The premise of this article is pretty hurtful. I'm not able to appreciate art because I like math? Computer science is beautiful to me; Our machines and the math behind them are reaching a level...
The premise of this article is pretty hurtful. I'm not able to appreciate art because I like math? Computer science is beautiful to me; Our machines and the math behind them are reaching a level of complexity on par with life itself, and I find that intensely thought-provoking and interesting on a daily basis. Not every tech person is a bitter asshole.
The (explicitly stated) base assumptions of the article are: Nobody likes coding, and anyone who claims otherwise is a liar Coders are inherently bad people Exposure to coders will damage a...
The (explicitly stated) base assumptions of the article are:
Nobody likes coding, and anyone who claims otherwise is a liar
Coders are inherently bad people
Exposure to coders will damage a previously good person
If that level of bullshit is the author's starting point, I honestly don't even feel as though there's value in addressing their points further.
Heh. I spent almost two decades at a software development firm as their 'pet' sysadmin. It was a fucking blast and I wouldn't have traded that job for anything. Delicious technical puzzles all day...
Exemplary
Heh. I spent almost two decades at a software development firm as their 'pet' sysadmin. It was a fucking blast and I wouldn't have traded that job for anything. Delicious technical puzzles all day long, and none of the 'my outlook is broken' or 'I can't turn the computer on' crap you get with regular desktop support - my users were almost all developers. If they came to me it was for a damn good reason. It was all tech, all day, with liberal amounts of beer at any restaurant in the city that had a decent outdoor deck/rooftop dining area. Several of us stayed after work once a week drinking wine and playing tabletop RPGs in the company conference room.
Most of the coders I worked with weren't hating their jobs. They loved it. Sure, some projects were asinine, some business decisions were asinine - that's how it goes anywhere. Some were also a lot of fun and did useful work. We'd sometimes hire new programmers and managers who were coming to us from cubicle farms and it'd take a month for them to finally decompress, relax, and become human beings again.
I can see this article's criticisms being leveled more at corporate culture than at IT - he seems to be conflating the two, as if all IT jobs take place on some low floor of a skyscraper and look like that scene from The Matrix where the agents show up to grab Neo. If you are a number in a box, working for a corporation that has less moral fiber than a sociopath (which is most of them) I can see getting burned out and becoming bitter like this. That's why I never took a job at a large corporation. Just the infrequent consulting I'd do for them while working my job was enough to turn me off to those environments. Cube farms strike me as a serious long-term mental health risk. :P
The article reads like a less-good version of a Maddox rant. It'd probably do very well in /r/darkenlightenment. I just see it and laugh a bit, because there are other ways to live your life as a STEM graduate. You don't have to sell your soul to the bank or to a corporation in order to work in those fields.
The art criticism is just... weird. I know rather a lot of people who work in STEM and almost without exception they are heavily into music (not minimalist techno), movies, television, art, and culture. It's not part of their 'day job' but art is something that everyone uses to add joy to life. Being in STEM doesn't make you any more or less likely to appreciate art, imo. Might make you more scifi-minded in your tastes though.
Hey, I like heavy music AND minimal techno, although these days I'm quite partial to a bit of dub techno. As an interesting aside, during the 90's most of my techno buddies came from the metal...
Hey, I like heavy music AND minimal techno, although these days I'm quite partial to a bit of dub techno. As an interesting aside, during the 90's most of my techno buddies came from the metal scene, because techno was so much heavier. And I've good reasons for my minimal music leanings - it helps me concentrate. When I'm 20 levels deep in the stack debugging some fucking mutant I need the minimal repetitive beat and soothing synth patterns to keep me on track, any major melodic complexity or lyrics will mess with my flow. When you're trying to keep so many things in your head at one time minimal music helps keep me in my zone. Besides, minimal music has complexity, just not in the traditional melodic sense. Anyway, that argument is for another time. The author of this article is clearly bitter that HE made all these mistakes and fucked up his life. I'm having a great time programming, I have great colleagues, we work on complex problems, of course there's maintenance and bug fixing and that, but that's all part of the job. The author seems to have thought that being a programmer would fix everything for him, and then neglected his life himself. To me this reads as someone who's bitter at the world for his own fuck up. He made programming his everything and he didn't become and instant billionaire.
As expected, making assumptions makes an ass out of the auther. I love writing code. I love creating art out of a beautifully designed system. I love using code to produce beautiful UIs, 3d...
As expected, making assumptions makes an ass out of the auther.
I love writing code. I love creating art out of a beautifully designed system. I love using code to produce beautiful UIs, 3d representations of data, and interactive 3d worlds created from someone's imagination.
I guess that makes me a bad person then. If so, I guess I'm Satan.
I agree but at the same time I have a hard time voting on this topic. If I could tag it I'd throw up a troll or inflamatory because the article seems to be fishing for people to come to STEM/IT...
I agree but at the same time I have a hard time voting on this topic. If I could tag it I'd throw up a troll or inflamatory because the article seems to be fishing for people to come to STEM/IT defence so it can then triumphantly point out the male fragility of the "computer jockey".
This article was not trash. Maybe I read it more satirically than it was meant to be, but though extreme there are some truths in there. And I personally do find a general disrespect STEMs have...
This article was not trash. Maybe I read it more satirically than it was meant to be, but though extreme there are some truths in there. And I personally do find a general disrespect STEMs have for arts that's mirrored in it.
I enjoyed reading it. Thanks for posting.
Edit: Upon rereading, this article is pretty obviously meant to be funny to me.
I've not personally experienced any aversion to "arts" in the IT field. I know I'm biased, but I have plenty of IT friends who are also writers, visual artists, musicians etc. Some of the most...
