62 votes

There is no safe word: How the best-selling fantasy author Neil Gaiman hid the darkest parts of himself for decades

57 comments

  1. [29]
    DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    This was indepth and pretty well eliminates the "oh it was miscommunication around bdsm and like questionable but not necessarily wrong" narrative some folks have tried to argue. Sigh Don't have...

    This was indepth and pretty well eliminates the "oh it was miscommunication around bdsm and like questionable but not necessarily wrong" narrative some folks have tried to argue.

    Sigh Don't have heroes

    50 votes
    1. [7]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [2]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        I’m not entirely sure Palmer’s role in this is as remote as “enabling” to be honest. Comments like “I wish it was like the good old days when we could both fuck you” suggest she might have been a...

        I’m not entirely sure Palmer’s role in this is as remote as “enabling” to be honest. Comments like “I wish it was like the good old days when we could both fuck you” suggest she might have been a participant in the past.

        At the end of the article it mentions that Gaiman’s defense alleges this is a smear campaign by Palmer as part of their divorce proceedings, and while I don’t doubt Gaiman’s guilt and culpability I suspect that might be influencing not getting the same sorts of lurid details about her own actions except what we piece together from clues laying around.

        It’s very hard to imagine someone married to him wouldn’t know. And the fact that the straw that broke her back was the “was he wearing headphones” thing makes me think the SA wasn’t an issue for her. My initial read on the accusations was that this is a guy who got away with too much borderline stuff as he came up and it broke his ability to gauge appropriateness and boundaries. But this all makes it seem like he’s given in to much worse demons than that, especially the very flagrant and unambiguous violation of consent over the UTI thing and the fact that his kid had noticed enough to try and act out the master/slave dynamic with his nanny. If he was hiding that from Palmer I can’t imagine he’d be this reckless in front of their kid. Kids talk! A LOT!

        20 votes
        1. Plik
          Link Parent
          Definitely sounds like the wife grew a (very miniscule) conscience after having a kid. Sounds like she was on board with everything prior to that.

          Definitely sounds like the wife grew a (very miniscule) conscience after having a kid. Sounds like she was on board with everything prior to that.

          8 votes
      2. DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        Unfortunately plenty of women have aided and abetted abusive men. Palmer has a weird reputation and I know little about her otherwise so I can't even begin to speak to what she was thinking, but I...

        Unfortunately plenty of women have aided and abetted abusive men. Palmer has a weird reputation and I know little about her otherwise so I can't even begin to speak to what she was thinking, but I agree, it's even more upsetting.

        12 votes
      3. [3]
        elcuello
        Link Parent
        Most? I mean to quote the great Norm MacDonald: I thought it was the raping...

        The thing I found most deplorable about it was how his wife offered up a homeless, vulnerable young girl to Gaiman, knowing what would happen.

        Most? I mean to quote the great Norm MacDonald: I thought it was the raping...

        10 votes
        1. [3]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [2]
            elcuello
            Link Parent
            Yeah I understand you loud and clear and maybe it was kind of a cheap shot because I agree with you. Upon further reading about Amanda Palmer it just gets worse. Most noticeable (for me at least)...

            Yeah I understand you loud and clear and maybe it was kind of a cheap shot because I agree with you.

            Upon further reading about Amanda Palmer it just gets worse. Most noticeable (for me at least) is her faking her own suicide in front of her then boyfriend and using the secretly recorded audio of the incident on a song. The boyfriend later actually committed suicide although I have no knowledge if the two situations correlate.
            source

            10 votes
            1. [2]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. elcuello
                Link Parent
                Hey man no worries. I think a lot of us felt that way after reading that.

                Hey man no worries. I think a lot of us felt that way after reading that.

                3 votes
    2. [2]
      TheJorro
      Link Parent
      I've been a huge Gaiman fan for over 20 years. I feel sick to my stomach. I'm having difficulty reconciling that someone who could write the things he did, including his various blog posts and...

      I've been a huge Gaiman fan for over 20 years. I feel sick to my stomach. I'm having difficulty reconciling that someone who could write the things he did, including his various blog posts and Tweets, could also do the things described here. Not that I doubt the stories here at all, but his work just gave off an extremely different impression of what kind of person he was.

