This is kind of crazy to hear about for someone who lives in Florida. Virtually every building has central air conditioning here, so ventilation isn't a problem, and if someone tried to open all...
This is kind of crazy to hear about for someone who lives in Florida. Virtually every building has central air conditioning here, so ventilation isn't a problem, and if someone tried to open all of my windows in the middle of summertime after my poor heat pump chugged away fighting the good fight against the swampy hot fog we call air here because of some German tradition/social media trend, I think I would actually physically restrain them.
It seems a little bit counterintuitive to spend a bunch of money on high efficiency, insulated windows, and then regularly throw them open a few times a day so you can dump all of that energy outside. Surely a ventilation system is a better solution there?
I agree, this is not as advisable to do in humid places. Much of northern Europe doesn't have that problem and don't use air conditioning at all. I think some of these habits/customs came out as a...
I agree, this is not as advisable to do in humid places. Much of northern Europe doesn't have that problem and don't use air conditioning at all. I think some of these habits/customs came out as a result of keeping windows and doors open in the summer to cool the home.
In the cold, the air doesn't carry all that much of the heat. The mass of stuff in the home and the home itself are the thermal mass. Thus, changing the air for fresh cold air isn't all that costly in terms of heat loss.
If you do Stoßlüften, it has almost no effect. But some Germans are absolutely crazy when it comes to fresh air. They claim they can't breathe or it stinks as soon as all windows are closed. So...
changing the air for fresh cold air isn't all that costly in terms of heat loss.
If you do Stoßlüften, it has almost no effect. But some Germans are absolutely crazy when it comes to fresh air. They claim they can't breathe or it stinks as soon as all windows are closed. So they have a window cracked 24/7. Even in winter! It's infuriating!
Yeah, having a window cracked 24/7 is not the proper way to do lüften. You're supposed to open the window all the way for a short period of time, something like 5-15 minutes. I would chastise a...
Yeah, having a window cracked 24/7 is not the proper way to do lüften. You're supposed to open the window all the way for a short period of time, something like 5-15 minutes. I would chastise a German roommate who insisted on keeping windows open for longer in winter, since that's weird as fuck -- but of course maybe the fact that I would scold someone over lüften is a sign that I've integrated a little too well.
In the summer we'd leave the windows open all night and then close everything (including the curtains) during the day to try and keep the apartment as cool as possible given the lack of AC. But while Berlin is humid, it's not Florida humid, so.
Ugh, that reminds me of some dorms I lived in for a while. They had a radon problem, so we were required to keep the windows cracked at least an inch 24/7. The area didn't freeze, but it was foggy...
Ugh, that reminds me of some dorms I lived in for a while. They had a radon problem, so we were required to keep the windows cracked at least an inch 24/7. The area didn't freeze, but it was foggy most of the time. With the window open, that meant everything was slightly damp.
In my college dorm we kept the window cracked all winter because we had zero control over the heat (it was centralized for the whole building at least, if not several buildings at once) and it was...
In my college dorm we kept the window cracked all winter because we had zero control over the heat (it was centralized for the whole building at least, if not several buildings at once) and it was on absurdly high as soon as they turned the heating on for winter. And that was in Ohio, so our winter temps were nothing to sneeze at!
I live in DC, which is very humid, and do this regularly in summer and winter. Even though I have an HVAC forced air system things like dust and mildew and pollen still linger. You gotta air the...
I live in DC, which is very humid, and do this regularly in summer and winter. Even though I have an HVAC forced air system things like dust and mildew and pollen still linger. You gotta air the place out and then vacuum to keep it smelling fresh.
Also my dog sheds a lot, so the airflow from the housewide breeze ends up collecting all the fur into specific corners of the house. It’s a good way to determine where in the house you don’t get good air circulation!
This depends a lot on the house. I have definitely stayed in houses that were absolutely miserable in the summer, even worse than the outside, due to how much they trapped heat (this was...
