I was watching the latest few Book of Boba Fett the other day and it really hit me how heavily fucking everything modern Disney makes runs on nostalgia and interconnectedness. And maybe the series...
I was watching the latest few Book of Boba Fett the other day and it really hit me how heavily fucking everything modern Disney makes runs on nostalgia and interconnectedness. And maybe the series about Boba Fett isn't the place to complain, but like
Spoilers
The Mandalorian fucking shows up and wants to visit Luke and Grogu and now Asoka is there too. Oh look it's R2D2, we like R2D2. Hey look, it's droids building buildings in the same architectural style we see on Luke's depression island in 8. I guess that's here too.
Starwars is supposed to be a huge universe full of lots of alien worlds and cool people, but it sure feels like FUCKING EVERYTHING ties back to the same like 10 people and places that actually matter. To be fair 8 made an effort to subvert a lot of the tropes in the series up to that point, but that made lots of people angry so they made 9.
And MCU IMO has deeply terrible writing in nearly all cases, with a few exceptions. But the comics they're based off of have a huge degree of variance in terms writing quality, so that's somewhat expected.
But audiences eat it up and it makes shit tons of money.
So I definitely see his point. Which isn't to say that his movies deserve more views or whatever, I don't have any particular feelings about the Emmerich or his work. But I think he's right about it causing major damage to the medium.
And like, if not for the MCU and Star Wars it would have been something else. Major corporations like Disney love buying up IP and then shoving it down our throats, because creating anything new is risky and they don't like risk.
Honestly I love the interconnectedness. I enjoy there being a lot of world building, lore and continuity in the media I consume. That's part of what made me fall in love with Star Wars to begin...
how heavily fucking everything modern Disney makes runs on nostalgia and interconnectedness
Honestly I love the interconnectedness. I enjoy there being a lot of world building, lore and continuity in the media I consume. That's part of what made me fall in love with Star Wars to begin with (although admittedly the SWEU's continuity was dodgy at best). Same thing got me into Warcraft and Star Trek.
The downside being that it is now really difficult for a new fan to get into stuff. I encountered this with the MCU a few years ago. I wanted to see what all the hype around Infinity War and End Game is, but I had what felt like a mile-long list of films to catch up on. And that was before we got all the D+ shows, so this is only going to get worse. Star Wars is on its way to being the same way (although if we consider the EU of old, it was always a problem). At a certain point there's going to have to be a "catchup mechanic" for these movies. You can only cram so much "previously on the MCU" type dialogue in a movie. Whether that's a feature-length recap or like a documentary-style recap of the events, I don't really know. But they're not going to grab new fans by having dozens of films and TV shows as the barrier to entry.
The MCU phases could be a way to deal with that, but in practice they're so interconnected that they become abstract to the viewer. But quite a few interpreters are on their way out, like Robert...
The MCU phases could be a way to deal with that, but in practice they're so interconnected that they become abstract to the viewer. But quite a few interpreters are on their way out, like Robert Downey Jr., Scarlett Johanson, Chris Evan, and, sadly, Chadwick Boseman. So that may make things easier for new fans.
Their newest film is interesting in that regard. spoilers for Spider-Man: No Way Home To get the most out of this film, you need to have seen not just the previous two MCU Spider-Man films, but...
I wanted to see what all the hype around Infinity War and End Game is, but I had what felt like a mile-long list of films to catch up on.
Their newest film is interesting in that regard.
spoilers for Spider-Man: No Way Home
To get the most out of this film, you need to have seen not just the previous two MCU Spider-Man films, but also Doctor Strange, the three Sam Raimi directed Spider-Man films, and the two Marc Webb directed Spider-Man films. It's no longer enough to keep track of the sprawling MCU, but with this multiverse nonsense, we have to be familiar with other continuities as well!
But at the same time, this film did a soft reboot of the Spider-Man franchise. At the end of the film, he is completely disentangled from the Avengers and every other MCU character, as they've all forgotten he exists. Disney is now free (if they want) to make a new Spider-Man franchise, which will be much more accessible to new viewers.
Everything Disney does now is about quantity and not quality. They have so much money that a properly budgeted movie from their studio will always be at least a spectacle.
Everything Disney does now is about quantity and not quality. They have so much money that a properly budgeted movie from their studio will always be at least a spectacle.
Hmm. I can see this if you mainly consider Star Wars/Marvel, but I think their animation studios have been really hitting it out of the park. Frozen, Moana, and recently Encanto all break the...
