103 votes

If we want a shift to walking, we need to prioritize dignity

64 comments

  1. [43]
    scroll_lock
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    Strong Towns' recent article on the experience of walking highlights one of the most important philosophical shifts we have to make in understanding transportation: walking has to be dignified....

    Strong Towns' recent article on the experience of walking highlights one of the most important philosophical shifts we have to make in understanding transportation: walking has to be dignified.

    The current state of American pedestrian infrastructure often relegates walkers to the sides of busy roads with no protection from vehicles, nor with any thought given to making the walk a positive one. Even worse, many roads have no pedestrian infrastructure to speak of: that which does exist is frequently not accessible to people in wheelchairs or people who have visual/auditory disabilities.

    The article discusses three key concepts in pedestrian infrastructure:

    • Compliance: infrastructure has to exist, and it has to meet ADA regulations
    • Safety: design facilities safely and address perceptions of safety
    • Dignity: make walking feel both normal and pleasant

    I really like the example the author gives about dignity to test whether infrastructure is truly great:

    If you were driving past and saw a friend walking or rolling there, what would your first thought be:

    1. “Oh, no, Henry’s car must have broken down! I better offer him a ride.”
    2. “Oh, looks like Henry’s out for a walk! I should text him later.”

    This is a surprisingly good test. Picture seeing your friend on a leafy sidewalk versus walking along a 45 mph suburban arterial. What would you think intuitively?

    Shade, light, convenience, enclosure from traffic (perceived or physical), adequate proportions/widths, and visually engaging frontages are all key ways to improve the walkability of a path. The article goes into more depth about each of these.

    The key takeaway is this: "a pedestrian cannot live on compliance alone." For walking to be great, it can't just do the bare minimum. If we want our towns and cities to be great places to live, we have to put in some effort to design them that way!

    50 votes
    1. [15]
      Jakobeha
      Link Parent
      I don’t understand why the author uses the word “dignity” and not “fun”. Everything described is how to make walking comfortable (more shade), convenient (closer locations), and enjoyable (more,...

      I don’t understand why the author uses the word “dignity” and not “fun”.

      Everything described is how to make walking comfortable (more shade), convenient (closer locations), and enjoyable (more, better scenery): i.e. fun. Dignity makes it seem like walking is embarrassing, but it’s really not (at least IMO); the issue is that everything is way too far away, and everywhere in between is boring houses and roads and loud cars (and sometimes there aren’t even sidewalks).

      Yes, walking isn’t normalized, but I don’t think that’s what the author meant, since making walking fun is how it gets normalized. Everyone walks and bikes around in small, pretty towns because it’s more convenient and enjoyable than driving; if we made it more convenient and enjoyable in cities (e.g. by adding bike lanes replacing roads with walkable areas), people would start walking too.

      22 votes
      1. [5]
        jackson
        Link Parent
        I think dignity is also a good term. I've applied for jobs without having a car in Texas, and the hiring manager seemed interested in me, invested in the conversation, overall good body language....

        I think dignity is also a good term. I've applied for jobs without having a car in Texas, and the hiring manager seemed interested in me, invested in the conversation, overall good body language.

        Then he asked how I planned to get to work. Fortunately I lived only ~1.5mi away, so I mentioned that I would be walking to work, while sometimes catching rides from family and friends. As soon as I mentioned walking to work (and not having a car in general), the interview was basically over. There was an immediate tone shift, and I left knowing I didn't get the job.

        The walk wouldn't have been particularly pleasant, but it wasn't a big deal to me at the time as I had previously worked jobs such as lifeguard that already required being out in the Texas sun and heat all day (as a lifeguard you actually don't get in the water very often).

        Shifting this kind of social attitude would be considered making walking more dignified, in my opinion. I'm sure others on this site have experienced similar, whether they walk or take the bus in non transit-oriented places.

        41 votes
        1. [4]
          Akir
          Link Parent
          It sucks that you didn't get your job at the time, but I can understand why a boss might think the way they did. Having briefly visited Texas, it really is a pedestrian hellscape. Not necessarily...

          It sucks that you didn't get your job at the time, but I can understand why a boss might think the way they did. Having briefly visited Texas, it really is a pedestrian hellscape. Not necessarily because it's hot, but because everything is just so incredibly far apart, and the terrain you'd have to walk on generally isn't going to be friendly to walk on unless you're in the heart of one of the big cities. But even the cities are sprawling and wide. I mean, just look at how big your gas stations are!

          10 votes
          1. [3]
            updawg
            Link Parent
            I agree that Texas is a hellscape, but referencing Buc-ee's is like saying "just look at your parks!" with a picture of Disneyland.

            I agree that Texas is a hellscape, but referencing Buc-ee's is like saying "just look at your parks!" with a picture of Disneyland.

            9 votes
            1. [2]
              Akir
              Link Parent
              That part was meant as a joke, in case that wasn't clear.

              That part was meant as a joke, in case that wasn't clear.

              3 votes
              1. updawg
                Link Parent
                The thought crossed my mind because it was the kind of joke I'd make but I'm just not used to other people sticking jokes like that into their serious comments lol

                The thought crossed my mind because it was the kind of joke I'd make but I'm just not used to other people sticking jokes like that into their serious comments lol

                5 votes
      2. [6]
        Sodliddesu
        Link Parent
        There's a song from the early 80s called Walking In LA all about how nobody who's anybody walks anywhere in L.A. All this wrapped in a Western viewpoint where 'fun' isn't the priority. Status is....

        There's a song from the early 80s called Walking In LA all about how nobody who's anybody walks anywhere in L.A.

        All this wrapped in a Western viewpoint where 'fun' isn't the priority. Status is. If you saw Bill Gates walking in the grass on the side of a standard American road, you'd never wonder if he was having fun or not. I'm not trying to have fun on my commute, just get from point a to point b. Fun has nothing to do with getting my groceries home from the store. But I don't want people to think I'm poor while I'm doing those things and in the US, poor people walk or take the bus.

        So, if so of a sudden walking was considered a dignified way of getting around, I might be inclined to do it.

        Now, this isn't my person opinion on walking but having gone to pick up cat litter from the store on my bike I can certainly say it wasn't the most dignified trip in the world, having to hoist my bike over curbs and quickly remount it as my only way of dodging six lanes of traffic. I must've looked pretty silly. It was fun though - despite the challenges - and I'd love to expand the amount of my errands I do on bike.

        But I sure would've loved a simple bike lane.

        21 votes
        1. [5]
          lackofaname
          Link Parent
          I do agree with what you're saying, except I think additionally 'fun' (or, maybe pleasantness is a better word) absolutely elevates the experience, and is an important aspect of enticing people to...

          I'm not trying to have fun on my commute, just get from point a to point b. Fun has nothing to do with getting my groceries home from the store.

          I do agree with what you're saying, except I think additionally 'fun' (or, maybe pleasantness is a better word) absolutely elevates the experience, and is an important aspect of enticing people to walk. I'm thinking sort of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, where 'dignity' (basic infrastructure, safety, removal of barriers) is the bare minimum, and then 'fun' (route options, surrounding aesthetic, etc.) is the next level up.

