67 votes

General Tildes feedback, questions, and so on

Things have been a little on the quiet and steady side for the last while now (which has been nice), and it's been some time since we had a thread for general questions and feedback. Feel free to use this thread to post things about the site that you're curious about, questions or suggestions you have, and so on.

@super_james was also nice enough to start this other thread today about ways to help, so this one will probably be a little more on the "specific things to help with" side.

As a couple other things from my end, I've topped everyone back up to 5 invite codes again, so you should have some available on https://tildes.net/invite if there's anyone you'd like to invite to the site (and as always, just message me if you ever need more codes).

I also posted some information the other day about donations so far and the general financial status of the site, so that might be something that you'd be interested in reading if you didn't see it already. That thread also seems to have motivated a decent number of other people to pledge to the site's Patreon or donate, so thanks to everyone that donated, I really appreciate it.

As a final thing, a couple people have asked me about the site's general activity levels lately, so I'll post some stats about that in a comment here in a little bit (so it's more easily collapsible than being in the post itself).

As always, thanks for being here!

96 comments

  1. [14]
    Archimedes Link
    I had my first experience receiving an "Exemplary" label this week. I know it's not a super new feature, but I think it's a great "super upvote" thing I've always wanted to be able to give for...

    I had my first experience receiving an "Exemplary" label this week. I know it's not a super new feature, but I think it's a great "super upvote" thing I've always wanted to be able to give for outstanding contributions. The one per 8-hour limit seems like a good choice.

    Related to that, I wanted to ask:

    What is the current status of the trust system and are there any clear ideas at this point about how votes and labels factor into that system?

    36 votes
    1. [10]
      eladnarra Link Parent
      I thought that it was a cool idea when it was introduced, but it wasn't until I got a couple on a post that I really realized the value of the exemplary label. It felt good to have the work I'd...

      I thought that it was a cool idea when it was introduced, but it wasn't until I got a couple on a post that I really realized the value of the exemplary label. It felt good to have the work I'd put into the post recognized, and the addition of the "reason" was a big part of that.

      It's probably silly of me, but it made me want to contribute more and with more thought. (Not necessarily to rack up more exemplary labels, but because it reinforces the idea that those sorts of posts are valued by the community and worth writing, even if you don't get a direct reply.) I'm guessing that's the intention, so I can tell my brain "good job" for being predictable, haha.

      31 votes
      1. [8]
        frickindeal Link Parent
        I also like that there's no running count of anything, not the number of votes you've received, nor your number of Exemplary labels. There's no always-visible karma display like on reddit, so I'm...

        I also like that there's no running count of anything, not the number of votes you've received, nor your number of Exemplary labels. There's no always-visible karma display like on reddit, so I'm not constantly worried about whether a post is going to be popular in the "gets a lot of votes" kind of way—not that I was worried about it after 12 years, but still. Sure, we can keep a general mental image of whether our comments "do well" here, but that's it, and I'm liking it.

        23 votes
        1. eladnarra Link Parent
          I've not used Reddit regularly, so I only really got introduced to the concept of karma during early meta discussions here on Tildes (many of which delved into why it wasn't a feature that would...

          I've not used Reddit regularly, so I only really got introduced to the concept of karma during early meta discussions here on Tildes (many of which delved into why it wasn't a feature that would be implemented). It does sound like it could become a bit stressful, or reward unwanted behaviors.

          I do find myself paying attention to vote tallies for my individual comments on Tildes, but it's more of a curiosity thing, I think. "Oh, neat, this resonated with 14 people in some way." I guess sometimes if a comment doesn't do "well" I can feel disappointed, but... I don't know. It doesn't feel particularly bad, not in the same way that I can imagine being downvoted to hell can feel.

          17 votes
        2. [2]
          Archimedes Link Parent
          Same. Even though I sometimes like accumulating points on sites like Stack Overflow, the fact that there is no karma/reputation/trust score total visible anywhere means that Tildes is less likely...

          Same. Even though I sometimes like accumulating points on sites like Stack Overflow, the fact that there is no karma/reputation/trust score total visible anywhere means that Tildes is less likely to fall prey to Goodhart's Law where people seek points for their own sake and the metric becomes the target.

          12 votes
          1. Amarok Link Parent
            I need a master list of these internet laws to crib ideas from. :)

            I need a master list of these internet laws to crib ideas from. :)

            7 votes
        3. [4]
          JamesTeaKirk Link Parent
          On Reddit the upvotes and downvotes are absolutely "agree" or "disagree" buttons in practice. Voting on Tildes, while not absolutely immune from similar problems, feels much more like a "you've...

          On Reddit the upvotes and downvotes are absolutely "agree" or "disagree" buttons in practice. Voting on Tildes, while not absolutely immune from similar problems, feels much more like a "you've made an valuable addition to the discussion" button.

          10 votes
          1. [3]
            Askme_about_penguins Link Parent
            I think they're mostly used as agree/disagree. You can always tell which comment will have more votes by the popularity of that opinion amongst the site's demographics.

            Voting on Tildes, while not absolutely immune from similar problems, feels much more like a "you've made an valuable addition to the discussion" button.

            I think they're mostly used as agree/disagree. You can always tell which comment will have more votes by the popularity of that opinion amongst the site's demographics.

            5 votes
            1. JamesTeaKirk Link Parent
              I think that tends to be correct for the top 1% (pulled out-of-my ass number) of posts in terms of comment activity. The posts generating 150+ responses tend to be controversial and/or political...

              I think that tends to be correct for the top 1% (pulled out-of-my ass number) of posts in terms of comment activity. The posts generating 150+ responses tend to be controversial and/or political and the comments start to feel more like Reddit in general.

              6 votes
            2. Adys Link Parent
              So if your comment doesn't get any votes, does that mean people disagree with it? ... but wouldn't that make you right? Argh

              So if your comment doesn't get any votes, does that mean people disagree with it?

              ... but wouldn't that make you right?

              Argh

              1 vote
      2. Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
        I tend to cop a lot of flak and encounter a lot of disagreement here. It's my nature to be contrarian, and that gets reflected back at me. It was therefore very pleasing to have one of my recent...

