Ford says it’s finally cracked the code on cheap EVs.
The automaker announced plans to build “a family” of low-cost electric vehicles at its Kentucky assembly plant, starting with a four-door, midsized $30,000 pickup truck in 2027. Ford touted the announcement as its “Model T moment” that will be more streamlined to help bring down costs and put the company on a path to profitability. And it comes at an inflection point for the iconic American automaker, with the company expected to lose over $5 billion on EVs and software this year alone.
The platforms will be scalable and adaptive to a variety of vehicle types, including trucks, vans, and SUVs. The new EVs will be software-defined, meaning they will have operating systems that can improve over time through over-the-air updates. The batteries will have lithium iron phosphate (LFP) chemistries that are more durable, faster charging, and more affordable than its current lineup of EVs. And the manufacturing process will transform from a single assembly line, popularized over 120 years ago with the Model T, into an “assembly tree” with multiple lines starting simultaneously before joining together.
Perhaps too cynical of me but it sounds to me kind of like the “breakthrough” they made was figuring out that it’s more economical to build a line of EVs on top of a flexible platform than it is...
Perhaps too cynical of me but it sounds to me kind of like the “breakthrough” they made was figuring out that it’s more economical to build a line of EVs on top of a flexible platform than it is to treat EVs as one-off unicorns and/or compliance projects… something that EV proponents have been shouting from the rooftops for ages now.
To be clear, I welcome it and look forward to having more EVs on the market (especially options that support CarPlay/AA, unlike GM EVs), but really this should’ve been obvious.
I was thinking the same thing. "What was the secret, actually trying for once?" It honestly amazes me how much car manufacturers - not only Ford, but Ford especially - kept trying to delude...
I was thinking the same thing. "What was the secret, actually trying for once?" It honestly amazes me how much car manufacturers - not only Ford, but Ford especially - kept trying to delude themselves into thinking that we'd all be driving fossil fuel cars forever.
I think Ford might just be the slowest of the bunch, too. I looked on their website and they only have three EV models on the market, and only one of them is actually mass market (The Mustang Mach-e - The F-150 lightning arguably is too, but I don't know how wide the intersection between "wants a big giant inefficient truck" and "wants an EV" actualy is). In the meanwhile GM has about a dozen EV models in their 2026 lineup.
It kind of feels like a miracle that Ford is in business at all. Of the trucks I see on the road, they are very likely to be F-150s, but it's extremely rare to see that blue oval badge on any other type of car where I live. And among the people I socialize with, Ford is not known for their quality. Of the people who I have known who say they're fans of car brands, I haven't seen anyone who is a fan of the Ford brand since the 1990s.
I love my Ford Maverick. A lot has been said about how we finally have a small truck option again and that is a big part of the vehicle's success. But what impressed me that I don't see talked...
I love my Ford Maverick. A lot has been said about how we finally have a small truck option again and that is a big part of the vehicle's success. But what impressed me that I don't see talked about is the user experience with the "cabin tech".
Every critical function can be controlled with physical buttons and knobs. Transport controls, radio tuning, climate control, etc. The only touch panel in sight is the touch screen itself, which can easily be relegated to CarPlay/Android Auto duty 100% of the time. The control cluster is coherently laid out and easy to use without looking.
It was one of the main deciding factors for me between this car and its closest competitor, the Hyundai Santa Cruz. Almost everything in the Hyundai not controlled through the touch screen is done so through a control cluster that is one big capacitive touch panel under the screen. To add insult to injury, that panel is glossy black 🤮
This is no longer true on the 2025, sadly - they’ve removed climate controls (and weirdly there’s no physical play/pause button anywhere - even the steering wheel). Still love my Maverick though....
Every critical function can be controlled with physical buttons and knobs.
This is no longer true on the 2025, sadly - they’ve removed climate controls (and weirdly there’s no physical play/pause button anywhere - even the steering wheel).
Still love my Maverick though. I would’ve 100% gone electric if they had a compact or midsize EV truck that was affordable.
I’ve only had two cars with touchscreens, a 2018 GTI and now a 2025 GR Corolla, and I don’t think either have had a physical play/pause button. The GTI paused if you turned the volume down to 0...
I’ve only had two cars with touchscreens, a 2018 GTI and now a 2025 GR Corolla, and I don’t think either have had a physical play/pause button. The GTI paused if you turned the volume down to 0 with the steering wheel, though, and then played again once you turned it up, which worked fine enough.
It’s small, but it exists. Ford really sold these as “exactly like an F-150, but electric” and plenty of people, even boomers bought them in California because electricity is cheaper than gas and...