          I've been fortunate enough to live in a large, walkable city. For a couple years, I had a job that was a 30 minute walk through various neighbourhoods and parks. In poor weather, I had the option to walk through underground tunnels for a lot of my commute.

          The walk helped me clear my head before and after work. Catching the regular sights, passing regular faces, and feeling the bustle (or alternatively, the joy of slipping into quiet side-routes) felt great. Occasionally, I'd walk with a co-worker and transformed a boring commute into something social.

          Sure, I only did the walk because I had to get from point A to B, but all these 'fun' aspects of it shifted it from a slog to something I looked forward to as part of my daily routine.

          I think providing a means to make the experience pleasant, and not simply possible, is very important in conferring that sense of status.

          8 votes
          1. [2]
            Sodliddesu
            Link Parent
            Right, but if we don't even have dignity in most places (of the US) then we should work on that first. Telling motorists to tear down two lanes on their current commute means more traffic, if they...

            Right, but if we don't even have dignity in most places (of the US) then we should work on that first. Telling motorists to tear down two lanes on their current commute means more traffic, if they don't even see pedestrians as anything other than a burden, that's met with disdain. Then we can't even get over the first step in terms of needs.

            Hence the dignity focus. You don't feel lesser walking on the streets in Seoul because everyone is. Walk on the streets in Dallas (except for leisure walking trails) and you look crazy, homeless or both.

            That's the barrier for the most part. Walking being a leisure activity means you 'shouldn't' be doing it to and from work. Making more 'fun' paths, in a US mindset, means that they should be for leisure not getting places. So cities design 'nature' trails instead of walk ways.

            6 votes
            1. lackofaname
              Link Parent
              Oh, this is a really good perspective I hadnt thought of. I dont have much more to add, as I do agree with you. Just wanted to reply and say thanks!

              Making more 'fun' paths, in a US mindset, means that they should be for leisure not getting places. So cities design 'nature' trails instead of walk ways.

              Oh, this is a really good perspective I hadnt thought of. I dont have much more to add, as I do agree with you. Just wanted to reply and say thanks!

              3 votes
          2. [2]
            Akir
            Link Parent
            I live in a relatively warm climate, and in my experience, 2-4AM walks are magical. The sun is long gone so it's pleasantly cool, and everyone's asleep or working night shifts so there's no cars...

            I live in a relatively warm climate, and in my experience, 2-4AM walks are magical. The sun is long gone so it's pleasantly cool, and everyone's asleep or working night shifts so there's no cars or traffic. The sheer contrast between the city in the day and the city at night makes it seem almost ethereal. You can sing a song loudly to nobody in particular and unless you're right outside of someone's window, nobody be bothered. If all my walks were like 2AM walks I'd walk everywhere.

            1 vote
            1. lackofaname
              Link Parent
              That does sound magical :) It also strikes me as a good example of the importance of designing walkability for local climates (especiallyin denser areas where it's easier to justify the cost) to...

              That does sound magical :)

              It also strikes me as a good example of the importance of designing walkability for local climates (especiallyin denser areas where it's easier to justify the cost) to protect from sun, or rain, or temperature. Aside from the underground tunnels I mentioned, I visited Auckland a number of years ago, and was stuck by the large amount of covered walkway/sidewalk. It struck me as one of those ideas that seems so obvious in retrospect.

              2 votes
      3. updawg
        Link Parent
        Yeah, that's the point. We want to make walking not seem like it's embarrassing and only for the impoverished and the broken down.

        Dignity makes it seem like walking is embarrassing, but it’s really not

        Yeah, that's the point. We want to make walking not seem like it's embarrassing and only for the impoverished and the broken down.

        9 votes
      4. Macha
        Link Parent
        Fun is seen as superfluous and not worth spending money on, so I can see opting for other terms

        Fun is seen as superfluous and not worth spending money on, so I can see opting for other terms

        1 vote
      5. TreeFiddyFiddy
        Link Parent
        I think this would be a minority viewpoint in the US. While the article does do a terrible job at defining dignity, you're right that they were really talking about making walking enjoyable, the...

        Dignity makes it seem like walking is embarrassing, but it’s really not (at least IMO)

        I think this would be a minority viewpoint in the US. While the article does do a terrible job at defining dignity, you're right that they were really talking about making walking enjoyable, the test they describe to identify dignity does function very well. I remember living in the US and so rarely seeing people walking somewhere outside of neighborhoods. That sight is met with curiousity and often disdain from people, only people up to no good or too poor to drive would be walking. Try asking from friends to walk with you to a store, they'll balk at the idea. Outside of major cities or select college towns, walking is not something normal dignified people do. Walks being enjoyable, or at least bearable, is a big part of this because people with means will not want to walk if it's hot, ugly, and unsafe.

        The idea as well that pedestrians come second to autos is highly undignified. I live in Germany now where pedestrians are strictly put first, people here confidently stride out into traffic (only in zebra crossings!) knowing that the cars will stop for them. Dignity also means that other traffic will treat walkers with respect, in most areas in the US it's more common for pedestrians to dodge traffic just to cross a road. The last time I was in Seattle I remember the crosswalk light turning green and my immediate thought was to start walking but somehting told me to wait a beat, thank god because a car came to the intersection to turn right on red - took a very brief pause and then hit the gas, if I was in the intersection he'd probably smoke me.

        1 vote
    2. [22]
      MIGsalund
      Link Parent
      There's one simple reason why none of those things are a priority-- time. People do not have time to walk. Not in America, at least. There's a culture of overworking in the States, even so much as...

      There's one simple reason why none of those things are a priority-- time. People do not have time to walk. Not in America, at least. There's a culture of overworking in the States, even so much as a necessity for many, and that is not conducive to promoting a culture that has time to walk. Solve that before you hope to solve all of the above. It's the only chance for progress there.

      7 votes
      1. [18]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        New York City is famously a workaholic culture and they still walk everywhere. I don't see how this makes any sense at all. Sitting in traffic is what people don't have time to do.

        New York City is famously a workaholic culture and they still walk everywhere. I don't see how this makes any sense at all. Sitting in traffic is what people don't have time to do.

        28 votes
        1. [2]
          ackables
          Link Parent
          Yeah walking with the current average US city layout is slow, but it doesn't have to be. Creating walkable cities means easy access to fast public transit and mixed-use zones. Nobody is saying...

          Yeah walking with the current average US city layout is slow, but it doesn't have to be. Creating walkable cities means easy access to fast public transit and mixed-use zones. Nobody is saying that we want to add shade trees to the suburban arterial road so you can hike 15 miles to work in the morning.

          5 votes
          1. NaraVara
            Link Parent
            Hell no! That's where you put the bike-lanes. :-D (Also in Florida there's a few retirement communities like the Villages where they have designated golf-cart lanes. People have rally tricked out,...

            Nobody is saying that we want to add shade trees to the suburban arterial road so you can hike 15 miles to work in the morning.