        I tend to cop a lot of flak and encounter a lot of disagreement here. It's my nature to be contrarian, and that gets reflected back at me. It was therefore very pleasing to have one of my recent comments labelled as 'Exemplary' - and not just by one person, but by quite a few people. That was very affirming. I couldn't help having a brief Sally Field moment in response to that. :)

        I've had a couple of other comments receive 'Exemplary' labels (but only one each!), and it's always good to receive that extra little bit of positive feedback.

        6 votes
    2. [3]
      Deimos (edited ) Link Parent
      The trust system is still mostly just a vague concept, since I don't think it should be very necessary until the site gets much larger. It's something I keep in mind when I'm planning things, and...

      The trust system is still mostly just a vague concept, since I don't think it should be very necessary until the site gets much larger. It's something I keep in mind when I'm planning things, and there are some general pieces built that will be useful for it eventually, but there's not much concrete yet.

      As an example, the comment-labeling all works based on "label weight", and when a user adds a label to a comment it adds a specific amount of weight to that label. For now, everyone's weight is exactly the same so it's not any more meaningful than a simple count would be, but the ability is there to be able to give some users' labels more or less weight, and that's the sort of thing we'd want to be adjusting with the trust system in the future.

      24 votes
      1. [2]
        Tarsupin Link Parent
        Is there a link to details about the trust system? I read the mechanics, but that didn't seem to discuss it as far as I could tell. The entire reason I joined Tildes is because I've been waiting...

        Is there a link to details about the trust system? I read the mechanics, but that didn't seem to discuss it as far as I could tell. The entire reason I joined Tildes is because I've been waiting for a Reddit clone to do this.

        As far as suggestions go, I have two of importance:

        1. Please keep the invite-only, or at the very least keep a "vouch" option for users, so that people are linked to each other for the purposes of trust. If the site becomes popular, propagandists will come. And it will be nigh-impossible for them to maintain a network of untrustworthy people if their trustworthiness drops, and as a result the other people they vouched for lose voting power.

        2. There really needs to be a Fact-Checking option, or something that can clearly be marked as non-factual, or citations needed, and the post/comment should be appropriately adjusted based on this. Because a lot of trusted people DO fact-check, and their efforts should be reflected by that.

        7 votes
  2. [8]
    cain Link
    I'll keep my question pretty open ended and easy to answer. Are there any features nearing completion or ready to put on tildes in the near future? Just want to get an idea of what types of things...

    I'll keep my question pretty open ended and easy to answer.

    Are there any features nearing completion or ready to put on tildes in the near future? Just want to get an idea of what types of things I should look out for in the coming weeks.

    18 votes
    1. [4]
      Deimos Link Parent
      As the others mentioned, the "Roadmap" link in the site footer goes to this page, which is usually a decent overview of what's being worked on at the moment, or should be getting worked on soon:...

      As the others mentioned, the "Roadmap" link in the site footer goes to this page, which is usually a decent overview of what's being worked on at the moment, or should be getting worked on soon: https://gitlab.com/tildes/tildes/boards

      Outside of what's shown there, I've been trying to gradually work towards some things that will be needed to make the site publicly-visible so that we can start allowing people to browse it without needing to get an invite first. This mostly revolves around some features related to how groups work and supporting "browsing" them more easily, because I don't want Tildes to have a "default front page". I think that caused a huge amount of issues for reddit over the long term, so I'd like to make it so that viewers have to be more deliberate about what they want to see.

      15 votes
      1. [3]
        frickindeal Link Parent
        Would that be a sort of wizard that asks what a reader's interests are, and points them towards those groups? That's something I could see at signup, but how would the front page change for...

        Would that be a sort of wizard that asks what a reader's interests are, and points them towards those groups? That's something I could see at signup, but how would the front page change for non-logged-in viewers? Through a cookie, perhaps?

        6 votes
        1. [2]
          Deimos Link Parent
          I'm not totally certain where it will go yet, but initially I'm just intending to make logged-out users go into groups individually, with the front page just being an easy way to pick which one to...

          I'm not totally certain where it will go yet, but initially I'm just intending to make logged-out users go into groups individually, with the front page just being an easy way to pick which one to browse. The idea of a "merged" front page can be nice, but really isn't essential. There are plenty of sites/forums/etc. where you have to pick a category, and it works perfectly fine. You usually just end up with people going directly to the categories that they care about, instead of using the front page at all.

          8 votes
          1. frickindeal Link Parent
            Interesting. It makes sense, because it's in essence an aggregator, and some news sites for instance will ask your interests before presenting you the news. I certainly don't want to read about...

            Interesting. It makes sense, because it's in essence an aggregator, and some news sites for instance will ask your interests before presenting you the news. I certainly don't want to read about celebrity fashion, so it's great when they let me choose what to see and what not to see.

            4 votes
    2. [2]
      Bauke Link Parent
      In terms of open-source contributions you can look at the merge requests on GitLab, most of the merge requests that get submitted at the moment are very likely to be implemented. Another place is...

      In terms of open-source contributions you can look at the merge requests on GitLab, most of the merge requests that get submitted at the moment are very likely to be implemented. Another place is the issues assigned to Deimos that are in progress, although there's only 1 at the moment. So you could get a good grasp from there, but anything other than that only Deimos could answer himself.

      10 votes
      1. cfabbro Link Parent
        Other than merge requests, which you mentioned, the "Development" board on Gitlab is the easiest way for people to keep tabs on "In Progress" and "High Priority" issues/features IMO:...

        Other than merge requests, which you mentioned, the "Development" board on Gitlab is the easiest way for people to keep tabs on "In Progress" and "High Priority" issues/features IMO:
        https://gitlab.com/tildes/tildes/boards

        9 votes
    3. what Link Parent
      I’m slowly working on bookmarks, user bios, and a back to top button on mobile.

      I’m slowly working on bookmarks, user bios, and a back to top button on mobile.

      8 votes
  3. [15]
    reese Link
    Is there a CI/CD pipeline, or are you manually deploying Tildes? Where are you deploying Tildes? I skimmed the docs and didn't see any relevant information on this. Also, I'm unfamiliar with...

    Is there a CI/CD pipeline, or are you manually deploying Tildes? Where are you deploying Tildes? I skimmed the docs and didn't see any relevant information on this.

