This is not an area of expertise of mine, so I absolutely welcome critiques of the article as appropriate. But I find any discrimination - particularly couched in religious purity and piety,...
This is not an area of expertise of mine, so I absolutely welcome critiques of the article as appropriate. But I find any discrimination - particularly couched in religious purity and piety, distasteful. And it feels like there's a mix of ghettoization and outright exclusion here. We only see hints of caste discrimination in the US unless you're in the communities themselves and it truly feels unfathomable from the outside. And yet very familiar as a pattern in humanity's behaviors.
I just discovered my town is a pretty nasty WASP hive. A lot of the social structures, like say the swim club, have multi-year waiting lists that for some reason, only other WASPs get admitted to.
I just discovered my town is a pretty nasty WASP hive. A lot of the social structures, like say the swim club, have multi-year waiting lists that for some reason, only other WASPs get admitted to.
These are not traditional Landlords but families lending their spare rooms for some side income. If they don't like you they will not lend the house. You'll face more rejection being a single male...
These are not traditional Landlords but families lending their spare rooms for some side income. If they don't like you they will not lend the house. You'll face more rejection being a single male then being non vegetarian here. Some only rent to traditional married couples.
Even if they are okay with non vegetarians, Hindus will be object with beef eaters and Muslims will object with pork eaters. Some are fine if you bring non veg from outside and don't cook in the house itself. Everyone will put ban on alcohol and smoking.
It seemed like some of the examples in the article were more traditional apartment roommates situations vs individuals renting a spare space. But I do acknowledge that even in the US, renting your...
It seemed like some of the examples in the article were more traditional apartment roommates situations vs individuals renting a spare space. But I do acknowledge that even in the US, renting your spare room is a different regulatory situation. However, it's still a systemic issue if overwhelmingly Muslims are unable to rent a space, or only be allowed to live in certain neighborhoods especially being relegated to those without sufficient water/sewer/plumbing.
It also seems like it's varying based on the state too? But this does seem actively supported by the national government.
I went into this article with a bit of an open mind: if I were renting out my home, is it okay for me to want to exclude certain smells? For example, I would probably exclude smokers and vapers....
I went into this article with a bit of an open mind: if I were renting out my home, is it okay for me to want to exclude certain smells? For example, I would probably exclude smokers and vapers. There are also work place policies that say no fish or curries to be heated in the microwave during lunches, afterall.
But it's pretty clear this is about Modi sanctioned discrimination against outsider groups in order to consolidate power, using religious pretexts:
In these circumstances, ‘punishments’ for meat-eating often include the bulldozing of entire homes in neighbourhoods. On 15 June 2024, for example, eleven Muslim-owned homes in the tribal-majority Mandla district of Madhya Pradesh were razed, allegedly as a part of a crackdown on illegal beef trading.
Reminds me of American history where people where murdered and the town of Rosewood was destroyed due to racism.
The article also mentioned adequate drainage being an issue.....there's many many ways to force groups of people to live in effective ghettos, which becomes a self reinforcing excuse to exclude and discriminate.
This reminds me of burakumin who were butchers and leather workers in Japan when Buddhism shunned eating and handling non fish meat/animals. Their descendants still face some amount of...
This reminds me of burakumin who were butchers and leather workers in Japan when Buddhism shunned eating and handling non fish meat/animals. Their descendants still face some amount of discrimination today.
I'm really not familiar with the details of India religions and cultures, but was surprised by the article because it seemed to imply a vegetarian majority. I went and found a PEW study that put...
I'm really not familiar with the details of India religions and cultures, but was surprised by the article because it seemed to imply a vegetarian majority. I went and found a PEW study that put the number of vegetarians at around 39%.
So is this an intersectional issue, where the Jain adherents tend to be of a higher caste, and are freezing out non adherents? Since only 44% of Hindus reported being vegetarian, it can't be as simple as majority and minority by gross population.
