I've always found the concepts of introversion and extroversion to behave like MBTI or astrological signs in our discourse. People like to reflect on how the label matches their personalities and...
I've always found the concepts of introversion and extroversion to behave like MBTI or astrological signs in our discourse. People like to reflect on how the label matches their personalities and (for the real keeners) whether a deeper dive into moons and houses or hybrids/offshoots of Jung's terms for their personality more specifically.
I love it all, but it's also just hogwash. Lol. Based on our preferences for people, the environment and the context, we like certain individuals, certain groups and certain circumstances, and all of that depends on how we're feeling at the time.
I'm sure that everyone was recharged by a group, recharged alone or any combination of the two at some point in their life, so why the limiting labels? Because they help us understand complex topics. That's all. There's no need to declare which team you play for.
Seconding this. Never ever felt recharged after hanging out in a group. One or two people (and they have to be very specific people for me to actually recharge) is the max for me to actually feel...
Seconding this. Never ever felt recharged after hanging out in a group.
One or two people (and they have to be very specific people for me to actually recharge) is the max for me to actually feel like I'm charging instead of draining.
Can't remember such a time. Once there is a crowd, it's hard work to keep the common conversation going and healthy (giving time to everyone, picking inclusive topics, getting everyone up to speed...
Can't remember such a time.
Once there is a crowd, it's hard work to keep the common conversation going and healthy (giving time to everyone, picking inclusive topics, getting everyone up to speed and/or dumbing stuff down). So either I help do it, which is work, or shove it to someone else and feel bad afterwards.
And once you add new and/or distant people to the mix, it's automatic masking time.
I've been part of a group, and eventually the conversations stopped going anywhere. After the initial anxiety about being accepted, it became only rehashing old stuff. And when I got curious, most didn't get curious about same things, so back to masking to maintain the sense of cohesion.
I am slowly learning to tell people in their face how I feel with bare minimum niceties nowadays and pick off people one by one to chat with.
And learning to cope with rejection. Even when it's me doing the rejecting. Damn my stupid brain.
Yeah, I feel ya. That pretty much sums up conversation dynamics as a whole. Search for a topic that keeps it interesting Ensure that there's no bullying/stand up for yourself, others or concepts...
Yeah, I feel ya. That pretty much sums up conversation dynamics as a whole.
Search for a topic that keeps it interesting
Ensure that there's no bullying/stand up for yourself, others or concepts
Be cordial and nice unless somebody crosses a line
Stave off boredom in a room where conversing is required yet there are no interesting people
Manage pregnant pauses with grace and fight urge to look at phone or make an excuse to leave
These are definitely the realities of it for me, too. I guess my glass half full approach to this is that I'll find somebody that I can A) learn something from, B) riff on a hike with or c) who I have something in common with (where we grew up, what school was like, etc.)
Typically, there's enough of what I mentioned above that I'm not forced to flee. That said, I'm often somebody who's at the party or event the longest, so perhaps I just have more of a hopeful/tolerant propensity than most.
Everybody's awkward in those situations. What keeps me going is the belief that there's an interesting person out there who's looking to cut the shit and get into it, and I'll keep looking while I'm still in attendance.
My last resort is to isolate an unknown person and just ask about what the person does (hobbies, work, whatever) and then just squeeze them dry for whatever they know about the topic. Like give me...
My last resort is to isolate an unknown person and just ask about what the person does (hobbies, work, whatever) and then just squeeze them dry for whatever they know about the topic. Like give me the juicy details. I always signal "you are valuable to society, be proud of yourself" for basically any kind of job and always try to relate positively to it. For hobbies it's simpler and I merely acknowledge that "our hobbies are what we life for after all".
Most people are genuinely surprised by actual legitimate interest. And I do drill on so they keep talking. Since this kind of conversation is not normal, many will actually have to think about their jobs in a kinda different light than usual and seem to enjoy it. And I get to learn stuff.
Yeah, I'm all about this. Honestly, it's a great starting point for most conversations with strangers, and if they're willing to throw the ball back to you and ask some questions, you've got a...
Yeah, I'm all about this. Honestly, it's a great starting point for most conversations with strangers, and if they're willing to throw the ball back to you and ask some questions, you've got a good party experience on your hands.
When I find somebody like this, I'll often try to leverage our experience toward another person by roping them in on whatever topic we're discussing, then, then do the same pass of the ball now that they're in on it.
Being a facilitator for fun is such an exciting project in social settings, and frankly, it's hard to stay focused on individual connections and not get carried away with trying to create group group experiences.
I love hanging out with a few of my neurodivergent friends. We can be active or just both sit on our phones showing memes to each other. The ability to just be present with people rather than...
I love hanging out with a few of my neurodivergent friends. We can be active or just both sit on our phones showing memes to each other. The ability to just be present with people rather than having to perform socialization makes a huge difference for me as an introvert.
Same. Even if it's with close friends. Anymore than that and it gets draining. Even if it is fun and I'm enjoying myself. In 2021, I went on a big group vacation. 14 of us went down to Orlando for...