This depends a lot on the house. I have definitely stayed in houses that were absolutely miserable in the summer, even worse than the outside, due to how much they trapped heat (this was particularly bad when I stayed in the UK). Open windows absolutely were an improvement there.
In Germany, it's usually not hot enough in the summer that keeping everything open isn't pleasant. At lower summer temperatures, the outdoor temperature is nice, so there's little downside to leaving the windows open; we'd do this during the day in Ohio at similar temperatures, when it wasn't hot enough to merit turning the AC on yet. Here in Berlin, each summer there will be a few weeks of really bad heat, though, and under those circumstances, the best thing to do is to open the windows at night when it's colder and close everything up when it's warm during the day. But keeping the sunlight from shining into the house is actually a much bigger factor than you'd expect too -- I can feel the difference between my bedroom, which has blackout curtains, and my living room, which has more translucent curtains, during the summer. Many buildings in Germany have reflective shutters on the outside of their windows to accomplish this more effectively, but my apartments haven't had those.
Of course when you have air-conditioning on, obviously keeping the windows closed makes sense, but most of Europe still doesn't have AC even in fancy buildings.
Hmm fair enough. I guess we have to distinguish between regular summer and heat waves. During the heat wave, when temperatures go above 30 degrees, the windows need to stay closed during the day,...
Hmm fair enough. I guess we have to distinguish between regular summer and heat waves. During the heat wave, when temperatures go above 30 degrees, the windows need to stay closed during the day, and the approach described by you (venting during the night) is much more rational. Otherwise, whatever feels comfortable. It's just that people have trouble switching between the approaches (as I've also demonstrated), so we tend to behave irrationally at least half of the time ;)
Disclaimer: I don't live in Berlin or even Germany, but our city falls very close climate-wise - for example average temperatures are within 1 degree difference.
I learned to keep windows and curtains closed during the day during heat waves the hard way, by suffering until I begrudgingly followed my German friends' advice, since it very much was not what I...
I learned to keep windows and curtains closed during the day during heat waves the hard way, by suffering until I begrudgingly followed my German friends' advice, since it very much was not what I was used to growing up in Ohio... but I also never lived without air conditioning growing up. It's probably the thing I've complained about most since moving here and it's definitely something I look forward to about moving back.
Sometimes even because they're fancy buildings. Try changing anything to a house over a century old and you need municipal approval. Sometimes something as mundane as the way the house looks can...
, but most of Europe still doesn't have AC even in fancy buildings.
Sometimes even because they're fancy buildings. Try changing anything to a house over a century old and you need municipal approval. Sometimes something as mundane as the way the house looks can prevent you from adding an ugly AC unit.
Oh see when I said "fancy building" I was thinking of new construction lol, but I live in Berlin so there aren't as many buildings old enough to need special approval here. I used to live in an...
Oh see when I said "fancy building" I was thinking of new construction lol, but I live in Berlin so there aren't as many buildings old enough to need special approval here. I used to live in an apartment in Potsdam's city center where the landlord kept running into problems for that reason tho
Sorry, but may I ask if your buildings combine their fresh air systems with their centralized cooling? I'm more used to seeing that done with a dedicated ERV/HRV, as that allows for continuous...
Virtually every building has central air conditioning here, so ventilation isn't a problem [...]
Sorry, but may I ask if your buildings combine their fresh air systems with their centralized cooling? I'm more used to seeing that done with a dedicated ERV/HRV, as that allows for continuous ventilation independent of cold air delivery. I'm always interested in hearing how different places control their built environments!
I don't have numbers to back me up but I imagine that ERV/HRV is not that common. I think it's more that people assume the air from the central air unit is fresh air when in reality its all...
so ventilation isn't a problem
I don't have numbers to back me up but I imagine that ERV/HRV is not that common. I think it's more that people assume the air from the central air unit is fresh air when in reality its all recycled. A good dehumidifier and ERV unit can easily double the cost of a central air unit.