Thank you for the link (and using old reddit)! Your link included a link to a source article for that post. One thing I found confusing from the source article are these two statements: and I'm...
One thing I found confusing from the source article are these two statements:
Indian vegetarianism is not veganism (vegans, in addition to being vegetarians, also abstain from animal products)
and
While most Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and Other Backward Classes are non-vegetarians, state governments find it difficult to even provide eggs for the school mid-day meal scheme for deprived children.
I'm trying to understand if dairy or other animal products are excluded on religious grounds by the more puritan caste. Do you know?
Eggs are considered meat in Indian vegetarianism. So while an Indian vegetarian will drink milk or eat honey, they won't eat eggs or use eggs in cooking or baking. Foods that use eggs will get...
Eggs are considered meat in Indian vegetarianism. So while an Indian vegetarian will drink milk or eat honey, they won't eat eggs or use eggs in cooking or baking. Foods that use eggs will get marked as containing meat in menus in restaurants.
So in the second quote, you should read that as the government wanting to optionally provide meat in schools.
That's crazy, no onions or garlic? I've been a vegetarian for decades, so giving up meat obviously isn't an issue. But garlic? Call me an unrepentant sinner.
That's crazy, no onions or garlic? I've been a vegetarian for decades, so giving up meat obviously isn't an issue. But garlic? Call me an unrepentant sinner.
This is specific to very strict Jains, and is not true of most vegetarians in India. When most Indians talk about "veg" (as opposed to "non veg"), they're just referring to not using meat (or...
This is specific to very strict Jains, and is not true of most vegetarians in India. When most Indians talk about "veg" (as opposed to "non veg"), they're just referring to not using meat (or eggs, as discussed in another comment).
This has been a fun exploration; I've been a vegetarian for a long time and I'm always curious about the different practices and reasons other cultures have. I find this except from another...
This has been a fun exploration; I've been a vegetarian for a long time and I'm always curious about the different practices and reasons other cultures have. I find this except from another article:
Milk products, however, are sometimes permitted. Jains are predominantly lacto-vegetarian, which means they include milk and milk products that are free from animal rennet (curdled milk from the stomach of a calf) because cows are treated more humanely on farms in India.
As someone who first switched to only eating meat that I hunted or fished myself due to ethics and sustainability, and then as I moved more into the city and didn't have time I realized I just didn't miss it anymore.
So it's interesting to read about another cultures ethical views on decisions I've also taken over the years.
For some Chinese / Taiwanese Buddhists, it's a diet which excludes meat plus "five spices" Chinese language wiki on pañca parivyaya , they list four allium species including garlic onions chives,...
For some Chinese / Taiwanese Buddhists, it's a diet which excludes meat plus "five spices"
Years ago I was on a climbing expedition with a marine sergeant from New York, and his breath was so bad it could wake me up in the tent at night so that on the third day we had to have a talk...
Years ago I was on a climbing expedition with a marine sergeant from New York, and his breath was so bad it could wake me up in the tent at night so that on the third day we had to have a talk about brushing teeth. I can definitely see shared sleeping quarters giving rise to some interesting rules about garlic, lol.
Well, he was a sergeant in the Marines so of course I broached it delicately. Brochacho was the nickname I gave him for the trip, lol. When you have to poop into a bag while roped up to people...
Well, he was a sergeant in the Marines so of course I broached it delicately.
Brochacho, your breath is waking me up at night. I'm going to start pouring tooth powder in your mouth while you sleep if you don't brush better.
Brochacho was the nickname I gave him for the trip, lol. When you have to poop into a bag while roped up to people while crossing glaciers or mixed rock/ice pitches, a lot of the usual social decorum goes out the window!
Can you explain this a bit more ?? You guys were crossing dangerous terrain so everybody is roped to other people....and then when someone has to poop (what about pee?) they get a bit more rope to...