            Hell no! That's where you put the bike-lanes. :-D

            (Also in Florida there's a few retirement communities like the Villages where they have designated golf-cart lanes. People have rally tricked out, luxury golf carts that they use because they're no longer fit enough to maintain a drivers' license (and also it's easier to park). It's not exactly a cool climate, but it's not really an issue if you can have a fan blowing on you the whole drive.)

            2 votes
        2. [9]
          Asinine
          Link Parent
          NYC is a much older city than the majority of America's Suburbia; I live near Boston and it's quite walkable -- if you live in the city and want to walk to another point in Boston. It works for...

          NYC is a much older city than the majority of America's Suburbia; I live near Boston and it's quite walkable -- if you live in the city and want to walk to another point in Boston. It works for close-knit, older cities. But I also commute (via car) quite a distance, because there is no way I can afford housing anywhere within walking distance of my work, let alone within a distance that wouldn't be a "commute" in a car.

          But this is generally not feasible outside of the older areas, where the cities were built about without having to walk in general (especially in cities where racism came into play to keep non-whites limited to certain areas). To have to walk through miles of suburbs to get to anything that isn't another housing development (aside from a gas station or corner market, or maybe even a now-run-down strip mall) is much more easily navigated with a vehicle.

          Looking at California, where I grew up, SF is much more walking friendly than LA, and I've had quite a few friends living in SF who never owned cars. If they needed to get further out, BART took care of most of it. My cousin (who actually now lives in NYC and still doesn't own a car) would rent a car if he needed to go further out. LA has no comparable option, and you will not find anyone walking there. One reason is weather, but also it's just how the city is. Additionally, most cities do not have the necessities within walking distance -- if you are able to move to a location near your work, often it will cost a whole lot more in a larger city.

          4 votes
          1. scroll_lock
            Link Parent
            Strong Towns have a number of useful articles about how towns and small cities (including those designed, unfortunately, for automobiles rather than people) can be redesigned to improve...

            Strong Towns have a number of useful articles about how towns and small cities (including those designed, unfortunately, for automobiles rather than people) can be redesigned to improve walkability and reduce car-dependency. This task, though not trivial, is neither impossible nor infeasible in any way. I encourage you to read through some more of their work!

            A lot of this comes down to eliminating useless zoning policies: most American cities require excessive parking lots on every property (increasing construction costs, creating impermeable surfaces, and encouraging sprawl), require significant frontage around residential property (encouraging sprawl), ban duplexes and quadplexes in favor of single-family homes (raising housing prices and encouraging sprawl), and ban mixed-use zoning (e.g. banning useful "corner stores"). Removing these policies would improve density and walkability, allowing you to access amenities. Not everywhere has to be like New York City or Boston, but it's actually not very difficult to infill a few businesses in our towns. The local government literally just has to permit it. (Talk to your mayor!)

            Of course, it's a best practice to pair this sort of thing with better public transportation, including more protected bus stations and more frequent service. However, improving pedestrian access by itself is still valuable. It's also important to create pedestrian paths (and shortcuts) in more places as well as provide signal priority to them when crossing streets. I'm reminded of the many paths in towns in England and Scotland, fully separated from roadways, which give you a nice opportunity to walk somewhere beautiful and quiet (but also useful). It doesn't have to be complicated or expensive: easements for pedestrians between cul-de-sac neighborhoods, for example, can reduce the walk time of a local trip from 10 minutes to 2.

            5 votes
          2. [7]
            NaraVara
            Link Parent
            The comment I was responding to was saying Americans went walk because they’re workaholics. I pointed out that NYC is the most workaholic city in America and most people get around almost...

            The comment I was responding to was saying Americans went walk because they’re workaholics. I pointed out that NYC is the most workaholic city in America and most people get around almost exclusively by walking or transit. I don’t see what your comment has to do with what I was saying in that context.

            It’s also just defeatist. LA used to be much more walkable than it is. Its present non-walkability is due to 3 or 4 decades of poorly considered policy changes. It can be reversed. You can build necessities near where people live. You can build buses and rail. These constraints aren’t immutable.

            4 votes
            1. [6]
              Asinine
              Link Parent
              Oh, I definitely agree, but what my point mostly was is that the setup for NYC was built decades/a century before most modern cities. It has that easy foundation for being rushed yet still relying...

              Oh, I definitely agree, but what my point mostly was is that the setup for NYC was built decades/a century before most modern cities. It has that easy foundation for being rushed yet still relying heavily on foot traffic. This is also how many European cities still are.

              And while most US cities could become more foot-traffic friendly, the problem is most people need to travel excessive distances that negate foot traffic, and even when they could, it would take a change of heart/mind to make it happen.

              1 vote
              1. [5]
                NaraVara
                Link Parent
                I think the fact that mixed use urban neighborhoods are almost universally stupid expensive suggests there is a great deal of pent up demand for these sorts of lifestyles that just isn’t being...

                I think the fact that mixed use urban neighborhoods are almost universally stupid expensive suggests there is a great deal of pent up demand for these sorts of lifestyles that just isn’t being met. We’re using that land and resources to build detached, car dependent sprawl instead and this strikes me as a lack of imagination more than a real, revealed preference. The supply/demand curve doesn’t lie.

                1 vote
                1. [4]
                  Asinine
                  Link Parent
                  I was living in Houston where zoning isn't a thing for almost a decade until 2 years ago. Kind of threw me for a loop, but it introduces a whole nuance of bullshit for this type of conversation....

                  I was living in Houston where zoning isn't a thing for almost a decade until 2 years ago. Kind of threw me for a loop, but it introduces a whole nuance of bullshit for this type of conversation.

                  Mixed use wasn't stupid expensive, as you could find a car inspection basically in someone's garage where they'd also set up a sort of restaurant... it didn't fix the problem we're discussing though. But I don't believe you're wrong or necessarily right. There is a lot more deeper issues involved.

                  1. [3]
                    NaraVara
                    Link Parent
                    Houston doesn’t have zoning codes, but they basically get zoning codes through other municipal ordinances. Specifically the mandatory parking minimums are a killer.

                    Houston doesn’t have zoning codes, but they basically get zoning codes through other municipal ordinances. Specifically the mandatory parking minimums are a killer.

                    1. [2]
                      Asinine
                      Link Parent
                      Sorry, to clarify: I was living there for a decade until two years ago. Zoning is still not a thing.

                      Sorry, to clarify: I was living there for a decade until two years ago. Zoning is still not a thing.

                      1. NaraVara
                        (edited )
                        Link Parent
                        Up until, like, a couple of years ago Houston required every housing unit to have a little under 1 parking space per bedroom. There are also municipal codes around types of signage and displays,...

                        Up until, like, a couple of years ago Houston required every housing unit to have a little under 1 parking space per bedroom. There are also municipal codes around types of signage and displays, and a whole BUNCH of ordinances pointed at restaurant/bar/nightlife type businesses as well as rules around having and transporting heavy equipment in and out of places. This all functionally restricts the sizes and types of businesses you can have outside of specific areas.