      16 votes
      1. DefinitelyNotAFae
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        What is frustrating, as someone who was also a fan, is how long the whisper network has apparently been in place against him without public statement. I don't fault any individual for not speaking...

        What is frustrating, as someone who was also a fan, is how long the whisper network has apparently been in place against him without public statement. I don't fault any individual for not speaking up, especially when going up against such a publicly progressive seeming, relatively powerful man with a lot of fans prior to all of this news.

        I've participated in those whisper networks in my LARPs myself, and every time I did try (with some success) at getting predators banned, they tried to get me banned too. So I know why whisper networks happen, to keep people safe from the broken stairs. But the lack of doing anything, collectively, lets the abuse happen for those who don't listen or don't heed the warnings. And especially when another woman is present, you think you have some safety...

        Yeah, it's just awful.

        20 votes
    3. [3]
      El_Capitan
      Link Parent
      It was definitely bad, but the main story focused on by the article actually did undermine a lot of it for me. You have these horrid descriptions of what unquestionably sounds like sexual abuse...

      It was definitely bad, but the main story focused on by the article actually did undermine a lot of it for me. You have these horrid descriptions of what unquestionably sounds like sexual abuse followed immediately by her messaging him and saying she's looking forward to more. From his point of view, that is not only consent, but encouragement, is it not? At one point she actively told him it was all consensual and that she enjoyed it.

      The article does a good job of describing the reasons behind those messages, but from his point of view... She repeatedly indicated she was into it.

      6 votes
      1. [2]
        sparksbet
        Link Parent
        I think you're being far too charitable to Gaiman here, to the extent that you're stretching the definition of "immediately" in his favor. I also think you're really downplaying the degree to...

        I think you're being far too charitable to Gaiman here, to the extent that you're stretching the definition of "immediately" in his favor. I also think you're really downplaying the degree to which he manipulated some of these responses -- the text in which she calls it consensual was in response to him probing her about it and seems obviously intended to bait reassurance from her so that he has it in writing.

        Moreover, the texts simply weren't the only information Gaiman would have access to (and, indeed, texts after the fact don't do much to inform him that she's consenting in the moment). Unless you straight-up doubt that the stories presented in the article represent what happened, I don't know how you could possibly come to the conclusion that a reasonable person in Gaiman's place would believe these encounters were consensual.

        23 votes
        1. DefinitelyNotAFae
          Link Parent
          This, the time for consent was during the acts where she said no. Repeatedly. He wasn't confused.

          This, the time for consent was during the acts where she said no. Repeatedly.

          He wasn't confused.

          21 votes
    4. [17]
      Queresote
      Link Parent
      Fictional heroes from long-dead media will never let you down.

      Sigh Don't have heroes

      Fictional heroes from long-dead media will never let you down.

      16 votes
      1. [14]
        DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        I remain unconvinced.

        I remain unconvinced.

        16 votes
        1. rosco
          Link Parent
          I have yet to be let down by Doc Ricketts. I'm not sure he is a "hero" per say, but the way he is presented by Steinbeck makes me think he's the kind of person that could fit in to any time period...

          I have yet to be let down by Doc Ricketts. I'm not sure he is a "hero" per say, but the way he is presented by Steinbeck makes me think he's the kind of person that could fit in to any time period without having to worry about keeping up with morals of the time. He strikes me as someone who would be happy to call people by their preferred pronouns today without a second beat - which some folks in our own world struggle with. Not that it's a perfect character test, it's just the first thing I think of when I imagine dropping folks from the past into our current debates.

          Others though, woof, long-dead media is riddled with heros that wouldn't fair well in today's society, much less if we continue to progress.

          7 votes
        2. [13]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [11]
            DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            I don't know anything about this character or this property and thus it's lost on me.

            I don't know anything about this character or this property and thus it's lost on me.

            7 votes
            1. [6]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                Link Parent
                Ok, I guess. I have no emotional connection and thus no sense of him being a "perfect hero" but it's so out of context as to be just a weird pull here afaict. 乁( •_• )ㄏ

                Ok, I guess. I have no emotional connection and thus no sense of him being a "perfect hero" but it's so out of context as to be just a weird pull here afaict.