When you have to poop into a bag while roped up to people while crossing glaciers or mixed rock/ice pitches
Can you explain this a bit more ?? You guys were crossing dangerous terrain so everybody is roped to other people....and then when someone has to poop (what about pee?) they get a bit more rope to find a bush or go behind a big rock? And what is a pitch? Quick google
Pitch—The length of a climb that can be protected by 1 rope length.
That doesn't tell me anything. Like, a small ice Cliff? Was this a recreational trip or for research or something else?
The details vary by terrain, but a typical climbing rope is about 60 meters. On glaciers you space out butterfly knots in the ropes so that of someone falls through a snow bridge, there is enough...
The details vary by terrain, but a typical climbing rope is about 60 meters. On glaciers you space out butterfly knots in the ropes so that of someone falls through a snow bridge, there is enough rope to the person in front of them and/or behind them that they self arrest and raise the person out.
Likewise for climbing up icy terrain, you space out and minimize slack between climbers so if one person slips, the test can self arrest using ice axes and stop the fall.
For vertical accents, you all anchor in, and then have a lead climber and belayer. You then ascend, but that is a bit more complicated a process.
When you are out on a mountain, there isn't much privacy. On top of that, you are eating a lot and burning 4-5k calories or more. So on long multi day climbs, you need to poop. Alpine environments are fragile ecosystems, so you pack out what you pack in.
You carry what are often called wag bags; resealable bags with TP and kitty litter basically. So you poop, get the air out, reseal, pack away. If someone needs to poop mid-day, or even pee, you gotta go. If your are on a glacier, you can't go off rope without a whole process to probe for hidden crevasses and rope out a safe area, which is time consuming and only done when seeing camp.
So you do your best to wiggle your butt out of your layers of pants and hardshells, and do your best to poop or pee while still roped in.
More modest teams will look the other way. More comfortable teams will call out Olympic judge scoring banter.
On that trip we had some exciting bathroom sagas, including when a mountain goat ran intercept!
That's hilarious!! I'm definitely a home body, so I'll take my lack of Olympic judge scoring banter and lack of mountain goats thanks! Maybe if someone is having a hard time the goat could be a...
That's hilarious!!
I'm definitely a home body, so I'll take my lack of Olympic judge scoring banter and lack of mountain goats thanks! Maybe if someone is having a hard time the goat could be a good motivator hahahaha
Human beings are so weird! That any member of our species will run 22km a day or willingly put themselves in such precarious positions that we'd need to poop in bags with folks cheering is also why some of us made it to the moon, I guess. :D
My understanding is that the Brahmin caste is (Traditionally) vegetarian and that is the priestly/highest caste. Jains seem to be supported as upholding the same purity but most are in the higher...
My understanding is that the Brahmin caste is (Traditionally) vegetarian and that is the priestly/highest caste. Jains seem to be supported as upholding the same purity but most are in the higher end of the General castes. (I'm very very much not an expert, but this is the gist). This seems to be supported by the ruling party nationally and/or in some of the specific states. It also seems to be very much a law that is targeted at Muslims (and lower castes?) so it may be enforced differently against them than against other castes of Hindus.
While it's never as easy as separating exclusionary actions on the grounds of cultural incompatibility or religious piety from bigotry and racism, I do think that as a wider society, the west is...
While it's never as easy as separating exclusionary actions on the grounds of cultural incompatibility or religious piety from bigotry and racism, I do think that as a wider society, the west is at odds for how to have this conversation.
France and Quebec have a no religious symbols in public buildings and roles initiative that despite impacting different groups disproportionately, are the will of the culture in those places. I've only heard the argument that the goals of each initiative are bigoted and exclusionary, but what about the discussion about each french society's desire to self actualize without religion?
While it's far more of a situation than no vegetarians allowed, why can't these people create a society based around a common diet?
At least learning how to have these conversations is, I think, would deflate so much of what the reactionary right uses as fuel for their intolerance, but (to me) lefty is far too hung up on details to see the forest behind the trees.