                        When it comes to walkability though, that parking minimum is gonna be the killer.

        3. [6]
          MIGsalund
          Link Parent
          New York City is pretty much the only city that does this. It is the exception to the rule. Every other major city requires a car to get around, and none of them have traffic like NYC.

          New York City is pretty much the only city that does this. It is the exception to the rule. Every other major city requires a car to get around, and none of them have traffic like NYC.

          1. [4]
            scroll_lock
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I find this assessment to be untrue. If you live within a major city in the United States, you definitely don't "require a car to get around." Philadelphia, for example, has a car ownership rate...
            • Exemplary

            I find this assessment to be untrue. If you live within a major city in the United States, you definitely don't "require a car to get around." Philadelphia, for example, has a car ownership rate of only 70% (NYC is about 45%). I can personally attest to the practicality of a car-free lifestyle here. The city's strong bus network, extensive (if unexceptional) regional rail, acceptable subway lines and trolley service, and extremely walkable downtown mean that unless you frequently travel 25+ miles outside the city to places that specifically don't have any transit, a car is a convenience rather than a necessity.

            I have found that this is the case in all American cities I've visited, including those outside the dense northeast, though there's a range of quality. CityNerd spent months living car-free in Las Vegas, a place I didn't think it was "possible" until seeing his video. It turns out you can get by fine without a car. (Millions of low-income, disabled, and elderly people in cities around the country already do!) Strictly speaking, you don't even require an automobile in most suburban areas within the vicinity of a major city. It is neither temporally nor physiologically impossible/unrealistic to get around and complete routine errands on foot or with an electric bicycle, taking transit where needed. It's just undignified. It's uncomfortable, it's not necessarily speedy, it's not normalized, and in many areas it's actively stigmatized. That's why people don't do it.

            When Americans say "you can't get around without a car," they are usually factually incorrect. Except in remote outposts, you can do it. However, it's not always pleasant and it's not typically dignified. It's also not necessarily safe due to excessive car-oriented infrastructure. This is the key idea: we've gotten so used to the idea of driving everywhere that, even in major cities, the concept of living car-free or even car-lite seems literally impossible. By extension, we conflate the purported impossibility of car-free lifestyles with undignified lifestyles: we implicitly assume that those without vehicles are relegating themselves to a sad, lesser existence. Often, in places without pedestrian infrastructure or public transportation, they are! (And in such wastelands, they'd probably wish they could avoid it.) In other words, we perpetuate the notion that "if you don't have a car, it's because you have no other choice." These places don't give you "dignity" if you're not in a car. But to say that this is universal in the US is false. More importantly, this kind of defeatist attitude deflects attention from simple, solvable problems in pedestrian infrastructure. Instead of evaluating the cause of a problem as a vague and qualitative cultural issue, it's more constructive to engage with the things we can do and that we already know will work, like improving the physical design of our towns, including roadways, sidewalks, intersections, crosswalks, transit and cycling lanes, and more. Indeed, travel time is a concern, but there are many policies we can enact to alleviate that too, mostly by loosening zoning restrictions, eliminating minimum parking requirements, and encouraging transit-oriented development.

            and none of them have traffic like NYC.

            Every major American city has significant automobile traffic because automobiles are an inefficient way of transporting people.

            New York isn't even the most congested city by many metrics. Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Miami, Washington, Houston, San Francisco, and others all rotate around the top 10 list. You'll notice that these cities happen to be the most populous in the country. That's because in cities of more than a few thousand people, it is physically impossible to accommodate personal vehicles on roadways at a rate that avoids congestion while also maintaining a level of density that constitutes an economically sustainable city. The issue magnifies at greater scales, hence the correlation. Even sprawling Houston with its enormous stroads and ridiculous interchanges has significant traffic. You can hardly find a place more interested in automobile throughput than Texas, and yet the "traffic problem" persists. Cities are natural congestion points due to their high density relative to surrounding areas. No matter how wide you make the streets, a car-centric transportation system can't move people fast enough in a city to avoid traffic: cars are traffic. The more car infrastructure you build at the expense of other infrastructure, the less incentive people have to take alternative forms of transport (like walking), and the more traffic increases. And the more car infrastructure you build, the less money your municipality has to begin with because the maintenance required for asphalt roadways is disproportionately expensive relative to the infrastructure required for other modes. Cars destroy their own infrastructure at a rate no other method of transportation does. Then the city claims there is "no room in the budget" for pedestrian infrastructure. We have to break out of the cycle.

            For this reason and others it is necessary and important to heavily shift our focus away from car-oriented development and toward people-oriented development. This ultimately starts with designing our cities, towns, and infrastructure for people first (including pedestrians and cyclists), not machines. The ideas laid out in the Strong Towns articles linked above are some simple ways that every single municipality in the country can get started. While the cultural issue you bring up is real, its existence doesn't inherently thwart or preclude the possibility of walkable towns and effective transportation systems.

            10 votes
            1. [3]
              MIGsalund
              Link Parent
              Perhaps this would work with a single adult in many places, but try doing this with children that need to get to school and extracurricular activities. It's just not feasible due to time constraints.

              Perhaps this would work with a single adult in many places, but try doing this with children that need to get to school and extracurricular activities. It's just not feasible due to time constraints.

              1 vote
              1. [2]
                scroll_lock
                Link Parent
                I have thought, but not written, extensively on the issue you describe: Parents feel the need to constantly ferry their children around to institutions and activities because they are not located...

                I have thought, but not written, extensively on the issue you describe:

                Children and teenagers do not have the freedom in our transportation network to make local trips without constant supervision by adults. This is due to a combination of low-density zoning, unsafe infrastructure, excessive automobile dominance, high roadway speeds, and cultural attitudes about childhood independence and sheltering.

                Parents feel the need to constantly ferry their children around to institutions and activities because they are not located places accessible by young people themselves. Specifically, parents choose to live in low-density residential neighborhoods full of dangerous stroads and with little pedestrian infrastructure. They also do not advocate for pedestrian/cycling infrastructure with their local governments, perhaps out of apathy or lack of knowledge. This obviously makes it unrealistic for young people to make local trips by themselves. By extension, parents must waste their own time (and money) driving their vehicles from Point A to Point B when, ideally, they could do fine walking. This also wastes the municipality's money, because more road use means more maintenance means more cost means higher local property taxes to pay for those roads.

                In other words, if you advocate for safe pedestrian and cycling infrastructure in your town/city, as well as expanded public transportation options (including on-demand micro-mobility services), your children will not need you to drive them everywhere. Other useful improvements include density infill (shrinking parking lots, etc.) to fundamentally reduce travel times. This saves you time and money and makes them more self-sufficient human beings.

                Not Just Bikes has an approachable video on the subject of children's independence which I encourage you to check out. He currently lives in the Netherlands, but grew up in Canada, hence the focus on North American design patterns.