I'm also in the US south and every single day that the humidity is low I open up the whole house, it only happens like once a year in the fall. The rest of the year we just hope that the HVAC...
I'm also in the US south and every single day that the humidity is low I open up the whole house, it only happens like once a year in the fall.
The rest of the year we just hope that the HVAC circulates the air well enough to not affect our cognition (it probably doesn't in the bedroom, but what can ya do)
...i do likewise; if the weather's agreeable i won't hesitate to throw every window in the house wide open, and if the weather's even marginally tolerable i'll at least crack open as many as i can...
...i do likewise; if the weather's agreeable i won't hesitate to throw every window in the house wide open, and if the weather's even marginally tolerable i'll at least crack open as many as i can get away with...
I'm not sure why, but my brains first solution to this was the wonderful image of a guest yeeting themselves through a narrowly open window as someone slams it shut after the feet pass through....
I'm not sure why, but my brains first solution to this was the wonderful image of a guest yeeting themselves through a narrowly open window as someone slams it shut after the feet pass through. Minimal air exchange while still allowing ingress/egress!
I often joked that we needed some sort of space station like airlock. It was really frustrating on days when we'd have guests though. Our oversized (for the square footage) would be going full...
I often joked that we needed some sort of space station like airlock. It was really frustrating on days when we'd have guests though. Our oversized (for the square footage) would be going full blast struggling to keep it under 83F no matter what temp it was set to. We ended up moving to MN a couple of years, despite me having never seen snow in person :)
I've researched this a bit, stale air in the home can actually be quite unhealthy. There's a solution that I think should become a standard in new buildings called HRV/ERV (Energy/Heat recovery...
I can't read past the first paragraph, so apologies if this is covered or unrelated.
I've researched this a bit, stale air in the home can actually be quite unhealthy. There's a solution that I think should become a standard in new buildings called HRV/ERV (Energy/Heat recovery ventilation).
Basically, it's a heat (+ humidity for ERVs) exchanger that constantly pulls in outside air and exhausts inside air while trying to preserve the temperature and humidity of the inside air.
They aren't super cheap yet (can be a few thousand $) because they're relatively niche for consumer markets, but I imagine they'll come down as they become more popular.
It's definitely something worth looking into if you're interested in fresher air at home.
Also important to keep in mind CO2 levels. If you spend too long in a room, especially if sleeping, with all windows/doors closed it can get quite high which will noticeably affect your cognition.
Also important to keep in mind CO2 levels. If you spend too long in a room, especially if sleeping, with all windows/doors closed it can get quite high which will noticeably affect your cognition.
Yup, this is exactly why I researched ventilation and ended up installing my own ERV :) Highly insulated homes have many advantages, but high co2 concentrations are a very distinct disadvantage...
Yup, this is exactly why I researched ventilation and ended up installing my own ERV :)
Highly insulated homes have many advantages, but high co2 concentrations are a very distinct disadvantage that many people aren't fully aware of yet.
Someone has shared an archive link. I was surprised to see that ERVs or equivakent aren't mentioned and instead a blanket statement is made that implies most people with forced air ventilation...
Someone has shared an archive link. I was surprised to see that ERVs or equivakent aren't mentioned and instead a blanket statement is made that implies most people with forced air ventilation have a means of bringing fresh air into the home. I don't think that's actually the case.
Totally agree. From my conversations with a friend who's worked in HVAC his whole life, almost nobody has ventilation (outside of bathroom/stove hood exhausts) in the US.
Totally agree. From my conversations with a friend who's worked in HVAC his whole life, almost nobody has ventilation (outside of bathroom/stove hood exhausts) in the US.
And those vents won't move any air if you are properly air sealed. You're supposed to open a window when you run the kitchen vent. Basically the US system for air exchange relies on leaky, draft...
And those vents won't move any air if you are properly air sealed. You're supposed to open a window when you run the kitchen vent. Basically the US system for air exchange relies on leaky, draft houses.