    Also, I'm unfamiliar with Python and its libraries, but from what I can gather by glancing at the repo, Tildes is an MVC application that heavily leverages database triggers—please correct me if I'm wrong. I also understand that there is an API that you intend to build for third-party consumers. In the long-term, will the API incorporate the database trigger logic as a service layer, or will that logic remain part of the database? Also, will the present frontend be refactored to communicate with the new API, or will it remain as is?

    14 votes
    1. [14]
      Deimos (edited ) Link Parent
      I just manually deploy it, it's not much of a process. Almost all of the time it's just: pull the code from GitLab, run Alembic migrations if necessary, restart webserver. It's possible that I'll...

      I just manually deploy it, it's not much of a process. Almost all of the time it's just: pull the code from GitLab, run Alembic migrations if necessary, restart webserver. It's possible that I'll move to more of a CI pipeline in the future, but it would be pretty overkill for now.

      I wouldn't say that Tildes uses database triggers heavily. There are some, but they're mostly very basic and just handle simple data-integrity tasks that the application code really shouldn't need to handle manually.

      As for the API, the way the code is currently set up, there's something referred to as the "web API", which is intended to be used by the site itself and mostly responds with HTML fragments that can be swapped into the pages. The "real" API would probably have a lot of similar endpoints, but will probably be a lot more formal (instead of being based around "whatever the site needs") and respond with JSON.

      I don't understand your question about the relationship between the API and the database triggers. The API will just result in data being changed in the database the same way the site does, which will cause the relevant triggers to run when they're needed. It shouldn't need to be treated any differently.

      15 votes
      1. [11]
        reese Link Parent
        Thank you for answering my questions. On database triggers: I come from a background that has entailed rewriting 20-year-old code that habitually makes extensive use of them. The triggers I've...

        Thank you for answering my questions. On database triggers: I come from a background that has entailed rewriting 20-year-old code that habitually makes extensive use of them. The triggers I've historically dealt with are nowhere to be found in source control, and unaccompanied by automated tests. In your case, you've packed them into the source code with accompanying tests, which I find interesting. Not because I disagree, but because I realized that I've had this knee-jerk negative reaction to triggers until seeing how they can be correctly used for the first time.

        Because of PTSD-inducing experiences in corporate, when I write greenfield code, I never use triggers. What you have for triggers, I would implement as a service layer within the API itself, dependency-injecting other services or repositories for various entities. I apply this razor where, if I consider something to be logic, it is performed within the API solely responsible for exposing a given database. Otherwise, I've seen the shared database anti-pattern cause additive logic to get stacked onto various applications, implemented differently, that isn't reflected back in the triggers, causing a maintenance nightmare. In your case, you avoid this too, because you have tight control over the code. Hopefully I'm not wasting your time. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I normally go about this differently, but your approach totally makes sense to me now.

        My motivation for understanding your approach is basically me trying to figure out if I sufficiently agree with your design philosophy to contribute code later down the line, and I believe I do.

        11 votes
        1. [10]
          Deimos Link Parent
          Thanks for elaborating, I completely understand. A lot of people definitely use triggers very poorly, and I think that's made a lot of people scared of using them at all. I think that's a huge...

          Thanks for elaborating, I completely understand. A lot of people definitely use triggers very poorly, and I think that's made a lot of people scared of using them at all. I think that's a huge shame, because they're extremely powerful, fast, reliable, and can simplify a lot of things from the application's perspective.

          My overall approach is to try to use triggers for things that are more related to data integrity than actual application logic. So for example, when someone deletes a comment, a trigger also deletes any notifications that were related to that comment. That's not something the application code should need to remember to do every time—there's no case where you want to delete a comment but leave the notification behind. So that's a perfect place to use a trigger, and you can be confident that you're never going to have weird "ghost" notifications left behind because of an error somewhere in the application code (or a request being terminated partway, etc.). The database makes sure that all the necessary updates happen together.

          16 votes
          1. reese Link Parent
            Thank you so much for explaining this. After six years of writing production code, someone has finally explained to me when triggers should be used, rather than parroting never use them or always...

            Thank you so much for explaining this. After six years of writing production code, someone has finally explained to me when triggers should be used, rather than parroting never use them or always use them. I'm changing jobs right now and about to throw myself into another wild west environment like I was before, and, embarrassingly, I've missed out on some basic fundamentals that would improve my code/architecture because of it. I'm typically surrounded by either a) highly opinionated people whose skills have atrophied in favor of "domain knowledge," or b) charlatans.

            13 votes
          2. [8]
            cfabbro Link Parent
            Is that what causes reddit to sometimes add a comment to someone's comment history but neglect to add it to the actual comment section "tree" where they tried to post said comment (e.g.)?

            and you can be confident that you're never going to have weird "ghost" notifications left behind because of an error somewhere in the application code (or a request being terminated partway, etc.).

            Is that what causes reddit to sometimes add a comment to someone's comment history but neglect to add it to the actual comment section "tree" where they tried to post said comment (e.g.)?

            3 votes
            1. [7]
              Deimos Link Parent
              Not quite the same cause, but kind of a related class of issues. Reddit relies really heavily on updating a lot of different cached versions of listings (including comment trees) whenever...

              Not quite the same cause, but kind of a related class of issues. Reddit relies really heavily on updating a lot of different cached versions of listings (including comment trees) whenever something changes, and sometimes some of those updates fail. It's especially hard because they're using multiple different data stores, and keeping the data in sync between them is difficult.

              7 votes
              1. [6]
                cfabbro Link Parent
                Is there no easy way to verify uniformity across multiple caches/data stores (e.g. comparing hashes, double checking updates actually went through, etc)? Will this become a potential issue with...

                Is there no easy way to verify uniformity across multiple caches/data stores (e.g. comparing hashes, double checking updates actually went through, etc)? Will this become a potential issue with Tildes as it scales up and you need to similarly start relying on multiple caches/data stores or is your data architecture fundamentally different than reddit's so it won't be an issue?

                6 votes
                1. Deimos Link Parent
                  There's a famous saying: Avoiding caching issues is a really hard problem for a lot of reasons. It's possible that we'll run into similar issues eventually, but it'll be a long way out.

