People have often commented to me, irl, before that I'd make a great teacher. Having a masters in physics, I could easily teach physics, as well as some lower classes of math and chemistry, and...
People have often commented to me, irl, before that I'd make a great teacher. Having a masters in physics, I could easily teach physics, as well as some lower classes of math and chemistry, and probably do a good job at it.
Some of the reasons are specific to the Netherlands, some are more generic trends among the richer nations. More than anything though, this has been a long time coming and I genuinely struggle to see why we don't increase salaries in public schools, ensure that teachers get the help they need and more. Teacher prepare the next generation more than any other job in our society.
I've seen 'cost' being a part of the reason but honestly, even a slight increase in taxation (or less subsidising) fossil fuel companies, tobacco, or other commodities which have a negative impact on our society could be enough for that.
It's crazy that we don't pay teachers more. Even from the most cynical perspective, education is vital for a strong economy. There's ROI in prioritizing it, which means the cost argument doesn't...
It's crazy that we don't pay teachers more. Even from the most cynical perspective, education is vital for a strong economy. There's ROI in prioritizing it, which means the cost argument doesn't really work. It's political will we're lacking.
I think we should be paying teachers at all levels six figures with improved benefits and retirement. Along with more investment in the education system at large.
Stop, please, I can only dream. I'm tenured math faculty with over seven years at a college in the US and my base pay is about half way to six figures. I skipped a mortgage payment last month to...
I think we should be paying teachers at all levels six figures with improved benefits and retirement
Stop, please, I can only dream. I'm tenured math faculty with over seven years at a college in the US and my base pay is about half way to six figures.
I skipped a mortgage payment last month to pay to repair my car. Wife has no health insurance. Behind on all my bills. And I have no expensive habits. I'm just whining now I guess, but good lord what I'd give to be paid a decent wage.
I'm taking some programming classes next term on top of my teaching load so I can use a student scholarship at my institution to pay my kid's daycare. Hoping those skills will help me to improve my earning potential.
This is one of the reasons I left academia. My entry level job in industry after my master's paid more than I'd make potentially ever in academia even if the stars aligned and I got one of those...
This is one of the reasons I left academia. My entry level job in industry after my master's paid more than I'd make potentially ever in academia even if the stars aligned and I got one of those dream tenure-track positions. It's a shame.
I’ve said that before in previous discussions and all manner of BS grads descended to tell me that teachers, in fact, do not want to make more money lol. But 100% if you paid teachers an amount...
I’ve said that before in previous discussions and all manner of BS grads descended to tell me that teachers, in fact, do not want to make more money lol. But 100% if you paid teachers an amount that most people would find laughable, like you said—150k, say—two things would happen: a) no one would be talking about teachers “not being respected” within a few years, and b) if you watched who laughed when you first said that amount, you’d have a good idea of where the problems lie.
In the US, the Secretary of Education is a cabinet job. The longest anyone is in that job is unlikely to surpass 8 years. The return on that investment will go to someone else later, who will take...
In the US, the Secretary of Education is a cabinet job. The longest anyone is in that job is unlikely to surpass 8 years. The return on that investment will go to someone else later, who will take credit for how things got better. The whole thing is messed up.
That's if the person in that position is there to honestly try to improve things. This doesn't always happen.
I'm sure increased pay would be welcome and it's probably necessary when skilled people have more lucrative alternatives. But I wonder what other problems there are that we can't just buy our way...
I'm sure increased pay would be welcome and it's probably necessary when skilled people have more lucrative alternatives. But I wonder what other problems there are that we can't just buy our way out of.
For example, are jobs dealing with the public becoming increasingly unpleasant? If so, why?
I can only speak for the Netherlands, obviously, but over here some complaints are, in no particular order: The government often changing parts of the education rapidly, to the frustration of...
I can only speak for the Netherlands, obviously, but over here some complaints are, in no particular order:
The government often changing parts of the education rapidly, to the frustration of teachers.
Increased administrative burden. Something that is also affecting our healthcare incidentally.
Parents being less respectful, something bordering harassment even over trivial things.
Generally speaking having less respect from society.
No member you were responding to but jobs dealing with the public such as librarians have for sure become increasingly unpleasant, for example Libraries are one of the last places with air...
No member you were responding to but jobs dealing with the public such as librarians have for sure become increasingly unpleasant, for example
Libraries are one of the last places with air conditioning/heat and washrooms that is free. Many librarians have become de facto front linesocial workers in dealing with transient/homeless people or folks with mental health needs. Librarians themselves are showing signs of mental distress
I quit my job as a librarian last fall. It was not because I had become bored living out the hackneyed stereotype of a cat-eye-glasses-wearing librarian shushing patrons from behind an imposing mahogany desk. No, I left the library because I had begun to burn out and experience symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.
Even my little humble rural library became the de facto place for people who menstruate to obtain free santitary products and COVID testing kits.
As more pillars of public civic are dismantled, it puts more load and stress onto the remaining pillars.