                I grew up in a small, suburban town, but was fortunate enough to have parents interested in their children's self-actualization. From a fairly young age (~11), as soon as I had an understanding of geography and self-preservation, I was encouraged to walk to and from school every day. As I got older, I was encouraged to walk longer distances to friends' houses. In Japan, pedestrian infrastructure is intentionally designed for children, so you'll see kids as young as five or six walking to school by themselves in a variety of density contexts. Frankly, I don't know enough about Japanese pedestrian infrastructure to talk about it in depth, but they clearly have workable solutions.

                6 votes
                1. MIGsalund
                  Link Parent
                  I want you to know that I really appreciate your dedication to building out walking infrastructure. It's admirable, and you speak to a lot of variables on the issue. Keep at it. You may not have...

                  I want you to know that I really appreciate your dedication to building out walking infrastructure. It's admirable, and you speak to a lot of variables on the issue. Keep at it. You may not have convinced me fully that walking can be so fully integrated back into Americans' lives, but I do like the concept. There are just some really tall social hurdles (one being that American parents leaving their kids unattended usually leads to nosy people calling CPS on said parents) to overcome for it to attain mainstream acceptance. Your passion is contagious, though.

                  4 votes
          2. NaraVara
            Link Parent
            Chicago, Seattle, San Francisco, Boston, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia. . . And if you expand that to cities where you can get by day to day without a car but might need one for weekly...

            Chicago, Seattle, San Francisco, Boston, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia. . .

            And if you expand that to cities where you can get by day to day without a car but might need one for weekly errands or solely for getting to an office the list expands dramatically to include a ton of the post-WWII suburbs as well as parts of cities like LA and basically every beach/resort town.

            1 vote
      2. [2]
        merry-cherry
        Link Parent
        It's not time for me. I'd love to walk more often but everytime I do, I'm reminded why I don't. Walking next to cars is entirely unpleasant and unsafe. The pavement and exhaust are incredibly hot....

        It's not time for me. I'd love to walk more often but everytime I do, I'm reminded why I don't. Walking next to cars is entirely unpleasant and unsafe. The pavement and exhaust are incredibly hot. The noise makes conversation very difficult if you're lucky enough to even have a sidewalk wide enough for two people side by side. Intersections are a nightmare game of chicken and wondering if the driver of the metal death machine is texting or not.

        It's a terrible experience to not be a car in car infrastructure. And yes, sidewalks are car infrastructure.

        7 votes
        1. MIGsalund
          Link Parent
          Fair enough. I still think the majority of Americans don't have the free time to even consider walking, and if they did then dedicated walking spaces would be more common. Even still, in my city,...

          Fair enough. I still think the majority of Americans don't have the free time to even consider walking, and if they did then dedicated walking spaces would be more common.

          Even still, in my city, Detroit, we have many new options for this. Several streets and alleys have been converted into walking streets/alleys lined with businesses. There's also the Dequindre Cut, a walking/bike path that ends at Rivard Park which is situated just northeast of the Renaissance Center (Detroit's tallest building and GM's headquarters) on the Detroit River.

          There are certainly efforts like this being made in other cities as well. Denver has the 16th Street Mall. Boston, San Francisco, Miami, Chicago, DC, Seattle, Minneapolis, LA, Portland, Austin, and many more all have unique walkable paths like this as well. Is it perfect? No. It never will be. Not unless we complete redesign life around walking. That would require people have time to walk first, though.

          2 votes
      3. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. MIGsalund
          Link Parent
          Please make an actual argument. Casual insults are the toxicity.

          Please make an actual argument. Casual insults are the toxicity.

          4 votes
    3. [5]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Great, but i mean, converting every "should be walkable but is hellish" area in a country like the US is probably a trillion dollar project. And that's before you get into the very real space...

      Great, but i mean, converting every "should be walkable but is hellish" area in a country like the US is probably a trillion dollar project. And that's before you get into the very real space issues because it just wasn't built that way. Even if you narrow the roads, things like irrigation are probably going to have to be totally redone to support this shaded utopia, unless you go for a more brutalist approach (which i'd be fine with but i'm sure many wouldn't).

      2 votes
      1. [4]
        scroll_lock
        Link Parent
        The United States spends over $200 billion/yr on roadways... and that's just states and local governments (about $50 billion of that is aid from the federal government, but they have their own...

        The United States spends over $200 billion/yr on roadways... and that's just states and local governments (about $50 billion of that is aid from the federal government, but they have their own projects too). The interstate highway system, if constructed today, would cost nearly $600 billion. And that's merely the construction cost: the routine maintenance cost is immense, over $25 billion/yr. Over time, maintenance dramatically outpaces initial cost. The money is there, it just needs to be allocated more effectively.

        Many of the changes that need to be taken to redevelop infrastructure to be pedestrian-friendly are things that can be feasibly done. Because cars are heavy (and getting heavier), they immediately structurally weaken asphalt roadways, leading to defects that become potholes after only a few freeze/thaw cycles. This is why roads have to be resurfaced and repaired on a regular basis in all climates. The resurfacing process—which cities will never drop from their budgets—can absolutely include basic changes like planting trees along roadways to provide shade, transpiration, and to psychologically narrow roadways, which discourages speeding; actually narrowing roads where throughput would be minimally affected; installing curb bumpouts and bollards at intersections for safety reasons; raising crosswalks at busy intersections (i.e. turning them into speed humps while improving pedestrian accessibility and ADA compliance); painting dedicated transit lanes along major arterial roads (such as bus rapid transit lanes); and so on. The next time an intersection signal breaks down, a town can replace it with one that specifically prioritizes pedestrians. Again, they're replacing this stuff anyway, so they can choose to replace it well.

        For inspiration, we can look to countries like the Netherlands, who have spent the last 50 years incrementally redesigning roadways to be friendly to pedestrians and bicyclists rather than just... giving up and perpetuating a car-centric status quo like the US has. They've made an array of small, specific, and actionable infrastructure decisions that actually translate surprisingly well to the US, such as better differentiating high-speed and low-speed roads based on adjacent street access (this particular strategy can be implemented on literally every arterial in the US). Contrary to popular belief, there are plenty of quite rural places in such countries. In general, their small size is accompanied by a smaller population (and therefore a smaller tax base), so they don't really have an advantage when it comes to municipal infrastructure. Proportionally speaking, the US is more than capable of evaluating the success metrics of these places and translating that into infrastructure projects in populated areas back home.

        I encourage you to read some of Strong Towns' blogs on this subject. They've done an impressive amount of work with towns and cities across the US to improve pedestrian access already. There's more work to do, but it can all be realistically accomplished as long as we make it a priority.

        9 votes
        1. [3]
          Eji1700
          Link Parent
          I'm well aware that we already spend billions on roads, but that spend doesn't just vanish because you've changed your goals. At best, maybe, 10-20 years down the road as projects finish up you...

          I'm well aware that we already spend billions on roads, but that spend doesn't just vanish because you've changed your goals. At best, maybe, 10-20 years down the road as projects finish up you might start seeing reductions in the "road" part of the cost, but your total spend will be up for decades.