Same. Even if it's with close friends. Anymore than that and it gets draining. Even if it is fun and I'm enjoying myself.
In 2021, I went on a big group vacation. 14 of us went down to Orlando for a week. And we stayed in one vacation house. Almost everyone that went I'd known for at least 3-5yrs, mainly online (though some of us had met up briefly in person before this). Only a couple new faces. But it was still super draining. There were several times I just holed up in my room for a couple hours to recharge. Sit on my computer, play on my Switch, take a nap, etc. Or I'd go up to the other entertainment room and watch someone play a game, just the two of us.
And that might after going mini golfing or going out to lunch. Again, I enjoyed it, but I still needed some time to recharge.
But if it's just me and one or two other people talking? I can do that all night. I have done that all night, many times.
No. I am drained by social interaction to such a high degree that it is silly to think I am anything other than an introvert. That has always been the case. That includes my dearest friends, my...
No. I am drained by social interaction to such a high degree that it is silly to think I am anything other than an introvert. That has always been the case.
That includes my dearest friends, my wife, and my son. I don't know about astrology, and I am unfamiliar with MBTI. Whatever the cause, introverts exist. Those who have difficulty with the concept are simply not introverts. They belong to the dominant group and the distinction does not bring them any benefit.
Furthermore, it is reductionist to ignore that "labels" can be both limiting and freeing in different ways.
Reductionist to ignore labels, but I'd argue it can also be self limiting to define yourself by them. Know thyself, of course. But also, it's important that we all leave room to surprise ourselves...
Reductionist to ignore labels, but I'd argue it can also be self limiting to define yourself by them.
Know thyself, of course. But also, it's important that we all leave room to surprise ourselves of what we're capable of, too.
I'm not telling anybody who to be, but I do know that I appreciate being challenged and believe that others sometimes do, too.
I'll take a hike and go bark up another tree now lol.
I agree with you. It's nearly a form of cold reading, making general statements that are bound to resonate with a huge percentage of people. Something I recently learned - some employers make job...
I love it all, but it's also just hogwash.
I agree with you. It's nearly a form of cold reading, making general statements that are bound to resonate with a huge percentage of people.
Something I recently learned - some employers make job candidates take a personality test, and will exclude them from the process if they are specific types they are not looking for, as that means they may not be a "culture fit." This drives me absolutely nuts. I don't oppose having new employees take one of these tests after hiring to attempt to establish communication practices that will work best for everyone, but they should not be used as a candidate screener.
Oh, absolutely. Our institution using something called Clifton strengths which is a little more positive and collaborative in its approach. While it helps get conversation styles going, I feel...
Oh, absolutely. Our institution using something called Clifton strengths which is a little more positive and collaborative in its approach. While it helps get conversation styles going, I feel like the moment you start relying too heavily on it, the navel gazing begins.
Well, I feel like that much of the time when people begin discussing 'how they are' to you.
If you've worked together long enough, you know how they are (or better yet, how you see them based on their behavior). Somebody nee explaining who they are is helpful, but also sometimes a half-cocked attempt at self awareness or a projection of who they think they are -- all to be taken with hefty salt.
“When a measure becomes a target, it ceased to be a useful measure” (Oh god I just realised this is entirely how the tech industry works — every measure must become a target always and forever!)...
While it helps get conversation styles going, I feel like the moment you start relying too heavily on it, the navel gazing begins.
“When a measure becomes a target, it ceased to be a useful measure”
(Oh god I just realised this is entirely how the tech industry works — every measure must become a target always and forever!)
If you’re using these things to get an idea of how to better relate to people, that’s useful and good. But as soon as it turns into “well if you’re not XYZ then we won’t hire you” then it immediately stops being useful in any way.
Yeah, it's fine for what it is. Not sure if your secondary Ed institution encourages it as much as mine does, but it seems like whatever department I join, there's Strengths waiting for me.
Yeah, it's fine for what it is. Not sure if your secondary Ed institution encourages it as much as mine does, but it seems like whatever department I join, there's Strengths waiting for me.
Oh that was like, 8 years ago for us, now we're on Working Genius (because I assume that's what the current executive team/divisional leadership is on.) I'm Discernment and Enablement. (Were...
Oh that was like, 8 years ago for us, now we're on Working Genius (because I assume that's what the current executive team/divisional leadership is on.)
I'm Discernment and Enablement. (Were mostly all enablement )
My top three strengths out of five were Input, Learning and Intellection. Like... I collect information, learn things and then think about them. I don't even remember the other 2 anymore. Lol I'm...
My top three strengths out of five were Input, Learning and Intellection. Like... I collect information, learn things and then think about them.
I don't even remember the other 2 anymore. Lol
I'm very much not a WOO tho
I think I am INFP but I'm the MBTI hater so (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Yeah, samesies. That said, it doesn't stop me from sharing my top five, too! Strategy, Communication, Individualization, Woo and one other. As for the ENTJ comment, I just ripped that off of an...