In my German Neubau we have a passive ventilation system in the walls of each room with an outdoor-wall. I don't know precisely how it works but it's apparently required in new builds. I probably...
In my German Neubau we have a passive ventilation system in the walls of each room with an outdoor-wall. I don't know precisely how it works but it's apparently required in new builds. I probably have some sort of documentation on it that I could dig up from when we first moved in. It doesn't completely remove the need to lüften, but it does improve the situation dramatically, especially when it comes to humidity. Our bathroom has something that I think connects to this as well, but I'm not 100% how it works either.
The vent in our stove hood is fake tho. It's just a fan 😞
I don't think it's super technical, but you might be able to glean some of the technical info from the sheet we got about it when we moved in (in German). We have... not necessarily been following...
I don't think it's super technical, but you might be able to glean some of the technical info from the sheet we got about it when we moved in (in German). We have... not necessarily been following all the rules here but tbf we also couldn't read German that well back when I moved in 😅 Two pages long, so theres two links:
I looked the brand name up. It appears to basically be a permanent removal of the window seal with the installation of a device that either passively allows continuous air flow or gets more and...
I looked the brand name up. It appears to basically be a permanent removal of the window seal with the installation of a device that either passively allows continuous air flow or gets more and more sophisticated in how to control the air flow without having to open windows directly. Thanks for sharing
The ones I've worked on were just 8 or 10 inch flexible ducts run into the return side; combustion air was a separate duct. Here we don't have the same humidity concerns as the Southeastern US, so...
The ones I've worked on were just 8 or 10 inch flexible ducts run into the return side; combustion air was a separate duct.
Here we don't have the same humidity concerns as the Southeastern US, so cooling isn't impacted as much as it would be there, and the duct work and AC size account for the extra load anyways.
It's covered here, I believe! And yeah, agreed that ERVs should be everywhere. Typically you can calculate a payback interval for them (similar to e.g. a heat pump) since they reduce your house's...
It's covered here, I believe!
But this applies only if a home doesn’t have a built-in ventilation mechanism. New multiunit buildings in Denmark are required to have ventilation systems that use fans to exchange air, Gunnarsen said. In the United States, many homes with forced-air heat and central air conditioning have built-in ventilation systems.
And yeah, agreed that ERVs should be everywhere. Typically you can calculate a payback interval for them (similar to e.g. a heat pump) since they reduce your house's demand for heating/cooling, and they can also replace bath fans, in order to help reduce the cost a little further.
They're functionally mini package units and made cheap as fuck. They have a life expectancy of only around ten years, and most people can't justify the price of having them installed in the first...
They're functionally mini package units and made cheap as fuck. They have a life expectancy of only around ten years, and most people can't justify the price of having them installed in the first place, let alone replacing them when they break.
Because similar to whole house dehumidifiers, they're not built to be repaired. HVAC manufacturers are only maintaining the bare minimum stock necessary on common components, and most other things are backordered with no ETA.
I actually have an HRV solely for my basement to bring in fresh air because of a low amount of radon. It wasn't necessary to do a full system, so HRV system it is.
I actually have an HRV solely for my basement to bring in fresh air because of a low amount of radon. It wasn't necessary to do a full system, so HRV system it is.
God I think "house burping" is the least attractive way I've ever heard Stoßlüften described. I'm not a huge fan of it in the winter because of the cold, and luckily my current Neubau has special...
God I think "house burping" is the least attractive way I've ever heard Stoßlüften described.
I'm not a huge fan of it in the winter because of the cold, and luckily my current Neubau has special ventilation built into the place that makes it much less necessary than in most German flats. I think the fresh air is probably good for keeping CO2 down tbf, but I'm definitely not sold on it the way Germans are. It would also be much less convenient to do with US-style windows compared to German ones.
/offtopic I made a bookmark "script" that will attempt to find the archive link for any website you're currently on. Save this as a bookmark: javascript:(location.href ="https://archive.is/" +...
/offtopic
I made a bookmark "script" that will attempt to find the archive link for any website you're currently on.