Notable (and predictable) points for me It's a bummer that we treat education as a cost center. It might be interesting if we set some public sector jobs as a percentage of median local income or...
Notable (and predictable) points for me
Across rich countries, teachers earn about 10% less than the average for people with tertiary education.
In America ... They earn 26% less than other similarly educated professionals
It's a bummer that we treat education as a cost center. It might be interesting if we set some public sector jobs as a percentage of median local income or something.
newbies are asked to perform most of the same tasks as veterans
old hands who are capable of giving more ... find few opportunities to flourish
Being unfirable and pensioned as the only incentives for tenure is probably not the best recipe for long term motivation.
modest wages had not discouraged female applicants as much as they had put off men ... women tend to earn less in all walks of life, so the wage penalty they suffer is lower than for male colleagues
this is changing as discrimination and other obstacles that hold back women’s wages recede
My perception (at least in America in lower education) is that we've long relied on single income couples or largely asymmetric income couples to subsidize work that we'd generally consider socially positive. Things are improving for women and might improve compensation for some of that work, but I don't see the trend changing overall. Why pay more when you can get it for less/free?
There also may be more efficient and creative ways ... alternatives to the “one-teacher-per-classroom”
they adapt to a new challenge facing teachers and students alike: how best to make use of artificial intelligence
Maybe they had to randomly throw that one it at the very end for SEO?
An educated proletariat is a dangerous thing to the ruling class, and is part of why Republicans have been so keen to dismantle public education...they see it as a right that should be reserved...
It's a bummer that we treat education as a cost center.
So that's why they support vouchers? I suspect most parents want their kids educated, but some are wary of the kind of education that schools want to provide. They think it's different from what...
So that's why they support vouchers?
I suspect most parents want their kids educated, but some are wary of the kind of education that schools want to provide. They think it's different from what they'd be in favor of, because educators have different values than they have.
Maybe this lack of trust is unfounded, but it's different from not wanting education at all.
(And given that the news media is often telling us that there are lots of things wrong with schools, it seems relatable?)
Vouchers take money away from public schools (usually from ones that are already struggling with funding) and give them to private, often religion institutions. Supporting vouchers is a big part...
Vouchers take money away from public schools (usually from ones that are already struggling with funding) and give them to private, often religion institutions. Supporting vouchers is a big part of dismantling public schools. A great number of the things wrong with American public schools are directly tied to uneven funding.
I think those are good reasons why many people who support public schools don’t like vouchers, but I’m not sure if reversing it really gets at the motivations of the other side.
I think those are good reasons why many people who support public schools don’t like vouchers, but I’m not sure if reversing it really gets at the motivations of the other side.
I actually think that you hit the nail on the head when it came to their reasoning. But I think your analysis begs another question - is what the parents are asking for a reasonable thing to...
I actually think that you hit the nail on the head when it came to their reasoning.
But I think your analysis begs another question - is what the parents are asking for a reasonable thing to expect from their educators?
And should the government - our collective tax dollars - be footing the bill for their discretion?
If vouchers don't cover the full cost of private school but do reduce funds for public schools to a crippling level, that is a huge disadvantage to children from poor families
If vouchers don't cover the full cost of private school but do reduce funds for public schools to a crippling level, that is a huge disadvantage to children from poor families
Yes, that’s a concern, but our predictions about the likely effects doesn’t mean much when judging other people’s motivations, which will be based on their predictions about the likely effects....
Yes, that’s a concern, but our predictions about the likely effects doesn’t mean much when judging other people’s motivations, which will be based on their predictions about the likely effects.
(For example, I think a free-market type might assume that competition is good for schools.)
I don't disagree, but I don't interpret the linked article that way. I read it as a (misguided) concern that educating everyone will lead to a shortage of physical labor and a surplus of white...
An educated proletariat is a dangerous thing to the ruling class
I don't disagree, but I don't interpret the linked article that way. I read it as a (misguided) concern that educating everyone will lead to a shortage of physical labor and a surplus of white collar labor. Probably today we can either say that is no longer a problem or that concern came to fruition some time ago, depending on your perspective.
While your assessment is largely correct, it's a concern that is still genuinely rooted in trying to dismantle public education. Remember that mandatory public education in the USA is a byproduct...
While your assessment is largely correct, it's a concern that is still genuinely rooted in trying to dismantle public education.
Remember that mandatory public education in the USA is a byproduct of reformation, and thus has always been opposed by conservatives. Some More News did a great bit on some of the earlier attacks conservatives have done.
People have often commented to me, irl, before that I'd make a great teacher. Having a masters in physics, I could easily teach physics, as well as some lower classes of math and chemistry, and probably do a good job at it.
Some of the reasons are specific to the Netherlands, some are more generic trends among the richer nations. More than anything though, this has been a long time coming and I genuinely struggle to see why we don't increase salaries in public schools, ensure that teachers get the help they need and more. Teacher prepare the next generation more than any other job in our society.
I've seen 'cost' being a part of the reason but honestly, even a slight increase in taxation (or less subsidising) fossil fuel companies, tobacco, or other commodities which have a negative impact on our society could be enough for that.