I don’t know how wide the intersection between "wants a big giant inefficient truck" and "wants an EV" actualy is
It’s small, but it exists. Ford really sold these as “exactly like an F-150, but electric” and plenty of people, even boomers bought them in California because electricity is cheaper than gas and they could get rebates+incentives on them. Buuuut…
"What was the secret, actually trying for once?"
Well, let’s just say I hope that’s what they tried because it’s clear Ford didn’t care about or understand what people want in an EV when they designed that truck. It has, as you pointed out terrible efficiency, and low range, but also long charging times. So a bunch of people sold them back within a year or so of purchase, creating a large secondhand market.
So the market for them was and probably still is basically “cheap pickup I can haul my tools in and charge at the worksite”. If your commute distance is low enough or you’re onsite long enough, even L1 charging is fine.
I do know that there are people who own an F-150 Lightning and they're elated with it. I will say that I originally thought that the idea of electric trucks was kind of stupid because they will be...
I do know that there are people who own an F-150 Lightning and they're elated with it. I will say that I originally thought that the idea of electric trucks was kind of stupid because they will be inherently inefficient and have low range, but I have seen a number of them. It's hard to say how popular they really are, though, because the ones I see the most are the ones that stick out like a sore thumb (i.e. Rivian, Cybertruck). I've only really seen one F-150 lightning, but that's only because I have a neighbor who owns one and I saw it enough times that I realized it wasn't just another gas powered model.
Trucks are inherently inefficient, and towing doubly so. The only difference with gas is that in most of the country, gas stations are still more plentiful than high speed (100kw+) L3 charging...
Trucks are inherently inefficient, and towing doubly so. The only difference with gas is that in most of the country, gas stations are still more plentiful than high speed (100kw+) L3 charging stations, and most EV trucks still have much longer recharging times compared to the refueling time of an ICE truck.
But there are definitely people who do it anyways. What I’ve seen some people do is tow to a campground, stay there overnight and charge, then stop at another campground 100 miles or so later, repeating as necessary to get to their actual destination. Just kind of taking it slow and enjoying the journey, which doesn’t sound terrible tbh. I’ve also seen people tow short distance or light loads (like a jetski) just fine and charge whenever they get the opportunity.
But anyone looking to tow long distance the way you would tow with an ICE vehicle is going to have a bad time. That’s true of almost any EV truck, except possibly the Silverado EV, and even then you’d still need to plan your trip carefully.
For anyone interested in the performance of EV towing, Aging Wheels put out a video about it recently that really surprised me. https://youtu.be/UmKf8smvGsA?si=ntMPGG5N57PFbZOr Towing was nowhere...
For anyone interested in the performance of EV towing, Aging Wheels put out a video about it recently that really surprised me.
Assuming you're travelling on flat ground at a constant speed weight really doesn't make much difference - the increase in rolling resistance due to load is tiny in comparison to wind resistance...
The whole idea that weight does not make much difference was so counter to what I was taught.
Assuming you're travelling on flat ground at a constant speed weight really doesn't make much difference - the increase in rolling resistance due to load is tiny in comparison to wind resistance at speed. You do have to exert more energy to get the greater weight up to speed in the first place but you only have to do that once in this scenario and from then on your energy output to maintain speed is basically all spent on fighting wind resistance whether loaded or unloaded. In the video he was doing highway loops in what looked like pretty flat country so I'm not surprised the weight didn't affect the numbers much.
Where weight will make a difference is when your route involves hills or if you are regularly having to vary your speed.
I was on a road trip with my partner the other day. I drive EVs, and I've been contemplating another EV for awhile now. I have no need for a truck, TBH. But every once in awhile I check in on the...
I was on a road trip with my partner the other day. I drive EVs, and I've been contemplating another EV for awhile now. I have no need for a truck, TBH. But every once in awhile I check in on the EV options in the segment. I, like most folks, have been socialized to think that "Towing is still not a good usecase for EVs".
I asked my partner to fire up an LLM to get some data and comparisons between EV and ICE trucks (we skipped diesel). In general, EV and ICE actually suffer pretty much the same range loss whilst towing. But the EV usually about a third of the energy that the ICE does. Sure, charging is a bit slower I fully grant that. And sure, the energy density of a battery today means the vehicle generally has a bit energy capacity than an ICE does with a fuel tank. So you're stopping more frequently.
But if efficiency of resource consumption is a thing you care about, towing with an EV wins.
