficiency of >90%. However, I have yet to find any other papers that dissect that claim, and the paper was released by a foundation backed by multiple multi-billion companies, Apple among them. Bias has to be taken into account.

                Wired charging is most definitely simpler and relies on less factors, making it the more reliable solution. USB-C made the port even reversible, so now plugging in the cable is an action that takes seconds.

                But with perspective you’ll notice it’s not actually a big deal when looked at objectively and you’re just finding things to complain about because you don’t like the idea for other reasons that you can’t/don’t want to articulate.

                Please don't put words in my mouth, and please take my arguments at face value. I believe what I believe because of those arguments. Not because I'm trying to hide some sort of prejiduce that would cause me to dumbly exaggerate.

                Removing the headphone jack freed up space for a really good Taptic feedback engine that needs to run the width of the phone to work properly.

                Calling a universal standard feature bloat seems hardly accurate to me. Ultimately we don't know the exact reason why Apple removed the jack, but considering they also launched the airpods, they created a problem and then immediately solved it. The cynic I am, I'm assuming that it really helped them sell airpods. And since batteries degrade, it'll help them sell more once people don't actually want new headphones, but need new headphones cause theirs last all of thirty minutes.

                None of them like designing around it, they just don’t have the market power to push things forward on their own the way Apple does.

                Consider you just called me out on getting actual numbers, I'll call you out here on your unsubstantiated claim. You don't know what the hardware engineers like and don't like. Also, the fact that Apple pushed the market forward with this move is debatable.


                ^1 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/5606673

                4 votes
  2. [44]
    NaraVara
    Link
    I suspect this has been a goal for a while now and they're just now thinking the technology has caught up to making it possible. The Apple Watch is already basically fully wireless. ?The only...

    I suspect this has been a goal for a while now and they're just now thinking the technology has caught up to making it possible. The Apple Watch is already basically fully wireless. ?The only problem is that wireless charging still seems a bit finicky. I've woken up several times to find my phone on the charging mat not having charged at all overnight because a few texts or something shook it off the charging "sweet-spot." And I too often place my phone and just have it not register to start charging. Ideally I need a "toss it on the table and don't worry about it" experience and it's not quite there yet.

    On the other hand, none of those things are as much of a pain as actually having to plug a cable in. So this is probably one of those "Everything's amazing, nobody's happy" deals.

    16 votes
    1. [24]
      emdash
      Link Parent
      In general, this is a good example of a "replacement inferiority problem" that plagues progress in so many industries. There's an expectation of a replacement for an ideology or product to be...

      In general, this is a good example of a "replacement inferiority problem" that plagues progress in so many industries. There's an expectation of a replacement for an ideology or product to be better in every single way at the time of initial introduction that ignores the realities of the huge inertia behind the existing technology, and the need to generate inertia behind the replacement technology to ensure it's better in every category. You need significant economic investment to result in meaningful improvements, and that doesn't occur without a leader, or someone willing to make that first step.

      And I believe, ultimately people professing this view hinder the furthering of technology and its adoption.

      We saw it with Apple replacing the headphone jack with wireless AirPods. Headphone jacks had huge inertia (everyone has one, it's a ubiquitous standard), but come with a significant HI downside that is solved by wireless audio: removal of that fucking wire that tangles, that prevents you taking your satchel off, that gets caught on things. At introduction, AirPods were about on-par with wired headphones across the board, but better in a few areas and worse in others (audio quality, battery life). Over time, we've seen the inertia build behind wireless audio (AirPods Pro solves the "low quality BT audio" problem), and battery life is improving thanks to increasingly power efficient chips; and now the advantages of 3.5mm are beginning to fade: feature phones everywhere are dropping the port like it's a hot potato.

      We saw it with electric cars replacing ICE vehicles. It started off with the 2012 Tesla Model S. The innate features of electric automation were already better than an internal combustion engine (no emissions, better for the planet, instant torque, quiet driving), but there were significant downsides: the vehicle was expensive, the range was "just enough", and charging was slow and unsupported. Now there's more inertia behind electric vehicles, these problems are actively being solved. Range is no longer an issue, charging is ubiquitous and fast (if you own a Tesla), and the price for the cheapest Tesla has more than halved. But that initial unpolished release was needed to generate inertia.

      We'll see the exact same thing play out with wireless-charging only. Wireless charging only will be better in some respects, but not all, at time of introduction. But the introduction is needed to push the industry forward. People keep complaining, and usually the final hold outs are the loudest (and least relevant, mind you), but everyone else moves on.

      25 votes
      1. [5]
        Rocket_Man
        Link Parent
        I really dislike this view. It seems like you're worshiping "progress" without really thinking. Apple removing the headphone jack was dumb even if air pods are successful. Also the move to small...

        I really dislike this view. It seems like you're worshiping "progress" without really thinking. Apple removing the headphone jack was dumb even if air pods are successful. Also the move to small devices with batteries that can't be replaced and likely require more resources to manufacture than their wired counterparts doesn't seem like progress to me.

        Additionally the move to wireless charging is supremely bad because it's very inefficient compared to wired conductors. At that point I think you're confusing progress with convenience.

        Also the entire idea that these devices needed to be released in order to build inertia is dubious. Would battery technology not have improved if Tesla never released an electric car?

        30 votes
        1. [2]
          emdash
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I'm not "worshipping" progress (why the quote marks?). We don't need to go to weird accusatory language that implies I'm basing my opinion on some kind of faith here. You can't just say something...

          It seems like you're worshiping "progress"

          I'm not "worshipping" progress (why the quote marks?). We don't need to go to weird accusatory language that implies I'm basing my opinion on some kind of faith here.

          Apple removing the headphone jack was dumb even if air pods are successful.

          You can't just say something like that and expect people to take it as truth. Why in detailed terms, is it dumb? Are you forced to buy the phone? Are no alternatives available to you? Dumb is such poor language here, and frankly I think you're using "dumb" as a euphemism for "I don't like it!", rather than expressing some reasonable opinion.

          Also the move to small devices with batteries that can't be replaced and likely require more resources to manufacture than their wired counterparts doesn't seem like progress to me.

          All the AirPods ever produced fit inside, as of last check, a few shipping containers. I agree e-waste is an issue, but this harps back to my original point that you can't develop a product all in one big go, you need incremental steps to get there. The e-waste issue will be solved with time.

          Also the entire idea that these devices needed to be released in order to build inertia is dubious.