                乁⁠(⁠ ⁠•⁠_⁠•⁠ ⁠)⁠ㄏ

                8 votes
              2. [4]
                GenuinelyCrooked
                Link Parent
                I haven't played the game yet, but I do know that he's a cop, so I am incredibly suspicious of him on that basis alone.

                I haven't played the game yet, but I do know that he's a cop, so I am incredibly suspicious of him on that basis alone.

                8 votes
                1. [3]
                  sparksbet
                  Link Parent
                  He is a phenomenally well-written character (and in any other context, I'd thoroughly encourage you to play the game) but I think bringing up well-written characters from fiction, even admirable...

                  He is a phenomenally well-written character (and in any other context, I'd thoroughly encourage you to play the game) but I think bringing up well-written characters from fiction, even admirable ones, is still out of place in this thread. Particularly when the perpetrator in this case was the one who wrote many great characters, I don't buy the argument that you're safe from this kind of fallout by constraining yourself to fictional heroes.

                  9 votes
                  1. [2]
                    GenuinelyCrooked
                    Link Parent
                    You're right. It was out of place in this context and I shouldn't have participated in it. I'd mark my own comment as noise if that was an option. I'm leaving it up to preserve context but I'll...

                    You're right. It was out of place in this context and I shouldn't have participated in it. I'd mark my own comment as noise if that was an option. I'm leaving it up to preserve context but I'll delete it if anyone would prefer that.

                    3 votes
                    1. sparksbet
                      Link Parent
                      I don't think you did anything wrong, my grudge is more with the up-thread discussion that sparked this than your comment. I think ultimately the people bringing up specific fictional characters...

                      I don't think you did anything wrong, my grudge is more with the up-thread discussion that sparked this than your comment. I think ultimately the people bringing up specific fictional characters as heroes or not are missing the point and being a bit gauche.

                      5 votes
            2. [6]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. [5]
                DefinitelyNotAFae
                Link Parent
                You can quote random properties with nonsensical references to someone else, thanks. This is deeply off topic in this thread and does nothing to contradict my statement or convince me of anything.

                You can quote random properties with nonsensical references to someone else, thanks. This is deeply off topic in this thread and does nothing to contradict my statement or convince me of anything.

                10 votes
                1. [5]
                  Comment deleted by author
                  Link Parent
                  1. [4]
                    Drynyn
                    Link Parent
                    I think the issue is that it is noise, not signal, which this place is adverse to. (It's why we have the noise labels). If you had added the link and some commentary relevant to the discussion...

                    I think the issue is that it is noise, not signal, which this place is adverse to. (It's why we have the noise labels).

                    If you had added the link and some commentary relevant to the discussion then it would have been ok.

                    7 votes
                    1. [3]
                      DefinitelyNotAFae
                      Link Parent
                      Yep, a picture that meant nothing to me and a quote with zero context that also meant nothing to me. Particularly on a really serious topic. It was neither conveyed who the person was nor why they...

                      Yep, a picture that meant nothing to me and a quote with zero context that also meant nothing to me. Particularly on a really serious topic.

                      It was neither conveyed who the person was nor why they were actually a "perfect hero" and thus conversation was impossible.

                      6 votes
                      1. [3]
                        Comment deleted by author
                        Link Parent
                        1. [2]
                          DefinitelyNotAFae
                          (edited )
                          Link Parent
                          I understand the attempt in the first post, but your quote was so out of context it was neither whimsical nor useful for any sort of conversation and this isn't the sort of topic where I...

                          I understand the attempt in the first post, but your quote was so out of context it was neither whimsical nor useful for any sort of conversation and this isn't the sort of topic where I personally am looking for whimsy. Perhaps others are, which is why I am encouraging you to direct that effort towards them.

                          Even if I were wanting to talk about such things here, your post gave me nothing to work with and by proxy left me with overall a more negative impression of the character and work. The quote isn't even useful in the slightest, nor whimsical IMO, but perhaps that's the lack of context. Seems pretty anti-whim.

                          Whimsy has its place, I've cursed people with a damp spot on their left sock for a reason. But you missed the mark with me and likely with most of the room, but I can't speak for them.