Sorry I don't have all the figures in front of me. I was more or less dictating the questions and then being read the answers from the passenger seat. I was fascinating at the idea of normalizing gasoline down into energy units and then making a direct comparison. I had no real sense that an F-150 pickup loses ~46-120% of its range when towing a 7000lb object (which is roughly what the LLM was spitting out).
Finding out the "secret" in the same year the US completely slashes EV credits tells me there's some bad faith at play here. At best they see an oppurtinity as a major manufacturer where the...
Finding out the "secret" in the same year the US completely slashes EV credits tells me there's some bad faith at play here. At best they see an oppurtinity as a major manufacturer where the American competition is stifled by costs. At worst there may be some backroom deals Ford "cracked the Orange code" on.
In the middle, this may simply be fear for China's exploding market to break into the US eventually and Ford knows it needs to take advatadge of the market before BYD eats them whole (the CEO's impression of a Xiaomi test drive shows he knows the quality there).
Cynicism aside: I do welcome more EV's. Especially ones that are in some ballpark of "affordable". I wish they could get it down to $20,000 but even normal cars these days struggle to hit that mark.
Man the sedan and compact sedans are really dead in American automaking huh? My kingdom for an EV Honda Civic killer! The fact that their internal only, proof of concept demo was a truck really...
Man the sedan and compact sedans are really dead in American automaking huh?
The platforms will be scalable and adaptive to a variety of vehicle types, including trucks, vans, and SUVs.
My kingdom for an EV Honda Civic killer! The fact that their internal only, proof of concept demo was a truck really tells you where their heads are at. I don’t think American automakers have car guys in them anymore. I think they’ve been fully taken over by truck guy snow. I think the only non-Tesla sedans out there right now are the Ioniq 6 and the Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes ones. The latter three are like $100k and the Ioniq 6, while nice, just doesn’t hold a candle in terms for build quality or looks or general “niceness” to the comparably priced Camry, Accord, or Sonata. I guess the family and compact economy sedans are just going to die.
Small hatches are pretty dead too, even in the broader US market, which I find really unfortunate because they’re so much more practical than sedans even if their looks don’t have as much appeal....
Small hatches are pretty dead too, even in the broader US market, which I find really unfortunate because they’re so much more practical than sedans even if their looks don’t have as much appeal. The few that are still sold like the hatch variants of the Civic, Corolla, and Mazda 3 are closer to what used to be considered midsize and don’t do as well with making internal volume usable as older small hatches like the Fit and Matrix.
What’s crazy is they still sell really well in the used market. I just looked up a 2020 Honda Fit and it’s $20k for one with 50k miles. https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/3795445 That’s only $8k less...
What’s crazy is they still sell really well in the used market. I just looked up a 2020 Honda Fit and it’s $20k for one with 50k miles. https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/3795445
That’s only $8k less than a BRAND NEW base trim Civic Hatchback. Clearly there is demand!
Yep. I’ve observed the same with Fits as well as other similar models, even the old ones as long as there’s any life left in them whatsoever. There’s clearly an underserved market here.
Yep. I’ve observed the same with Fits as well as other similar models, even the old ones as long as there’s any life left in them whatsoever. There’s clearly an underserved market here.
Is this a US thing? Don't you get the cheaper Korean/French sedans and hatchbacks? Kia, Hyundai, Renault, Citroen and Peugeot all built relatively cheap EVs. Small and midsize hatchbacks, sedans,...
Ioniq 6 and the Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes ones
I guess the family and compact economy sedans are just going to die.
Is this a US thing? Don't you get the cheaper Korean/French sedans and hatchbacks? Kia, Hyundai, Renault, Citroen and Peugeot all built relatively cheap EVs. Small and midsize hatchbacks, sedans, they all have offers in those segments.
Then there's the VW group, they have plenty below $100k - even inhouse, the ID.7 is cheaper than that (still expensive for what you get). Skoda, Seat and Cupra are part of the VW group and serve significantly lower prices than Audi/Porsche. They all have small EVs.
We don’t get Renault, Citroen, or Peugeot in the US (except sometimes as a rebadge under a different make). Nor do we get Skoda, Seat, or Cupra (personally, I’ve only ever heard of Skoda in the VW...
We don’t get Renault, Citroen, or Peugeot in the US (except sometimes as a rebadge under a different make). Nor do we get Skoda, Seat, or Cupra (personally, I’ve only ever heard of Skoda in the VW list).
Interesting. That should make the market for Kia, Hyundai and VW even more attractive - if Americans had any demand for hatchbacks or sedans. For what it's worth, I think the EV6, IONIQ and Id.x...