I think that the exclusion of religious symbols is also problematic. Because those are not the opinions of all of their society, just the majority one. In both cases, the majority government (or...
I think that the exclusion of religious symbols is also problematic. Because those are not the opinions of all of their society, just the majority one. In both cases, the majority government (or at least the government in power) is restricting primarily the behavior of the minority (whether in power or numbers) and particularly in both cases they're often deliberately targeting Muslims. Limiting where one can wear "modest attire" that potentially distinguishes one as Muslim ignores that their cultural "modest attire" is just as inextricably tied to their cultural Christianity. It's deliberate when the things targeted just happen to be things that the majority faith (cultural or practicing) is rarely if ever religiously obligated to do or aren't visible.
"Why can't they create a society around a common diet" is sort of obvious when there are millions of people who don't eat that diet who also need a place to live. It's the sort of dog whistle of "values" that small towns or neighborhoods use to exclude racial minorities. And then making a big to-do about how "they" live in squalor.
Because "common diet" is actually religious and caste restriction. And then it's "why can't they exclude low castes and other religions?" Which feels much more obviously wrong. (And if it doesn't, that's a separate problem.) It's their country and they have to figure it out but colonialism really is at the heart of everything in my post and I got no solution to unwind the harm done there.
I don't know if I think cultural incompatibility is a thing that exists at an individual people level. Most of the time I think people can get along. I think government or leadership causes the problem, which means it's not a cultural incompatibility at all. (That also feels dogwhistle-y but that could just be my back being up on discrimination. )
This is not an area of expertise of mine, so I absolutely welcome critiques of the article as appropriate. But I find any discrimination - particularly couched in religious purity and piety, distasteful. And it feels like there's a mix of ghettoization and outright exclusion here. We only see hints of caste discrimination in the US unless you're in the communities themselves and it truly feels unfathomable from the outside. And yet very familiar as a pattern in humanity's behaviors.
I just discovered my town is a pretty nasty WASP hive. A lot of the social structures, like say the swim club, have multi-year waiting lists that for some reason, only other WASPs get admitted to.
WASP?
White
Anglo-
Saxon
Protestant
These are not traditional Landlords but families lending their spare rooms for some side income. If they don't like you they will not lend the house. You'll face more rejection being a single male then being non vegetarian here. Some only rent to traditional married couples.
Even if they are okay with non vegetarians, Hindus will be object with beef eaters and Muslims will object with pork eaters. Some are fine if you bring non veg from outside and don't cook in the house itself. Everyone will put ban on alcohol and smoking.
It seemed like some of the examples in the article were more traditional apartment roommates situations vs individuals renting a spare space. But I do acknowledge that even in the US, renting your spare room is a different regulatory situation. However, it's still a systemic issue if overwhelmingly Muslims are unable to rent a space, or only be allowed to live in certain neighborhoods especially being relegated to those without sufficient water/sewer/plumbing.
It also seems like it's varying based on the state too? But this does seem actively supported by the national government.
I went into this article with a bit of an open mind: if I were renting out my home, is it okay for me to want to exclude certain smells? For example, I would probably exclude smokers and vapers. There are also work place policies that say no fish or curries to be heated in the microwave during lunches, afterall.
But it's pretty clear this is about Modi sanctioned discrimination against outsider groups in order to consolidate power, using religious pretexts:
Reminds me of American history where people where murdered and the town of Rosewood was destroyed due to racism.
The article also mentioned adequate drainage being an issue.....there's many many ways to force groups of people to live in effective ghettos, which becomes a self reinforcing excuse to exclude and discriminate.
This reminds me of burakumin who were butchers and leather workers in Japan when Buddhism shunned eating and handling non fish meat/animals. Their descendants still face some amount of discrimination today.
If I recall, Abe's predecessor made fun of the idea of a burakumin PM. That discrimination is still very much alive.