          How so? Have you ever heard of any software or hardware product be released in one giant sweep? In fact, big, monolithic pieces of software or hardware are more likely to fail in the R&D phase than any other.

          At that point I think you're confusing progress with convenience.

          I'm not "confusing" progress with convenience. I'm saying they're often the exact same thing.

          9 votes
          1. Keegan
            Link Parent
            Not who you replied to, but I have some input. I interpreted it as @Rocket_Man's belief that it isn't progress at all. Other companies will copy this, as Apple tends to get copied a lot when...

            Not who you replied to, but I have some input.

            I'm not "worshipping" progress (why the quote marks?). We don't need to go to weird accusatory language that implies I'm basing my opinion on some kind of faith here.

            I interpreted it as @Rocket_Man's belief that it isn't progress at all.

            Are you forced to buy the phone? Are no alternatives available to you?

            Other companies will copy this, as Apple tends to get copied a lot when adding or removing features. See the headphone jack, notch, dedicated fingerprint scanner, multiple cameras.

            I'm not "confusing" progress with convenience. I'm saying they're often the exact same thing.

            My other reply to you in a different chain seems in this topic, so I won't address it here to confuse the comments.

            I can't comment on the rest, but this is just my 2¢.

            12 votes
        2. Weldawadyathink
          Link Parent
          Tesla has improved lithium batteries leaps and bounds. You can find 18650 cells on ebay from teslas simply because they are better than anything else by a wide margin. Also, technological...

          Tesla has improved lithium batteries leaps and bounds. You can find 18650 cells on ebay from teslas simply because they are better than anything else by a wide margin. Also, technological improvement doesn't just come from making things better. Often they come from learning how to use existing technologies better. Tesla is now better than any other manufacturer at assembling large, high output lithium battery packs that can still keep unprecedented power capacity after many charge cycles. Technology does not mature because time passes. It matures because it gets used more and more, and we learn from mistakes.

          8 votes
        3. NaraVara
          Link Parent
          Not as quickly, no. In order to improve technology you need to actually work on improving it. And to get the money to do that you need to actually have a market that wants to buy thing and then...

          Would battery technology not have improved if Tesla never released an electric car?

          Not as quickly, no. In order to improve technology you need to actually work on improving it. And to get the money to do that you need to actually have a market that wants to buy thing and then produce things to sell for them. If more people were about eReaders we’d probably have wider adoption of full color eInk displays by now, for example. But since not enough people care, they’re relegated to niche uses and remain prohibitively expensive since there isn’t enough incentive to work on making it any cheaper.

          4 votes
      2. [5]
        ThatFanficGuy
        Link Parent
        Thank you for saying this. I'm frequenty on the side of the people who feel disenfranchised by the disownership of a ubiquitous technology, mostly because I'm a strong proponent of preparedness,...

        Thank you for saying this. I'm frequenty on the side of the people who feel disenfranchised by the disownership of a ubiquitous technology, mostly because I'm a strong proponent of preparedness, backups being readily-available, and alternative options. I'm one of those backwards-thinking 3.5mm-port worshippers who think that immediately excluding a near-universal consumer-level technology is a mistake, not the very least for the reason of platform lockdown that Apple's been vigorously promoting for years.

        That said, I'm also a strong proponent for technological advancement, especially in the area of portable technology. Now that you've posted your comment, I can see how there may be a meaningful change in the way we handle technology, even if that change is long-term and will require some adaptation, because some technologies are, overall, superior to their predecessors, and conformism should not be a reason for not stepping forward.

        So, thanks for posting this. It made me think.

        9 votes
        1. [4]
          emdash
          Link Parent
          There's definitely important points to be said about the economic disenfranchisement that technology causes, vendor lock in, anti-trust and monopolization of big tech, and so many other things....

          There's definitely important points to be said about the economic disenfranchisement that technology causes, vendor lock in, anti-trust and monopolization of big tech, and so many other things. Personally, I believe these should be addressed by political & societal regulations, rather than decrying a particular advancement in technology, but no government seems keen on that these days.

          It's only going to get worse from what I can see, unfortunately. Companies like Google & Amazon really worry me.

          4 votes
          1. [2]
            hhh
            Link Parent
            the biggest issue with wireless earbuds imo is the battery. having another thing to charge as well as an irreplaceable failure point after a couple years turns me off of them completely.

            the biggest issue with wireless earbuds imo is the battery. having another thing to charge as well as an irreplaceable failure point after a couple years turns me off of them completely.

            7 votes
            1. emdash
              Link Parent
              Agreed. Apple will give you a replacement AirPod if one fails, but at cost. My AirPods from near-launch day now give me 2.5-3 hours of life per session, down from 5 hours at release. I'm hoping...

              Agreed. Apple will give you a replacement AirPod if one fails, but at cost. My AirPods from near-launch day now give me 2.5-3 hours of life per session, down from 5 hours at release. I'm hoping that a focus on improved recycling and design to allow for a manufacturer-replaceable battery are in the pipeline somewhere.

              Products at this point are irresponsible if they're not designed-for-EOL, and Apple is only just starting to do something about it for some of their products. They need to do a lot more because the amount of waste generated from the consumer electronics industry is despicable.

              6 votes
          2. ThatFanficGuy
            Link Parent
            I don't think it ever is about a particular technology. As a user, I don't give a rat's ass about what's causing me problems as long as it does. Any particular item that causes consumer ire is a...

            Personally, I believe these should be addressed by political & societal regulations, rather than decrying a particular advancement in technology

            I don't think it ever is about a particular technology. As a user, I don't give a rat's ass about what's causing me problems as long as it does. Any particular item that causes consumer ire is a lightning rod that attracts discharge better because it's new.

            As such, I do think paying attention to new items that fall under the blanket terminology of "items that upset the technological status quo" is important – not because the items themselves deserve judgement, but because of their effect on the playfield overall, minor though it may initially appear.

            But maybe I'm being regressive about this because I don't understand it.

            And you're right: there's little work done on regulation, either from society or governments. Why do you think that is?

            1 vote
      3. [8]
        reese
        Link Parent
        You're conflating technological introduction with necessitation of the mutual exclusivity of its adoption. I mean, should we throw out paperbacks because we can use Kindles instead? Well, no....

        You're conflating technological introduction with necessitation of the mutual exclusivity of its adoption. I mean, should we throw out paperbacks because we can use Kindles instead? Well, no. Also, sometimes I prefer to roast marshmallows rather than heat them in the microwave.

        People keep complaining, and usually the final hold outs are the loudest (and least relevant, mind you), but everyone else moves on.