We don’t get Renault, Citroen, or Peugeot in the US
Interesting. That should make the market for Kia, Hyundai and VW even more attractive - if Americans had any demand for hatchbacks or sedans.
For what it's worth, I think the EV6, IONIQ and Id.x are all perfectly good small-ish EVs.
Nor do we get Skoda, Seat, or Cupra
Pitty. In the end, those are all EVs built on VW's MEB platform, but significantly cheaper than the respective Id.x VW sells under its own brand.
I’m sure everybody has different standards, but when I think “small” I think of something like the Honda Fit/Jazz, which is about 4110mm long. The EV6, which is 4695mm is in comparison quite long...
I’m sure everybody has different standards, but when I think “small” I think of something like the Honda Fit/Jazz, which is about 4110mm long. The EV6, which is 4695mm is in comparison quite long and feels more like what’s I’d classify as midsize. The EV6 would be an extremely tight fit in my garage (may barely not fit) while the Fit would be no problem at all.
I think the issue isn’t demand, but rather that automakers want to push you into buying something bigger and more expensive with much thicker profit margins. They’d much rather sell you an SUV with a bunch of bells and whistles they can use to justify charging you US$35k+ for than they would a basic small grocery grabber hatch that can’t realistically have a price tag greater than ~$24k and would sell best at $18-$20k.
Ah, I see what you mean. I also just realize that they don't sell the VW Id.3 in the US. Apparently almost everybody just decided that this market is not attractive for small hatchback EVs. So the...
Ah, I see what you mean. I also just realize that they don't sell the VW Id.3 in the US. Apparently almost everybody just decided that this market is not attractive for small hatchback EVs.
So the Kia Niro and the Chevy Bolt are holding the fort. There's also the Nissan Leaf and a Mini Cooper, but I wouldn't consider buying those...
VW also has a reputation here for being a huge maintenance headache. The spare parts are expensive, the certified mechanics are expensive. So even though it’s roughly on par with a Honda or Toyota...
VW also has a reputation here for being a huge maintenance headache. The spare parts are expensive, the certified mechanics are expensive. So even though it’s roughly on par with a Honda or Toyota at MSRP the cost of ownership ends up worse so the people who get them tend to be more enthusiasts going for the GTI/GLI types rather than things like the Polo (which we don’t even get here).
Also the Chevy Bolt has been discontinued so it really is just the Niro and the Leaf. Mini theoretically sells an EV but I have literally never seen one in real life and it’s their SUV sized thing rather than the Mini. They used to sell the Mini but it had like 50 miles of range and cost as much as a Fit. I don’t know who the market for that was.
Toyota’s BZ whatever was being leased for stupidly good deals for a while. So that was close, but it’s also more of a crossover than a sedan. I think if you want an EV sedan that’s affordable right now your best bet is a Prius plug-in hybrid. But then you’re not getting the reduced maintenance burden benefits of an EV.
There’s technically also the Fiat 500e, but it’s sold in the US at around $35k which is absurd. Might be a good model to pick up depreciated used off-lease units for, but there’s no way that car...
There’s technically also the Fiat 500e, but it’s sold in the US at around $35k which is absurd. Might be a good model to pick up depreciated used off-lease units for, but there’s no way that car is worth $35k.
One I’d like to see make a comeback is the EV version of VW’s Golf. There was a “compliance car” version sold in the US from 2014-2019 with a pretty short range (IIRC around 100 miles in the later year models) but the cool thing is that it shared 90% of non-powertrain parts with the ICE Golf (which is still sold here) which made repairs easy and meant you could swap out its head unit freely, which isn’t possible on a lot of modern EVs.
There will probably be and Id.Golf in around 4-5 years, based on VW's Scalable Systems Platform (the future successor to the MEB-platform). But knowing VW, that car will not have many parts in...
One I’d like to see make a comeback is the EV version of VW’s Golf.
There will probably be and Id.Golf in around 4-5 years, based on VW's Scalable Systems Platform (the future successor to the MEB-platform). But knowing VW, that car will not have many parts in common with old or current ICE Golfs, they're just going to reuse the legacy name. That's what all the German brands are now moving towards with their EVs.
Looks pretty similar, but it’s unfortunately not available in the US. The smallest EV VW sells here is the ID.4, which is closer to an SUV/crossover like the RAV4.
Looks pretty similar, but it’s unfortunately not available in the US. The smallest EV VW sells here is the ID.4, which is closer to an SUV/crossover like the RAV4.