          The resurfacing process—which cities will never drop from their budgets—can absolutely include basic changes like planting trees along roadways to provide shade, transpiration, and to psychologically narrow roadways, which discourages speeding; actually narrowing roads where throughput would be minimally affected; installing curb bumpouts and bollards at intersections for safety reasons; raising crosswalks at busy intersections (i.e. turning them into speed humps while improving pedestrian accessibility and ADA compliance); painting dedicated transit lanes along major arterial roads (such as bus rapid transit lanes); and so on.

          I think you're seriously underestimating how easy/effective some of these things are, but the major one that jumps out at me is trees. It's not trivial to plant trees along a roadway. You need to get them, at the bare minimum, water, which can mean serious infrastructure changes. And since you're mentioning shade, that doesn't always leave you with a lot of biome appropriate options. You'll also want something that isn't a major pain in the ass to keep alive, can put up with the damage, and isn't going to have it's root system rip apart your brand new road and sidewalk.

          All of this is before the biggest issue that always screws up US vs country X comparisons, and that's bureaucracy. The legal tapestry of 50 states with 3000 counties is consistently a major problem. As you point out these things are mostly state budgets, and as more and more people are finding out, there's lots of really good ideas we'd like to adopt, that we can't because some other good idea (or at least hopefully good) in another avenue is preventing us.

          Should we do it where it is easy? Oh absolutely no question. Is it easy everywhere, or even in a majority of spots? Not even close.

          You mention the Netherlands, and one of the best things they did was stop with all the "bikes should be on the road" nonsense and instead give bikes/pedestrians totally different paths (thus separating traffic, making things safer, and making walking/biking more attractive because it can be a physically shorter route). It's a brilliant idea, and pretty core to their success. It's also a major problem in the US because they've already built stuff there. Who's home/business are you going to tear down so you can run a bike path? How are you going to pay for it, especially in places like LA that need it the most?

          Again, to be clear, I think all of this needs to be pursued. I just don't think it's easy. Things like "well make sure there's shade everywhere" are, to me, bonus goals that I hope we'll eventually get to, but not even close to being realistic for a majority of the country.

          2 votes
          1. tibpoe
            Link Parent
            Big difference between pedestrians & cars is that pedestrians don't need much space. We won't be repeating the mistakes of the past, where we bulldozed black neighborhoods and used highways to...

            Who's home/business are you going to tear down so you can run a bike path?

            Big difference between pedestrians & cars is that pedestrians don't need much space. We won't be repeating the mistakes of the past, where we bulldozed black neighborhoods and used highways to enforce segregation.

            I've picked an entirely random intersection in Los Angeles, and drawn some lines on it in green where cycling & pedestrian infrastructure could be built. The travel lanes get a little narrower, which is good because it keeps speeds lower & the kids in this residential neighborhood safe! But it really does not negatively impact anything. Same amount of parking, still plenty of road for the traffic this place gets.

            6 votes
          2. scroll_lock
            Link Parent
            A significant amount of roadway funding is related to expansion. This is generally antithetical to walkability and public transportation. Departments of Transportation can choose to allocate less...

            A significant amount of roadway funding is related to expansion. This is generally antithetical to walkability and public transportation. Departments of Transportation can choose to allocate less funding toward roadway expansion and more funding toward a multi-modal network. Recent legislation (the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law) has also made available tens of billions of dollars in federal grants for infrastructure, which states and municipalities can apply for. They are capable of choosing how to spend this money.

            Additionally, a multi-modal network requires fundamentally less maintenance (and is therefore much cheaper) because fewer personal automobile vehicle-miles traveled (VMT) per capita reduces road wear. Walkability and public transit are cost-savers in the medium and long term.

            Who's home/business are you going to tear down so you can run a bike path?

            Literally no home or business will ever be demolished to create a bicycle path. I doubt that is even remotely common in the Netherlands (which, by the way, had "already built stuff there" too!).

            It's feasible, practical, and realistic to conduct traffic studies on arterial and other roadways to determine average throughput relative to road width. A surprising number of roadways, especially four-lane+ arterial roads, are overbuilt for their throughput and would benefit from a "road diet" in which one or more lanes of traffic are reassigned to bus rapid transit and/or bicycles (or both). Thoughtful redesign in a road diet can actually improve automobile throughput, despite having fewer lanes for cars. This may result from modal shifts to public transportation (which is enormously efficient and has a dramatic effect on reducing traffic) or cycling (which also takes cars off the road). Obviously, I am painting in broad strokes: you would have to speak to your local planners about implementing road diets according to your community's needs.

            I think you're seriously underestimating how easy/effective some of these things are, but the major one that jumps out at me is trees.

            Fortunately, cities employ civil servants called urban planners to analyze the feasibility of specific infrastructure projects and architect workable solutions to them. This includes canopy work. Major cities often have standing teams of grounds workers (like NYC Parks), often consulting with credentialed arborists and/or foresters for complex tree-related projects. It is realistic for a smaller city or town to contract an expert on an as-needed basis. The logistics of maintaining a street tree are not trivial but they are also not infeasible in any way. Local (biome-specific), deep-taprooted (to maintain ADA compliance), shade-bearing trees are already known to arborists, as are low-water trees for drier climates. Growth strategies are also well-understood. These people have advanced degrees in flora and they plant street trees for a living! Many cities also have programs where residents can "adopt" a newly planted tree or set of trees near their home, checking up on it regularly. Once a tree gets big enough, it generally doesn't need to be watered. It goes without saying that you can't use the exact same solution on every street in the country, but it is important and necessary for us to increase canopy cover for a variety of health, irrigatory, and ecological reasons.

            None of these projects are impossible, infeasible, impractical, unrealistic, too expensive, too difficult, or too unpopular to implement. The public have to know that the solution even exists, a budget has to be allocated, and a plan has to be documented, but all of that is doable. The engineering challenges associated with infrastructure changes like this are well-understood and it is often appropriate to reuse structures from elsewhere in the country/world, saving money on design costs. While detailed traffic studies in major cities can take a few years, the planning process for a bike lane along an arterial or a curb bumpout at an intersection is not particularly extensive. This is why many cities have already been able to implement some such infrastructure!

            In general, holding a defeatist or pessimistic attitude toward infrastructure is the reason much of it in the US is not good. It is unconstructive to bemoan the difficulties of implementing solutions to our problems without actively helping with those solutions. Even if you think implementation of certain things is unrealistic in the short term, it is critical for citizens to advocate for pedestrian infrastructure in their towns and cities. To determine what would work best in your municipality, I encourage you to reach out to your local city council and/or planners. More than enough tax and grant money exists from local, state, and federal sources to begin making small, impactful changes to make our communities thrive.

            All of this is before the biggest issue that always screws up US vs country X comparisons, and that's bureaucracy.

            Yes, the arcane system of project analysis and review we've created in the United States (nominally to protect the environment) and generally inefficient decision-making process has led to ridiculous construction costs for even basic infrastructure. In most cases, it is possible and realistic for states to remove some of the "red tape," conducting all appropriate reviews on infrastructure without beleaguering the process. The Transit Costs Project has some good content about how we can solve this problem. It's difficult but extremely possible as long as we actively advocate for it.