        You're leaving out why people are complaining. The root complaint isn't about wireless charging, so much as it is losing the option to charge phones by wire. Same goes for wireless/wired earbuds. New technologies experience growing pains, a fact internalized by pretty much everyone. So, at the time of introduction, having no fallback available seems like a bad move, especially when it's just a port or two on a phone, but who's to say?

        I will say that over a decade before Tesla, Toyota unveiled the Prius—a hybrid electric vehicle that people buy in droves to this day. That suggests to me that people aren't against the future, so much as they're for reasonable transition periods. Fortunately the market will continue to accommodate them and those bearing less risk aversion. So I feature there will be smartphones made with ports for at least another decade, it's just that they may not be iPhones.

        6 votes
        1. [7]
          emdash
          Link Parent
          The same could be said for floppy disk drives, or CD-ROM players in laptops. Those were removed as options too. People lamented the loss at the time, but the world moved on and the people who used...

          The same could be said for floppy disk drives, or CD-ROM players in laptops. Those were removed as options too. People lamented the loss at the time, but the world moved on and the people who used those technologies had their influence replaced by a younger generation who experienced the technologies that came afterward.

          We're already at a point where a lot of consumers are either in two brackets (that aren't necessarily mutually exclusive): they've either adopted wireless earphones, or they don't care about the loss of the headphone jack. The proportion of users in these buckets, out of all smartphone users, will continue to rise.

          I suspect Tildes, being somewhat of a more tech-oriented community, experiences more "diehards" who aren't in those buckets, but have an outwardly louder voice that appears strong but for the most part represents a small (but vocal) minority.

          2 votes
          1. [6]
            Akir
            Link Parent
            Who cares if it's just a small number of complainers if this hurts what they want to do with their phones? Your statement comes across as a polite way of saying "I don't care about what these...

            Who cares if it's just a small number of complainers if this hurts what they want to do with their phones? Your statement comes across as a polite way of saying "I don't care about what these people think", which isn't a polite thing to say.

            From my perspective, the biggest problem with this is that it takes away the ability to attach devices to them. To use your CD example, sure laptop manufacturers aren't including internal optical drives anymore, but you still have the option of connecting an external one.

            I dabble with music, and I use my phone as a DAW on the go. One of the things that makes this possible is that I can plug in MIDI devices. Without a port, I can't do that anymore. Sure, there is a way to transport MIDI over a network, but it's far more complex, has a number of downsides, and simply isn't a real option on any hardware I own. I would need to purchase another device to use as a bridge, and I have not yet seen any MIDI WiFi bridges anywhere.

            (Thankfully this doesn't actually affect me as I am neither an iPhone user nor a competent composer)

            5 votes
            1. [5]
              emdash
              Link Parent
              Exactly! But it's not me saying this: it's the entire smartphone market & demographic, and I don't mean it in an impolite manner, I mean it as a brutal truth. Unfortunately for people who like...

              Your statement comes across as a polite way of saying "I don't care about what these people think", which isn't a polite thing to say.

              Exactly! But it's not me saying this: it's the entire smartphone market & demographic, and I don't mean it in an impolite manner, I mean it as a brutal truth. Unfortunately for people who like 3.5mm headphone jacks, their opinion is indeed now irrelevant. It has become and will continue to be an increasingly niche port on smartphones.

              1 vote
              1. [4]
                Akir
                Link Parent
                But is it really irrelevant? So far the only phone manufacturer who has actually committed to killing the 3.5mm jack is Apple, and even then it's only on their phones. They still offer it on some...

                But is it really irrelevant? So far the only phone manufacturer who has actually committed to killing the 3.5mm jack is Apple, and even then it's only on their phones. They still offer it on some iPads and on all of their computers. Is there a reason why it's irrelevant for phones and not other devices?

                4 votes
                1. [3]
                  emdash
                  Link Parent
                  Well, I'm talking about the 3.5mm port on smartphones here, as I mentioned. I'm excluding tablets and computers here because there are uses for 3.5mm on those machines. Smartphones? Not as much....

                  Well, I'm talking about the 3.5mm port on smartphones here, as I mentioned. I'm excluding tablets and computers here because there are uses for 3.5mm on those machines. Smartphones? Not as much.

                  What do you mean by "actually committed" to removing the 3.5mm port? Google removed the headphone jack on their Pixel 3 & 4 phones (sure, it's on the Pixel 3A), Samsung's Galaxy Note 10 doesn't have one, and there are rumours the S11 won't either, OnePlus hasn't included a headphone jack on the 7T or 7T Pro, so err... who's left that's actually relevant? LG? Sure. Relevant is more questionable though.

                  And yes, some of these manufacturers include the port on some of their phones, but not others. At least Apple's consistent about it.

                  1 vote
                  1. Grzmot
                    Link Parent
                    The fact that manufacturers are omitting the port on expensive phones but keeping them on mid to low-range phones show that they are not doing for innovation or to use the space better (in their...

                    The fact that manufacturers are omitting the port on expensive phones but keeping them on mid to low-range phones show that they are not doing for innovation or to use the space better (in their opinion), but because they know that people who can afford EUR 1000+ phones can afford good wireless headphones, which start somewhere in the EUR 200 range.

                    Samsung actually produces phones which have the headphone jack, so it's not fair to put them on a list comitted to eradicating it from phones. Also not listed are the miriad of phones released by Chinese companies like Xiamoi and Oppo and their dozens of subsidiaries. In all of those phones, the existence of the jack is solely determined by price.

                    5 votes
                  2. Akir
                    Link Parent
                    I fail to see how a headphone jack is more relavent on computers than they are on phones. Heck, it might be more relavent on computers than on phones. Phones have decent DACs where computers...

                    I fail to see how a headphone jack is more relavent on computers than they are on phones. Heck, it might be more relavent on computers than on phones. Phones have decent DACs where computers typically do not. But at that point we are going into audiophile territory.

                    I'm not sure how to react to the rest of your comment, honestly. The fact that the other manufacturers are still making phones with headphone jacks is clearly because they are relavent still. After all, designing a phone without the feature will save a few thousands in development costs. Beyond that, I am sure you are aware that flagship phones are not the entire market. There's more than five phone manufacturers as well.

                    1 vote
      4. [4]
        BuckeyeSundae
        Link Parent
        I think the headphone example here is interesting. I resented Apple not for switching to push for a wireless/bluetooth headphone, but because they charge $120 for any form of ear-wear at all,...