Save this as a bookmark: javascript:(location.href ="https://archive.is/" + location.href);
(I'm on firefox, so I cannot vouch that this works on other browsers)
I misread the title as "Horse burping" and was still a bit confused by the time I got to the bottom of the article--although horses burping through open windows at ground level certainly still...
I misread the title as "Horse burping" and was still a bit confused by the time I got to the bottom of the article--although horses burping through open windows at ground level certainly still remains a possibility!
A fun and a little silly article about cultural differences. The lease on my apartment in Germany, during a short term abroad assignment, also required Stoßlüften.
A fun and a little silly article about cultural differences. The lease on my apartment in Germany, during a short term abroad assignment, also required Stoßlüften.
Sounds like a similar sort of vibe as fan death! It's a bit unfortunate to see people adopting arduous, optional habits which drive wedges into relationships, but I suppose it's all part of the...
Sounds like a similar sort of vibe as fan death! It's a bit unfortunate to see people adopting arduous, optional habits which drive wedges into relationships, but I suppose it's all part of the human condition in the end.
I think comparing it to fan death is a little much, since lüften does have a purpose that is objectively beneficial to human health if you're in a well-insulated but poorly-ventilated dwelling....
I think comparing it to fan death is a little much, since lüften does have a purpose that is objectively beneficial to human health if you're in a well-insulated but poorly-ventilated dwelling. The effect on CO2 can be very palpable. Some people take it too far or develop it into a habit that they keep even when no longer in an environment where it makes sense, but in most German apartments, it is generally beneficial for your health and that of the building to do regular Stoßlüften. And I say this as an immigrant from the US who really hates doing it. I have had problems due to not doing it enough in previous flats here.
Okeydoke! I realize that, in hindsight, I didn't specifically note that I was comparing its use in scenarios where it's unnecessary (which seemed like the point of the article). I don't have the...
Okeydoke! I realize that, in hindsight, I didn't specifically note that I was comparing its use in scenarios where it's unnecessary (which seemed like the point of the article). I don't have the lived experiences you do, and I apologize for any harm I did by overgeneralizing.
For context: growing up, I often had to open windows in the middle of winter for ventilation purposes, due to the quality of the structures I lived in at the time (poor insulation, poor ventilation). As soon as I stopped living in such places, I stopped doing that, since freezing my butt off was unnecessary.
From my perspective, devoid of the cultural pressures that German expats must feel, I was drawing a line between "opening windows in the dead of winter to solve a problem that does not exist when houses are ventilated" and "not using fans in hot, humid climates where doing so would improve comfort". Again, apologies if that comparison is insulting: I truly did not intend for it to be, and was simply attempting to share a bit of interesting cultural info from the other side of the pond, so to speak.
This is kind of crazy to hear about for someone who lives in Florida. Virtually every building has central air conditioning here, so ventilation isn't a problem, and if someone tried to open all of my windows in the middle of summertime after my poor heat pump chugged away fighting the good fight against the swampy hot fog we call air here because of some German tradition/social media trend, I think I would actually physically restrain them.
It seems a little bit counterintuitive to spend a bunch of money on high efficiency, insulated windows, and then regularly throw them open a few times a day so you can dump all of that energy outside. Surely a ventilation system is a better solution there?
I agree, this is not as advisable to do in humid places. Much of northern Europe doesn't have that problem and don't use air conditioning at all. I think some of these habits/customs came out as a result of keeping windows and doors open in the summer to cool the home.
In the cold, the air doesn't carry all that much of the heat. The mass of stuff in the home and the home itself are the thermal mass. Thus, changing the air for fresh cold air isn't all that costly in terms of heat loss.
If you do Stoßlüften, it has almost no effect. But some Germans are absolutely crazy when it comes to fresh air. They claim they can't breathe or it stinks as soon as all windows are closed. So they have a window cracked 24/7. Even in winter! It's infuriating!