Polestar (Volvo) and Lucid both make EV sedans, neither would be considered affordable new, but you can get a used Polestar 2 in the $25k-30k range. That’s still not truly cheap, but it’s more...
Polestar (Volvo) and Lucid both make EV sedans, neither would be considered affordable new, but you can get a used Polestar 2 in the $25k-30k range. That’s still not truly cheap, but it’s more approachable for the average person than 60-70k.
$30K... MSRP for the base model with spikes on the seats and so on? Dealer markups that Ford tut-tuts at but doesn't take any other actions... Look, I'd love an electric Maverick but the Hybrid...
$30K... MSRP for the base model with spikes on the seats and so on? Dealer markups that Ford tut-tuts at but doesn't take any other actions...
Look, I'd love an electric Maverick but the Hybrid Maverick is good enough. Make an electric Focus or Fiesta. I dunno, not like I'd actively go after a Ford - I'm sure their actual market is into it.
The hybrid is good, but I believe they’re skating to where the puck is heading rather than where it is, and Chinese companies are starting to produce EVs with range well in excess of 500 miles...
The hybrid is good, but I believe they’re skating to where the puck is heading rather than where it is, and Chinese companies are starting to produce EVs with range well in excess of 500 miles (with claimed max mileage capping at 1200-1800 miles).
Once that kind of battery technology becomes widely available, hybrids will become largely redundant even in the US, where charging infrastructure is relatively poor. US automakers that aren’t ready with a full line of EVs to adopt that technology in will be in a bad spot.
Here you go. Probably not the best sources for each but it’s what turned up quickly. https://www.autoblog.com/news/byd-unveils-new-plug-in-hybrid-tech-with-a-claimed-1200-mile-range...
Here you go. Probably not the best sources for each but it’s what turned up quickly.
Of course claims rarely pan out fully in real life, but even if real world range is 200-400 miles short of those claims, it’d still be insane and is an indicator of where things are going.
I wonder what the timeline was for this compared to the Slate EV truck being announced. There's always been a market for smaller light trucks, electric or otherwise, but it seems (to someone who...
I wonder what the timeline was for this compared to the Slate EV truck being announced. There's always been a market for smaller light trucks, electric or otherwise, but it seems (to someone who doesn't pay a lot of attention to trucks) to have been kind of underserved for a long time.
Now we have two companies targeting that market, seems like a good thing.
Sooooo since it's an EV, does this finally get around the stupid emission standards that have lead to EVERYTHING being classified as a fullsize truck/suv and killed things like the compact truck?...
Sooooo since it's an EV, does this finally get around the stupid emission standards that have lead to EVERYTHING being classified as a fullsize truck/suv and killed things like the compact truck?
I assume no as I believe the tesla S or Y is classified as an SUV "for tax reasons", but i'm hoping it can bring some sanity back to the market.
CAFE standards were killed off this year by Trump, anyways.
[D]oes this finally get around the stupid emission standards that have lead to EVERYTHING being classified as a fullsize truck/suv and killed things like the compact truck?
CAFE standards were killed off this year by Trump, anyways.
Related Verge article:
Ford reveals breakthrough process for lower priced EVs
Perhaps too cynical of me but it sounds to me kind of like the “breakthrough” they made was figuring out that it’s more economical to build a line of EVs on top of a flexible platform than it is to treat EVs as one-off unicorns and/or compliance projects… something that EV proponents have been shouting from the rooftops for ages now.
To be clear, I welcome it and look forward to having more EVs on the market (especially options that support CarPlay/AA, unlike GM EVs), but really this should’ve been obvious.
I was thinking the same thing. "What was the secret, actually trying for once?" It honestly amazes me how much car manufacturers - not only Ford, but Ford especially - kept trying to delude themselves into thinking that we'd all be driving fossil fuel cars forever.
I think Ford might just be the slowest of the bunch, too. I looked on their website and they only have three EV models on the market, and only one of them is actually mass market (The Mustang Mach-e - The F-150 lightning arguably is too, but I don't know how wide the intersection between "wants a big giant inefficient truck" and "wants an EV" actualy is). In the meanwhile GM has about a dozen EV models in their 2026 lineup.
It kind of feels like a miracle that Ford is in business at all. Of the trucks I see on the road, they are very likely to be F-150s, but it's extremely rare to see that blue oval badge on any other type of car where I live. And among the people I socialize with, Ford is not known for their quality. Of the people who I have known who say they're fans of car brands, I haven't seen anyone who is a fan of the Ford brand since the 1990s.
I love my Ford Maverick. A lot has been said about how we finally have a small truck option again and that is a big part of the vehicle's success. But what impressed me that I don't see talked about is the user experience with the "cabin tech".