        I think the headphone example here is interesting. I resented Apple not for switching to push for a wireless/bluetooth headphone, but because they charge $120 for any form of ear-wear at all, including the old wired versions of headphones. Third party vendors trying to still sell the "new" lightning wired headphones were peddling hot garbage that was functionally unwearable, so there was a massive pain point that came with upgrading the iPhone past the headphone jack.

        So in a very real sense, the company forced a degradation of the quality of wired headphones at the same time as it pushed people toward the new version, and they nickle and dimed every possible part of the journey.

        Personally, wireless charging is not a heavy ask to me. But taking away the headphones I liked and replacing them with hot garbage just because they weren't fitting your current business model? I don't cotton to that shit.

        5 votes
        1. [3]
          zlsa
          Link Parent
          I don't know how the prices have changed over time, but I got a headphone adapter and a set of Lightning earphones with my iPhone 8+. Apple is currently selling Lightning and 3.5mm earphones, each...

          I don't know how the prices have changed over time, but I got a headphone adapter and a set of Lightning earphones with my iPhone 8+. Apple is currently selling Lightning and 3.5mm earphones, each priced at $29.

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            BuckeyeSundae
            Link Parent
            Oh the 3.5mm earphones are dirt cheap. But the lightning headphones available in the store were stupid expensive when I was in upgrade mode a year or two ago. Especially, heaven forbid, you try to...

            Oh the 3.5mm earphones are dirt cheap. But the lightning headphones available in the store were stupid expensive when I was in upgrade mode a year or two ago. Especially, heaven forbid, you try to get them from an apple store directly.

            1 vote
            1. zlsa
              Link Parent
              I can't find any source for them being expensive? Even this article written when the iPhone 7 series was released names the $29 price point. (They might have been more expensive in other regions;...

              I can't find any source for them being expensive? Even this article written when the iPhone 7 series was released names the $29 price point. (They might have been more expensive in other regions; but that's the US price.)

              1 vote
      5. envy
        Link Parent
        People feel the loss of something more acutely than the gain of something. Except this sounds like a fairly significant loss. No wired headphones. No fast charging. No fast syncing. No car play....

        People feel the loss of something more acutely than the gain of something.

        Except this sounds like a fairly significant loss. No wired headphones. No fast charging. No fast syncing. No car play. No extended battery case.

        3 votes
    2. [18]
      vakieh
      Link Parent
      What on earth? I would take having to plug 17 cables in over the risk of things just... not charging. This seems crazy to me.

      On the other hand, none of those things are as much of a pain as actually having to plug a cable in

      What on earth? I would take having to plug 17 cables in over the risk of things just... not charging. This seems crazy to me.

      20 votes
      1. [15]
        emdash
        Link Parent
        Different strokes, I guess. I have my wireless charger on my bedside table next to me, and I agree with @NaraVara on this. The last thing I want to do before I fall asleep is fumble around with a...

        Different strokes, I guess. I have my wireless charger on my bedside table next to me, and I agree with @NaraVara on this. The last thing I want to do before I fall asleep is fumble around with a lightning connector and my phone. I drop it onto my charger, the light turns green, and it charges. Simple. In the 1% of times I don't hit the sweet spot, I nudge it slightly and it works.

        If it didn't charge for some reason, I'm at home for 30 minutes in the morning anyway, which is enough to give it a top up before I head out.

        6 votes
        1. [14]
          ThatFanficGuy
          Link Parent
          The problem is, you're gonna have to pay something like $299 to have the wireless charger replaced in case it has any malfunction. With a cable backup option, at least you trade the gross...

          The problem is, you're gonna have to pay something like $299 to have the wireless charger replaced in case it has any malfunction. With a cable backup option, at least you trade the gross indecency of having to find the right port for the charger for being able to use the damn thing.

          8 votes
          1. [4]
            Weldawadyathink
            Link Parent
            Are you talking about the coils in the phone? Have you ever actually had those break after the first few years of wireless charging? Also, those coils are not a wear item, a cable is.

            Are you talking about the coils in the phone? Have you ever actually had those break after the first few years of wireless charging? Also, those coils are not a wear item, a cable is.

            6 votes
            1. [3]
              ThatFanficGuy
              Link Parent
              I have a pre-owned iPhone 5c that my sister gifted me a couple of years ago. Needless to say, it contains no wireless charging mechanism. With it, I got the native cable that's already been...

              I have a pre-owned iPhone 5c that my sister gifted me a couple of years ago. Needless to say, it contains no wireless charging mechanism.

              With it, I got the native cable that's already been damaged at the base. While I assume the source of the damage is vigorous usage, the reason it's been damaged the way it has been was, in fact, the weaker circular construction.

              I've since replaced the cable with one of the third-party-produced ones – a model that has a wide base. It never tangles, no matter how often I take it with me, and it shows to sign of damage after a few months of stable usage.

              I was only able to replace the cable with a third-party analog because it's as external as it's meant to be.

              I used to have an issue with the screen where it would act up on its own, simulating touch events at a certain point of the screen without my intervention. I went to the service center to see how it could be fixed. The price was quite a bit beyond what I could afford, even with my low spending standards for things like repairing the things I use every day.

              The issue disappeared eventually, and I think I know why it happened in the first place, but the fact that I have very little chance to repair – let alone replace – something so expensive on my own because of Apple's anti-disassembly policies does not sit well with me. If I had the embedded wireless charging mechanism damaged – even if nothing else would require repairing – I imagine I'd have to pay beyond what I could afford to fix it, too.

              Changing the cable, on the other hand, was of very little risk indeed.

              There was a time where you could repair your own PC against most problems – even ones requiring soldering – because alongside it came a highly-detailed instruction preparing the user to take care of their very expensive machine. Now's not that time, and that bothers me.

              6 votes
              1. [2]
                Weldawadyathink
                Link Parent
                I am all for right to repair, but how would a charging coil get damaged? The only way I can imagine is to shatter the back glass of a phone and somehow puncture it to even come in contact with the...

                I am all for right to repair, but how would a charging coil get damaged? The only way I can imagine is to shatter the back glass of a phone and somehow puncture it to even come in contact with the coils. They are not a wear item at all. If you actually did damage the coils physically, you probably have to replace the back glass anyway. Depending on how the phone is designed, you likely won't have to do much more than that. That likely won't cost much more than a normal back glass repair.

                Also, I have heard good things about lightning, and I have had good experiences with usb c, but I had multiple phones where the micro usb failed. That is literally not possible with wireless charging.