                          Adding an edit so as not to ping hungariantoast: I'm not actually upset, just wasn't finding it whimsical. You're good, I won't reply.

                          1 vote
                          1. hungariantoast
                            Link Parent
                            Again, I am sorry if I upset you, and I've gone ahead and deleted everything I posted in this comment thread. Please leave me alone about this now

                            Again, I am sorry if I upset you, and I've gone ahead and deleted everything I posted in this comment thread. Please leave me alone about this now

          2. CptBluebear
            Link Parent
            It was so difficult to ever lie to Kim.

            It was so difficult to ever lie to Kim.

            3 votes
      2. [2]
        balooga
        Link Parent
        I thought Picard was a safe choice too…..

        I thought Picard was a safe choice too…..

        4 votes
        1. updawg
          Link Parent
          I wouldn't call TNG long dead, particularly considering that most people involved are still alive.

          I wouldn't call TNG long dead, particularly considering that most people involved are still alive.

          6 votes
  2. RoyalHenOil
    Link
    My partner met Neil Gaiman in the 00s (at the time, he had never heard of Neil Gaiman and did not know he was famous) and took a strong disliking to him. My partner is a generally very good judge...

    My partner met Neil Gaiman in the 00s (at the time, he had never heard of Neil Gaiman and did not know he was famous) and took a strong disliking to him.

    My partner is a generally very good judge of character, but he is slow to form judgements; he gives people the benefit of the doubt and usually only comes to a conclusion after knowing them for an extended period of time, so it is noteworthy to me that he developed such a strong repulsion to Neil Gaiman so quickly. Indeed, Neil Gaiman left such a strong impression on my partner that he brought it up while we were still in the early stages of dating, even though I myself had never read anything by the author and barely knew who he was. So one of my first impressions of my partner was that he just really, really did not like Neil Gaiman — not on the basis of his writing (which my partner admitted was good, though he felt uncomfortable reading it) but on the basis of who he is as a person: arrogant, pushy, unempathetic.

    So I was disappointed, but not the least bit surprised, when it turned out that Neil Gaiman is a terrible person. I believe the allegations completely.

    32 votes
  3. [6]
    ChingShih
    (edited )
    Link
    I don't know if there's a mechanism on here for Trigger Warnings, but the article certainly needs one. So does my comment. (Edit: Thanks for adding nsfw.tw and abuse.sexual! That is neat and I...

    I don't know if there's a mechanism on here for Trigger Warnings, but the article certainly needs one. So does my comment. (Edit: Thanks for adding nsfw.tw and abuse.sexual! That is neat and I hope they're useful tags for people!)

    (Trigger warning/SA discussion) When the article got to the bathtub part and she didn't immediately run away...

    ...I knew she had been abused before. That freeze response, that uncertainty of what to do in a bad, uncomfortable, wrong situation is common in many people who have been victims of some kind of abuse (physical, sexual, etc.).

    When encountering a situation akin to one where they had been violated in the past, often by an authority figure or a person in their life that they're meant to trust implicitly, they just can't do what might seem natural or rational to the rest of us. The abuse and the enduring trauma that survivors have to live with has programmed that out of them. Some people might not understand how someone wouldn't act in the rational way -- to get out of the tub, run away, call for help, fight back -- but that's why. The person can't work out what they're supposed to do in that situation; everything is a mess, senses and emotions become numb, dissociation can occur.

    That's why these allegations are believable and why I believe allegations when there is this same pattern of victimization.

    28 votes
    1. DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      I just want to second that if someone isn't up for reading the article, don't feel like you have to. It's bad. It's legitimately bad and every individual does not have to "bear witness" to...

      I just want to second that if someone isn't up for reading the article, don't feel like you have to. It's bad. It's legitimately bad and every individual does not have to "bear witness" to everything. It's ok to walk away.

      33 votes
    2. [2]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      The usual convention with trigger warnings is to use the collapsing hidden text with the trigger in the summary. <details> <summary>Click to view the hidden text</summary> Here's all the hidden...

      The usual convention with trigger warnings is to use the collapsing hidden text with the trigger in the summary.

      <details>
      <summary>Click to view the hidden text</summary>
      
      Here's all the hidden text.
      