Every critical function can be controlled with physical buttons and knobs. Transport controls, radio tuning, climate control, etc. The only touch panel in sight is the touch screen itself, which can easily be relegated to CarPlay/Android Auto duty 100% of the time. The control cluster is coherently laid out and easy to use without looking.
It was one of the main deciding factors for me between this car and its closest competitor, the Hyundai Santa Cruz. Almost everything in the Hyundai not controlled through the touch screen is done so through a control cluster that is one big capacitive touch panel under the screen. To add insult to injury, that panel is glossy black 🤮
When it comes to reliability, Ford isn't the best, but it beats every other American auto brand.
This is no longer true on the 2025, sadly - they’ve removed climate controls (and weirdly there’s no physical play/pause button anywhere - even the steering wheel).
Still love my Maverick though. I would’ve 100% gone electric if they had a compact or midsize EV truck that was affordable.
I’ve only had two cars with touchscreens, a 2018 GTI and now a 2025 GR Corolla, and I don’t think either have had a physical play/pause button. The GTI paused if you turned the volume down to 0 with the steering wheel, though, and then played again once you turned it up, which worked fine enough.
It’s small, but it exists. Ford really sold these as “exactly like an F-150, but electric” and plenty of people, even boomers bought them in California because electricity is cheaper than gas and they could get rebates+incentives on them. Buuuut…
Well, let’s just say I hope that’s what they tried because it’s clear Ford didn’t care about or understand what people want in an EV when they designed that truck. It has, as you pointed out terrible efficiency, and low range, but also long charging times. So a bunch of people sold them back within a year or so of purchase, creating a large secondhand market.
So the market for them was and probably still is basically “cheap pickup I can haul my tools in and charge at the worksite”. If your commute distance is low enough or you’re onsite long enough, even L1 charging is fine.
I do know that there are people who own an F-150 Lightning and they're elated with it. I will say that I originally thought that the idea of electric trucks was kind of stupid because they will be inherently inefficient and have low range, but I have seen a number of them. It's hard to say how popular they really are, though, because the ones I see the most are the ones that stick out like a sore thumb (i.e. Rivian, Cybertruck). I've only really seen one F-150 lightning, but that's only because I have a neighbor who owns one and I saw it enough times that I realized it wasn't just another gas powered model.
Trucks are inherently inefficient, and towing doubly so. The only difference with gas is that in most of the country, gas stations are still more plentiful than high speed (100kw+) L3 charging stations, and most EV trucks still have much longer recharging times compared to the refueling time of an ICE truck.
But there are definitely people who do it anyways. What I’ve seen some people do is tow to a campground, stay there overnight and charge, then stop at another campground 100 miles or so later, repeating as necessary to get to their actual destination. Just kind of taking it slow and enjoying the journey, which doesn’t sound terrible tbh. I’ve also seen people tow short distance or light loads (like a jetski) just fine and charge whenever they get the opportunity.
But anyone looking to tow long distance the way you would tow with an ICE vehicle is going to have a bad time. That’s true of almost any EV truck, except possibly the Silverado EV, and even then you’d still need to plan your trip carefully.
For anyone interested in the performance of EV towing, Aging Wheels put out a video about it recently that really surprised me.
https://youtu.be/UmKf8smvGsA?si=ntMPGG5N57PFbZOr
Towing was nowhere near as detrimental as I expected. The whole idea that weight does not make much difference was so counter to what I was taught.
Assuming you're travelling on flat ground at a constant speed weight really doesn't make much difference - the increase in rolling resistance due to load is tiny in comparison to wind resistance at speed. You do have to exert more energy to get the greater weight up to speed in the first place but you only have to do that once in this scenario and from then on your energy output to maintain speed is basically all spent on fighting wind resistance whether loaded or unloaded. In the video he was doing highway loops in what looked like pretty flat country so I'm not surprised the weight didn't affect the numbers much.
Where weight will make a difference is when your route involves hills or if you are regularly having to vary your speed.
I was on a road trip with my partner the other day. I drive EVs, and I've been contemplating another EV for awhile now. I have no need for a truck, TBH. But every once in awhile I check in on the EV options in the segment. I, like most folks, have been socialized to think that "Towing is still not a good usecase for EVs".
I asked my partner to fire up an LLM to get some data and comparisons between EV and ICE trucks (we skipped diesel). In general, EV and ICE actually suffer pretty much the same range loss whilst towing. But the EV usually about a third of the energy that the ICE does. Sure, charging is a bit slower I fully grant that. And sure, the energy density of a battery today means the vehicle generally has a bit energy capacity than an ICE does with a fuel tank. So you're stopping more frequently.