            4 votes
  2. [4]
    patience_limited
    (edited )
    Link
    I feel this acutely - last night, I found myself getting angry and about to downgrade an Uber driver's rating because he let us out on the "wrong" side of the street from our destination. Two...

    I feel this acutely - last night, I found myself getting angry and about to downgrade an Uber driver's rating because he let us out on the "wrong" side of the street from our destination.

    Two crosswalks and a dash across four lanes of 45 m.p.h. traffic, at dusk, in a rainstorm. The only way we could get across was thanks to a few courteous and conscientious drivers who actually stopped for the pedestrians at the crosswalk.

    But there was literally nowhere our driver could have turned around without going an additional mile, no curb cut or driveway he could have pulled into at the destination, either. [This was Boston area, in an older borough with barely enough room for sidewalks, let alone parking or facilities for pickup/drop off, and a horrifyingly dangerous-looking bike lane added recently.]

    The U.S. has too much infrastructure that's a bad amalgam of antiquated pedestrian use overlaid with mid-century wide roads, and ill-considered recent cycling additions that aren't safe. There's no money for wholesale redesign with traffic calming/mandatory stops for pedestrians, lighted pedestrian crossings with ADA-compliant curbs, ride shares, separated non-motorized vehicle lanes, etc.

    The current situation isn't fair to people who have to drive (no mass transit service, excessive rents or no housing near work/shopping), to people who have to walk, or to people who want to/have to bicycle.

    12 votes
    1. [3]
      scroll_lock
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      The money is there, it's just not allocated or spent effectively. Even disregarding the possibility of adding more marginal tax brackets for ultra-high income earners, American city planners are...

      There's no money for wholesale redesign with traffic calming/mandatory stops for pedestrians, lighted pedestrian crossings with ADA-compliant curbs, ride shares, separated non-motorized vehicle lanes, etc.

      The money is there, it's just not allocated or spent effectively. Even disregarding the possibility of adding more marginal tax brackets for ultra-high income earners, American city planners are notoriously bad at cost-benefit analyses of infrastructure projects. Car-centric infrastructure is inherently expensive, and prioritizing it over public transportation and pedestrian projects is not good for budgets, but even those "good" projects that get funded can often be 2–3 times as expensive as they would be in comparable European cities. Sometimes the difference is an order of magnitude, as with high-speed rail.

      Alon Levy has quite a bit of interesting commentary about high construction costs on their blog "Pedestrian Observations." The article "Assume Normal Costs: An Update" is a good example of incompetence in New York City, which of all places ought to have figured this out by now. There are a lot of reasons US construction costs are high, and it's not unions. For the most part, it's a combination of Byzantine regulatory restrictions, an obsession with hiring waves upon waves of private consultants for every single project, and technical decisions made by planners which are simply not rigorous.

      4 votes
      1. meff
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I'm afraid this is a bit overly simplistic. It's not about cost, local governments don't really scale their projects based on costs. They do ballpark around costs but generally speaking, local...

        American city planners are notoriously bad at cost-benefit analyses of infrastructure projects. Car-centric infrastructure is inherently expensive, and prioritizing it over public transportation and pedestrian projects is not good for budgets, but even those "good" projects that get funded can often be 2–3 times as expensive as they would be in comparable European cities. Sometimes the difference is an order of magnitude, as with high-speed rail.

        I'm afraid this is a bit overly simplistic. It's not about cost, local governments don't really scale their projects based on costs. They do ballpark around costs but generally speaking, local governments pencil out plans and then request funding for their plans rather than designing their plans around a budget. Most folks also intuitively understand that mass transit and micromobility is cheaper than car-oriented development (which is where a lot of the stigma of transit comes from.)

        The reason why American city planners implement car-centric infrastructure is because elected officials want car-centric infrastructure. Why do electeds want car-centric infrastructure? A variety of reasons. Electeds themselves usually live in wealthier neighborhoods where parking is abundant, safe, and plentiful. Electeds tend to be older and from a generation that strongly associated driving with freedom. Many progressive electeds often think of cars as a form of social progress. A lot of electeds also generally think that free parking is very important.

        The key to planning dense, car-light areas is to push electeds to make these changes.

        EDIT: A good example of this is Emeryville, CA where the mayor and city council are all pro-bike lanes and traffic calming. The city is full of great walkable urban design because electeds are fully onboard walkable infrastructure.

        3 votes
      2. patience_limited
        Link Parent
        I appreciate the link to "Assume Normal Costs", thank you!

        I appreciate the link to "Assume Normal Costs", thank you!

        1 vote
  3. EsteeBestee
    Link
    Thanks for the link, OP! It led me to streets.mn and, living in the Minneapolis area, I now have a site with a bunch of relevant articles regarding walking, biking, and getting rid of our car...

    Thanks for the link, OP! It led me to streets.mn and, living in the Minneapolis area, I now have a site with a bunch of relevant articles regarding walking, biking, and getting rid of our car first culture where I live!

    I definitely agree with a number of points in this article. I recently moved (from one part of MPLS to another) and I was actually very excited to now be within a 10 minute walk of a shopping area and some food options, so that I'm not as dependent on my car (I had a couple places within walking distance before, but nothing very good), but after having walked it a few times now, it's a pretty horrible walk. I either have to take a long detour to be on the sidewalk for the "main" road that goes to the shopping area (the road kind of meanders and the sidewalk is on the wrong side of it) or I can walk through a residential neighborhood that has no sidewalks and use an existing desire path to reconnect to the main road just next to the shopping center. So I either get a sidewalk and have to walk a few blocks more or I get no sidewalk. This definitely ties into the "dignity" aspect the author was talking about.

    It's possible for me to walk for groceries now, but it has annoyances. I also found that the fast food options near me have no sidewalks leading to them at all, meaning I have to walk through their parking lots and lawns instead, despite these restaurants serving an area that is mostly residential. It's just disappointing to be so close to a lot of options, but have basically no walking infrastructure and I just have to deal with it (though there is some construction in the area and the plans claim they'll increase walkability).

    4 votes
  4. [2]
    jordanlund
    Link
    I'm torn... On the one hand, my wife and I just got back from a mini-vacation where we walked all over Hollywood Blvd. and had a bunch of fun! OTOH, I say "walked" but I used a mobility scooter...

    I'm torn... On the one hand, my wife and I just got back from a mini-vacation where we walked all over Hollywood Blvd. and had a bunch of fun!

    OTOH, I say "walked" but I used a mobility scooter since it's just not possible for me to do any sort of distances at all anymore. :(

    My wife had a super hard time one day because it was really, really hot and didn't hydrate properly. The next day was cooler and we loaded the scooter with drinks, so lesson learned.

    On the other, other hand, what we did wouldn't really have worked with a car, either. The walk of fame is MEANT to be walked.

    1. scroll_lock
      Link Parent
      Mobility scooters exist for a reason! Our infrastructure should support that use-case because not everyone can walk long or even short distances. I'd put them in the same category as wheelchairs...