                  There's a famous saying:

                  There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things.
                  -- Phil Karlton

                  Avoiding caching issues is a really hard problem for a lot of reasons. It's possible that we'll run into similar issues eventually, but it'll be a long way out.

                  6 votes
                2. [4]
                  Amarok (edited ) Link Parent
                  Multi-master databases are still one of the things most companies have to go commercial to get. Postgres doesn't support it yet natively though there's a lot of interest in getting it to do that...

                  Multi-master databases are still one of the things most companies have to go commercial to get. Postgres doesn't support it yet natively though there's a lot of interest in getting it to do that fairly soon. There are even several companies offering proprietary version of Postgres with this capability added. But fuck proprietary. Open source is always good enough.

                  There is an open-source fork of Postgres called Postgres-XL, based on v9.5 that is designed specifically to be multi-master. I haven't had the pleasure of tinkering with it yet myself, but the feature list is nice. If Tildes is looking for a multi-master toybox I'd start there. There are companies that offer commercial support for PG-XL too.

                  Edit: And they have betas for Postgres 10 as well. Looks like a healthy project.

                  5 votes
                  1. [3]
                    spit-evil-olive-tips Link Parent
                    Nothing good has ever resulted from running a multi-master database. I say this as someone who used to be in the on-call rotation for AWS SimpleDB...which you haven't heard of, for a very good reason.

                    Nothing good has ever resulted from running a multi-master database.

                    I say this as someone who used to be in the on-call rotation for AWS SimpleDB...which you haven't heard of, for a very good reason.

                    7 votes
                    1. [2]
                      Amarok Link Parent
                      How do you prefer to deal with horizontal scaling complexity?

                      How do you prefer to deal with horizontal scaling complexity?

                      4 votes
                      1. spit-evil-olive-tips Link Parent
                        Usually, the goal of a multi-master database isn't just horizontal scaling, but extreme partition tolerance. There's a fairly small subset of use cases that truly need that sort of partition...

                        Usually, the goal of a multi-master database isn't just horizontal scaling, but extreme partition tolerance. There's a fairly small subset of use cases that truly need that sort of partition tolerance, relative to the universe of things that benefit from horizontal scaling. Typically a mobile device of some kind that goes arbitrary amounts of time disconnected from the network and needs to write to the database while offline. For this sort of thing, you generally want a CRDT implementation.

                        If you want horizontal scaling but not the write conflicts that come from multi-master setups, the gold standard 800-lb gorilla is Cassandra. Netflix has a benchmark where they spun up 288 EC2 instances and distributed a million writes per second across that cluster. And that was in 2011 - they were using first-gen (M1) AWS hardware, including spinning rust instead of SSDs.

                        If you want to keep the relational model and SQL but still scale horizontally, CockroachDB is the best option IMO. TiDB is an option too, but TiDB tries to be too many things to too many people (like supporting a map-reduce-like layer for OLAP). Cockroach supporting the Postgres wire protocol is also a smarter decision than TiDB adopting MySQL's wire protocol, and Cockroach uses RocksDB for the storage layer compared to TiDB which invented their own.

                        Scylla is another interesting one, it's API- and disk format-compatible with Cassandra, but written in C++ with a really nice shared-nothing thread-per-core architecture. I'm also keeping an eye on FoundationDB now that Apple (re-)open-sourced it.

                        7 votes
      2. [2]
        meghan Link Parent
        how do you prevent downtime during the update? or is Tildes down for a few seconds while you grab the changes and do the restart?

        how do you prevent downtime during the update? or is Tildes down for a few seconds while you grab the changes and do the restart?

        6 votes
        1. Deimos Link Parent
          Most of the time, there's no downtime. The web server just gets reloaded, which (at least as far as I know) results in it smoothly updating over to the new code for new requests. About the only...

          Most of the time, there's no downtime. The web server just gets reloaded, which (at least as far as I know) results in it smoothly updating over to the new code for new requests.

          About the only time there is any downtime is if there's some sort of breaking database change, like removing a column that the old code was using. Then there's usually just a couple of seconds of downtime while I update the database and switch to the new code.

          7 votes
  4. [13]
    ainar-g Link
    The one I could use right now are custom sorts. That is, I want to be able to have "Most comments in the last 30d" and "Most votes in the last 7d" right next to the default sorts. Right now I can...

    The one I could use right now are custom sorts. That is, I want to be able to have "Most comments in the last 30d" and "Most votes in the last 7d" right next to the default sorts. Right now I can achieve that by using bookmarks or just typing a period as a query parameter into the URL, but I think you can see the problem(s) here.

    (In the meantime, just adding "last 7 days" to the list of periods would suffice. I mean, who needs "last 3 days" really?)

    Another feature that I often miss on Reddit is something like "top of the year" where I could see top posts from, say, 2012. HackerNews has a similar feature where you can see what the front page looked like on a certain day: https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=2011-07-12.

    8 votes
    1. [2]
      Deimos Link Parent
      Yeah, I think it'd be great to be able to set up your own custom "views" of different listings. Right now you can set the default, but that's about it. The site can handle it (which is why you can...

      Yeah, I think it'd be great to be able to set up your own custom "views" of different listings. Right now you can set the default, but that's about it. The site can handle it (which is why you can already choose "other period" and enter any time period you want), but we need a way to save and use them more easily.

      And yeah, being able to set both a start and end date/time would enable things like that HN feature. That way you'd be able to say things like "show me the top-voted posts between 2011-07-12 and 2011-07-16", or whatever other combination you want.

      @super_james has been doing some work on the open-source code that makes the ability to set time periods much more flexible, so that will probably end up being very useful for these sorts of things.

      8 votes
      1. cfabbro Link Parent
        Sorting by specified date/time ranges is also already on Gitlab too, although nobody has started working on it yet AFAIK: https://gitlab.com/tildes/tildes/issues/237

        Sorting by specified date/time ranges is also already on Gitlab too, although nobody has started working on it yet AFAIK:
        https://gitlab.com/tildes/tildes/issues/237

        6 votes
    2. [10]
      Archimedes Link Parent
      I actually really like "last 3 days". It's perfect for if I want to catch up on what happened over the weekend. Also, I'm hesitant to interact with stuff from 4-7 days old as it feels like...