Yeah, samesies. That said, it doesn't stop me from sharing my top five, too!
Strategy, Communication, Individualization, Woo and one other. As for the ENTJ comment, I just ripped that off of an old WIRED article title. For all I know, I'm an Ascendant Extrovert on the seventh house Baratheon rising.
Introversion/extraversion is the only aspect of MBTI that is well supported by the science — although the way that MBTI characterizes it is highly misleading. Introversion not an on/off thing....
Introversion/extraversion is the only aspect of MBTI that is well supported by the science — although the way that MBTI characterizes it is highly misleading.
Introversion not an on/off thing. It's a normal distribution, where most people fall in the middle (neither particularly introverted nor extraverted). But there are some pretty fundamental brain differences between people who do fall at the far ends of the scale.
From memory it comes down to adrenaline sensitivity. I.e. If you are insensitive, you need a higher level of stimulation to get the same "hit" of adrenaline and so tend to be more extraverted.
From memory it comes down to adrenaline sensitivity. I.e. If you are insensitive, you need a higher level of stimulation to get the same "hit" of adrenaline and so tend to be more extraverted.
This comment is going to meander a bit. I reject the idea of introversion/extroversion (but I'll admit they are handy labels when you need to generalize). Still, I found the article interesting,...
This comment is going to meander a bit.
I reject the idea of introversion/extroversion (but I'll admit they are handy labels when you need to generalize). Still, I found the article interesting, and I strongly relate to the phenomenon it describes. Though I always attributed it to ADHD/whatever the hell else is going on in my noggin.
I remember when I first learned about masking and how my "extroversion" could be a coping mechanism that I use. Being outgoing as a means to deflect attention away from my flaws, which makes people like me more, which makes me mask more, which, in the end, results in relationships where everyone liked me, but the nature of masking meant that I wasn't really being vulnerable, and so the relationships just end up feeling superficial.
The idea of "otroversion" kind of brings that to mind. I do really enjoy deep conversations, and I enjoy hanging out with the groups of people. On the other hand, I despise the family gatherings at my in-laws, where conversation could be considered surface-level at best. Everyone seems bored, but it's like they want it to be boring. Like, the gathering is "just what you do" rather than trying to make it anything more.
I love solitude but I hate feeling lonely. Sometimes I feel loneliest when I'm with others. It's something that I can try to explain to those closest to me, but it's also something they never really understand. Trying to explain it usually makes me feel worse.
I like the idea of accepting this about myself. I've been trending that direction for a few years now, but it's tough. It makes me feel like an asshole sometimes. But maybe that's just my old masking habit kicking in, making me feel anxious because I'm worried the group won't like me if I don't act like the life of the party.
I say this with the intention of sympathy, and not an attempt to minimize your feelings: a lot of people feel this way, myself included. If you're with a group you don't feel comfortable in, it is...
I love solitude but I hate feeling lonely. Sometimes I feel loneliest when I'm with others. It's something that I can try to explain to those closest to me, but it's also something they never really understand. Trying to explain it usually makes me feel worse.
I say this with the intention of sympathy, and not an attempt to minimize your feelings: a lot of people feel this way, myself included.
If you're with a group you don't feel comfortable in, it is completely normal for that to result in loneliness, as you may begin questioning why you don't feel like you belong, and even engage in negative self-talk ("It must be my fault I don't fit in."). It is also normal to feel like you belong some days, and not so much other days.
Personal rant
One of my biggest struggles is that I will often push people away if they do or say something that I disagree with. If it was something big (racism, etc.), that would logical, but it's almost always something small that I could likely engage in conversation about to understand their perspective on. As you can imagine, this pushes me into loneliness.
Even though I have a partner, I am still in a situation where I don't have other people I spend time with regularly- I currently don't have any friend or hobby groups, and I do not have any coworkers that I communicate with. While my partner does everything for me that I want and need from a relationship, I still feel lonely because I am missing other connections.
I'm going to make a serious effort in the next handful of months to make new connections. I am going to step out of my comfort zone and jump into hobbies I've had interest in but very limited experience with. Maybe most of the people I meet in these groups will hate me for my lack of knowledge. But most likely, I will find some people to connect with, even if it just surface level circling around the hobby. And I need to accept that those types of relationships are completely fine, and I should not block them out just because I am looking for something deeper in the future.
And I say this with the intention of sympathy, and not an attempt to minimize your feelings: you may not be able to generalise from your own experience. My related story: during my childs ADHD...
I say this with the intention of sympathy, and not an attempt to minimize your feelings: a lot of people feel this way, myself included.
And I say this with the intention of sympathy, and not an attempt to minimize your feelings: you may not be able to generalise from your own experience.
My related story: during my childs ADHD assessment I realised I probably needed an assessment too as I often had to ask the psychologist and the psychiatrist if this or that wasn't "normal".
So maybe, just maybe you are an otrovert too! (If it's even a thing!!)