I've not personally experienced any aversion to "arts" in the IT field. I know I'm biased, but I have plenty of IT friends who are also writers, visual artists, musicians etc. Some of the most passionate/creative people I know work in technology.
Computer science is an inherently creative field; Yes, the core of computer science is math. but it's the innovative ways we abstract that math that give us new and useful things. Music is similar; At it's core, music is simply the distance between tones, but it's the abstractions of that core concept which produces beautiful compositions.
I'm in STEMs myself and don't at all disagree with you. I can be creative at work and in my leisure, in different ways. But I've also laughed at lots of jokes about baristas with art degrees....
I'm in STEMs myself and don't at all disagree with you. I can be creative at work and in my leisure, in different ways.
But I've also laughed at lots of jokes about baristas with art degrees. STEMs is regarded (true or not) as a form of stability, where arts have been stereotyped as a drive of passion, and in some cases where suffering is required to further the art itself.
For me, this article was just poking a bit of fun.
Art IS technology. Technology IS art. It's a common but false dichohonomy in our culture. But look at the root of the words. Art comes from the latin word for "skill" while technology comes from...
Art IS technology. Technology IS art. It's a common but false dichohonomy in our culture. But look at the root of the words.
Art comes from the latin word for "skill" while technology comes from the greek word for "the study of skill".
That's all art is. It's skillfulness. Something is Artful when it's skillful, well done, beautiful. Technology has been divorced in our minds from art because of the processes of the industrial revolution and capitalism. We now think of technology as a tool of industry, but this isn't really it's natural state.
This reminds me of an argument Feynman made in a documentary. He was talking about his artist friend and how he didn't think Feynman could appreciate flowers as much as he, the artist, could....
This reminds me of an argument Feynman made in a documentary. He was talking about his artist friend and how he didn't think Feynman could appreciate flowers as much as he, the artist, could. Feynman responded in basically the same way that you did, too.
That interview was the first thing that sprung to my mind after reading @JamesTeaKirk 's comment. The Feynman Series is also beautiful. Most of it is taken from that interview of Feynman about his...
Exemplary
That interview was the first thing that sprung to my mind after reading @JamesTeaKirk 's comment.
I have a friend who's an artist and he's some times taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say, "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree, I think. And he says, "you see, I as an artist can see how beautiful this is, but you as a scientist, oh, take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing." And I think he's kind of nutty.
First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me, too, I believe, although I might not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is. But I can appreciate the beauty of a flower.
At the same time, I see much more about the flower that he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside which also have a beauty. I mean, it's not just beauty at this dimension of one centimeter: there is also beauty at a smaller dimension, the inner structure... also the processes.
The fact that the colors in the flower are evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting - it means that insects can see the color.
It adds a question - does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms that are... why is it aesthetic, all kinds of interesting questions which a science knowledge only adds to the excitement and mystery and the awe of a flower.
It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.
The Feynman Series is also beautiful. Most of it is taken from that interview of Feynman about his book "The Pleasure of Finding Things Out".
Edit2. Later in that interview Feynman beautifully explained what his view of knowledge was all about.
I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing, I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don't know anything about. But I don't have to know an answer, I don't have- I don't feel frightened by not knowing things. By being lost in the mysterious universe without having any purpose - which is the way it really is as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn't frighten me.
Yes, exactly. The guy spends a lot of time discussing the effect of technology on the soul. To be honest, poverty is one of the most soul-crushing experiences most people are likely to be exposed to.
Yes, exactly. The guy spends a lot of time discussing the effect of technology on the soul. To be honest, poverty is one of the most soul-crushing experiences most people are likely to be exposed to.
When I tell non-software devs that I am a software dev but also a musician, artist, and read philosophy they lose their mind. When I tell other devs, no one gives a shit. People need to learn that...
When I tell non-software devs that I am a software dev but also a musician, artist, and read philosophy they lose their mind. When I tell other devs, no one gives a shit. People need to learn that IT has been normalized and the only time you'll meet a room full of the stereotypical "computer nerds" is in an undergrad CS classroom. When you get into the work force, you realize all types of people are coding these days.
I honestly think people who think like the author are damaging to the profession and bar people from wanting to pursue software/CS/IT/whatever as a career. The general public needs to see IT jobs for what they are: just another fucking job. After the .com boom, everyone got into the field and it's going to stay that way. Unless you are destined to work at the big 4 (I never understood the appeal), you will be interacting with normal, interesting, non-ultra-nerd people all day.
edit: after re-reading, I still can't tell if this is supposed to be satire or not. I know people who think of IT / STEM in general this way.
The extreme prevelence of the "STEMbro" on the internet is worth keeping in mind. While I don't want to fully defend the original post, it at least mostly seems like it's trying to combat the...
The extreme prevelence of the "STEMbro" on the internet is worth keeping in mind. While I don't want to fully defend the original post, it at least mostly seems like it's trying to combat the overwhelmingly common narrative on places like Reddit where the smart thing to do with your life is to get into a STEM field, land somewhere between "apolitical" and right-libertarian, and look down on people who put their lives into anything else. I don't doubt that there's a lot of different people in the field just like any other, but if you're a kid finishing up high school and everywhere you look there's just nerds screaming about how anything you actually want to do is just an overly idealistic waste of life...it doesn't matter that there are some quiet people who don't agree.
I get why a response like yours would be made, because the author flips between attacking what I'm talking about and just straight-up attacking people who work in STEM / with computers, but I don't think it makes that point any less relevant. The whole thing reads to me as excessively over-the-top for comedic effect, but still sincere to a certain degree. Maybe poking fun at themselves?