      I actually really like "last 3 days". It's perfect for if I want to catch up on what happened over the weekend. Also, I'm hesitant to interact with stuff from 4-7 days old as it feels like "necro-ing" in many cases.

      6 votes
      1. [9]
        ainar-g Link Parent
        I see. I use the 7 days period on the week-end, when I binge the content I've missed during the work week. I'm not sure what's the policy on necroposting here on Tildes is, but I think that a...

        I see. I use the 7 days period on the week-end, when I binge the content I've missed during the work week.

        I'm not sure what's the policy on necroposting here on Tildes is, but I think that a week-old post is probably still relevant. At least I've seen week-old posts re-emerging several times.

        3 votes
        1. [7]
          cfabbro Link Parent
          There is no necroposting policy AFAIK. And I personally think complaining about "necroposting" here is a bit absurd since, unlike traditional forums where necroposting can be an actual issue, on...

          There is no necroposting policy AFAIK. And I personally think complaining about "necroposting" here is a bit absurd since, unlike traditional forums where necroposting can be an actual issue, on Tildes if a user doesn't want to see posts reappear beyond a certain age then they can just set their activity sort threshold to lower than that.

          The only time I have seen topics show up on activity sort that I felt miffed at is because someone commented on their own 0 comment submission hours or even days after originally posting it. If it's an update to the topic, that's fine with me and perfectly acceptable... but I have seen a few times now where it was clearly just an OP purposely delaying making a comment to exploit the activity sort.

          8 votes
          1. [2]
            Catt Link Parent
            ...eh, I've done that...delayed by hours anyways (not days). Sometimes I intend to write something, get interrupted and have to stop, and I don't get a chance to get back to it for a few hours. Is...

            The only time I have seen a few topics show up on activity sort that I felt miffed at is because someone commented on their own 0 comment submission hours or days after originally posting it.

            ...eh, I've done that...delayed by hours anyways (not days).

            Sometimes I intend to write something, get interrupted and have to stop, and I don't get a chance to get back to it for a few hours. Is it honestly something that's really annoying? I use to write everything up in notepad or something first and then copy it over, but honestly got lazy and stopped that, which is why there is a delay in my posting and my commenting sometimes.

            9 votes
            1. cfabbro Link Parent
              It really depends on the comment, TBH. If it's a substantial contribution then a few hours delay doesn't really bother me, but OPs commenting on a >24hrs 0 comment topic is kind of pushing it no...

              It really depends on the comment, TBH. If it's a substantial contribution then a few hours delay doesn't really bother me, but OPs commenting on a >24hrs 0 comment topic is kind of pushing it no matter the circumstances IMO. And the ones I am referring to that were "clearly" exploiting the system were far from substantial.

              4 votes
          2. [3]
            Deimos Link Parent
            I've done this quite a few times, and it's not because I'm trying to abuse the activity sort or deliberately delay my comment. It's usually because I post an article that I recognize is an...

            I've done this quite a few times, and it's not because I'm trying to abuse the activity sort or deliberately delay my comment. It's usually because I post an article that I recognize is an interesting article, important piece of news, etc. but I haven't had time to actually read it myself yet. Then hours or days later when I get around to reading it is when I might have a comment about it.

            7 votes
            1. Amarok Link Parent
              Steal one of 4chan's more clever features - the 'sage' tag. Enough people flag a post that keeps popping up with that, and it stops bumping for a while (or forever as the number of sage tags piles...

              Steal one of 4chan's more clever features - the 'sage' tag. Enough people flag a post that keeps popping up with that, and it stops bumping for a while (or forever as the number of sage tags piles up). That seems like a decent user-powered way to identify pointless bumping. Might even be a halfway decent honeypot to identify spammers and other agenda-driven accounts.

              6 votes
            2. cfabbro Link Parent
              Fair enough, but I honestly still think on 0 comment topics that OPs should probably not be able to "bump" them with a comment of their own, especially hours/days later.

              Fair enough, but I honestly still think on 0 comment topics that OPs should probably not be able to "bump" them with a comment of their own, especially hours/days later.

              2 votes
          3. Archimedes Link Parent
            It really depends on the content of the thread. For general discussions not tied to any point in time, I don't have much issue adding a new comment to an old thread if I have something to...

            It really depends on the content of the thread. For general discussions not tied to any point in time, I don't have much issue adding a new comment to an old thread if I have something to contribute. Other stuff relating to news or current events can often become outdated as things rapidly evolve.

            1 vote
  5. [12]
    Bauke Link
    Quick question, are topic logs from older posts being removed? I noticed this when I was searching for an older topic I posted and confirmed it with this one that I know with absolute certainty...

    Quick question, are topic logs from older posts being removed? I noticed this when I was searching for an older topic I posted and confirmed it with this one that I know with absolute certainty that people edited the tags of, yet there is no topic log anymore.

    8 votes
    1. [9]
      Deimos Link Parent
      Yes, all logs (of all types, including topic logs) are deleted after 30 days.

      Yes, all logs (of all types, including topic logs) are deleted after 30 days.

      10 votes
      1. [8]
        Archimedes Link Parent
        I don't object this approach, but I'm curious as to the line of reasoning involved. Storage/clutter related or more privacy oriented?

        I don't object this approach, but I'm curious as to the line of reasoning involved. Storage/clutter related or more privacy oriented?

        6 votes
        1. [6]
          Deimos Link Parent
          It's definitely privacy-related, but overall I just think it's harmful that we've gotten to a state where the default approach is "keep as much data as you can, forever, even if you're not using...

          It's definitely privacy-related, but overall I just think it's harmful that we've gotten to a state where the default approach is "keep as much data as you can, forever, even if you're not using it for anything". That's what makes data breaches so scary—companies keep everything, even when they don't have a particular use for it. I think data should be treated more like a harmful byproduct, and only kept when you actually need it for something.

          18 votes
          1. [5]
            Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
            But, in this case, isn't the data relevant? For your proposed trust system, don't you need to keep a record of what sort of changes a user has been making? How do you know whether someone has been...