Yeah, having a window cracked 24/7 is not the proper way to do lüften. You're supposed to open the window all the way for a short period of time, something like 5-15 minutes. I would chastise a German roommate who insisted on keeping windows open for longer in winter, since that's weird as fuck -- but of course maybe the fact that I would scold someone over lüften is a sign that I've integrated a little too well.
In the summer we'd leave the windows open all night and then close everything (including the curtains) during the day to try and keep the apartment as cool as possible given the lack of AC. But while Berlin is humid, it's not Florida humid, so.
Ugh, that reminds me of some dorms I lived in for a while. They had a radon problem, so we were required to keep the windows cracked at least an inch 24/7. The area didn't freeze, but it was foggy most of the time. With the window open, that meant everything was slightly damp.
In my college dorm we kept the window cracked all winter because we had zero control over the heat (it was centralized for the whole building at least, if not several buildings at once) and it was on absurdly high as soon as they turned the heating on for winter. And that was in Ohio, so our winter temps were nothing to sneeze at!
I live in DC, which is very humid, and do this regularly in summer and winter. Even though I have an HVAC forced air system things like dust and mildew and pollen still linger. You gotta air the place out and then vacuum to keep it smelling fresh.
Also my dog sheds a lot, so the airflow from the housewide breeze ends up collecting all the fur into specific corners of the house. It’s a good way to determine where in the house you don’t get good air circulation!
Was this ever a good idea?
I mean, outside is usually much hotter in the summer.
This depends a lot on the house. I have definitely stayed in houses that were absolutely miserable in the summer, even worse than the outside, due to how much they trapped heat (this was particularly bad when I stayed in the UK). Open windows absolutely were an improvement there.
In Germany, it's usually not hot enough in the summer that keeping everything open isn't pleasant. At lower summer temperatures, the outdoor temperature is nice, so there's little downside to leaving the windows open; we'd do this during the day in Ohio at similar temperatures, when it wasn't hot enough to merit turning the AC on yet. Here in Berlin, each summer there will be a few weeks of really bad heat, though, and under those circumstances, the best thing to do is to open the windows at night when it's colder and close everything up when it's warm during the day. But keeping the sunlight from shining into the house is actually a much bigger factor than you'd expect too -- I can feel the difference between my bedroom, which has blackout curtains, and my living room, which has more translucent curtains, during the summer. Many buildings in Germany have reflective shutters on the outside of their windows to accomplish this more effectively, but my apartments haven't had those.
Of course when you have air-conditioning on, obviously keeping the windows closed makes sense, but most of Europe still doesn't have AC even in fancy buildings.
Hmm fair enough. I guess we have to distinguish between regular summer and heat waves. During the heat wave, when temperatures go above 30 degrees, the windows need to stay closed during the day, and the approach described by you (venting during the night) is much more rational. Otherwise, whatever feels comfortable. It's just that people have trouble switching between the approaches (as I've also demonstrated), so we tend to behave irrationally at least half of the time ;)
Disclaimer: I don't live in Berlin or even Germany, but our city falls very close climate-wise - for example average temperatures are within 1 degree difference.
I learned to keep windows and curtains closed during the day during heat waves the hard way, by suffering until I begrudgingly followed my German friends' advice, since it very much was not what I was used to growing up in Ohio... but I also never lived without air conditioning growing up. It's probably the thing I've complained about most since moving here and it's definitely something I look forward to about moving back.
Sometimes even because they're fancy buildings. Try changing anything to a house over a century old and you need municipal approval. Sometimes something as mundane as the way the house looks can prevent you from adding an ugly AC unit.
Oh see when I said "fancy building" I was thinking of new construction lol, but I live in Berlin so there aren't as many buildings old enough to need special approval here. I used to live in an apartment in Potsdam's city center where the landlord kept running into problems for that reason tho
Sorry, but may I ask if your buildings combine their fresh air systems with their centralized cooling? I'm more used to seeing that done with a dedicated ERV/HRV, as that allows for continuous ventilation independent of cold air delivery. I'm always interested in hearing how different places control their built environments!