Hmm. I can see this if you mainly consider Star Wars/Marvel, but I think their animation studios have been really hitting it out of the park. Frozen, Moana, and recently Encanto all break the typical mold in some ways, and are hugely influential on kids.
I totally agree. While I miss the look of traditional animation, I can still vouch for Moana and Encanto as quality movies! The other recent entries vary widely, with Frozen and Tangled coming in...
I totally agree. While I miss the look of traditional animation, I can still vouch for Moana and Encanto as quality movies! The other recent entries vary widely, with Frozen and Tangled coming in just underneath. Raya and the Last Dragon was mostly meh for me, but sure, it's pretty I guess.
Big Hero 6 was good. I'm kind of over the team-building superhero movie plot, but its heart was in the right place. At least, I thought it had heart.
I enjoyed Wreck It Ralph enough, but the part of me that didn't enjoy it really resonates with all the comments above about entertainment resorting to nostalgia callbacks, and interconnectedness substituting for good story.
I hated Wreck It Ralph 2, though. It leaned full tilt into embracing all of the complaints above. That movie is so auto-cannibalistic that it rehashes the plot from the first movie!
Yeah, I think it's an overreaction, to be honest. We are in the Golden Age of video content, we never produced so much of everything, and it was never so accessible. You can watch movies all day...
Yeah, I think it's an overreaction, to be honest. We are in the Golden Age of video content, we never produced so much of everything, and it was never so accessible. You can watch movies all day every day without ever touching super heroes. It's not that hard to ignore.
Emmerich himself is having no trouble to make movies, he made one in 2019 and another now in 2022.
I clapped when I saw [THING TO WHICH I HAVE AN EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT]!! Also, the "club music" they play is god-awful. And while the matrix look has not aged well at all, at least it was cool at...
I clapped when I saw [THING TO WHICH I HAVE AN EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT]!!
Also, the "club music" they play is god-awful. And while the matrix look has not aged well at all, at least it was cool at the time. Those street punk get-ups, sheesh. Olyphant's character is hot though.
I've wanted to go to the cinema several times the last couple of years. Especially since as groups we've been able to have a small theater to ourselves due to covid, if we go with a well-spaced...
I've wanted to go to the cinema several times the last couple of years. Especially since as groups we've been able to have a small theater to ourselves due to covid, if we go with a well-spaced relatively small group of friends.
But we can't ever find something we want to see.
Volume of movies made doesn't mean that cinema is in a healthy state. As a group, we're not interested in super hero movies or sequels in successful franchises. That hugely cuts down the selection offered here at least.
But that's always been a problem, it's nothing specific to the era of Disney's Star Wars or the MCU. I do agree that it's a frustrating problem, especially with the continued consolidation of...
But that's always been a problem, it's nothing specific to the era of Disney's Star Wars or the MCU. I do agree that it's a frustrating problem, especially with the continued consolidation of movie theater chains and the shuttering of independent movie theaters.
I'm sure that if we ran the numbers today and compared to some years ago, it's a bigger issue now than it was before. I think it'd be really cool if someone took the time to (or already has) run...
I'm sure that if we ran the numbers today and compared to some years ago, it's a bigger issue now than it was before.
I think it'd be really cool if someone took the time to (or already has) run the numbers.
Some cities have networks of alternative film theaters. In theory we still have 6 locations in my city, but I have no idea how they're doing during covid.
Some cities have networks of alternative film theaters. In theory we still have 6 locations in my city, but I have no idea how they're doing during covid.
I wonder if this is the industry giving up on younger people. Do youngins go to the movies anymore? It was never that good of a deal, specially if you can have a movie night at home with actual...
I wonder if this is the industry giving up on younger people. Do youngins go to the movies anymore? It was never that good of a deal, specially if you can have a movie night at home with actual food and drinks.
I did chuckle at this. I would absolutely not call Moonfall "high concept". It's dumb as a bag of dirt. Emmerich is the modern Irwin Allen and I had fun with the sheer stupidity of the movie, but...
this month’s high-concept sci-fi action-adventure, Moonfall
I did chuckle at this. I would absolutely not call Moonfall "high concept". It's dumb as a bag of dirt. Emmerich is the modern Irwin Allen and I had fun with the sheer stupidity of the movie, but high concept it is not.
It's easy to say Roland Emmerich bashing big budget movies a bit hypocritical but I get where he's coming from. It's not about the "size" of the movie but about the fact that they're all established franchises.