It's crazy that we don't pay teachers more. Even from the most cynical perspective, education is vital for a strong economy. There's ROI in prioritizing it, which means the cost argument doesn't really work. It's political will we're lacking.
I think we should be paying teachers at all levels six figures with improved benefits and retirement. Along with more investment in the education system at large.
Stop, please, I can only dream. I'm tenured math faculty with over seven years at a college in the US and my base pay is about half way to six figures.
I skipped a mortgage payment last month to pay to repair my car. Wife has no health insurance. Behind on all my bills. And I have no expensive habits. I'm just whining now I guess, but good lord what I'd give to be paid a decent wage.
I'm taking some programming classes next term on top of my teaching load so I can use a student scholarship at my institution to pay my kid's daycare. Hoping those skills will help me to improve my earning potential.
This is one of the reasons I left academia. My entry level job in industry after my master's paid more than I'd make potentially ever in academia even if the stars aligned and I got one of those dream tenure-track positions. It's a shame.
I’ve said that before in previous discussions and all manner of BS grads descended to tell me that teachers, in fact, do not want to make more money lol. But 100% if you paid teachers an amount that most people would find laughable, like you said—150k, say—two things would happen: a) no one would be talking about teachers “not being respected” within a few years, and b) if you watched who laughed when you first said that amount, you’d have a good idea of where the problems lie.
In the US, the Secretary of Education is a cabinet job. The longest anyone is in that job is unlikely to surpass 8 years. The return on that investment will go to someone else later, who will take credit for how things got better. The whole thing is messed up.
That's if the person in that position is there to honestly try to improve things. This doesn't always happen.
I'm sure increased pay would be welcome and it's probably necessary when skilled people have more lucrative alternatives. But I wonder what other problems there are that we can't just buy our way out of.
For example, are jobs dealing with the public becoming increasingly unpleasant? If so, why?
I can only speak for the Netherlands, obviously, but over here some complaints are, in no particular order:
No member you were responding to but jobs dealing with the public such as librarians have for sure become increasingly unpleasant, for example
Libraries are one of the last places with air conditioning/heat and washrooms that is free. Many librarians have become de facto front line social workers in dealing with transient/homeless people or folks with mental health needs. Librarians themselves are showing signs of mental distress
Even my little humble rural library became the de facto place for people who menstruate to obtain free santitary products and COVID testing kits.
As more pillars of public civic are dismantled, it puts more load and stress onto the remaining pillars.
Notable (and predictable) points for me
It's a bummer that we treat education as a cost center. It might be interesting if we set some public sector jobs as a percentage of median local income or something.
Being unfirable and pensioned as the only incentives for tenure is probably not the best recipe for long term motivation.
My perception (at least in America in lower education) is that we've long relied on single income couples or largely asymmetric income couples to subsidize work that we'd generally consider socially positive. Things are improving for women and might improve compensation for some of that work, but I don't see the trend changing overall. Why pay more when you can get it for less/free?
Maybe they had to randomly throw that one it at the very end for SEO?
An educated proletariat is a dangerous thing to the ruling class, and is part of why Republicans have been so keen to dismantle public education...they see it as a right that should be reserved for the wealthy ruling class.
So that's why they support vouchers?
I suspect most parents want their kids educated, but some are wary of the kind of education that schools want to provide. They think it's different from what they'd be in favor of, because educators have different values than they have.
Maybe this lack of trust is unfounded, but it's different from not wanting education at all.
(And given that the news media is often telling us that there are lots of things wrong with schools, it seems relatable?)
Vouchers take money away from public schools (usually from ones that are already struggling with funding) and give them to private, often religion institutions. Supporting vouchers is a big part of dismantling public schools. A great number of the things wrong with American public schools are directly tied to uneven funding.
I think those are good reasons why many people who support public schools don’t like vouchers, but I’m not sure if reversing it really gets at the motivations of the other side.
I actually think that you hit the nail on the head when it came to their reasoning.
But I think your analysis begs another question - is what the parents are asking for a reasonable thing to expect from their educators?
And should the government - our collective tax dollars - be footing the bill for their discretion?
If vouchers don't cover the full cost of private school but do reduce funds for public schools to a crippling level, that is a huge disadvantage to children from poor families
Yes, that’s a concern, but our predictions about the likely effects doesn’t mean much when judging other people’s motivations, which will be based on their predictions about the likely effects.
(For example, I think a free-market type might assume that competition is good for schools.)
I don't disagree, but I don't interpret the linked article that way. I read it as a (misguided) concern that educating everyone will lead to a shortage of physical labor and a surplus of white collar labor. Probably today we can either say that is no longer a problem or that concern came to fruition some time ago, depending on your perspective.
While your assessment is largely correct, it's a concern that is still genuinely rooted in trying to dismantle public education.
Remember that mandatory public education in the USA is a byproduct of reformation, and thus has always been opposed by conservatives. Some More News did a great bit on some of the earlier attacks conservatives have done.
Mirror: https://archive.is/cdrkC