                7 votes
                1. ThatFanficGuy
                  Link Parent
                  I dunno, and I don't care. I equally don't care about a particular type of port that a smartphone uses, in this case. What concerns me is what appears to be a failure in system design around this...

                  how would a charging coil get damaged?

                  I dunno, and I don't care. I equally don't care about a particular type of port that a smartphone uses, in this case.

                  What concerns me is what appears to be a failure in system design around this feature: specifically the part where the user ends up having less control over their device, in a way they likely don't understand, for reasons that aren't readily obvious.

                  2 votes
          2. [4]
            zlsa
            Link Parent
            Are you referring to the phone-side coil, or the outside charging coil? The phone coil shouldn't ever fail, since it's inside the phone and isn't worn down through use (as a physical connector...

            The problem is, you're gonna have to pay something like $299 to have the wireless charger replaced in case it has any malfunction.

            Are you referring to the phone-side coil, or the outside charging coil? The phone coil shouldn't ever fail, since it's inside the phone and isn't worn down through use (as a physical connector would be.) And the external chargers can be replaced very cheaply if needed (this one is only $10, and supports 10W charging.)

            3 votes
            1. [3]
              ThatFanficGuy
              Link Parent
              See my another comment in this subthread.

              See my another comment in this subthread.

              1. [2]
                stu2b50
                Link Parent
                Having read it, I feel like the concern is more emotional than practical. It's a bad "feeling" to have power taken away, for something that you use to be able to repair yourself be engineered to...

                Having read it, I feel like the concern is more emotional than practical. It's a bad "feeling" to have power taken away, for something that you use to be able to repair yourself be engineered to the point where it's too much for a hobbyist to fix themselves.

                However, practically the charging coils are not going to be damaged bar catastrophic damage to the phone. So it's really better, in that while you can't repair it, now you don't have to.

                It's like how planes are significantly safer than cars, however for some it can be difficult to accept the loss of control of your own fate. But statistically, and in practice, it's much safer.

                6 votes
                1. ThatFanficGuy
                  Link Parent
                  So, my aunt is terrified of flying planes. It started about fifteen years ago, when she flew home. The plane hit a particularly-harsh turbulence area, and it scared the wits out of her so...

                  So, my aunt is terrified of flying planes. It started about fifteen years ago, when she flew home. The plane hit a particularly-harsh turbulence area, and it scared the wits out of her so thorougly she can only handle a flight after a few shots of strong alcohol.

                  She could choose to go by train, expensive as it still is – but she can't, 'cause she's a high-ranking municipality official who can't afford to spend more on a visit than her leave can offer.

                  She could choose to go by car – but nope, same reasons.

                  And not going is not an option 'cause she's one of the few people I know who actually enjoys living. Refusing to travel would be counter to her very essence.

                  I've never tried it, 'cause I'm not an asshole, but I suspect that no amount of rationalization could persuade her out of that deep-seated fear.

                  'cause here's the thing. Human beings have needs beyond pragmatic problem-solving: shelter, safety, acceptance, meaning – and, underlying them all, control. It's not a feeling that's nice to have: it's a need describing our core nature.

                  I dunno about you, but whenever someone – or something undermines mine – I feel it keenly, and if I feel it, everybody else does, too: this kind of experience is universal. It may not be a sharp sting for you, but you feel it, even if you don't recognize it as such.

                  So yes, my concern is emotional – but saying that it is emotional rather than practical is reductive, because it diminishes the acute connection between how we feel and how we act. I'd prefer to use a piece of hardware that allows me to control how it behaves in meaningful ways over a piece of hardware that locks me in to a set of parameters that don't make me comfortable to use it.

                  There's no "statistically" and "in practice" for things that people don't trust.

                  2 votes
          3. Spel
            Link Parent
            Was this ever a real problem when there wasn't any wireless charging though? It's expensive to exchange the charging port too and it's certainly more likely to break than the wireless charging...

            Was this ever a real problem when there wasn't any wireless charging though? It's expensive to exchange the charging port too and it's certainly more likely to break than the wireless charging coils. I've personally at least never really been particularly worried about the charging port breaking in my phone, my computer, or really any other electronic device I've used. It's been fine for many decades before this short moment in time where we have both wireless and wired options.

            3 votes
          4. [3]
            emdash
            Link Parent
            That's partially due to the lack of ubiquity of wireless chargers at the moment, which is solved with inertia, investment, and time as I've outlined in my other comment. Furthermore, that's one...

            That's partially due to the lack of ubiquity of wireless chargers at the moment, which is solved with inertia, investment, and time as I've outlined in my other comment. Furthermore, that's one hell of an expensive wireless charger! I think I paid about $70 for my Belkin Premium Edition 7.5W charging mat. Alternatives without the polished finish run for half that price.

            2 votes
            1. [2]
              ThatFanficGuy
              Link Parent
              I was talking about the part of the charging mechanism that's embedded with the phone.

              I was talking about the part of the charging mechanism that's embedded with the phone.

              1. emdash
                Link Parent
                Ah, misread your comment. Apologies!

                Ah, misread your comment. Apologies!

                1 vote
          5. babypuncher
            Link Parent
            Wireless chargers are like $10 on Amazon. I've never heard of the coils in a phone needing to be replaced in the 10 years the standard has been in use. They are certainly not going to see as much...

            Wireless chargers are like $10 on Amazon.

            I've never heard of the coils in a phone needing to be replaced in the 10 years the standard has been in use. They are certainly not going to see as much wear and tear as a physical port that regularly has things inserted in it and tugged on. I've had lots of devices end up with broken USB ports that were a bitch to repair.

            2 votes
      2. Parliament
        Link Parent
        I always wished they would do magnetic-end charging cables with the iphone like they do for laptops. Also... the battery better be incredible in a fully wireless phone because using it while it's...

        I always wished they would do magnetic-end charging cables with the iphone like they do for laptops. Also... the battery better be incredible in a fully wireless phone because using it while it's charging is a daily occurrence for me.

        5 votes
      3. NaraVara
        Link Parent
        My phone's battery is good enough now that I can actually go for a day and a half between charges, so even if it doesn't charge overnight it's usually still got some juice in the morning and gets...

        My phone's battery is good enough now that I can actually go for a day and a half between charges, so even if it doesn't charge overnight it's usually still got some juice in the morning and gets charged while I'm getting ready. If I actually am worried about it charging I obviously check and make double-plus sure it's centered on the sweet spot. I think of the 2 times the "oops, it didn't actually charge" problem happened for me, I was drunk when I went to bed once and my dog had bumped my end table really hard the other time. If it has been plugged in, the dog probably would have tromped across the cable and sent the phone careening.