I don't think it's those franchises (or any other specific ones) but the fact that there has been a "race to the top" in terms of studio films. They aren't interested in a $20 million movie that will make them $50 million. They'd rather invest $250 million on a movie and make $1 billion. If they're going to invest $250 million on a project, they either want it to be a known property with a built in audience or something with a big name attached.
A good example of this is John Carter. Disney spent over $300 million on the movie. I think the only reason it even got made was because it was existing IP. They would never have spent that much on a new property. It may not have had a big audience nearly 100 years after the original stories but Disney basically treated it like a massive franchise before it even got off the ground. The same can be seen with Tron: Legacy.
Another aspect is the consolidation of IP under so few companies. If you're Disney, why wouldn't you milk Star Wars for all it's worth? They spent $4+ billion on it, so they have to make that money back somehow. Why else would they buy it? They're also cranking out a lot of Star Wars, Marvel and older content right now as a way to drive Disney+ subscriptions.
Saying, "I loved Hocus Pocus as a kid and the new sequel is only on Disney+, I guess I have to sign up to see it," is a powerful incentive.
Interestingly, the phrase "high-concept" usually refers more to how simplistic an idea is than how intelligent it is: "High-concept" -- Wikipedia (This doesn't take away from your point at all, I...
I did chuckle at this. I would absolutely not call Moonfall "high concept". It's dumb as a bag of dirt. Emmerich is the modern Irwin Allen and I had fun with the sheer stupidity of the movie, but high concept it is not.
Interestingly, the phrase "high-concept" usually refers more to how simplistic an idea is than how intelligent it is:
High concept is a type of artistic work that can be easily pitched with a succinctly stated premise.[1] It can be contrasted with low concept, which is more concerned with character development and other subtleties that are not as easily summarized.
In practice, the term "high concept" is often employed for stories with high external stakes of great magnitude (relative to the characters). They generally feature a clear, manichaean conflict...
In practice, the term "high concept" is often employed for stories with high external stakes of great magnitude (relative to the characters). They generally feature a clear, manichaean conflict (good vs evil).
External is in opposition to psychological (internal).
Indiana Jones, Star Wars, and Armageddon are high concept. The Hours and Broken Flowers are not.
I think most if not all Emmerich movies are high concept.
I was watching the latest few Book of Boba Fett the other day and it really hit me how heavily fucking everything modern Disney makes runs on nostalgia and interconnectedness. And maybe the series about Boba Fett isn't the place to complain, but like
Spoilers
The Mandalorian fucking shows up and wants to visit Luke and Grogu and now Asoka is there too. Oh look it's R2D2, we like R2D2. Hey look, it's droids building buildings in the same architectural style we see on Luke's depression island in 8. I guess that's here too.
Starwars is supposed to be a huge universe full of lots of alien worlds and cool people, but it sure feels like FUCKING EVERYTHING ties back to the same like 10 people and places that actually matter. To be fair 8 made an effort to subvert a lot of the tropes in the series up to that point, but that made lots of people angry so they made 9.
And MCU IMO has deeply terrible writing in nearly all cases, with a few exceptions. But the comics they're based off of have a huge degree of variance in terms writing quality, so that's somewhat expected.
But audiences eat it up and it makes shit tons of money.
So I definitely see his point. Which isn't to say that his movies deserve more views or whatever, I don't have any particular feelings about the Emmerich or his work. But I think he's right about it causing major damage to the medium.
And like, if not for the MCU and Star Wars it would have been something else. Major corporations like Disney love buying up IP and then shoving it down our throats, because creating anything new is risky and they don't like risk.
I fucking hate it. End rant.
Honestly I love the interconnectedness. I enjoy there being a lot of world building, lore and continuity in the media I consume. That's part of what made me fall in love with Star Wars to begin with (although admittedly the SWEU's continuity was dodgy at best). Same thing got me into Warcraft and Star Trek.
The downside being that it is now really difficult for a new fan to get into stuff. I encountered this with the MCU a few years ago. I wanted to see what all the hype around Infinity War and End Game is, but I had what felt like a mile-long list of films to catch up on. And that was before we got all the D+ shows, so this is only going to get worse. Star Wars is on its way to being the same way (although if we consider the EU of old, it was always a problem). At a certain point there's going to have to be a "catchup mechanic" for these movies. You can only cram so much "previously on the MCU" type dialogue in a movie. Whether that's a feature-length recap or like a documentary-style recap of the events, I don't really know. But they're not going to grab new fans by having dozens of films and TV shows as the barrier to entry.