      It can have **markdown** in it too.
      </details>
      
      8 votes
      1. sparksbet
        Link Parent
        Not really possible to do for a link post itself, though -- I suppose it would be better to leave a comment letting people know about triggering content (and this article, while really good, does...

        Not really possible to do for a link post itself, though -- I suppose it would be better to leave a comment letting people know about triggering content (and this article, while really good, does not pull punches in describing a lot of awful stuff).

        6 votes
    3. TheMeerkat
      Link Parent
      Unless it was added after this comment, the article does have this before any triggering text: Editor’s note: This story contains content that readers may find disturbing, including graphic...

      but the article certainly needs one.

      Unless it was added after this comment, the article does have this before any triggering text:
      Editor’s note: This story contains content that readers may find disturbing, including graphic allegations of sexual assault.

      4 votes
    4. lou
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      The mechanism for trigger warnings are the tags. This post has the abuse.sexual tag which can serve as a trigger warning, and people can add it to the filtered tags so they never see that kind of...

      The mechanism for trigger warnings are the tags. This post has the abuse.sexual tag which can serve as a trigger warning, and people can add it to the filtered tags so they never see that kind of post.

      EDIT: This post also has the nsfw.tw tag.

      6 votes
  4. krellor
    Link
    This was a fairly icky read all things considered. I don't follow celebrities personal lives, so wasn't aware of Gaiman's background as a child within scientology. It sounds like he may have...

    This was a fairly icky read all things considered. I don't follow celebrities personal lives, so wasn't aware of Gaiman's background as a child within scientology. It sounds like he may have internalized some unhealthy things and gone on to abuse others, enabled by his celebrity and money. But who knows.

    I wish the best for the victims of abuse and hope they get to a healthy point in life.

    23 votes
  5. [3]
    norb
    Link
    Gaiman has published a response on his blog. (Full text in the box below) Personally, I find this to be an non-apology and honestly doesn't make any of this better. There appears to be little to...

    Gaiman has published a response on his blog. (Full text in the box below)

    Personally, I find this to be an non-apology and honestly doesn't make any of this better. There appears to be little to no remorse, or really any examination of why people are accusing him at this point. Just a reiteration of "Everything was consensual and some of it is made up."

    Click to expand his full blog post - nothing graphic but I'm hiding it in case others would rather not read the words of an alleged sexual abuser Breaking the Silence

    Posted by Neil Gaiman at 10:20 AM

    Over the past many months, I have watched the stories circulating the internet about me with horror and dismay. I’ve stayed quiet until now, both out of respect for the people who were sharing their stories and out of a desire not to draw even more attention to a lot of misinformation. I've always tried to be a private person, and felt increasingly that social media was the wrong place to talk about important personal matters. I've now reached the point where I feel that I should say something.

    As I read through this latest collection of accounts, there are moments I half-recognise and moments I don’t, descriptions of things that happened sitting beside things that emphatically did not happen. I’m far from a perfect person, but I have never engaged in non-consensual sexual activity with anyone. Ever.

    I went back to read the messages I exchanged with the women around and following the occasions that have subsequently been reported as being abusive. These messages read now as they did when I received them – of two people enjoying entirely consensual sexual relationships and wanting to see one another again. At the time I was in those relationships, they seemed positive and happy on both sides.

    And I also realise, looking through them, years later, that I could have and should have done so much better. I was emotionally unavailable while being sexually available, self-focused and not as thoughtful as I could or should have been. I was obviously careless with people's hearts and feelings, and that's something that I really, deeply regret. It was selfish of me. I was caught up in my own story and I ignored other people's.

    I’ve spent some months now taking a long, hard look at who I have been and how I have made people feel.

    Like most of us, I’m learning, and I'm trying to do the work needed, and I know that that's not an overnight process. I hope that with the help of good people, I'll continue to grow. I understand that not everyone will believe me or even care what I say but I’ll be doing the work anyway, for myself, my family and the people I love. I will be doing my very best to deserve their trust, as well as the trust of my readers.

    At the same time, as I reflect on my past – and as I re-review everything that actually happened as opposed to what is being alleged – I don't accept there was any abuse. To repeat, I have never engaged in non-consensual sexual activity with anyone.