Yeah, I'm going to be optimistic in that the goal may be to reduce the stembro mentality to absurdity. If that's the case, I 100% agree with the goal of the post. It sucks to see people have such...
Yeah, I'm going to be optimistic in that the goal may be to reduce the stembro mentality to absurdity. If that's the case, I 100% agree with the goal of the post. It sucks to see people have such a ridiculous/archaic view of a profession, especially when it is really only coming from a vocal minority of undergrad dudes on the internet who want to gatekeep.
I guess I should really listen to my own rantings because I've never worked for those sorts of companies and would have no idea what the cultures are like! I think I'm (incorrectly) basing that...
I guess I should really listen to my own rantings because I've never worked for those sorts of companies and would have no idea what the cultures are like! I think I'm (incorrectly) basing that off of the fact that all those ultra-nerds I knew in undergrad were obsessed with getting into those sorts of jobs.
It's nice to see the other side of the coin for once. I'm kind of sick to death of being lectured to by brogrammers and techno libertarian types that denigrate and ridicule anything that isn't...
It's nice to see the other side of the coin for once.
I'm kind of sick to death of being lectured to by brogrammers and techno libertarian types that denigrate and ridicule anything that isn't tech, coding or "engineering" related.
I've even seen people on Tildes state, as fact, that nobody needs to study or learn about art or humanities because there's "no research done in those things" and all you need to do is go read a book in a library.
Judging from some of the reactions in this thread, people find the views expressed in this piece offensive, so hopefully those who view humanities etc as lesser will learn how it feels to be told the things the love and study and earn a living from are worthless and unnecessary.
Maybe. I haven't come across any real people like that personally, but I know they exist. But the problem with this kind of arguement (from either) is that it is extremely disrespectful and...
Maybe. I haven't come across any real people like that personally, but I know they exist. But the problem with this kind of arguement (from either) is that it is extremely disrespectful and demonstrates a lack of effort to attempt to understand where the other side is coming from. There is no point to writing this kind of diatribe except specifically to insult someone.
I was genuinely hoping for an interesting teardown of tech as a field, and a perspective different to my own. I, too, wanted to see the other side of the coin! Instead it called me a liar, said I...
I was genuinely hoping for an interesting teardown of tech as a field, and a perspective different to my own. I, too, wanted to see the other side of the coin!
Instead it called me a liar, said I have a faulty brain, and told me that my interest and passion is false. I was expecting the field to be challenged, but that level of unfounded personal insult definitely left a bad taste.
I've also had people strongly criticise me when I say I don't want to learn how to use a particular program or don't want to learn how to write code. They seemed to take it as a combination of...
I'm kind of sick to death of being lectured to by brogrammers and techno libertarian types that denigrate and ridicule anything that isn't tech, coding or "engineering" related.
I've also had people strongly criticise me when I say I don't want to learn how to use a particular program or don't want to learn how to write code. They seemed to take it as a combination of personal insult to them and an admission of total moronity on my part (which is ironic considering my background...).
I've even seen people on Tildes state, as fact, that nobody needs to study or learn about art or humanities because there's "no research done in those things" and all you need to do is go read a book in a library.
Judging from some of the reactions in this thread, people find the views expressed in this piece offensive, so hopefully those who view humanities etc as lesser will learn how it feels to be told the things the love and study and earn a living from are worthless and unnecessary.
That said, this article wasn't the best way to approach this. It was a tad simplistic and did play a lot to stereotypes: "all coders have machine-brains themselves and don't know how to think creatively". I've met a few coders in my time, and they vary just as much as realany other people. I think this article is about the writer's own personal experiences, rather than about coding in general - although it does have some useful talking points.
You've met the coder's arrogance, a very annoying expression of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Because they're trained in a very particular application of logic, some programmers believe they have...
You've met the coder's arrogance, a very annoying expression of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Because they're trained in a very particular application of logic, some programmers believe they have mastered the inner logic of reality itself. "No man, the fact that you can write an extension to the kernel doesn't make you the master of everything. Can you write a poem like Walt Whitman? Can you play the guitar like Eric Clapton? Can you write the Critique of Pure Reason? No? Then fuck off!" :D
They also seem to be under the impression that there's no logic outside of programming, while Aristotle's Prior Analytics was written in 350 B.C.E. Quite a bit before the first computer! That's the probable reason for statements such as "everyone should learn to programme". No! Of course not! Everyone should know logic! Programming is just an application of it.
I used to work with coders, as a Business Analyst. I've even had a couple of coders as friends over the years. I'm aware of the phenomenon! ;) I was mostly surprised at the virulence with which...
You've met the coder's arrogance
I used to work with coders, as a Business Analyst. I've even had a couple of coders as friends over the years. I'm aware of the phenomenon! ;)
I was mostly surprised at the virulence with which the viewpoint was expressed here on Tildes and the anger directed at me, rather than the viewpoint itself.
I'm kind of a coder (I wonder when I'll feel comfortable identifying as one...), and I hate this kind of thinking. But I'm pretty sure having a humanities background is part of the reason for...
I'm kind of a coder (I wonder when I'll feel comfortable identifying as one...), and I hate this kind of thinking. But I'm pretty sure having a humanities background is part of the reason for that. That makes me think that STEM people could benefit from a few humanities credits. Especially rhetoric and philosophical logic (both formal and informal).
Everyone else's comments pretty much get at my thoughts, except one: I can tell this author hasn't studied English lit, or else they'd be aware that there is only one Brontë sister that isn't...
Everyone else's comments pretty much get at my thoughts, except one:
You can study English and fall in love with one of the Brontë sisters.