Sure, but I was replying to someone who expressed frustration with being misunderstood, and I was attempting to make them feel heard and not alone. Everyone has a unique story. No two people have...
you may not be able to generalise from your own experience.
Sure, but I was replying to someone who expressed frustration with being misunderstood, and I was attempting to make them feel heard and not alone.
Everyone has a unique story. No two people have an identical flow of thoughts, series of emotional responses, etc. Diagnoses have immense value in formulating a treatment plan. Self-defined labels are "riskier" in terms of accuracy, but many times they lead to support groups (even if they are informal) and help people feel heard. But support can extend beyond labels.
We are all human, and we should attempt to connect with others from a place of compassion. Some of us will have more points of understanding than others. Many people will disregard everything about a person if they can be identified as having a trait they look down on (which is especially apparent in today's political climate). This is why it is more important than ever to be kind when you can.
As an example, just because I am straight that does not mean I cannot be an LGBTQ+ ally. Just because I may not have the same set of experiences as others, does not mean I will stop connecting with others when I can. I will do my best to not offend, of course, but I would rather frustrate a couple people over letting my fear keep me from reaching out to someone who may truly need it or benefit from it.
While labeling personality traits into such terms as introverted and extroverted is in many ways flawed and reductive, and this third option introduced here with otroverted does seem like sort of...
While labeling personality traits into such terms as introverted and extroverted is in many ways flawed and reductive, and this third option introduced here with otroverted does seem like sort of a subset of the introverted trait, I must admit I personally found it a bit more fitting than the usual introverted stereotypes. Maybe it will resonate with others.
Agreed. I'm not sure if introversion, elsewhere in the world, has been taken to be as necessarily synonymous with awkwardness, anxiety, poor social skills, inferiority complexes, etc. as it seems...
Agreed. I'm not sure if introversion, elsewhere in the world, has been taken to be as necessarily synonymous with awkwardness, anxiety, poor social skills, inferiority complexes, etc. as it seems to have become in the US... but maybe it will be useful to have a term to refer to and not have to clear up a bunch of assumptions about shyness and possible autism every time someone asks if I'm introverted. Hell, if anything, my otroversion is a product of arrogance - feeling like most others don't measure up, so why bother? (I'm a recovering misanthrope, don't hold it against me)
I felt that this article was really light on details about what makes this a "superpower". Sure, self-acceptance and independence are good, but far from "super". If anything, we have the opposite...
I felt that this article was really light on details about what makes this a "superpower". Sure, self-acceptance and independence are good, but far from "super".
If anything, we have the opposite problem. The article says:
Writers, thinkers, policymakers, and even the US surgeon general have cited the decline of communal life as a principal cause of poor mental health and proposed solutions ranging from getting off social media to expanding our social support networks. In theory, these ideas are not without merit. But in practice, we are having more and more conversations about the importance of community, while continuing to become lonelier and more divided than ever.
It's not that encouraging socializing is counterproductive. It's starting to look like more of a problem, so it's getting more attention over time. To me, this just means that people are getting better and better at withdrawing from society, and I'm not sure the best move is to encourage it.
While I'm happy to see people being more in tune and honest with their feelings these days, it's also good to realize that your feelings are not always the most important thing. To me, maturity is realizing that sometimes your feelings should be secondary in importance while you do what is practical and beneficial for yourself and others. If you never accept invitations from friends, you'll eventually stop having friends. Some people feel ok with this, but if this is a widespread phenomenon, it might not be the healthiest thing in the long run for the individual and society overall. If it's the norm to isolate yourself, then you can't even be an occasional participant to a friend group, because there aren't enough friends groups anymore.
I myself am an introvert, and looking back at my life, I see detrimental effects from excessive social isolation at certain times in my past. It took a lot of work and therapy to get to a better state (not extremely social, but not extremely isolated either). I'm not saying that I'd become a social butterfly if I had a chance to do it all over again, but saying "yes" to invites just a few extra times would have been a huge improvement for sure. Relating this back to the article, if you'd asked me at 24 what my opinion was about my social life, I would have said that it was fine. We just don't realize how much social interaction happens automatically at school and jobs in college towns. There's a bit of a residual where these friendships can carry on somewhat automatically for a few more years, then it takes effort to keep them going. Years later I looked back and realized that my deprioritization of socializing after graduation was a bad decision.
I think the problem with how things worked before is that prospects were a lot more limited for those who weren’t extraverted or capable of putting up a reasonably convincing facade of such....
I think the problem with how things worked before is that prospects were a lot more limited for those who weren’t extraverted or capable of putting up a reasonably convincing facade of such. Society made extraversion the default. There was also another tier above of “shiny” which yielded even greater dividends but felt utterly unattainable by many.
That gets exhausting, even for those of us who sit on the fence, like myself. I enjoy spending time with friends and in small groups can find that setting energizing, but that falls apart as the group grows and the number of people who I have any connection with shrinks. In that situation I can keep up basic politeness but it becomes increasingly tolling and interactions are unlikely to have any significance. So in short, for me to do well I need to be able to choose when I socialize.