            But, in this case, isn't the data relevant? For your proposed trust system, don't you need to keep a record of what sort of changes a user has been making? How do you know whether someone has been making good changes and should be promoted to higher duties, or has been making bad changes and should be demoted, if you don't retain that topic log data?

            4 votes
            1. [4]
              Deimos Link Parent
              Yes, but it doesn't take over 30 days to make those determinations.

              Yes, but it doesn't take over 30 days to make those determinations.

              2 votes
              1. [3]
                Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                How would you track user behaviour over the long-term, though? How will you know when a user is changing tack from their previous behaviour?

                How would you track user behaviour over the long-term, though? How will you know when a user is changing tack from their previous behaviour?

                1 vote
                1. cfabbro (edited ) Link Parent
                  You don't need to permanently keep a record of every single action a user took that resulted in trust +/- to determine long-term behavioral trends... the trust score itself does that for you as a...

                  You don't need to permanently keep a record of every single action a user took that resulted in trust +/- to determine long-term behavioral trends... the trust score itself does that for you as a meta-value. And just because you don't keep the record of every user action or the topic logs doesn't mean you won't keep all the records of any major infractions, commendations or significant shifts in user trust values, which can also be used to determine behavioral trends.

                  7 votes
                2. Deimos Link Parent
                  I think you're probably thinking about it too theoretically, because as a general concept it definitely seems like having as much history as possible would be useful. But in practice, we're never...

                  I think you're probably thinking about it too theoretically, because as a general concept it definitely seems like having as much history as possible would be useful. But in practice, we're never going to need months of history to figure out things like whether people edit titles responsibly.

                  4 votes
        2. Amarok Link Parent
          Privacy is the cake, the performant benefits are the icing. ;)

          Privacy is the cake, the performant benefits are the icing. ;)

          4 votes
    2. [2]
      Octofox Link Parent
      What are topic logs?

      What are topic logs?

      1 vote
      1. meghan Link Parent
        It's not on every topic, but if the OP or a moderator edits a post it be on the sidebar eg: https://tildes.net/~talk/7fa

        It's not on every topic, but if the OP or a moderator edits a post it be on the sidebar
        eg: https://tildes.net/~talk/7fa

        2 votes
  6. [4]
    macadoum Link
    I would like to have at least the interface in my language, so for me i18n is a priority. Maybe we can have discussions in other languages too at some time, but for now, just have the site...

    I would like to have at least the interface in my language, so for me i18n is a priority. Maybe we can have discussions in other languages too at some time, but for now, just have the site translated would be nice. I'm sure a lot of tilders here would be happy to help with this.

    So do you have plans about this ?

    7 votes
    1. Deimos Link Parent
      Overall, it's really not something that I'm working towards at all at this point. As mentioned in the other recent thread that people linked, the plans for the foreseeable future are to keep the...

      Overall, it's really not something that I'm working towards at all at this point. As mentioned in the other recent thread that people linked, the plans for the foreseeable future are to keep the site's content in English, and I don't think it's very meaningful to translate the interface if people aren't able to read the actual content anyway.

      It's not something I'm opposed to, but I expect that it would actually be more useful for other people that might want to run their own different-language version of the Tildes code than for Tildes itself. Because of that, it's not really something that I'm going to prioritize anytime soon, there's too much other essential work that will have immediate benefits.

      10 votes
    2. ainar-g Link Parent
      This was basically discussed about a month ago. I think that eventually discussions in other languages should be supported, although I don't really care about the interface i18n.

      This was basically discussed about a month ago. I think that eventually discussions in other languages should be supported, although I don't really care about the interface i18n.

      6 votes
  7. [7]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [6]
      Deimos Link Parent
      Since the site's activity hasn't really been increasing much, I still don't want to fragment into too many groups yet. I've been doing some work related to the group system lately though (which is...

      Since the site's activity hasn't really been increasing much, I still don't want to fragment into too many groups yet. I've been doing some work related to the group system lately though (which is generally aimed towards being able to make the site publicly-visible), so there will probably be some group-related changes in the somewhat near future.

      I was planning to have another thread to propose new groups pretty soon anyway though, probably early next week. Some of the existing ones aren't getting much activity (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), and there seem to be a few gaps that I think would be good to try to create groups for. Specifically, I think something along the lines of ~business would probably be a good idea, there seem to be quite a few topics that would fit that getting posted in ~life and ~misc lately.

      Is there a particular group/subgroup that you'd really like to see?

      9 votes
      1. [6]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [5]
          frickindeal Link Parent
          The way I understand it from reading a lot of discussion about subgroups, that sub would be considered when there are enough mechanical keyboard topics in ~hobbies to justify it. Right now, that...

          The way I understand it from reading a lot of discussion about subgroups, that sub would be considered when there are enough mechanical keyboard topics in ~hobbies to justify it. Right now, that doesn't seem to be the case. I, for instance, would love a category for watches, but there isn't currently the content load here to justify it.

          5 votes
          1. [4]
            cfabbro (edited ) Link Parent
            That's not the only mechanism for determining when a group would be added, there are others. E.g. A ~tildes.official topic asking for group suggestions was made ages ago, and Deimos has said...

            That's not the only mechanism for determining when a group would be added, there are others. E.g. A ~tildes.official topic asking for group suggestions was made ages ago, and Deimos has said another is likely coming some time next week as well.

            Deimos has also previously talked about how having no group for a specific subject can have a chilling effect on the amount of submissions related to that subject, so determining interested in said subject purely by tags isn't necessarily all that accurate. E.g. ~anime wasn't created based on tags but on a suggestion and it's reasonably active despite there having been very few anime related submissions before the group was created (probably since being forced to submit things to ~misc can be discouraging).

            5 votes
            1. [3]
              frickindeal Link Parent
              I had actually wondered about that when I first went down the list of groups and saw anime there. It seemed particularly specific compared to the more general scope of most of the others. I'll...

              I had actually wondered about that when I first went down the list of groups and saw anime there. It seemed particularly specific compared to the more general scope of most of the others. I'll have to make sure to suggest a couple I'd like to see in the next round.

              Side note: Interestingly, your link took me to a "no topics found" page until I changed my sort to all time.