I can tell this author hasn't studied English lit, or else they'd be aware that there is only one Brontë sister that isn't absolutely insufferable, and she sure as shit didn't write Wuthering Heights or Jane Eyre.
Your poverty is a crown you should wear with pride.
wait no i'm not done how do I make the eyeroll emoji on my work computer
The author seems to think that I would be happier working multiple full-time minimum wage jobs pouring coffee and spending all my free time reading philosophy. I already have I one job making...
The author seems to think that I would be happier working multiple full-time minimum wage jobs pouring coffee and spending all my free time reading philosophy. I already have I one job making little above minimum wage outside of STEM, and I hate it. It's one of my biggest motivations for pursuing my degree. Don't get me wrong, I understand that many people have had horrible experiences with STEM. Feel free to fee live your life however you want, I won't judge you. However, I can't sympathize with sometime telling me that my desires and values and strengths and weaknesses are objectively incorrect. The insults and name-calling and perpetuation of negative stereotypes don't help either.
I can't tell if this is satire. I'm not sure if that makes it awful satire or phenomenal satire... or if it's actually satirical at all. That's about how far I got before I thought maybe I wasn't...
I can't tell if this is satire. I'm not sure if that makes it awful satire or phenomenal satire... or if it's actually satirical at all.
You have to be stunted in other ways, to become a good computer jockey.
That's about how far I got before I thought maybe I wasn't getting it. I like to think I'm not particularly stunted as a person. Maybe I'm not a good computer jockey though. /shrug
I think that the underlying sentiment as you outlined here is very valuable - people don't have to go into STEM to be successful. We need a lot of other people in our society, and we need to start...
I think that the underlying sentiment as you outlined here is very valuable - people don't have to go into STEM to be successful. We need a lot of other people in our society, and we need to start valuing those things differently, and in many cases more than we currently do and I think people should pursue the things that they want to pursue, generally, to the best of their abilities.
Most of this article is pretty over-the-top and I think that one can make the underlying points without saying things that are offputting and adversarial, but as noted... it may be satirical.
I got up to that same line and scrolled to the bottom of the page to see citations and when I saw none I concluded this was some moron who failed CS and wanted to rant about how everyone who...
I got up to that same line and scrolled to the bottom of the page to see citations and when I saw none I concluded this was some moron who failed CS and wanted to rant about how everyone who passed is mentally disabled.
Hurtful drivel (though it sounds like satire. One can hope). I am a computer geek and programmer, and I find it fun. Somehow that makes me a bad person? And, for non-believers, there's a ton of...
Hurtful drivel (though it sounds like satire. One can hope).
I am a computer geek and programmer, and I find it fun. Somehow that makes me a bad person? And, for non-believers, there's a ton of creativity in coding, not to mention designing the front-end UX. But even if there wasn't, so what? People are different. Get over it.
Though if you don't like it, don't do it. I don't particularly care. I enjoy and respect the humanities.
Seriously, this bit right here is so over the top that it almost has to be satire. There can be all sorts of constraints or problems that force you to twist your brain into weird ways and learn...
Seriously, this bit right here is so over the top that it almost has to be satire.
Computer jockeys my dear reader, are stunted people. The computer jockey listens to repetitive techno music he refers to as “minimal”. It soothes him as he writes the stories that tell the computer what to do. The computer jockey has no great ground-breaking thoughts. He’s a simple man, with simple ideas. He is dogmatic. Computers deal with rigid absolute truths, so he too has learned to see the world in the form of rigid absolute truths.
There can be all sorts of constraints or problems that force you to twist your brain into weird ways and learn new things. I don't do any sort of professional coding but I enjoy writing music visualizers. Either in Blender with Python and/or the Animation Nodes addon or for real-life LEDs with just plain Python. There's a tiny amount of essentially boilerplate/setup code but the vast majority of the time is spent thinking up ways you can translate sound waves into recognizable flashing lights, and that's great fun and takes honestly more creativity than I have, but that's part of the fun, too.
I feel like this could have been written in the 90's when people were just starting to understand technology. Maybe that's because India is currently in a tech boom similar to the Dot Com era that...
I feel like this could have been written in the 90's when people were just starting to understand technology. Maybe that's because India is currently in a tech boom similar to the Dot Com era that occurred in much of the first world countries in the late 90's/early 00's and the author is just projecting his discomfort with the change as well as personal issues related to it. India used to be the place to outsource low level IT functions but is now developing into a leader in technology. He might feel left behind by his peers or perhaps is having trouble finding jobs in non-IT fields. He is also talking like IT is all that there is to STEM which is completely not true and there are many creative and/or fulfilling jobs in STEM that have nothing to do with IT or software development.
It's idealistic, but I don't think that you can read this blog post like it's an editorial or news. It's a clever luddyte's tyraid that on the surface, is a tear into people who pursue careers in...
It's idealistic, but I don't think that you can read this blog post like it's an editorial or news.
It's a clever luddyte's tyraid that on the surface, is a tear into people who pursue careers in tech, but in reality, has more in common with the Jonathan Swift letter about eating babies. It's meant to convey insight figuratively, and through the virtue signalling of poverty.
The irony is that unless you're trained to recognize those things (ie: by pursuing an English education), you'll read it as a literal attack on 'The Digital Man'.
I think you're giving the author too much credit. I think it's serious. It's only redeeming quality is the extensive use of the term "computer jockey" which I personally just adore.
I think you're giving the author too much credit. I think it's serious. It's only redeeming quality is the extensive use of the term "computer jockey" which I personally just adore.
The comparison to A Modest Proposal is apt. I think this may be a case of Poe's Law where everyone is taking it too seriously. It seems sincere but makes such bold claims. The website also has a...