        And it's not like I have a 100% hit rate charging by cable either. Usually from not plugging the phone in deep enough because there is a bunch of pocket-lint in the port or from the wall socket being loose and the power brick slipping out. It's just easier to blame user error on those because there is a physical thing failing versus with wireless charging where it seems like a design flaw in the tech.

    3. [2]
      Comment removed by site admin
      Link Parent
      1. Deimos
        Link Parent
        Please don't post a comment if its only purpose is to be condescending. That contributes nothing to a discussion and just makes it likely to turn into a fight.

        Please don't post a comment if its only purpose is to be condescending. That contributes nothing to a discussion and just makes it likely to turn into a fight.

        13 votes
  3. [10]
    Keegan
    Link
    How are you supposed to charge your phone when not at home? Do you have to carry a charging pad with you? This is stupid.

    How are you supposed to charge your phone when not at home? Do you have to carry a charging pad with you? This is stupid.

    8 votes
    1. [8]
      emdash
      Link Parent
      This exact same logic can be applied to electric cars about 5 years ago. Advancement is a puck, sliding across the ice, that takes time to reach its destination. You can't just stop the puck and...

      This exact same logic can be applied to electric cars about 5 years ago.

      How are you supposed to charge your car when you're not at home. Do you have to carry your own charging cable with you? This is stupid.

      Advancement is a puck, sliding across the ice, that takes time to reach its destination. You can't just stop the puck and say "this is dumb!" while ignoring the direction and trajectory the puck is taking (towards incremental improvement).

      7 votes
      1. [3]
        Keegan
        Link Parent
        Electric cars still are useless in some areas that haven't adopted stations and for longer distance travel, unless gas stations or rest stops put in electric charging stations, which is rare from...

        Electric cars still are useless in some areas that haven't adopted stations and for longer distance travel, unless gas stations or rest stops put in electric charging stations, which is rare from my experience. I expect the same scenario to exist with portless phones.

        If business don't get whole room wireless charging or get charging pads, people will have to lug around charging pads and have to awkwardly use the phone while the pad is on their lap, within distance of a wall socket, if they run out of battery. It adds an extra step to the puzzle that will be inconvenient. There is a good reason people choose to bring their charging cord instead of their charging pad when traveling.

        Also, if this is picked up by other brands (it will since it is Apple), I expect there to be a big mess of different standards for how to wireless charge, which will mean even if a place has wireless charging, it is possible your phone might not be able to use it.

        I really can't see any benefit to wireless charging IMO. It's an advancement in technology, but a huge setback for commute and travel.

        9 votes
        1. [2]
          DrStone
          Link Parent
          People already have to carry a usb cable and a usb-to-wall-socket adapter (usb power ports aren't a given) and sit within distance of a wall socket, assuming you can find one available. I can...

          people will have to lug around charging pads and have to awkwardly use the phone while the pad is on their lap, within distance of a wall socket, if they run out of battery

          People already have to carry a usb cable and a usb-to-wall-socket adapter (usb power ports aren't a given) and sit within distance of a wall socket, assuming you can find one available. I can already find 2.37" x 2.37" x 0.8" Qi charging pads on amazon, which could fit in a pocket and very easily in a bag. IIRC the 5W usb cube with prongs is around 1" x 1" x 1.75".

          I expect there to be a big mess of different standards for how to wireless charge, which will mean even if a place has wireless charging, it is possible your phone might not be able to use it.

          The trend is toward the Qi open standard developed by the Wireless Power Consortium. According to the Qi wiki, Qi has already beat out several competing standards and has serious momentum; manufacturers working with the standard include Apple, Asus, Google, HTC, Huawei, LG Electronics, Motorola Mobility, Nokia, Samsung, BlackBerry, Xiaomi, and Sony - more or less all of the big names.

          5 votes
          1. Keegan
            Link Parent
            Yes but it is weird to have to hold it to the pad without something attaching it. I do suppose a case with a battery pack would solve the issues I have with it too. Fair enough about Qi. I didn't...

            Yes but it is weird to have to hold it to the pad without something attaching it. I do suppose a case with a battery pack would solve the issues I have with it too.

            Fair enough about Qi. I didn't realize Huawei and Xiaomi (the usual suspects for copying Apple blatantly) used it.

      2. [4]
        AugustusFerdinand
        Link Parent
        Removal of one system (a cable, but not specifically Apple's since they all seem to be crap) that is incredibly more robust and reliable for another that provides near zero benefit is not...

        Removal of one system (a cable, but not specifically Apple's since they all seem to be crap) that is incredibly more robust and reliable for another that provides near zero benefit is not "incremental improvement".

        2 votes
        1. [3]
          emdash
          Link Parent
          You've provided zero evidence for both of your claims: that cables are more robust and reliable, and that wireless charging has zero benefit.

          You've provided zero evidence for both of your claims: that cables are more robust and reliable, and that wireless charging has zero benefit.

          1 vote
          1. [2]
            AugustusFerdinand
            Link Parent
            A set of wires in a sheath is inherently, and obviously, more reliable and robust than something that is exponentially more complicated in both form, function, parameters, and programming. Just as...

            A set of wires in a sheath is inherently, and obviously, more reliable and robust than something that is exponentially more complicated in both form, function, parameters, and programming. Just as a lamp cord is more robust and reliable than a computer; plain, simple, and without need for explanation of such to the vast majority.

            I'll clarify the zero benefit statement in case you didn't catch it. Zero benefit over a simple cable.

            Now feel free to provide evidence of your claim that wireless charging is an improvement.

            2 votes
            1. emdash
              Link Parent
              Well, in that case, "reliable" and "robust" become meaningless metrics, as I'd (and others, as another comment chain in this thread demonstrates) expect failures for each mechanism to be on the...

              Well, in that case, "reliable" and "robust" become meaningless metrics, as I'd (and others, as another comment chain in this thread demonstrates) expect failures for each mechanism to be on the order of "never". That is, over the life of the product, I would expect neither a cord or a wireless charging mat to break. They're both solid state technologies and consequently have insane SLAs that make discussions around reliability moot.

              I've already discussed why wireless charging is an improvement here. But to restate in case you didn't catch it: it's a significant improvement in HI & ergonomics due to the lack of fiddling with cables, and a relatively large target areas of modern wireless chargers.