    Some of the horrible stories now being told simply never happened, while others have been so distorted from what actually took place that they bear no relationship to reality. I am prepared to take responsibility for any missteps I made. I’m not willing to turn my back on the truth, and I can't accept being described as someone I am not, and cannot and will not admit to doing things I didn't do.

    12 votes
    1. [2]
      sparksbet
      Link Parent
      Yeah, I think it's carefully written but it ultimately falls flat. There are too many accusers with similar stories, and the fact that he had two of them sign NDAs that they broke to share this is...

      Yeah, I think it's carefully written but it ultimately falls flat. There are too many accusers with similar stories, and the fact that he had two of them sign NDAs that they broke to share this is telling imo. This statement doesn't change my opinion of him at all (other than questioning whether he asked his lawyers before posting it; though I doubt he'll experience any legal consequences here, just reputation damage).

      18 votes
      1. norb
        Link Parent
        I agree 100% with all you said. This is very "carefully" written, and the NDA aspect also speaks volumes. And I think there is absolutely no way this was written and published without input from...

        I agree 100% with all you said. This is very "carefully" written, and the NDA aspect also speaks volumes. And I think there is absolutely no way this was written and published without input from his attorneys -- he is in the middle of a divorce proceeding and there's no way they would allow him to write something more forceful if it wasn't air tight. I am reading between the lines on a lot of this, but it all kind of points to the same thing - he knows deep down what he was doing.

        All in all, this reads like a shitty PR spin and doubling down of his previous comments. I would have preferred he just stay silent. This makes me think he's absolutely guilty and knows it - he just wants to save face (which, honestly, that ship probably already sailed for a lot of his fans).

        10 votes
  6. Bet
    Link
    Awful stuff. I’m on the periphery of the Good Omens fandom over on Tumblr, and the reactions and discussions about this article have been blowing up. Gaiman was such a huge and active presence...

    Awful stuff.

    I’m on the periphery of the Good Omens fandom over on Tumblr, and the reactions and discussions about this article have been blowing up. Gaiman was such a huge and active presence over there for so many years, so it was such a shock to the community when the initial accusations began rolling in and his profile went silent, and now this.

    Yet again do the fans of an artist find themselves grappling with the reality of the human behind the art. It’s a hard paradigm to confront.

    12 votes
  7. boxer_dogs_dance
    Link
    I came to Gaiman because of Pratchett and Good Omens which I loved. I read and enjoyed American Gods and Ananci Boys but most of his work I would pick up, consider buying or borrowing and then...

    I came to Gaiman because of Pratchett and Good Omens which I loved. I read and enjoyed American Gods and Ananci Boys but most of his work I would pick up, consider buying or borrowing and then leave on the shelf. I did read and enjoy Ocean at the end of the Lane for Tildes book club.

    When this content started to surface a year or so ago, I thought it was typical sexual overreach by a celebrity. I did not imagine coercive bdsm rape. This reminds me of when I learned about Marian zimmer bradley but she was already dead.

    6 votes
  8. [6]
    The_Chemist
    Link
    This is so incredibly sad. Some of his books have been extremely influential to my life and I do not want to lose that. How does a person reconcile this? I mean, I don't have to pay anything, I...

    This is so incredibly sad. Some of his books have been extremely influential to my life and I do not want to lose that. How does a person reconcile this? I mean, I don't have to pay anything, I already own the books. But how do you shake off that "ick factor"?

    5 votes
    1. DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you put them up for a while. Sometimes you find the things that you've made yours and say sod the rest. I've taken my love for Ender's Game as a child and set it...

      Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you put them up for a while. Sometimes you find the things that you've made yours and say sod the rest. I've taken my love for Ender's Game as a child and set it gently in a box under glass. It doesn't get to grow anymore but I'm unwilling to smash it fully.

      15 votes
    2. asciipip
      Link Parent
      I think you can acknowledge the way a story hit you at a particular point in your life while accepting that it hits you differently now, but it can take time to work through that. I've been...

      I think you can acknowledge the way a story hit you at a particular point in your life while accepting that it hits you differently now, but it can take time to work through that.