              3 votes
              1. cfabbro Link Parent
                Hmm... that's not good. Linking to search results and tags should probably automatically ignore users' default sort period. Created a Gitlab issue for it.

                Side note: Interestingly, your link took me to a "no topics found" page until I changed my sort to all time.

                Hmm... that's not good. Linking to search results and tags should probably automatically ignore users' default sort period. Created a Gitlab issue for it.

                5 votes
              2. Amarok Link Parent
                I expect we'll be able to reshuffle positions of groups in the hierarchy. Sub-level could become top-level and vice versa, or groups could jump chains, or even be multi-homed in several places at...

                I expect we'll be able to reshuffle positions of groups in the hierarchy. Sub-level could become top-level and vice versa, or groups could jump chains, or even be multi-homed in several places at once. Depends on what the community needs as it grows. Some amount of reshuffling will be natural as topics diversify.

                That means there's really no harm in being generous with top-level group creation. We won't need to go micromanage-crazy until the hierarchy is much more complex than it is today, or likely will become in the near future.

                4 votes
  8. [2]
    noah Link
    I'm guessing this isn't an intended feature, but I've been trying this for a while to see how many I can generate - when you re-up invite codes, if a user generates the codes but doesn't share...

    I'm guessing this isn't an intended feature, but I've been trying this for a while to see how many I can generate - when you re-up invite codes, if a user generates the codes but doesn't share them, they can keep re-upping. Right now I'm at 28 unused codes from nothing special.

    While I don't have 28 invites to send, it's possible something like this could be abused to mass-add accounts that would require some work on your part to remedy. If you didn't already know about this, now you know!

    6 votes
    1. Deimos Link Parent
      Yeah, I'm aware it's possible, I'm not too worried about it. You could have just asked me for 30 codes and I would have given them to you, so it's not really any different in the end. If I see...

      Yeah, I'm aware it's possible, I'm not too worried about it. You could have just asked me for 30 codes and I would have given them to you, so it's not really any different in the end. If I see someone actually abusing it somehow I'll worry about it, but I'm not really concerned.

      7 votes
  9. [14]
    WingRiddenAngel Link
    Will there be an app or mobile/compact version of the site?

    Will there be an app or mobile/compact version of the site?

    6 votes
    1. Deimos Link Parent
      The existing site is responsive and works quite well on mobile, though some aspects do need more work. It should have an "add to home screen" type button as well if you're on a phone that can...

      The existing site is responsive and works quite well on mobile, though some aspects do need more work. It should have an "add to home screen" type button as well if you're on a phone that can split it out into something a little more app-like (and there are also other options like Hermit that do an even better job of this).

      The goal is not to have a separate, official "mobile version". It should always just be the site itself, which means that mobile and desktop users have access to all the same features at the same time.

      10 votes
    2. [4]
      Bauke Link Parent
      There was a topic on this recently: https://tildes.net/~tildes/7bn

      There was a topic on this recently: https://tildes.net/~tildes/7bn

      5 votes
      1. [3]
        cfabbro Link Parent
        And one on Reddit too: https://www.reddit.com/r/tildes/comments/9blx0x/i_really_wish_there_was_a_mobile_app/ As well as one about the Progressive Web App (PWA) manifest:...
        3 votes
        1. [2]
          Kronos Link Parent
          Sorry, I should of had a search first. Will read over the linked threads.

          Sorry, I should of had a search first. Will read over the linked threads.

          3 votes
          1. cfabbro Link Parent
            No worries... this topic is for asking questions and even if they are "repeats" it still gives more people an opportunity to see the answers to them as well. :) p.s. It's also mentioned in the...

            No worries... this topic is for asking questions and even if they are "repeats" it still gives more people an opportunity to see the answers to them as well. :)

            p.s. It's also mentioned in the Docs, which are also well worth reading at some point too IMO:
            https://docs.tildes.net/technical-goals#the-site-is-the-main-mobile-interface-not-an-app

            3 votes
    3. [8]
      meghan Link Parent
      there won't be, you can add the website to your home screen and obtain the same experience

      there won't be, you can add the website to your home screen and obtain the same experience

      2 votes
      1. [7]
        frickindeal Link Parent
        Is there a way to do it on iOS? I just switched from Android, and it was dead-simple there, but I've tried Safari and Firefox on iOS, and neither seems to support that.

        Is there a way to do it on iOS? I just switched from Android, and it was dead-simple there, but I've tried Safari and Firefox on iOS, and neither seems to support that.

        2 votes
        1. [6]
          cfabbro (edited ) Link Parent
          In Safari click the [↑] icon in the top right, then in the bottom row where "Copy, Add to Reading List, etc" is, scroll over until you see "Add to Home Screen" and select that. p.s. If you want a...

          In Safari click the [↑] icon in the top right, then in the bottom row where "Copy, Add to Reading List, etc" is, scroll over until you see "Add to Home Screen" and select that.

          p.s. If you want a more "app-like" experience and don't mind putting in a bit of work then I would suggest getting iCab mobile. It has a really nice, ultra-minimalist full-screen mode and all sorts of deep customization options, including UI and custom gesture behavior which you can set up to have Tildes look and behave very much like a purpose built app.

          4 votes
          1. [5]
            frickindeal Link Parent
            I can't believe I didn't see that. The [↑] icon is at the bottom middle on my iPhone Xs on iOS 12, but I didn't realize that list scrolled horizontally. Thanks for that. I had no problem getting...

            I can't believe I didn't see that. The [↑] icon is at the bottom middle on my iPhone Xs on iOS 12, but I didn't realize that list scrolled horizontally. Thanks for that. I had no problem getting used to iOS, but the little things are sometimes hidden in places strange to a longtime Android user.

            iCab mobile looks pretty fantastic. I'll grab it when I have a bit more time to play around. For now, ~ works well in Safari.

            3 votes
            1. [4]
              cfabbro Link Parent
              Yeah, they really should do a better job of indicating those [↑] rows are actually scrollable since it's pretty unintuitive. Even just a simple > beside the right most icon would help people...

              Yeah, they really should do a better job of indicating those [↑] rows are actually scrollable since it's pretty unintuitive. Even just a simple > beside the right most icon would help people realize there are more options.