From that angle, I think it’s a good thing that forced socialization has become less common, because when that happens someone almost always ends up feeling left out or uncomfortable. On the other hand, it’s bad that opportunity for socialization has dwindled, because that undermines the newfound ability to choose.
I have to go on some ridiculous corporate team building thing for three days shortly. Fall and we'll catch you kind of crap. My plan is to engage as little as possible and hit the hotel gym with...
I have to go on some ridiculous corporate team building thing for three days shortly. Fall and we'll catch you kind of crap.
My plan is to engage as little as possible and hit the hotel gym with my headphones on.
I had to go for a week once and even though I wanted to isolate, I did the opposite. I work remote, and so its the only time Ive ever been in the same room with my coworkers. I know it was...
I had to go for a week once and even though I wanted to isolate, I did the opposite.
I work remote, and so its the only time Ive ever been in the same room with my coworkers.
I know it was important for me to do that, and I know that I benefitted from it, even though at the end of the week I was totally drained and felt like I hated everyone and everyone hated me.
As a result there are people at my company who have my name on the tip of their tongue, because they met me, and so far that networking has helped my job go way more smoothly than it would have otherwise.
I was thankful that someone with your tenure was willing to meet me, it was my first month with a new remote job. A few people who had been there for years welcomed me, it was great
I was thankful that someone with your tenure was willing to meet me, it was my first month with a new remote job. A few people who had been there for years welcomed me, it was great
That is seriously grim. I would find a way to make myself sick to avoid the entire thing. Why do corporations try and push this bullshit? What concerns me even more is I think there are people who...
That is seriously grim. I would find a way to make myself sick to avoid the entire thing. Why do corporations try and push this bullshit? What concerns me even more is I think there are people who genuinely enjoy it.
I know feelings about Meyers Briggs are mixed, but reading this article as an INFJ, I think it aligns very well with that type. As for the super power side of it, if anyone is interested, check...
I know feelings about Meyers Briggs are mixed, but reading this article as an INFJ, I think it aligns very well with that type. As for the super power side of it, if anyone is interested, check out the "INFJ Epic Life" podcast. It helps people who feel the way this article describes embrace their "real" self, not feel weird or "like an alien," and see it as their "superpower". In one episode she even says "you are the blueprint" - you are meant to show others the way, even though you might actually feel the "odd one out". I dunno... it helped me. To each their own. I can't say whether Meyers Briggs is that good or bad, but at least for me, it was good insight and the podcast also helped expand on some ideas.
I've always found the concepts of introversion and extroversion to behave like MBTI or astrological signs in our discourse. People like to reflect on how the label matches their personalities and (for the real keeners) whether a deeper dive into moons and houses or hybrids/offshoots of Jung's terms for their personality more specifically.
I love it all, but it's also just hogwash. Lol. Based on our preferences for people, the environment and the context, we like certain individuals, certain groups and certain circumstances, and all of that depends on how we're feeling at the time.
I'm sure that everyone was recharged by a group, recharged alone or any combination of the two at some point in their life, so why the limiting labels? Because they help us understand complex topics. That's all. There's no need to declare which team you play for.
Never. Two other people tops. Any more is pretty draining.
Seconding this. Never ever felt recharged after hanging out in a group.
One or two people (and they have to be very specific people for me to actually recharge) is the max for me to actually feel like I'm charging instead of draining.
No kidding. Like, never ever? It's so unlike my own experience but I do have friends who feel similar.
Can't remember such a time.
Once there is a crowd, it's hard work to keep the common conversation going and healthy (giving time to everyone, picking inclusive topics, getting everyone up to speed and/or dumbing stuff down). So either I help do it, which is work, or shove it to someone else and feel bad afterwards.
And once you add new and/or distant people to the mix, it's automatic masking time.
I've been part of a group, and eventually the conversations stopped going anywhere. After the initial anxiety about being accepted, it became only rehashing old stuff. And when I got curious, most didn't get curious about same things, so back to masking to maintain the sense of cohesion.
I am slowly learning to tell people in their face how I feel with bare minimum niceties nowadays and pick off people one by one to chat with.
And learning to cope with rejection. Even when it's me doing the rejecting. Damn my stupid brain.
Yeah, I feel ya. That pretty much sums up conversation dynamics as a whole.
These are definitely the realities of it for me, too. I guess my glass half full approach to this is that I'll find somebody that I can A) learn something from, B) riff on a hike with or c) who I have something in common with (where we grew up, what school was like, etc.)
Typically, there's enough of what I mentioned above that I'm not forced to flee. That said, I'm often somebody who's at the party or event the longest, so perhaps I just have more of a hopeful/tolerant propensity than most.
Everybody's awkward in those situations. What keeps me going is the belief that there's an interesting person out there who's looking to cut the shit and get into it, and I'll keep looking while I'm still in attendance.