I'm really not familiar with the details of India religions and cultures, but was surprised by the article because it seemed to imply a vegetarian majority. I went and found a PEW study that put the number of vegetarians at around 39%.
So is this an intersectional issue, where the Jain adherents tend to be of a higher caste, and are freezing out non adherents? Since only 44% of Hindus reported being vegetarian, it can't be as simple as majority and minority by gross population.
Upper castes are typically vegetarian, lower castes eat meat.
This seems to be a helpful discussion on the topic
https://old.reddit.com/r/india/comments/eogkmk/vegetarianism_in_india_has_more_to_do_with_caste/
Thank you for the link (and using old reddit)!
Your link included a link to a source article for that post.
One thing I found confusing from the source article are these two statements:
and
I'm trying to understand if dairy or other animal products are excluded on religious grounds by the more puritan caste. Do you know?
Eggs are considered meat in Indian vegetarianism. So while an Indian vegetarian will drink milk or eat honey, they won't eat eggs or use eggs in cooking or baking. Foods that use eggs will get marked as containing meat in menus in restaurants.
So in the second quote, you should read that as the government wanting to optionally provide meat in schools.
With the caveat that some Hindus will eat unfertilised eggs as they don't contain a life. Granted, ovolacto vegetarianism is rarer.
Thank you, very interesting!
Yes. In fact, the most strict religious dietary restrictions even include staple vegetables like onions and garlic.
That's crazy, no onions or garlic? I've been a vegetarian for decades, so giving up meat obviously isn't an issue. But garlic? Call me an unrepentant sinner.
This is specific to very strict Jains, and is not true of most vegetarians in India. When most Indians talk about "veg" (as opposed to "non veg"), they're just referring to not using meat (or eggs, as discussed in another comment).
This has been a fun exploration; I've been a vegetarian for a long time and I'm always curious about the different practices and reasons other cultures have. I find this except from another article:
As someone who first switched to only eating meat that I hunted or fished myself due to ethics and sustainability, and then as I moved more into the city and didn't have time I realized I just didn't miss it anymore.
So it's interesting to read about another cultures ethical views on decisions I've also taken over the years.
For some Chinese / Taiwanese Buddhists, it's a diet which excludes meat plus "five spices"
Chinese language wiki on pañca parivyaya , they list four allium species including garlic onions chives, plus Ferula assafoetida
The reasoning is that the smell (or breath) is a distraction from meditation and prayer
Maybe the original intent is kindness to fellow monks?
Years ago I was on a climbing expedition with a marine sergeant from New York, and his breath was so bad it could wake me up in the tent at night so that on the third day we had to have a talk about brushing teeth. I can definitely see shared sleeping quarters giving rise to some interesting rules about garlic, lol.
How did he take it? I imagine it's tough broaching person hygiene issues with grown up people
Well, he was a sergeant in the Marines so of course I broached it delicately.
Brochacho was the nickname I gave him for the trip, lol. When you have to poop into a bag while roped up to people while crossing glaciers or mixed rock/ice pitches, a lot of the usual social decorum goes out the window!
Can you explain this a bit more ?? You guys were crossing dangerous terrain so everybody is roped to other people....and then when someone has to poop (what about pee?) they get a bit more rope to find a bush or go behind a big rock? And what is a pitch? Quick google
That doesn't tell me anything. Like, a small ice Cliff? Was this a recreational trip or for research or something else?
The details vary by terrain, but a typical climbing rope is about 60 meters. On glaciers you space out butterfly knots in the ropes so that of someone falls through a snow bridge, there is enough rope to the person in front of them and/or behind them that they self arrest and raise the person out.
Likewise for climbing up icy terrain, you space out and minimize slack between climbers so if one person slips, the test can self arrest using ice axes and stop the fall.
For vertical accents, you all anchor in, and then have a lead climber and belayer. You then ascend, but that is a bit more complicated a process.