I don't have numbers to back me up but I imagine that ERV/HRV is not that common. I think it's more that people assume the air from the central air unit is fresh air when in reality its all recycled. A good dehumidifier and ERV unit can easily double the cost of a central air unit.
A central air unit is a dehumidifier.
I'm also in the US south and every single day that the humidity is low I open up the whole house, it only happens like once a year in the fall.
The rest of the year we just hope that the HVAC circulates the air well enough to not affect our cognition (it probably doesn't in the bedroom, but what can ya do)
...i do likewise; if the weather's agreeable i won't hesitate to throw every window in the house wide open, and if the weather's even marginally tolerable i'll at least crack open as many as i can get away with...
Yeah, we used to try to limit even using the front door in FL.
I'm not sure why, but my brains first solution to this was the wonderful image of a guest yeeting themselves through a narrowly open window as someone slams it shut after the feet pass through. Minimal air exchange while still allowing ingress/egress!
I often joked that we needed some sort of space station like airlock. It was really frustrating on days when we'd have guests though. Our oversized (for the square footage) would be going full blast struggling to keep it under 83F no matter what temp it was set to. We ended up moving to MN a couple of years, despite me having never seen snow in person :)
I can't read past the first paragraph, so apologies if this is covered or unrelated.I've researched this a bit, stale air in the home can actually be quite unhealthy. There's a solution that I think should become a standard in new buildings called HRV/ERV (Energy/Heat recovery ventilation).
Basically, it's a heat (+ humidity for ERVs) exchanger that constantly pulls in outside air and exhausts inside air while trying to preserve the temperature and humidity of the inside air.
They aren't super cheap yet (can be a few thousand $) because they're relatively niche for consumer markets, but I imagine they'll come down as they become more popular.
It's definitely something worth looking into if you're interested in fresher air at home.
Also important to keep in mind CO2 levels. If you spend too long in a room, especially if sleeping, with all windows/doors closed it can get quite high which will noticeably affect your cognition.
Yup, this is exactly why I researched ventilation and ended up installing my own ERV :)
Highly insulated homes have many advantages, but high co2 concentrations are a very distinct disadvantage that many people aren't fully aware of yet.
Someone has shared an archive link. I was surprised to see that ERVs or equivakent aren't mentioned and instead a blanket statement is made that implies most people with forced air ventilation have a means of bringing fresh air into the home. I don't think that's actually the case.
Totally agree. From my conversations with a friend who's worked in HVAC his whole life, almost nobody has ventilation (outside of bathroom/stove hood exhausts) in the US.
And those vents won't move any air if you are properly air sealed. You're supposed to open a window when you run the kitchen vent. Basically the US system for air exchange relies on leaky, draft houses.
In my German Neubau we have a passive ventilation system in the walls of each room with an outdoor-wall. I don't know precisely how it works but it's apparently required in new builds. I probably have some sort of documentation on it that I could dig up from when we first moved in. It doesn't completely remove the need to lüften, but it does improve the situation dramatically, especially when it comes to humidity. Our bathroom has something that I think connects to this as well, but I'm not 100% how it works either.
The vent in our stove hood is fake tho. It's just a fan 😞
Cool! I'd love to see something on it if you can find it. German language is fine if that makes it easier.
Those fake vents are the worst!
I don't think it's super technical, but you might be able to glean some of the technical info from the sheet we got about it when we moved in (in German). We have... not necessarily been following all the rules here but tbf we also couldn't read German that well back when I moved in 😅 Two pages long, so theres two links:
https://ibb.co/21FFYgd1
https://ibb.co/NgBSvKfP
I looked the brand name up. It appears to basically be a permanent removal of the window seal with the installation of a device that either passively allows continuous air flow or gets more and more sophisticated in how to control the air flow without having to open windows directly. Thanks for sharing
Most new construction homes have fresh air intake dampers on the returns nowadays, but they're not run through HRVs.