The comparison to A Modest Proposal is apt. I think this may be a case of Poe's Law where everyone is taking it too seriously. It seems sincere but makes such bold claims.
The website also has a tab called 'Shitpost Central.' Inclines me to believe the author is aware of what they're doing.
This article while extremely intellectually dishonest is interesting to dissect not because of any Capital T truth it provides, but as examination of the backlash that is coming to the tech world,...
This article while extremely intellectually dishonest is interesting to dissect not because of any Capital T truth it provides, but as examination of the backlash that is coming to the tech world, that a lot of people in Silicon Valley are unprepared for.
Also of note is the large amount responses this has received for opinion piece that is nothing but inflammatory drivel. People are aware on some level that the Tech sector is falling out of favor. And seem to be trying to defend it. (As a reminder, Tildes is powered by engagement, if you don't agree w/ a post, don't engage, (we don't have the sage option yet)
Programming sucks if you compare it with some idealized notion of how programming should be. Programming doesn't suck if you compare it to other professions, which also have a whole set of reasons...
Programming sucks if you compare it with some idealized notion of how programming should be.
Programming doesn't suck if you compare it to other professions, which also have a whole set of reasons to suck.
I think there are some bruised egos and a certain amount of horror at the thought that maybe not everyone is in thrall to tech and the people associated with it.
I think there are some bruised egos and a certain amount of horror at the thought that maybe not everyone is in thrall to tech and the people associated with it.
The "article" is a list of reasons why people who work in tech are "stunted" mindless robotic assholes. You didn't expect people to come defend themselves? I'm still lost as to what point the...
The "article" is a list of reasons why people who work in tech are "stunted" mindless robotic assholes. You didn't expect people to come defend themselves? I'm still lost as to what point the article is trying to push, whether or not it's satire.
I find it pretty funny, too, but the problem that I had with it is that it's just too real for me. I couldn't tell if he thought these things and was angry-to-the-point-of-insanity, or if he was...
I find it pretty funny, too, but the problem that I had with it is that it's just too real for me. I couldn't tell if he thought these things and was angry-to-the-point-of-insanity, or if he was just being satirical.
The article wasn't the best written and I can see how at parts it reads a bit too intense. Still, especially the last paragraph, I think it really was meant to be funny.
The article wasn't the best written and I can see how at parts it reads a bit too intense. Still, especially the last paragraph, I think it really was meant to be funny.
As someone with a technical job, I find I have way more outlet for creativity and expression than most of my friends in non-technical fields. Everybody has to make a living and I actually enjoy...
As someone with a technical job, I find I have way more outlet for creativity and expression than most of my friends in non-technical fields. Everybody has to make a living and I actually enjoy what I do (which does involve some coding) whereas my non-technical friends often end up in soul-crushing retail or service jobs with duties much more narrow and robotic than I have to deal with. Anyone who thinks technical jobs are simple and deterministic number crunching is pretty uninformed. They will be among the last to be replaced by digital automatons since they are not simple nor highly repetitive in nature.
Having money from a technical job also means I can enjoy experiences and art outside of work much less constrained by a tight budget. I don't have less time and energy to read literature than a barista but I sure have more resources to try new foods and experiences and travel to interesting places around the world than someone barely making rent.
As much as I appreciate all the passionate arguments you people have made, I'm not sure this article was meant to be taken seriously. It looks like satire to me.
As much as I appreciate all the passionate arguments you people have made, I'm not sure this article was meant to be taken seriously. It looks like satire to me.
I have to believe that it is, in fact, satire, because the alternative would be to assume awful things about the author. Unfortunately, it is so far over into Poe's Law territory that the apparent...
I have to believe that it is, in fact, satire, because the alternative would be to assume awful things about the author.
Unfortunately, it is so far over into Poe's Law territory that the apparent vitriol and spite largely obscures the actual points they're trying to make. I'm not sure who the intended audience is, unless it's some set of people who already deeply dislike or resent IT professionals.
The premise of this article is pretty hurtful. I'm not able to appreciate art because I like math? Computer science is beautiful to me; Our machines and the math behind them are reaching a level of complexity on par with life itself, and I find that intensely thought-provoking and interesting on a daily basis. Not every tech person is a bitter asshole.
The (explicitly stated) base assumptions of the article are:
If that level of bullshit is the author's starting point, I honestly don't even feel as though there's value in addressing their points further.
Heh. I spent almost two decades at a software development firm as their 'pet' sysadmin. It was a fucking blast and I wouldn't have traded that job for anything. Delicious technical puzzles all day long, and none of the 'my outlook is broken' or 'I can't turn the computer on' crap you get with regular desktop support - my users were almost all developers. If they came to me it was for a damn good reason. It was all tech, all day, with liberal amounts of beer at any restaurant in the city that had a decent outdoor deck/rooftop dining area. Several of us stayed after work once a week drinking wine and playing tabletop RPGs in the company conference room.
Most of the coders I worked with weren't hating their jobs. They loved it. Sure, some projects were asinine, some business decisions were asinine - that's how it goes anywhere. Some were also a lot of fun and did useful work. We'd sometimes hire new programmers and managers who were coming to us from cubicle farms and it'd take a month for them to finally decompress, relax, and become human beings again.
I can see this article's criticisms being leveled more at corporate culture than at IT - he seems to be conflating the two, as if all IT jobs take place on some low floor of a skyscraper and look like that scene from The Matrix where the agents show up to grab Neo. If you are a number in a box, working for a corporation that has less moral fiber than a sociopath (which is most of them) I can see getting burned out and becoming bitter like this. That's why I never took a job at a large corporation. Just the infrequent consulting I'd do for them while working my job was enough to turn me off to those environments. Cube farms strike me as a serious long-term mental health risk. :P
The article reads like a less-good version of a Maddox rant. It'd probably do very well in /r/darkenlightenment. I just see it and laugh a bit, because there are other ways to live your life as a STEM graduate. You don't have to sell your soul to the bank or to a corporation in order to work in those fields.