My last resort is to isolate an unknown person and just ask about what the person does (hobbies, work, whatever) and then just squeeze them dry for whatever they know about the topic. Like give me the juicy details. I always signal "you are valuable to society, be proud of yourself" for basically any kind of job and always try to relate positively to it. For hobbies it's simpler and I merely acknowledge that "our hobbies are what we life for after all".
Most people are genuinely surprised by actual legitimate interest. And I do drill on so they keep talking. Since this kind of conversation is not normal, many will actually have to think about their jobs in a kinda different light than usual and seem to enjoy it. And I get to learn stuff.
Yeah, I'm all about this. Honestly, it's a great starting point for most conversations with strangers, and if they're willing to throw the ball back to you and ask some questions, you've got a good party experience on your hands.
When I find somebody like this, I'll often try to leverage our experience toward another person by roping them in on whatever topic we're discussing, then, then do the same pass of the ball now that they're in on it.
Being a facilitator for fun is such an exciting project in social settings, and frankly, it's hard to stay focused on individual connections and not get carried away with trying to create group group experiences.
I'm the same. Even in a small group of friends I've known half my life, I have to take quiet breaks alone to manage my energy.
I love hanging out with a few of my neurodivergent friends. We can be active or just both sit on our phones showing memes to each other. The ability to just be present with people rather than having to perform socialization makes a huge difference for me as an introvert.
Alas, I usually find parallel play to be highly distracting. I've got a touch of misophonia and can't consistently tune out background noise.
No, I fully get that although this does not typically come with particular background noise other than just the presence of others
Same. Even if it's with close friends. Anymore than that and it gets draining. Even if it is fun and I'm enjoying myself.
In 2021, I went on a big group vacation. 14 of us went down to Orlando for a week. And we stayed in one vacation house. Almost everyone that went I'd known for at least 3-5yrs, mainly online (though some of us had met up briefly in person before this). Only a couple new faces. But it was still super draining. There were several times I just holed up in my room for a couple hours to recharge. Sit on my computer, play on my Switch, take a nap, etc. Or I'd go up to the other entertainment room and watch someone play a game, just the two of us.
And that might after going mini golfing or going out to lunch. Again, I enjoyed it, but I still needed some time to recharge.
But if it's just me and one or two other people talking? I can do that all night. I have done that all night, many times.
No. I am drained by social interaction to such a high degree that it is silly to think I am anything other than an introvert. That has always been the case.
That includes my dearest friends, my wife, and my son. I don't know about astrology, and I am unfamiliar with MBTI. Whatever the cause, introverts exist. Those who have difficulty with the concept are simply not introverts. They belong to the dominant group and the distinction does not bring them any benefit.
Furthermore, it is reductionist to ignore that "labels" can be both limiting and freeing in different ways.
Reductionist to ignore labels, but I'd argue it can also be self limiting to define yourself by them.
Know thyself, of course. But also, it's important that we all leave room to surprise ourselves of what we're capable of, too.
I'm not telling anybody who to be, but I do know that I appreciate being challenged and believe that others sometimes do, too.
I'll take a hike and go bark up another tree now lol.
I agree with you. It's nearly a form of cold reading, making general statements that are bound to resonate with a huge percentage of people.
Something I recently learned - some employers make job candidates take a personality test, and will exclude them from the process if they are specific types they are not looking for, as that means they may not be a "culture fit." This drives me absolutely nuts. I don't oppose having new employees take one of these tests after hiring to attempt to establish communication practices that will work best for everyone, but they should not be used as a candidate screener.
Oh, absolutely. Our institution using something called Clifton strengths which is a little more positive and collaborative in its approach. While it helps get conversation styles going, I feel like the moment you start relying too heavily on it, the navel gazing begins.
Well, I feel like that much of the time when people begin discussing 'how they are' to you.
If you've worked together long enough, you know how they are (or better yet, how you see them based on their behavior). Somebody nee explaining who they are is helpful, but also sometimes a half-cocked attempt at self awareness or a projection of who they think they are -- all to be taken with hefty salt.
“When a measure becomes a target, it ceased to be a useful measure”
(Oh god I just realised this is entirely how the tech industry works — every measure must become a target always and forever!)
If you’re using these things to get an idea of how to better relate to people, that’s useful and good. But as soon as it turns into “well if you’re not XYZ then we won’t hire you” then it immediately stops being useful in any way.
This Baggins gets it!!
Love the quote about the measure.
It's Goodhart's law. You might enjoy the article and discussion here:
https://tildes.net/~life/1bvz/how_to_drive_a_stake_through_your_own_good_heart
I appreciated that one for at least having a ton of strengths and a top five for each person. It felt less "here's your box" and more useful
Yeah, it's fine for what it is. Not sure if your secondary Ed institution encourages it as much as mine does, but it seems like whatever department I join, there's Strengths waiting for me.
Oh that was like, 8 years ago for us, now we're on Working Genius (because I assume that's what the current executive team/divisional leadership is on.)
I'm Discernment and Enablement. (Were mostly all enablement )
Maybe it'll make its way north one day. To date, I get to be a Woo, an "Individuator" and that pesky ENTJ, destroyer of worlds. So great!