      I've been through all sorts of variations of this. When I was a kid, we had records of Bill Cosby routines that I listened to incessantly. I still have internal mental shorthands for particular emotional responses that are rooted in one of his jokes or another. It took a while for me to come to terms with the dissonance between who I was then and who I now know him to have been at the time. Now, when I say, “C'mon, chicken heart,” to myself, I do it with the understanding that it's a reference to my childhood and not in any way honoring a serial rapist, but that's an understanding that was years in the making.

      I got really into the music of Moxy Früvous in my twenties and only learned a decade or so later of one member's multiple sexual assaults. Their music still hits some specific emotional inflection points for me, but it's also just tinged with sadness because I now know what was going on at the time.

      I loved the Harry Potter books in my late twenties and early thirties. I don't think they were as formative for me as for some younger people, but I was certainly absorbed into the storytelling and the fandom. JK Rowling's rampant transphobia (plus some critical reassessment of some of the consistent themes in the books) have soured me on her and the franchise, but I'll always have had those fond experiences reading them.

      For me, these revelations about Neil Gaiman feel like they'll pretty permanently tarnish for me the works of an author whose stuff has resonated deeply with me for decades. I'm still in the early stages of grieving this loss. It feels absurd in some ways to talk about my loss, when he's inflicted a lot of suffering and misery on other human beings, but it's still a loss. I'll never be able to read his works—or even contemplate them, really—without thinking about what horrible things he's done. My loss pales in comparison to others' hurt, but it's still loss. I've moved his books from the place of pride on my living room shelves into a shelf in the corner of the basement (and finally got around to doing the same for my Harry Potter books a couple shelves below the Gaiman books). I replaced them with books from other authors who've meant a lot to me—J. R. R. Tolkien, Ursula Le Guin, Iain M. Banks, China Miéville, and others. It's mostly symbolic, but symbolism helps us process feelings like grief.

      9 votes
    3. hungariantoast
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      What's there to reconcile? Author's bad. His books are good. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that. If you struggle to separate them, then re-read the books. You'll probably reform your...

      What's there to reconcile? Author's bad. His books are good. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

      If you struggle to separate them, then re-read the books. You'll probably reform your opinion of the books, and their value to you (one way or another), if you re-read them with a different understanding of the author.

      Like someone I know, who's a pretty vehement leftist, but also adores Harry Potter, told me once how her experience of re-reading the series while knowing its author is a huge transphobe, actually made her appreciate the books more.

      Might seem weird, but I think it's valuable, because re-reading books by disgraced authors can be a new experience with an old work. It's a rare opportunity to almost read it again for the first time. It turns everything on its head, "resets the stage" so to speak. It makes space for new ideas.

      9 votes
    4. sparksbet
      Link Parent
      I think the "ick factor" is something that you have to decide for yourself how you'll deal with. It hurts a lot, I think, when bad people make good art that resonates with us a lot, because art is...

      I think the "ick factor" is something that you have to decide for yourself how you'll deal with. It hurts a lot, I think, when bad people make good art that resonates with us a lot, because art is so personal. It's ultimately gonna depend on you whether you can still have a relationship with that art knowing what the person behind it did. Some people can, others can't. When there's no risk of signaling public support for their deeds or supporting them financially, as seems to be the case for you, it's really entirely a personal journey and a personal choice.

      6 votes
    5. tanglisha
      Link Parent
      I think it's a lot harder when the person in question is still alive and actively creating the content you enjoy. I don't have any answers, but I do know that some beloved authors have been...

      I think it's a lot harder when the person in question is still alive and actively creating the content you enjoy.

      I don't have any answers, but I do know that some beloved authors have been terrible people. I also know that no person is just one thing, we are multifaceted. A person can be kind and good in one way and horrible in another. I have to believe that at least some things created by a person who did very bad things can be good, otherwise we fall into sins of the father territory.

      Is a person part of what they create, or separate? Some combination? If I enjoy a book from an author that is long gone but turned out to do bad things, what does that say about me? I don't think it says anything except that I enjoyed a book.

      I haven't been able to bring myself to read any of the Harry Potter books again since Rowling has made it clear who she really is. This ended up leading me toward her influences, who I did end up enjoying.