But if efficiency of resource consumption is a thing you care about, towing with an EV wins.
Sorry I don't have all the figures in front of me. I was more or less dictating the questions and then being read the answers from the passenger seat. I was fascinating at the idea of normalizing gasoline down into energy units and then making a direct comparison. I had no real sense that an F-150 pickup loses ~46-120% of its range when towing a 7000lb object (which is roughly what the LLM was spitting out).
Finding out the "secret" in the same year the US completely slashes EV credits tells me there's some bad faith at play here. At best they see an oppurtinity as a major manufacturer where the American competition is stifled by costs. At worst there may be some backroom deals Ford "cracked the
Orangecode" on.In the middle, this may simply be fear for China's exploding market to break into the US eventually and Ford knows it needs to take advatadge of the market before BYD eats them whole (the CEO's impression of a Xiaomi test drive shows he knows the quality there).
Cynicism aside: I do welcome more EV's. Especially ones that are in some ballpark of "affordable". I wish they could get it down to $20,000 but even normal cars these days struggle to hit that mark.
This is earnings call lingo for “subscription revenue.”
Man the sedan and compact sedans are really dead in American automaking huh?
My kingdom for an EV Honda Civic killer! The fact that their internal only, proof of concept demo was a truck really tells you where their heads are at. I don’t think American automakers have car guys in them anymore. I think they’ve been fully taken over by truck guy snow. I think the only non-Tesla sedans out there right now are the Ioniq 6 and the Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes ones. The latter three are like $100k and the Ioniq 6, while nice, just doesn’t hold a candle in terms for build quality or looks or general “niceness” to the comparably priced Camry, Accord, or Sonata. I guess the family and compact economy sedans are just going to die.
Small hatches are pretty dead too, even in the broader US market, which I find really unfortunate because they’re so much more practical than sedans even if their looks don’t have as much appeal. The few that are still sold like the hatch variants of the Civic, Corolla, and Mazda 3 are closer to what used to be considered midsize and don’t do as well with making internal volume usable as older small hatches like the Fit and Matrix.
What’s crazy is they still sell really well in the used market. I just looked up a 2020 Honda Fit and it’s $20k for one with 50k miles. https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/3795445
That’s only $8k less than a BRAND NEW base trim Civic Hatchback. Clearly there is demand!
Yep. I’ve observed the same with Fits as well as other similar models, even the old ones as long as there’s any life left in them whatsoever. There’s clearly an underserved market here.
As a 2018 Honda Fit owner, this is good to know as I've been slowly considering a truck and debating on a trade.
I wish we had the Yaris here so badly (not for practical reasons, but I just want a GR Yaris instead of a GR Corolla
Ooh, is that a new name for cocaine? I like that more than the typo-less version.
Is this a US thing? Don't you get the cheaper Korean/French sedans and hatchbacks? Kia, Hyundai, Renault, Citroen and Peugeot all built relatively cheap EVs. Small and midsize hatchbacks, sedans, they all have offers in those segments.
Then there's the VW group, they have plenty below $100k - even inhouse, the ID.7 is cheaper than that (still expensive for what you get). Skoda, Seat and Cupra are part of the VW group and serve significantly lower prices than Audi/Porsche. They all have small EVs.
We don’t get Renault, Citroen, or Peugeot in the US (except sometimes as a rebadge under a different make). Nor do we get Skoda, Seat, or Cupra (personally, I’ve only ever heard of Skoda in the VW list).
Interesting. That should make the market for Kia, Hyundai and VW even more attractive - if Americans had any demand for hatchbacks or sedans.
For what it's worth, I think the EV6, IONIQ and Id.x are all perfectly good small-ish EVs.
Pitty. In the end, those are all EVs built on VW's MEB platform, but significantly cheaper than the respective Id.x VW sells under its own brand.
I’m sure everybody has different standards, but when I think “small” I think of something like the Honda Fit/Jazz, which is about 4110mm long. The EV6, which is 4695mm is in comparison quite long and feels more like what’s I’d classify as midsize. The EV6 would be an extremely tight fit in my garage (may barely not fit) while the Fit would be no problem at all.
I think the issue isn’t demand, but rather that automakers want to push you into buying something bigger and more expensive with much thicker profit margins. They’d much rather sell you an SUV with a bunch of bells and whistles they can use to justify charging you US$35k+ for than they would a basic small grocery grabber hatch that can’t realistically have a price tag greater than ~$24k and would sell best at $18-$20k.