When you are out on a mountain, there isn't much privacy. On top of that, you are eating a lot and burning 4-5k calories or more. So on long multi day climbs, you need to poop. Alpine environments are fragile ecosystems, so you pack out what you pack in.
You carry what are often called wag bags; resealable bags with TP and kitty litter basically. So you poop, get the air out, reseal, pack away. If someone needs to poop mid-day, or even pee, you gotta go. If your are on a glacier, you can't go off rope without a whole process to probe for hidden crevasses and rope out a safe area, which is time consuming and only done when seeing camp.
So you do your best to wiggle your butt out of your layers of pants and hardshells, and do your best to poop or pee while still roped in.
More modest teams will look the other way. More comfortable teams will call out Olympic judge scoring banter.
On that trip we had some exciting bathroom sagas, including when a mountain goat ran intercept!
Hope that helps!
That's hilarious!!
I'm definitely a home body, so I'll take my lack of Olympic judge scoring banter and lack of mountain goats thanks! Maybe if someone is having a hard time the goat could be a good motivator hahahaha
Human beings are so weird! That any member of our species will run 22km a day or willingly put themselves in such precarious positions that we'd need to poop in bags with folks cheering is also why some of us made it to the moon, I guess. :D
My understanding is that the Brahmin caste is (Traditionally) vegetarian and that is the priestly/highest caste. Jains seem to be supported as upholding the same purity but most are in the higher end of the General castes. (I'm very very much not an expert, but this is the gist). This seems to be supported by the ruling party nationally and/or in some of the specific states. It also seems to be very much a law that is targeted at Muslims (and lower castes?) so it may be enforced differently against them than against other castes of Hindus.
Here's a recent national law: India's Muslims see discrimination in new religion based citizenship law
Very helpful, thank you!
While it's never as easy as separating exclusionary actions on the grounds of cultural incompatibility or religious piety from bigotry and racism, I do think that as a wider society, the west is at odds for how to have this conversation.
France and Quebec have a no religious symbols in public buildings and roles initiative that despite impacting different groups disproportionately, are the will of the culture in those places. I've only heard the argument that the goals of each initiative are bigoted and exclusionary, but what about the discussion about each french society's desire to self actualize without religion?
While it's far more of a situation than no vegetarians allowed, why can't these people create a society based around a common diet?
At least learning how to have these conversations is, I think, would deflate so much of what the reactionary right uses as fuel for their intolerance, but (to me) lefty is far too hung up on details to see the forest behind the trees.
I think that the exclusion of religious symbols is also problematic. Because those are not the opinions of all of their society, just the majority one. In both cases, the majority government (or at least the government in power) is restricting primarily the behavior of the minority (whether in power or numbers) and particularly in both cases they're often deliberately targeting Muslims. Limiting where one can wear "modest attire" that potentially distinguishes one as Muslim ignores that their cultural "modest attire" is just as inextricably tied to their cultural Christianity. It's deliberate when the things targeted just happen to be things that the majority faith (cultural or practicing) is rarely if ever religiously obligated to do or aren't visible.
"Why can't they create a society around a common diet" is sort of obvious when there are millions of people who don't eat that diet who also need a place to live. It's the sort of dog whistle of "values" that small towns or neighborhoods use to exclude racial minorities. And then making a big to-do about how "they" live in squalor.
Because "common diet" is actually religious and caste restriction. And then it's "why can't they exclude low castes and other religions?" Which feels much more obviously wrong. (And if it doesn't, that's a separate problem.) It's their country and they have to figure it out but colonialism really is at the heart of everything in my post and I got no solution to unwind the harm done there.
I don't know if I think cultural incompatibility is a thing that exists at an individual people level. Most of the time I think people can get along. I think government or leadership causes the problem, which means it's not a cultural incompatibility at all. (That also feels dogwhistle-y but that could just be my back being up on discrimination. )