Thanks for sharing! How does this work? They pull off the fresh air intake for combustion (assuming gas furnace here)? What about when running AC?
The ones I've worked on were just 8 or 10 inch flexible ducts run into the return side; combustion air was a separate duct.
Here we don't have the same humidity concerns as the Southeastern US, so cooling isn't impacted as much as it would be there, and the duct work and AC size account for the extra load anyways.
It's covered here, I believe!
And yeah, agreed that ERVs should be everywhere. Typically you can calculate a payback interval for them (similar to e.g. a heat pump) since they reduce your house's demand for heating/cooling, and they can also replace bath fans, in order to help reduce the cost a little further.
They're functionally mini package units and made cheap as fuck. They have a life expectancy of only around ten years, and most people can't justify the price of having them installed in the first place, let alone replacing them when they break.
Because similar to whole house dehumidifiers, they're not built to be repaired. HVAC manufacturers are only maintaining the bare minimum stock necessary on common components, and most other things are backordered with no ETA.
I actually have an HRV solely for my basement to bring in fresh air because of a low amount of radon. It wasn't necessary to do a full system, so HRV system it is.
God I think "house burping" is the least attractive way I've ever heard Stoßlüften described.
I'm not a huge fan of it in the winter because of the cold, and luckily my current Neubau has special ventilation built into the place that makes it much less necessary than in most German flats. I think the fresh air is probably good for keeping CO2 down tbf, but I'm definitely not sold on it the way Germans are. It would also be much less convenient to do with US-style windows compared to German ones.
Anyone got an archive link? I stopped paying the post
Here you go, one link.
Much appreciated!
/offtopic
I made a bookmark "script" that will attempt to find the archive link for any website you're currently on.
Save this as a bookmark:
javascript:(location.href ="https://archive.is/" + location.href);(I'm on firefox, so I cannot vouch that this works on other browsers)
Thanks I'll try it out. I'm on mobile so it's less convenient there but I tossed it in my toolbar for the desktop later
I misread the title as "Horse burping" and was still a bit confused by the time I got to the bottom of the article--although horses burping through open windows at ground level certainly still remains a possibility!
My cat's vet is an actual horse doctor - I'll be sure to ask her about horse burping as a means of recycling household air for you :)
/noise
A fun and a little silly article about cultural differences. The lease on my apartment in Germany, during a short term abroad assignment, also required Stoßlüften.
Sounds like a similar sort of vibe as fan death! It's a bit unfortunate to see people adopting arduous, optional habits which drive wedges into relationships, but I suppose it's all part of the human condition in the end.
I think comparing it to fan death is a little much, since lüften does have a purpose that is objectively beneficial to human health if you're in a well-insulated but poorly-ventilated dwelling. The effect on CO2 can be very palpable. Some people take it too far or develop it into a habit that they keep even when no longer in an environment where it makes sense, but in most German apartments, it is generally beneficial for your health and that of the building to do regular Stoßlüften. And I say this as an immigrant from the US who really hates doing it. I have had problems due to not doing it enough in previous flats here.
Okeydoke! I realize that, in hindsight, I didn't specifically note that I was comparing its use in scenarios where it's unnecessary (which seemed like the point of the article). I don't have the lived experiences you do, and I apologize for any harm I did by overgeneralizing.
For context: growing up, I often had to open windows in the middle of winter for ventilation purposes, due to the quality of the structures I lived in at the time (poor insulation, poor ventilation). As soon as I stopped living in such places, I stopped doing that, since freezing my butt off was unnecessary.
From my perspective, devoid of the cultural pressures that German expats must feel, I was drawing a line between "opening windows in the dead of winter to solve a problem that does not exist when houses are ventilated" and "not using fans in hot, humid climates where doing so would improve comfort". Again, apologies if that comparison is insulting: I truly did not intend for it to be, and was simply attempting to share a bit of interesting cultural info from the other side of the pond, so to speak.