              And yeah iCab mobile really is fantastic. I only started using it about 3 months ago when someone here suggested it to me, but it's my go-to iOS browser now.

              3 votes
              1. [3]
                frickindeal Link Parent
                Can you create gestures for navigation, like swiping right or left to go back or forward? I know mouse gestures never really took off on desktop, but I use them on every setup I have and hate...

                Can you create gestures for navigation, like swiping right or left to go back or forward? I know mouse gestures never really took off on desktop, but I use them on every setup I have and hate using a computer that doesn't have them installed in the browser, so I'd love to just swipe for navigation.

                3 votes
                1. [2]
                  cfabbro (edited ) Link Parent
                  Yeah you can set gestures and multi-touch swipes/taps for page navigation, reload, open/close tabs, bookmark management, switching to reader mode, open particular pages (e.g. your Tildes user...

                  Yeah you can set gestures and multi-touch swipes/taps for page navigation, reload, open/close tabs, bookmark management, switching to reader mode, open particular pages (e.g. your Tildes user settings, inbox/notifications or history), etc. There is a ton of options.

                  3 votes
                  1. frickindeal Link Parent
                    Thanks again. I had no idea that browser even existed, and I've been spending time searching top apps for iOS since switching. Definitely going to get it now. That sounds amazing, and I don't know...

                    Thanks again. I had no idea that browser even existed, and I've been spending time searching top apps for iOS since switching. Definitely going to get it now. That sounds amazing, and I don't know of any other browser that supports that.

                    3 votes
  10. CrazyOtter Link
    I think making the site publicly visible but still invite only will result in more users but still maintain the high quality of discussion. At the moment we've got a relatively high barrier for...

    I think making the site publicly visible but still invite only will result in more users but still maintain the high quality of discussion. At the moment we've got a relatively high barrier for access (find site somehow, keep eye out for invites, get one) without being able to see what they're getting into. Large commitment in internet terms.

    Pushing the site again on social media/reddit/hacker news etc etc when it becomes publicly visible is obviously a good idea.

    Maybe there could be a simple metrics page that is automatically updated?

    Finally just a general thanks for creating this place, it's fun to hangout here.

    6 votes
  11. [2]
    Adys Link
    Two features I miss from HN which I think would make a good addition are submissions by domain (example) and "Previous submissions". The latter isn't so much of a HN feature, just a search query,...

    Two features I miss from HN which I think would make a good addition are submissions by domain (example) and "Previous submissions". The latter isn't so much of a HN feature, just a search query, but I think it encourages reigniting and/or referencing old discussions. I'd love to see that concept taken further, because it makes submission aggregators feel like less of an information black hole after a few days.

    5 votes
    1. Deimos Link Parent
      Yeah, I'd consider both of those features that would be related to search. Search generally needs a ton of fleshing out, the current implementation is extremely basic.

      Yeah, I'd consider both of those features that would be related to search. Search generally needs a ton of fleshing out, the current implementation is extremely basic.

      3 votes
  12. [5]
    KernelPanic Link
    As tildes gets more popular, and comment trees grow, the practicality of the "Post Comment" box being at the bottom of the comment tree decreases. Possible solutions to this range from simply...

    As tildes gets more popular, and comment trees grow, the practicality of the "Post Comment" box being at the bottom of the comment tree decreases. Possible solutions to this range from simply moving it above the tree, or having it as a static block in a corner of the page. Have you thought about this issue?

    5 votes
    1. [2]
      cfabbro (edited ) Link Parent
      I disagree. As comment sections grow the value of new top-level comments decreases as the likelihood of them even being seen decreases as well. so providing an easier means to create them at that...

      As tildes gets more popular, and comment trees grow, the practicality of the "Post Comment" box being at the bottom of the comment tree decreases.

      I disagree. As comment sections grow the value of new top-level comments decreases as the likelihood of them even being seen decreases as well. so providing an easier means to create them at that point is pretty pointless IMO.

      Have you ever spent some time in large comment threads on reddit sorting by new? It's an endless stream of utterly pointless noise with very, very little substance and it's extremely rare to see any votes on said comments, even the rare substantive ones... And TBH I think that problem is an inherent property of new top-level comments in super large comment sections, since people who understand that once they reach a certain size making a new top-level comment is pointless don't make new top-level comments at that point, however people oblivious to this fact (who are the ones more likely to just create noise comments like "lol" and "this is dumb", etc) don't realize that and so are the only ones likely to continue making new top-level comments.

      Now, that doesn't mean Tildes can't try to address that problem, though. One of my suggestions was "folding" the entire comments section up into its own discrete collapsed (but still expandable) section every X hours/days and/or every Y comments. This mechanism would essentially "reset" the comment sections for important topics on ongoing events, where there is value in consistently providing visibility to new top-level comments since there may be important updates even hours/days later. And I am sure there are other ideas that might work to help the issue as well (like exemplary and noise comment labels help)... but I don't think moving the new top-level comment box is one of them.

      11 votes
      1. meghan Link Parent
        I agree but for the reasons you mention this is an intended feature. If a thread gets so long you don't want to scroll down then the chance that your question insight has already been said is...

        As tildes gets more popular, and comment trees grow, the practicality of the "Post Comment" box being at the bottom of the comment tree decreases.

        I agree but for the reasons you mention this is an intended feature. If a thread gets so long you don't want to scroll down then the chance that your question insight has already been said is significantly higher and your efforts would be much more effectively spent upvoting comments already posted.

        3 votes
    2. Deimos Link Parent
      If the existing comment tree is so large that reaching the bottom is a hassle, it's unlikely that a new top-level comment is going to be very useful to add. It's generally better for people to get...

      If the existing comment tree is so large that reaching the bottom is a hassle, it's unlikely that a new top-level comment is going to be very useful to add. It's generally better for people to get involved in the discussions that are already happening than post a new top-level comment (and that's what the box being at the bottom encourages).

      7 votes
    3. Bauke Link Parent
      Here's a topic from a while ago, talking about the comment box being at the bottom and why it most likely won't change. https://tildes.net/~tildes/ov#comment-335

      Here's a topic from a while ago, talking about the comment box being at the bottom and why it most likely won't change. https://tildes.net/~tildes/ov#comment-335

      3 votes