      Mobility scooters exist for a reason! Our infrastructure should support that use-case because not everyone can walk long or even short distances. I'd put them in the same category as wheelchairs in terms of accessibility: they're a necessity (and also a completely different mode than automobiles). I think it's great that you were able to experience the Walk of Fame from a pedestrian perspective. Seeing the sights without a car is one of my favorite ways to explore a new city. :)

      3 votes
  5. boxer_dogs_dance
    Link
    Thank you for this article. : )

    Thank you for this article. : )

    2 votes
  6. [14]
    Comment removed by site admin
    Link
    1. [8]
      Akir
      Link Parent
      I hear what you're saying, but as you mentioned before, people are selfish. Pushing for bikes has the side effect of making things safer for people who need walking aids, generally.

      And the only thing I ever hear activists talk about is bikes, Bike's aren't really a thing to physically disabled people but I have had a few interactions with their riders who seem to get angry at me for having the audacity to try to walk on our "shared" path while they're riding.

      I hear what you're saying, but as you mentioned before, people are selfish. Pushing for bikes has the side effect of making things safer for people who need walking aids, generally.

      10 votes
      1. [7]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        Also bike-lanes are also, functionally, micro-mobility lanes. People with mobility issues may not be able to cycle but they can certainly use motorized scooters specially designed for them.

        Also bike-lanes are also, functionally, micro-mobility lanes. People with mobility issues may not be able to cycle but they can certainly use motorized scooters specially designed for them.

        7 votes
        1. [6]
          Sodliddesu
          Link Parent
          Oh man, the uproar that you'd hear from most bike people if a mobility scooter was in the bike lane. I mean, thinking about it annoys me right now. That's like doing 20 on the highway level of...

          Oh man, the uproar that you'd hear from most bike people if a mobility scooter was in the bike lane.

          I mean, thinking about it annoys me right now. That's like doing 20 on the highway level of annoying.

          6 votes
          1. [4]
            NaraVara
            Link Parent
            It’s the cyclist version of a bike in the car lane. Share the road!

            It’s the cyclist version of a bike in the car lane. Share the road!

            4 votes
            1. [3]
              Sodliddesu
              Link Parent
              You're not wrong but it's one of those things. If people can just 'use the bike lane' then we don't need to worry about the sidewalks being accessible. Then the bike lane turns into a four way...

              You're not wrong but it's one of those things. If people can just 'use the bike lane' then we don't need to worry about the sidewalks being accessible. Then the bike lane turns into a four way intersection and you're stuck unable to get to the pedestrian crosswalk.

              It's like those shots of Denmark with all the people cycling. Just imagine three people on mobility scooters weaving through that.

              1. [2]
                NaraVara
                Link Parent
                Those aren’t the scooters I was talking about. I was referring to the Lime bike style ones. If you need a cane it wouldn’t be too much to design a hoverboard or scooter that can work for you. If...

                Those aren’t the scooters I was talking about. I was referring to the Lime bike style ones. If you need a cane it wouldn’t be too much to design a hoverboard or scooter that can work for you. If anything they’re normally faster than an unassisted bike, they just suck at handling or braking.

                1 vote
                1. Sodliddesu
                  Link Parent
                  I mean, there's a huge difference between a mobility scooter and a motorized scooter... Which is probably why you said 'Motorized' in the first place! Yeah, I'm perfectly fine with other single...

                  I mean, there's a huge difference between a mobility scooter and a motorized scooter...

                  Which is probably why you said 'Motorized' in the first place! Yeah, I'm perfectly fine with other single occupancy vehicles. It'd basically be the same as an e-bike.

                  2 votes
          2. scroll_lock
            Link Parent
            You might hear uproar from people whose identity is equivalent to cycling, but I've rarely found daily or casual bike commuters to be particularly bothered by mobility scooters in bike lanes. I...

            You might hear uproar from people whose identity is equivalent to cycling, but I've rarely found daily or casual bike commuters to be particularly bothered by mobility scooters in bike lanes. I see them relatively frequently. Honestly I don't find it any different than a slow pedestrian. It's not actually a safety hazard.

            There are plenty of slow cyclists already, like children, and the solution is just to pass them. Mildly annoying? Maybe if you're in a rush, but I hardly consider it an issue. I fully welcome mobility devices in our bike lanes.

            4 votes
    2. [4]
      JuDGe3690
      Link Parent
      Even worse, most cities put responsibility for sidewalks on the adjacent property owner, whereas streets are owned and maintained by the city (or a highway district in some cases). This offloading...

      City's refuse to keep sidewalks in good condition so they buckle and crack

      Even worse, most cities put responsibility for sidewalks on the adjacent property owner, whereas streets are owned and maintained by the city (or a highway district in some cases). This offloading of responsibility—and with it, the capability for quick addressing of problems, as this privatization typically results in code violations being levied, but rarely actual improvements—structurally puts pedestrians at a disadvantage.

      7 votes
      1. Parliament
        Link Parent
        They may not be able to afford to. The result of sprawling, car-dependent infrastructure is insane maintenance costs, and there's just too many miles of roads, sidewalks, and underground sewer...

        City's refuse to keep sidewalks in good condition so they buckle and crack

        They may not be able to afford to. The result of sprawling, car-dependent infrastructure is insane maintenance costs, and there's just too many miles of roads, sidewalks, and underground sewer systems for any local government to adequately manage. This is before you even factor in the greater tax revenue from denser zoning.

        5 votes
      2. [2]
        lackofaname
        Link Parent
        I've experienced having the responsibility of sidewalk snow removal, but when you say that property owners are responsible for sidewalks, do you mean all upkeep? Including, repairs and whatnot?...

        I've experienced having the responsibility of sidewalk snow removal, but when you say that property owners are responsible for sidewalks, do you mean all upkeep? Including, repairs and whatnot? I'm not in the US, so I'm just trying to understand the scope of what you're describing :)

        4 votes
        1. NaraVara
          Link Parent
          No mostly just snow removal/deicing and making sure it's clear of obstructions from your house. Like if you plant a tree that starts to root out the sidewalk that's on you. Or if your house has...

          No mostly just snow removal/deicing and making sure it's clear of obstructions from your house. Like if you plant a tree that starts to root out the sidewalk that's on you. Or if your house has junk spilling out.

          4 votes
    3. Eji1700
      Link Parent
      Was surprised to see this as I live there, but it makes sense thinking about it more. I walked 2-3 miles to and from highschool for a few years, and it sucked, but mostly because of the weather...

      Las Vegas

      Was surprised to see this as I live there, but it makes sense thinking about it more. I walked 2-3 miles to and from highschool for a few years, and it sucked, but mostly because of the weather (something that really is a major problem for any sort of walking/biking in a large portion of the US).

      Still i'm wondering if you were in the more touristy areas or actually in the suburbs. I found that for a long time, the crosswalk timings on major intersections were short for me (a kid in highschool). This was to the point that I actually mentioned it to a teacher who pushed it to a local official to get them raised, because I couldn't imagine what it was like trying to get across some of those streets with any sort of mobility issues.

      4 votes