              1 vote
    2. envy
      Link Parent
      Oooooh. Good point.

      Oooooh. Good point.

      2 votes
  4. [2]
    babypuncher
    Link
    I predict a lot of fire and brimstone from many users at first. Then other manufacturers will slowly start doing the same thing. Within a few years people will be laughing about how phones used to...

    I predict a lot of fire and brimstone from many users at first. Then other manufacturers will slowly start doing the same thing. Within a few years people will be laughing about how phones used to have unnecessary ports on them.

    7 votes
    1. j3n
      Link Parent
      Just like with headphone jacks? Some of us are still unhappy about that (I'm sticking with my iPhone 6s+ until it fails in some catastrophic way that I can't repair). Just because everyone gives...

      Just like with headphone jacks? Some of us are still unhappy about that (I'm sticking with my iPhone 6s+ until it fails in some catastrophic way that I can't repair). Just because everyone gives up and stops talking about it because we're powerless to change things doesn't mean that the situation isn't just as stupid as it was when it was new and people were talking about it.

      7 votes
  5. [9]
    moocow1452
    Link
    Pour one out for the third party cable manufacturers. Again.

    Pour one out for the third party cable manufacturers. Again.

    6 votes
    1. [8]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      Not really. They'll just switch to making inductive charger cables.

      Not really. They'll just switch to making inductive charger cables.

      5 votes
      1. [7]
        moocow1452
        Link Parent
        It's another standard for the worlds single most popular phone being depreciated cause Apple felt like it, so they're probably going to have to figure out what they're doing with their current...

        It's another standard for the worlds single most popular phone being depreciated cause Apple felt like it, so they're probably going to have to figure out what they're doing with their current inventory at least.

        3 votes
        1. [4]
          NaraVara
          Link Parent
          The lightning connector was introduced in 2012. And they're still going to be used in iPads and old phones for at least another several years after they introduce the new phone. So if they release...

          The lightning connector was introduced in 2012. And they're still going to be used in iPads and old phones for at least another several years after they introduce the new phone. So if they release the first of these phones in 2021, we're talking about a standard Apple will have supported for nearly a decade before starting to deprecate it. How long do you expect them to linger along with obsolete tech?

          What' more, almost all their most recent devices either don't use it (iPads Pro) or offer wireless charging (AirPods, all iPhones for the past 2 years). So it's entirely possible that big chunks of new users will have already transitioned to wireless charging for a majority of their things. It's not even like Android where they're using a USB standard, so it's not as if you're losing out on how you charge your other devices. The only things I charge with lightning at this point are my BeatsX headphones and my second generation iPad Air, both of which will surely have gone kaput by the time this phone comes out. (Actually the iPad can probably limp along forever if I spend $80 on getting the batter serviced, but why spend $80 on an old iPad when I can have a new shiny for like, 5 times that?)

          5 votes
          1. [3]
            AugustusFerdinand
            Link Parent
            What exactly is obsolete about a the generally robust and reliable cable and how is wireless charging an improvement upon that?

            obsolete tech

            What exactly is obsolete about a the generally robust and reliable cable and how is wireless charging an improvement upon that?

            2 votes
            1. [2]
              NaraVara
              Link Parent
              It’s not really that robust, it’s prone to breaking, and cables frequently get snagged on people and animals leading to phones being thrown off tables.

              It’s not really that robust, it’s prone to breaking, and cables frequently get snagged on people and animals leading to phones being thrown off tables.

              1 vote
              1. AugustusFerdinand
                Link Parent
                Apple's cables aren't robust, but cables themselves by just about anyone else are. Clumsiness and lack of cable management isn't solved by wireless charging.

                Apple's cables aren't robust, but cables themselves by just about anyone else are. Clumsiness and lack of cable management isn't solved by wireless charging.

                2 votes
        2. emdash
          Link Parent
          I hate to say it, but this comment reads straight out of the iPhone 5-era when Apple deprecated the 30-pin connector. You can't honestly be expecting they'd still be utilizing that standard now,...

          I hate to say it, but this comment reads straight out of the iPhone 5-era when Apple deprecated the 30-pin connector. You can't honestly be expecting they'd still be utilizing that standard now, surely? Technology evolves, that's kind of what's makes it so great. Occasionally that necessitates a change in the end-user product. People deal with it.

          3 votes
        3. babypuncher
          Link Parent
          This would be Apple moving from a proprietary standard (Lightning ports) to an open standard (Qi).

          This would be Apple moving from a proprietary standard (Lightning ports) to an open standard (Qi).

          3 votes
  6. [2]
    emdash
    Link
    On a completely different note: It'll be super interesting to see where Apple decide to locate their diagnostics port for an "all-wireless" iPhone. There's no way they'll produce an iPhone without...

    On a completely different note: It'll be super interesting to see where Apple decide to locate their diagnostics port for an "all-wireless" iPhone. There's no way they'll produce an iPhone without one. On the Apple Watch, the port is accessible through one of the wrist band slots, hidden just out of view. On Apple TV, the Ethernet port doubles as a surreptitious lightning connector!

    My expectation is that they'll create a custom connector to plug into a port embedded in a faux microphone or speaker grille hole, that self-aligns via a magnetic latching mechanism.

    4 votes
    1. cptcobalt
      Link Parent
      So, there's rumblings of a dedicated camera button on iOS devices next year because the smart battery cases have a new dedicated camera button. My total spacebet is that this new button will be a...

      So, there's rumblings of a dedicated camera button on iOS devices next year because the smart battery cases have a new dedicated camera button. My total spacebet is that this new button will be a semi-false button that'll be a bit larger, flush with the device frame, and somehow removable to reveal the debug port.

      4 votes
  7. [7]
    mrbig
    (edited )
    Link
    Most of my smartphones have been iPhones, and I have one now. I hate it. The reason I keep using them is that I don't have much money and my "rich" friend gives me her old ones for free. The...

    Most of my smartphones have been iPhones, and I have one now. I hate it. The reason I keep using them is that I don't have much money and my "rich" friend gives me her old ones for free.

    The iPhone doesn't feel like something I own. I cannot load it with videos and mp3s. I don't even know how to manage its files. Transferring data to my Linux computer only works after multiple tries, if ever. Everything for the iPhone has to be specific (which usually means more expensive): charges, batteries, screens, even fucking screws! To open an iPhone one needs to purchase tools specific for it. And it is not meant to be repaired...