My top three strengths out of five were Input, Learning and Intellection. Like... I collect information, learn things and then think about them.
I don't even remember the other 2 anymore. Lol
I'm very much not a WOO tho
I think I am INFP but I'm the MBTI hater so (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Yeah, samesies. That said, it doesn't stop me from sharing my top five, too!
Strategy, Communication, Individualization, Woo and one other. As for the ENTJ comment, I just ripped that off of an old WIRED article title. For all I know, I'm an Ascendant Extrovert on the seventh house Baratheon rising.
Only if Mercury is in Gatorade!
Introversion/extraversion is the only aspect of MBTI that is well supported by the science — although the way that MBTI characterizes it is highly misleading.
Introversion not an on/off thing. It's a normal distribution, where most people fall in the middle (neither particularly introverted nor extraverted). But there are some pretty fundamental brain differences between people who do fall at the far ends of the scale.
From memory it comes down to adrenaline sensitivity. I.e. If you are insensitive, you need a higher level of stimulation to get the same "hit" of adrenaline and so tend to be more extraverted.
This comment is going to meander a bit.
I reject the idea of introversion/extroversion (but I'll admit they are handy labels when you need to generalize). Still, I found the article interesting, and I strongly relate to the phenomenon it describes. Though I always attributed it to ADHD/whatever the hell else is going on in my noggin.
I remember when I first learned about masking and how my "extroversion" could be a coping mechanism that I use. Being outgoing as a means to deflect attention away from my flaws, which makes people like me more, which makes me mask more, which, in the end, results in relationships where everyone liked me, but the nature of masking meant that I wasn't really being vulnerable, and so the relationships just end up feeling superficial.
The idea of "otroversion" kind of brings that to mind. I do really enjoy deep conversations, and I enjoy hanging out with the groups of people. On the other hand, I despise the family gatherings at my in-laws, where conversation could be considered surface-level at best. Everyone seems bored, but it's like they want it to be boring. Like, the gathering is "just what you do" rather than trying to make it anything more.
I love solitude but I hate feeling lonely. Sometimes I feel loneliest when I'm with others. It's something that I can try to explain to those closest to me, but it's also something they never really understand. Trying to explain it usually makes me feel worse.
I like the idea of accepting this about myself. I've been trending that direction for a few years now, but it's tough. It makes me feel like an asshole sometimes. But maybe that's just my old masking habit kicking in, making me feel anxious because I'm worried the group won't like me if I don't act like the life of the party.
I say this with the intention of sympathy, and not an attempt to minimize your feelings: a lot of people feel this way, myself included.
If you're with a group you don't feel comfortable in, it is completely normal for that to result in loneliness, as you may begin questioning why you don't feel like you belong, and even engage in negative self-talk ("It must be my fault I don't fit in."). It is also normal to feel like you belong some days, and not so much other days.
Personal rant
One of my biggest struggles is that I will often push people away if they do or say something that I disagree with. If it was something big (racism, etc.), that would logical, but it's almost always something small that I could likely engage in conversation about to understand their perspective on. As you can imagine, this pushes me into loneliness.
Even though I have a partner, I am still in a situation where I don't have other people I spend time with regularly- I currently don't have any friend or hobby groups, and I do not have any coworkers that I communicate with. While my partner does everything for me that I want and need from a relationship, I still feel lonely because I am missing other connections.
I'm going to make a serious effort in the next handful of months to make new connections. I am going to step out of my comfort zone and jump into hobbies I've had interest in but very limited experience with. Maybe most of the people I meet in these groups will hate me for my lack of knowledge. But most likely, I will find some people to connect with, even if it just surface level circling around the hobby. And I need to accept that those types of relationships are completely fine, and I should not block them out just because I am looking for something deeper in the future.
And I say this with the intention of sympathy, and not an attempt to minimize your feelings: you may not be able to generalise from your own experience.
My related story: during my childs ADHD assessment I realised I probably needed an assessment too as I often had to ask the psychologist and the psychiatrist if this or that wasn't "normal".
So maybe, just maybe you are an otrovert too! (If it's even a thing!!)
Sure, but I was replying to someone who expressed frustration with being misunderstood, and I was attempting to make them feel heard and not alone.
Everyone has a unique story. No two people have an identical flow of thoughts, series of emotional responses, etc. Diagnoses have immense value in formulating a treatment plan. Self-defined labels are "riskier" in terms of accuracy, but many times they lead to support groups (even if they are informal) and help people feel heard. But support can extend beyond labels.
We are all human, and we should attempt to connect with others from a place of compassion. Some of us will have more points of understanding than others. Many people will disregard everything about a person if they can be identified as having a trait they look down on (which is especially apparent in today's political climate). This is why it is more important than ever to be kind when you can.
As an example, just because I am straight that does not mean I cannot be an LGBTQ+ ally. Just because I may not have the same set of experiences as others, does not mean I will stop connecting with others when I can. I will do my best to not offend, of course, but I would rather frustrate a couple people over letting my fear keep me from reaching out to someone who may truly need it or benefit from it.