      I think we can separate a person from what they create and enjoy the creation, but that's a lot easier to do when we don't feel like we're helping them continue to do bad things. On the other hand, boycotting TV shows and movies effect many people, not just the one problematic person. It certainly does send a message, but Hollywood doesn't always receive the same message we are trying to send.

      I don't think there is a right answer. If something makes you feel bad, maybe step back from it. There are a lot of authors out there to enjoy without causing you any distress. There are certainly ways to consume works that don't benefit the author, the library is full of books and videos that are already paid for whether you consume them or not.

      1 vote
  9. [5]
    shrike
    Link
    The sad thing is that because of this we won’t be getting more of Sandman or Good Omens. Hundreds of people will be looking for new jobs because the author has been an asshole for a few decades.

    The sad thing is that because of this we won’t be getting more of Sandman or Good Omens. Hundreds of people will be looking for new jobs because the author has been an asshole for a few decades.

    7 votes
    1. [2]
      mordae
      Link Parent
      The thing is, I have read Good Omens multiple times as well as practically all of Terry Pratchett and a ton of Neil Gaiman and I always had this feeling that there is very little Gaiman in Good...

      The thing is, I have read Good Omens multiple times as well as practically all of Terry Pratchett and a ton of Neil Gaiman and I always had this feeling that there is very little Gaiman in Good Omens. It always felt like polished Johnny to me. I've stopped reading Gaiman after figuring out that he just, unlike Terry Pratchett, bores me.

      9 votes
      1. TheJorro
        Link Parent
        They've talked about it a bunch. Terry did much of the writing but Gaiman did much of the story. The partnership was basically a way for Pratchett to show Gaiman how to write a novel and...

        They've talked about it a bunch. Terry did much of the writing but Gaiman did much of the story. The partnership was basically a way for Pratchett to show Gaiman how to write a novel and transition out of comics.

        9 votes
    2. Arlen
      Link Parent
      I get what you mean, but your phrasing just keeps making me think of this Norm MacDonald quote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9wLAFuAi4U

      The sad thing is...

      I get what you mean, but your phrasing just keeps making me think of this Norm MacDonald quote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9wLAFuAi4U

      7 votes
    3. GenuinelyCrooked
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Last I heard there will be a Good Omens "season 3" but it will be one 90 minute episode. Gaimain will not be involved so you can watch without guilt. I waited 18 years to see Azerophael and...

      Last I heard there will be a Good Omens "season 3" but it will be one 90 minute episode. Gaimain will not be involved so you can watch without guilt.

      I waited 18 years to see Azerophael and Crowley kiss and I need plot resolution, damn it.

      Edit: since this is my only comment in the thread I want to add that my access to content that I enjoy is so distant from these awful crimes in terms of importance that it hardly bears thinking on. I just don't have anything else to say about Gaiman besides being horrified by him.

      5 votes
  10. [3]
    unkz
    Link
    This doesn’t bode well for season 2 of sandman.

    This doesn’t bode well for season 2 of sandman.

    3 votes
    1. mat
      Link Parent
      Season 2 is going ahead. Season 3+ likely not, and season 2 of Dead Boy Detectives is already in the can. I have friends who worked on those shows and I'm so mad about it. Sandman was actually...

      Season 2 is going ahead. Season 3+ likely not, and season 2 of Dead Boy Detectives is already in the can.

      I have friends who worked on those shows and I'm so mad about it. Sandman was actually good and I never expected there to be even a tolerable Sandman adaptation, let alone a great one. And now it'll probably never get finished, despite there being so many people on the projects who aren't Neil Gaiman who have put in countless hours of hard work and energy. They could have just gone ahead without letting Gaiman be compensated financially (I believe he even suggested that), but no. I do get it. Gaiman absolutely doesn't deserve any more work, and nobody should have to share a production office or set with him. But he's just a fraction of these kind of productions and is far from a necessary part (he's a terrible screenwriter anyway) and lots of other people do deserve the work, and Sandman deserves a good screen adaptation.

      I do appreciate the cancellation of some of my personal entertainment is a tiny, tiny drop in the ocean of shit Gaiman has caused but still.

      10 votes
    2. fidwell
      Link Parent
      It finished filming last summer; I doubt it'll get canned this late in production.

      It finished filming last summer; I doubt it'll get canned this late in production.

      2 votes