The art criticism is just... weird. I know rather a lot of people who work in STEM and almost without exception they are heavily into music (not minimalist techno), movies, television, art, and culture. It's not part of their 'day job' but art is something that everyone uses to add joy to life. Being in STEM doesn't make you any more or less likely to appreciate art, imo. Might make you more scifi-minded in your tastes though.
Here's a little taste of just some of the shit we got up to that I wrote for an old post in /r/sysadmin. None of that is made up or even exaggerated.
Hey, I like heavy music AND minimal techno, although these days I'm quite partial to a bit of dub techno. As an interesting aside, during the 90's most of my techno buddies came from the metal scene, because techno was so much heavier. And I've good reasons for my minimal music leanings - it helps me concentrate. When I'm 20 levels deep in the stack debugging some fucking mutant I need the minimal repetitive beat and soothing synth patterns to keep me on track, any major melodic complexity or lyrics will mess with my flow. When you're trying to keep so many things in your head at one time minimal music helps keep me in my zone. Besides, minimal music has complexity, just not in the traditional melodic sense. Anyway, that argument is for another time. The author of this article is clearly bitter that HE made all these mistakes and fucked up his life. I'm having a great time programming, I have great colleagues, we work on complex problems, of course there's maintenance and bug fixing and that, but that's all part of the job. The author seems to have thought that being a programmer would fix everything for him, and then neglected his life himself. To me this reads as someone who's bitter at the world for his own fuck up. He made programming his everything and he didn't become and instant billionaire.
It's like saying that no one should be an author because no one really likes typing.
As expected, making assumptions makes an ass out of the auther.
I love writing code. I love creating art out of a beautifully designed system. I love using code to produce beautiful UIs, 3d representations of data, and interactive 3d worlds created from someone's imagination.
I guess that makes me a bad person then. If so, I guess I'm Satan.
I agree but at the same time I have a hard time voting on this topic. If I could tag it I'd throw up a
trollorinflamatorybecause the article seems to be fishing for people to come to STEM/IT defence so it can then triumphantly point out the male fragility of the "computer jockey".This article was not trash. Maybe I read it more satirically than it was meant to be, but though extreme there are some truths in there. And I personally do find a general disrespect STEMs have for arts that's mirrored in it.
I enjoyed reading it. Thanks for posting.
Edit: Upon rereading, this article is pretty obviously meant to be funny to me.
I've not personally experienced any aversion to "arts" in the IT field. I know I'm biased, but I have plenty of IT friends who are also writers, visual artists, musicians etc. Some of the most passionate/creative people I know work in technology.
Computer science is an inherently creative field; Yes, the core of computer science is math. but it's the innovative ways we abstract that math that give us new and useful things. Music is similar; At it's core, music is simply the distance between tones, but it's the abstractions of that core concept which produces beautiful compositions.
I'm in STEMs myself and don't at all disagree with you. I can be creative at work and in my leisure, in different ways.
But I've also laughed at lots of jokes about baristas with art degrees. STEMs is regarded (true or not) as a form of stability, where arts have been stereotyped as a drive of passion, and in some cases where suffering is required to further the art itself.
For me, this article was just poking a bit of fun.
Art IS technology. Technology IS art. It's a common but false dichohonomy in our culture. But look at the root of the words.
Art comes from the latin word for "skill" while technology comes from the greek word for "the study of skill".
That's all art is. It's skillfulness. Something is Artful when it's skillful, well done, beautiful. Technology has been divorced in our minds from art because of the processes of the industrial revolution and capitalism. We now think of technology as a tool of industry, but this isn't really it's natural state.
Just ask a pure math PhD about what they do... if you can understand (or appreciate their passion in case you don't): it's beautiful, man!
This reminds me of an argument Feynman made in a documentary. He was talking about his artist friend and how he didn't think Feynman could appreciate flowers as much as he, the artist, could. Feynman responded in basically the same way that you did, too.
That interview was the first thing that sprung to my mind after reading @JamesTeaKirk 's comment.
The Feynman Series is also beautiful. Most of it is taken from that interview of Feynman about his book "The Pleasure of Finding Things Out".
Edit2. Later in that interview Feynman beautifully explained what his view of knowledge was all about.
The author also encourages people to live in poverty like it's a badge of pride. I would not call scraping to find food day to day a badge of pride...
Yes, exactly. The guy spends a lot of time discussing the effect of technology on the soul. To be honest, poverty is one of the most soul-crushing experiences most people are likely to be exposed to.
When I tell non-software devs that I am a software dev but also a musician, artist, and read philosophy they lose their mind. When I tell other devs, no one gives a shit. People need to learn that IT has been normalized and the only time you'll meet a room full of the stereotypical "computer nerds" is in an undergrad CS classroom. When you get into the work force, you realize all types of people are coding these days.
I honestly think people who think like the author are damaging to the profession and bar people from wanting to pursue software/CS/IT/whatever as a career. The general public needs to see IT jobs for what they are: just another fucking job. After the .com boom, everyone got into the field and it's going to stay that way. Unless you are destined to work at the big 4 (I never understood the appeal), you will be interacting with normal, interesting, non-ultra-nerd people all day.
edit: after re-reading, I still can't tell if this is supposed to be satire or not. I know people who think of IT / STEM in general this way.