While labeling personality traits into such terms as introverted and extroverted is in many ways flawed and reductive, and this third option introduced here with otroverted does seem like sort of a subset of the introverted trait, I must admit I personally found it a bit more fitting than the usual introverted stereotypes. Maybe it will resonate with others.
Agreed. I'm not sure if introversion, elsewhere in the world, has been taken to be as necessarily synonymous with awkwardness, anxiety, poor social skills, inferiority complexes, etc. as it seems to have become in the US... but maybe it will be useful to have a term to refer to and not have to clear up a bunch of assumptions about shyness and possible autism every time someone asks if I'm introverted. Hell, if anything, my otroversion is a product of arrogance - feeling like most others don't measure up, so why bother? (I'm a recovering misanthrope, don't hold it against me)
I felt that this article was really light on details about what makes this a "superpower". Sure, self-acceptance and independence are good, but far from "super".
If anything, we have the opposite problem. The article says:
It's not that encouraging socializing is counterproductive. It's starting to look like more of a problem, so it's getting more attention over time. To me, this just means that people are getting better and better at withdrawing from society, and I'm not sure the best move is to encourage it.
While I'm happy to see people being more in tune and honest with their feelings these days, it's also good to realize that your feelings are not always the most important thing. To me, maturity is realizing that sometimes your feelings should be secondary in importance while you do what is practical and beneficial for yourself and others. If you never accept invitations from friends, you'll eventually stop having friends. Some people feel ok with this, but if this is a widespread phenomenon, it might not be the healthiest thing in the long run for the individual and society overall. If it's the norm to isolate yourself, then you can't even be an occasional participant to a friend group, because there aren't enough friends groups anymore.
I myself am an introvert, and looking back at my life, I see detrimental effects from excessive social isolation at certain times in my past. It took a lot of work and therapy to get to a better state (not extremely social, but not extremely isolated either). I'm not saying that I'd become a social butterfly if I had a chance to do it all over again, but saying "yes" to invites just a few extra times would have been a huge improvement for sure. Relating this back to the article, if you'd asked me at 24 what my opinion was about my social life, I would have said that it was fine. We just don't realize how much social interaction happens automatically at school and jobs in college towns. There's a bit of a residual where these friendships can carry on somewhat automatically for a few more years, then it takes effort to keep them going. Years later I looked back and realized that my deprioritization of socializing after graduation was a bad decision.
I think the problem with how things worked before is that prospects were a lot more limited for those who weren’t extraverted or capable of putting up a reasonably convincing facade of such. Society made extraversion the default. There was also another tier above of “shiny” which yielded even greater dividends but felt utterly unattainable by many.
That gets exhausting, even for those of us who sit on the fence, like myself. I enjoy spending time with friends and in small groups can find that setting energizing, but that falls apart as the group grows and the number of people who I have any connection with shrinks. In that situation I can keep up basic politeness but it becomes increasingly tolling and interactions are unlikely to have any significance. So in short, for me to do well I need to be able to choose when I socialize.
From that angle, I think it’s a good thing that forced socialization has become less common, because when that happens someone almost always ends up feeling left out or uncomfortable. On the other hand, it’s bad that opportunity for socialization has dwindled, because that undermines the newfound ability to choose.
The point of the article is to sell the book.
I have to go on some ridiculous corporate team building thing for three days shortly. Fall and we'll catch you kind of crap.
My plan is to engage as little as possible and hit the hotel gym with my headphones on.
I had to go for a week once and even though I wanted to isolate, I did the opposite.
I work remote, and so its the only time Ive ever been in the same room with my coworkers.
I know it was important for me to do that, and I know that I benefitted from it, even though at the end of the week I was totally drained and felt like I hated everyone and everyone hated me.
As a result there are people at my company who have my name on the tip of their tongue, because they met me, and so far that networking has helped my job go way more smoothly than it would have otherwise.
I get that. But I’ve worked there for over thirty five years. I know everyone I need to, and they know me.
I was thankful that someone with your tenure was willing to meet me, it was my first month with a new remote job. A few people who had been there for years welcomed me, it was great
That is seriously grim. I would find a way to make myself sick to avoid the entire thing. Why do corporations try and push this bullshit? What concerns me even more is I think there are people who genuinely enjoy it.
I know feelings about Meyers Briggs are mixed, but reading this article as an INFJ, I think it aligns very well with that type. As for the super power side of it, if anyone is interested, check out the "INFJ Epic Life" podcast. It helps people who feel the way this article describes embrace their "real" self, not feel weird or "like an alien," and see it as their "superpower". In one episode she even says "you are the blueprint" - you are meant to show others the way, even though you might actually feel the "odd one out". I dunno... it helped me. To each their own. I can't say whether Meyers Briggs is that good or bad, but at least for me, it was good insight and the podcast also helped expand on some ideas.
I always scored infp and the article sounds like me too, but I forget what the acronyms mean and the proposed job titles never made sense to me either