Ah, I see what you mean. I also just realize that they don't sell the VW Id.3 in the US. Apparently almost everybody just decided that this market is not attractive for small hatchback EVs.
So the Kia Niro and the Chevy Bolt are holding the fort. There's also the Nissan Leaf and a Mini Cooper, but I wouldn't consider buying those...
VW also has a reputation here for being a huge maintenance headache. The spare parts are expensive, the certified mechanics are expensive. So even though it’s roughly on par with a Honda or Toyota at MSRP the cost of ownership ends up worse so the people who get them tend to be more enthusiasts going for the GTI/GLI types rather than things like the Polo (which we don’t even get here).
Also the Chevy Bolt has been discontinued so it really is just the Niro and the Leaf. Mini theoretically sells an EV but I have literally never seen one in real life and it’s their SUV sized thing rather than the Mini. They used to sell the Mini but it had like 50 miles of range and cost as much as a Fit. I don’t know who the market for that was.
Toyota’s BZ whatever was being leased for stupidly good deals for a while. So that was close, but it’s also more of a crossover than a sedan. I think if you want an EV sedan that’s affordable right now your best bet is a Prius plug-in hybrid. But then you’re not getting the reduced maintenance burden benefits of an EV.
There’s technically also the Fiat 500e, but it’s sold in the US at around $35k which is absurd. Might be a good model to pick up depreciated used off-lease units for, but there’s no way that car is worth $35k.
One I’d like to see make a comeback is the EV version of VW’s Golf. There was a “compliance car” version sold in the US from 2014-2019 with a pretty short range (IIRC around 100 miles in the later year models) but the cool thing is that it shared 90% of non-powertrain parts with the ICE Golf (which is still sold here) which made repairs easy and meant you could swap out its head unit freely, which isn’t possible on a lot of modern EVs.
There will probably be and Id.Golf in around 4-5 years, based on VW's Scalable Systems Platform (the future successor to the MEB-platform). But knowing VW, that car will not have many parts in common with old or current ICE Golfs, they're just going to reuse the legacy name. That's what all the German brands are now moving towards with their EVs.
Isn't that the ID.3?
Looks pretty similar, but it’s unfortunately not available in the US. The smallest EV VW sells here is the ID.4, which is closer to an SUV/crossover like the RAV4.
Polestar (Volvo) and Lucid both make EV sedans, neither would be considered affordable new, but you can get a used Polestar 2 in the $25k-30k range. That’s still not truly cheap, but it’s more approachable for the average person than 60-70k.
$30K... MSRP for the base model with spikes on the seats and so on? Dealer markups that Ford tut-tuts at but doesn't take any other actions...
Look, I'd love an electric Maverick but the Hybrid Maverick is good enough. Make an electric Focus or Fiesta. I dunno, not like I'd actively go after a Ford - I'm sure their actual market is into it.
The hybrid is good, but I believe they’re skating to where the puck is heading rather than where it is, and Chinese companies are starting to produce EVs with range well in excess of 500 miles (with claimed max mileage capping at 1200-1800 miles).
Once that kind of battery technology becomes widely available, hybrids will become largely redundant even in the US, where charging infrastructure is relatively poor. US automakers that aren’t ready with a full line of EVs to adopt that technology in will be in a bad spot.
Can you link to some of those long range EVs? I haven't heard of anything over 350 or so yet in reality, 1000+ sounds incredible.
Here you go. Probably not the best sources for each but it’s what turned up quickly.
https://www.autoblog.com/news/byd-unveils-new-plug-in-hybrid-tech-with-a-claimed-1200-mile-range
https://interestingengineering.com/energy/china-huawei-solid-state-ev-battery-1800-mile-range
Of course claims rarely pan out fully in real life, but even if real world range is 200-400 miles short of those claims, it’d still be insane and is an indicator of where things are going.
I wonder what the timeline was for this compared to the Slate EV truck being announced. There's always been a market for smaller light trucks, electric or otherwise, but it seems (to someone who doesn't pay a lot of attention to trucks) to have been kind of underserved for a long time.
Now we have two companies targeting that market, seems like a good thing.
Sooooo since it's an EV, does this finally get around the stupid emission standards that have lead to EVERYTHING being classified as a fullsize truck/suv and killed things like the compact truck?
I assume no as I believe the tesla S or Y is classified as an SUV "for tax reasons", but i'm hoping it can bring some sanity back to the market.
CAFE standards were killed off this year by Trump, anyways.