The extreme prevelence of the "STEMbro" on the internet is worth keeping in mind. While I don't want to fully defend the original post, it at least mostly seems like it's trying to combat the overwhelmingly common narrative on places like Reddit where the smart thing to do with your life is to get into a STEM field, land somewhere between "apolitical" and right-libertarian, and look down on people who put their lives into anything else. I don't doubt that there's a lot of different people in the field just like any other, but if you're a kid finishing up high school and everywhere you look there's just nerds screaming about how anything you actually want to do is just an overly idealistic waste of life...it doesn't matter that there are some quiet people who don't agree.
I get why a response like yours would be made, because the author flips between attacking what I'm talking about and just straight-up attacking people who work in STEM / with computers, but I don't think it makes that point any less relevant. The whole thing reads to me as excessively over-the-top for comedic effect, but still sincere to a certain degree. Maybe poking fun at themselves?
Yeah, I'm going to be optimistic in that the goal may be to reduce the stembro mentality to absurdity. If that's the case, I 100% agree with the goal of the post. It sucks to see people have such a ridiculous/archaic view of a profession, especially when it is really only coming from a vocal minority of undergrad dudes on the internet who want to gatekeep.
I think you underestimate how normal, interesting, and non-ultra-nerd the people who work at the big 4 are :)
I guess I should really listen to my own rantings because I've never worked for those sorts of companies and would have no idea what the cultures are like! I think I'm (incorrectly) basing that off of the fact that all those ultra-nerds I knew in undergrad were obsessed with getting into those sorts of jobs.
It's nice to see the other side of the coin for once.
I'm kind of sick to death of being lectured to by brogrammers and techno libertarian types that denigrate and ridicule anything that isn't tech, coding or "engineering" related.
I've even seen people on Tildes state, as fact, that nobody needs to study or learn about art or humanities because there's "no research done in those things" and all you need to do is go read a book in a library.
Judging from some of the reactions in this thread, people find the views expressed in this piece offensive, so hopefully those who view humanities etc as lesser will learn how it feels to be told the things the love and study and earn a living from are worthless and unnecessary.
Maybe. I haven't come across any real people like that personally, but I know they exist. But the problem with this kind of arguement (from either) is that it is extremely disrespectful and demonstrates a lack of effort to attempt to understand where the other side is coming from. There is no point to writing this kind of diatribe except specifically to insult someone.
I was genuinely hoping for an interesting teardown of tech as a field, and a perspective different to my own. I, too, wanted to see the other side of the coin!
Instead it called me a liar, said I have a faulty brain, and told me that my interest and passion is false. I was expecting the field to be challenged, but that level of unfounded personal insult definitely left a bad taste.
I've also had people strongly criticise me when I say I don't want to learn how to use a particular program or don't want to learn how to write code. They seemed to take it as a combination of personal insult to them and an admission of total moronity on my part (which is ironic considering my background...).
Yes. I did not like that statement at all!
That said, this article wasn't the best way to approach this. It was a tad simplistic and did play a lot to stereotypes: "all coders have machine-brains themselves and don't know how to think creatively". I've met a few coders in my time, and they vary just as much as
realany other people. I think this article is about the writer's own personal experiences, rather than about coding in general - although it does have some useful talking points.You've met the coder's arrogance, a very annoying expression of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Because they're trained in a very particular application of logic, some programmers believe they have mastered the inner logic of reality itself. "No man, the fact that you can write an extension to the kernel doesn't make you the master of everything. Can you write a poem like Walt Whitman? Can you play the guitar like Eric Clapton? Can you write the Critique of Pure Reason? No? Then fuck off!" :D
They also seem to be under the impression that there's no logic outside of programming, while Aristotle's Prior Analytics was written in 350 B.C.E. Quite a bit before the first computer! That's the probable reason for statements such as "everyone should learn to programme". No! Of course not! Everyone should know logic! Programming is just an application of it.
I used to work with coders, as a Business Analyst. I've even had a couple of coders as friends over the years. I'm aware of the phenomenon! ;)
I was mostly surprised at the virulence with which the viewpoint was expressed here on Tildes and the anger directed at me, rather than the viewpoint itself.
I'm kind of a coder (I wonder when I'll feel comfortable identifying as one...), and I hate this kind of thinking. But I'm pretty sure having a humanities background is part of the reason for that. That makes me think that STEM people could benefit from a few humanities credits. Especially rhetoric and philosophical logic (both formal and informal).
If in humanities
then in programming all you need to do is go read StackOverflow. And the latter is not really more diverse
Everyone else's comments pretty much get at my thoughts, except one:
I can tell this author hasn't studied English lit, or else they'd be aware that there is only one Brontë sister that isn't absolutely insufferable, and she sure as shit didn't write Wuthering Heights or Jane Eyre.
wait no i'm not done how do I make the eyeroll emoji on my work computer
If you're on windows you can just hit the windows key + the ; and it will pop up an emoji box for you. 😎
The author seems to think that I would be happier working multiple full-time minimum wage jobs pouring coffee and spending all my free time reading philosophy. I already have I one job making little above minimum wage outside of STEM, and I hate it. It's one of my biggest motivations for pursuing my degree. Don't get me wrong, I understand that many people have had horrible experiences with STEM. Feel free to fee live your life however you want, I won't judge you. However, I can't sympathize with sometime telling me that my desires and values and strengths and weaknesses are objectively incorrect. The insults and name-calling and perpetuation of negative stereotypes don't help either.
I can't tell if this is satire. I'm not sure if that makes it awful satire or phenomenal satire... or if it's actually satirical at all.