    Android phones, on the other hand, are entirely accessible. When I plug an Android phone on my computer, it automatically behaves like flash drive. I can easily transfer all my files back and forth. This is very important because nowadays smartphones can store dozens of gigabytes, and I want my file operations to be fast. Getting everything through Dropbox is slow and prone to errors and interruptions (the Internet here is slow and unreliable).

    With Android, you're free to use your phone the way you want. Apple products, on the other hand, lock you up in their little bubble. I suppose this is not so bad if you live in the US and has direct access to Apple services that are priced in your currency. But around here shipping, import taxes and the difference in currency value make the iPhone ridiculously expensive.

    4 votes
    1. [4]
      jwong
      Link Parent
      What issues do you have with loading mp3s and videos onto your iphone? Streaming services don't have the kind of music I want to listen to, so I exclusively load my own MP3s, and have been for...

      What issues do you have with loading mp3s and videos onto your iphone? Streaming services don't have the kind of music I want to listen to, so I exclusively load my own MP3s, and have been for years. I'm using an iPhone X right now.

      I don't think flagship, modern Android phones fare any better in terms of reliability. Things are trending towards thinner and less repairable, which sucks in one aspect. But I've only had one accident this year after 20 years of owning cellphones that required me to repair, and because I purchased an extended warranty, it was only $29USD to repair the screen.

      4 votes
      1. [2]
        mrbig
        Link Parent
        AFAIK the iPhone file system is not open for me at all. Maybe I could use iTunes to send files to it? I don't think so. I use Linux. It would be cumbersome anyway. I have friends who watch local...

        AFAIK the iPhone file system is not open for me at all. Maybe I could use iTunes to send files to it? I don't think so. I use Linux. It would be cumbersome anyway. I have friends who watch local TV shows they downloaded and passed to Android with a cheap USB cable. Why use the internet to transfer files from a machine that is in front of me? Wireless is fine for some things, but not everything.

        Besides: Apple products are meant to work with Apple products.

        $29USD is kinda reasonable, but I live in Brazil. Everything Apple comes with a steep price increase around here.

        2 votes
        1. jwong
          Link Parent
          It's not quite that open yet, but trending in that direction. I know for Ubuntu there's Libimobiledevice w/ Rhythmbox for music syncing/library management. Recently IOS13 added the ability for the...

          It's not quite that open yet, but trending in that direction.

          I know for Ubuntu there's Libimobiledevice w/ Rhythmbox for music syncing/library management.

          Recently IOS13 added the ability for the Files application to use mass storage devices on the iPad (Pro only?). I think with that you'd be able transfer videos and watch them. I haven't gotten to try it myself, as I don't really have the urge to watch shows on such a small device.

          1 vote
      2. mrbig
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        That may be true, but at least with Android I have dozens of options. There will always be a model that fulfills my requirements. I also have no interest in purchasing flagship devices. My usage...

        I don't think flagship, modern Android phones fare any better in terms of reliability

        That may be true, but at least with Android I have dozens of options. There will always be a model that fulfills my requirements.

        I also have no interest in purchasing flagship devices. My usage is very basic, I don't need a super-fast processor or a lot of memory.

        1 vote
    2. [2]
      envy
      Link Parent
      I think your rich friend is fucking with you.

      Most of my smartphones have been iPhones, and I have one now. I hate it.

      my "rich" friend gives me her old ones for free.

      Transferring data to my Linux computer only works after multiple tries, if ever.

      I think your rich friend is fucking with you.

      1 vote
      1. mrbig
        Link Parent
        Nah, she's alright hahaha

        Nah, she's alright hahaha

        1 vote
  8. [2]
    ThisIsMyTildesLogin
    Link
    This sounds like something Apple would do. You'll probably have to pay extra for the wireless charger too. And, of course, Android phone makers will copy this, just like they've done with removing...

    This sounds like something Apple would do. You'll probably have to pay extra for the wireless charger too. And, of course, Android phone makers will copy this, just like they've done with removing the headphone jacks and having the hideous notches.

    1 vote
    1. zlsa
      Link Parent
      Apple's devices (with the exception of the Watch) use industry-standard Qi charging pads, which can be bought on Amazon for $10.

      Apple's devices (with the exception of the Watch) use industry-standard Qi charging pads, which can be bought on Amazon for $10.

      3 votes
  9. [8]
    JumboDS64
    Link
    Next they'll be removing the camera — the phone now senses light via its touchscreen

    Next they'll be removing the camera — the phone now senses light via its touchscreen

    2 votes
    1. [4]
      Keegan
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Please label my comment as joke btw.

      First they came for the headphone jack, and I did not speak out—because I hate untangling earbuds.

      Then they came for the charging port, and I did not speak out— because I like wireless charging.

      Then they came for the camera, and I did not speak out—because I prefer to paint things I find interesting.

      Then they came for the screen—and at that point I was glad they took it because my phone was a brick.

      Please label my comment as joke btw.

      6 votes
      1. [2]
        envy
        Link Parent
        This seems inevitable. I'm not talking about Futurama's eyephone, but simply something similar to Google Glass.

        Then they came for the screen—and at that point I was glad they took it because my phone was a brick.

        This seems inevitable. I'm not talking about Futurama's eyephone, but simply something similar to Google Glass.

        2 votes
        1. mrbig
          Link Parent
          I want a neural interface.

          I want a neural interface.

    2. [2]
      ThatFanficGuy
      Link Parent
      You know, I've been raving about 3.5mm port disappearing from flagship phones, and I'm less than satisfied about this portless thing, but... That would be fucking awesome, would it not? I get a...

      You know, I've been raving about 3.5mm port disappearing from flagship phones, and I'm less than satisfied about this portless thing, but...

      That would be fucking awesome, would it not?

      I get a sense that taking a selfie with the whole screen would somehow be of great benefit to the quality of my selfies.

      2 votes
      1. Keegan
        Link Parent
        Tbh it would. It would solve the issue of having to look at the camera to make the photo look decent while simultaneously checking the screen to check. If I'm not mistaken the camera notch/bar was...

        Tbh it would. It would solve the issue of having to look at the camera to make the photo look decent while simultaneously checking the screen to check.

        If I'm not mistaken the camera notch/bar was already removed in one phone by putting pixels on top of it and turning them off when taking a photo. It used a different kind of glass over top of the camera so it looked weird though. This is a ways off from sensing light via the screen, but if that under-screen camera is in the dead center of the screen and they figure out how to do it without turning off pixels, it will be amazing.

        2 votes