That's about how far I got before I thought maybe I wasn't getting it. I like to think I'm not particularly stunted as a person. Maybe I'm not a good computer jockey though. /shrug
I think that the underlying sentiment as you outlined here is very valuable - people don't have to go into STEM to be successful. We need a lot of other people in our society, and we need to start valuing those things differently, and in many cases more than we currently do and I think people should pursue the things that they want to pursue, generally, to the best of their abilities.
Most of this article is pretty over-the-top and I think that one can make the underlying points without saying things that are offputting and adversarial, but as noted... it may be satirical.
I got up to that same line and scrolled to the bottom of the page to see citations and when I saw none I concluded this was some moron who failed CS and wanted to rant about how everyone who passed is mentally disabled.
I think it's satire
Hurtful drivel (though it sounds like satire. One can hope).
I am a computer geek and programmer, and I find it fun. Somehow that makes me a bad person? And, for non-believers, there's a ton of creativity in coding, not to mention designing the front-end UX. But even if there wasn't, so what? People are different. Get over it.
Though if you don't like it, don't do it. I don't particularly care. I enjoy and respect the humanities.
Seriously, this bit right here is so over the top that it almost has to be satire.
There can be all sorts of constraints or problems that force you to twist your brain into weird ways and learn new things. I don't do any sort of professional coding but I enjoy writing music visualizers. Either in Blender with Python and/or the Animation Nodes addon or for real-life LEDs with just plain Python. There's a tiny amount of essentially boilerplate/setup code but the vast majority of the time is spent thinking up ways you can translate sound waves into recognizable flashing lights, and that's great fun and takes honestly more creativity than I have, but that's part of the fun, too.
I feel like this could have been written in the 90's when people were just starting to understand technology. Maybe that's because India is currently in a tech boom similar to the Dot Com era that occurred in much of the first world countries in the late 90's/early 00's and the author is just projecting his discomfort with the change as well as personal issues related to it. India used to be the place to outsource low level IT functions but is now developing into a leader in technology. He might feel left behind by his peers or perhaps is having trouble finding jobs in non-IT fields. He is also talking like IT is all that there is to STEM which is completely not true and there are many creative and/or fulfilling jobs in STEM that have nothing to do with IT or software development.
It's idealistic, but I don't think that you can read this blog post like it's an editorial or news.
It's a clever luddyte's tyraid that on the surface, is a tear into people who pursue careers in tech, but in reality, has more in common with the Jonathan Swift letter about eating babies. It's meant to convey insight figuratively, and through the virtue signalling of poverty.
The irony is that unless you're trained to recognize those things (ie: by pursuing an English education), you'll read it as a literal attack on 'The Digital Man'.
I was confused as to the author's intention through the entire article, and I still am.
I think you're giving the author too much credit. I think it's serious. It's only redeeming quality is the extensive use of the term "computer jockey" which I personally just adore.
The comparison to A Modest Proposal is apt. I think this may be a case of Poe's Law where everyone is taking it too seriously. It seems sincere but makes such bold claims.
The website also has a tab called 'Shitpost Central.' Inclines me to believe the author is aware of what they're doing.
What insight do you believe it's intended to convey?
Just FYI: it's a clever "Luddite's tirade".
This article while extremely intellectually dishonest is interesting to dissect not because of any Capital T truth it provides, but as examination of the backlash that is coming to the tech world, that a lot of people in Silicon Valley are unprepared for.
Also of note is the large amount responses this has received for opinion piece that is nothing but inflammatory drivel. People are aware on some level that the Tech sector is falling out of favor. And seem to be trying to defend it. (As a reminder, Tildes is powered by engagement, if you don't agree w/ a post, don't engage, (we don't have the sage option yet)
Regardless of the merits of this article, programming still sucks.
I agree. It probably sucks the normal amount. Which is a lot, usually.
I actually found this pretty funny. A little surprised by the comments here.
I think there are some bruised egos and a certain amount of horror at the thought that maybe not everyone is in thrall to tech and the people associated with it.
The "article" is a list of reasons why people who work in tech are "stunted" mindless robotic assholes. You didn't expect people to come defend themselves? I'm still lost as to what point the article is trying to push, whether or not it's satire.
I find it pretty funny, too, but the problem that I had with it is that it's just too real for me. I couldn't tell if he thought these things and was angry-to-the-point-of-insanity, or if he was just being satirical.
The article wasn't the best written and I can see how at parts it reads a bit too intense. Still, especially the last paragraph, I think it really was meant to be funny.
Yeah, I think so... but by the time I got to the end, I was pretty disengaged.
As someone with a technical job, I find I have way more outlet for creativity and expression than most of my friends in non-technical fields. Everybody has to make a living and I actually enjoy what I do (which does involve some coding) whereas my non-technical friends often end up in soul-crushing retail or service jobs with duties much more narrow and robotic than I have to deal with. Anyone who thinks technical jobs are simple and deterministic number crunching is pretty uninformed. They will be among the last to be replaced by digital automatons since they are not simple nor highly repetitive in nature.
Having money from a technical job also means I can enjoy experiences and art outside of work much less constrained by a tight budget. I don't have less time and energy to read literature than a barista but I sure have more resources to try new foods and experiences and travel to interesting places around the world than someone barely making rent.
As much as I appreciate all the passionate arguments you people have made, I'm not sure this article was meant to be taken seriously. It looks like satire to me.
I have to believe that it is, in fact, satire, because the alternative would be to assume awful things about the author.
Unfortunately, it is so far over into Poe's Law territory that the apparent vitriol and spite largely obscures the actual points they're trying to make. I'm not sure who the intended audience is, unless it's some set of people who already deeply dislike or resent IT professionals.
I just spent an awful lot of time thinking Poe’s law had something to do with the guy who wrote The Raven.