The MCU phases could be a way to deal with that, but in practice they're so interconnected that they become abstract to the viewer. But quite a few interpreters are on their way out, like Robert Downey Jr., Scarlett Johanson, Chris Evan, and, sadly, Chadwick Boseman. So that may make things easier for new fans.
Their newest film is interesting in that regard.
spoilers for Spider-Man: No Way Home
To get the most out of this film, you need to have seen not just the previous two MCU Spider-Man films, but also Doctor Strange, the three Sam Raimi directed Spider-Man films, and the two Marc Webb directed Spider-Man films. It's no longer enough to keep track of the sprawling MCU, but with this multiverse nonsense, we have to be familiar with other continuities as well!But at the same time, this film did a soft reboot of the Spider-Man franchise. At the end of the film, he is completely disentangled from the Avengers and every other MCU character, as they've all forgotten he exists. Disney is now free (if they want) to make a new Spider-Man franchise, which will be much more accessible to new viewers.
Everything Disney does now is about quantity and not quality. They have so much money that a properly budgeted movie from their studio will always be at least a spectacle.
Hmm. I can see this if you mainly consider Star Wars/Marvel, but I think their animation studios have been really hitting it out of the park. Frozen, Moana, and recently Encanto all break the typical mold in some ways, and are hugely influential on kids.
I totally agree. While I miss the look of traditional animation, I can still vouch for Moana and Encanto as quality movies! The other recent entries vary widely, with Frozen and Tangled coming in just underneath. Raya and the Last Dragon was mostly meh for me, but sure, it's pretty I guess.
Big Hero 6 was good. I'm kind of over the team-building superhero movie plot, but its heart was in the right place. At least, I thought it had heart.
I enjoyed Wreck It Ralph enough, but the part of me that didn't enjoy it really resonates with all the comments above about entertainment resorting to nostalgia callbacks, and interconnectedness substituting for good story.
I hated Wreck It Ralph 2, though. It leaned full tilt into embracing all of the complaints above. That movie is so auto-cannibalistic that it rehashes the plot from the first movie!
Yeah, I think it's an overreaction, to be honest. We are in the Golden Age of video content, we never produced so much of everything, and it was never so accessible. You can watch movies all day every day without ever touching super heroes. It's not that hard to ignore.
Emmerich himself is having no trouble to make movies, he made one in 2019 and another now in 2022.
I clapped when I saw [THING TO WHICH I HAVE AN EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT]!!
Also, the "club music" they play is god-awful. And while the matrix look has not aged well at all, at least it was cool at the time. Those street punk get-ups, sheesh. Olyphant's character is hot though.
Is it? There are more movies being made now than ever before.
I've wanted to go to the cinema several times the last couple of years. Especially since as groups we've been able to have a small theater to ourselves due to covid, if we go with a well-spaced relatively small group of friends.
But we can't ever find something we want to see.
Volume of movies made doesn't mean that cinema is in a healthy state. As a group, we're not interested in super hero movies or sequels in successful franchises. That hugely cuts down the selection offered here at least.
But that's always been a problem, it's nothing specific to the era of Disney's Star Wars or the MCU. I do agree that it's a frustrating problem, especially with the continued consolidation of movie theater chains and the shuttering of independent movie theaters.
I'm sure that if we ran the numbers today and compared to some years ago, it's a bigger issue now than it was before.
I think it'd be really cool if someone took the time to (or already has) run the numbers.
Dune and Green Knight were on my list of favorite movies ever. French Dispatch was also good. And this is just theatrical releases this past year.
Some cities have networks of alternative film theaters. In theory we still have 6 locations in my city, but I have no idea how they're doing during covid.
I wonder if this is the industry giving up on younger people. Do youngins go to the movies anymore? It was never that good of a deal, specially if you can have a movie night at home with actual food and drinks.
I did chuckle at this. I would absolutely not call Moonfall "high concept". It's dumb as a bag of dirt. Emmerich is the modern Irwin Allen and I had fun with the sheer stupidity of the movie, but high concept it is not.
It's easy to say Roland Emmerich bashing big budget movies a bit hypocritical but I get where he's coming from. It's not about the "size" of the movie but about the fact that they're all established franchises.
I don't think it's those franchises (or any other specific ones) but the fact that there has been a "race to the top" in terms of studio films. They aren't interested in a $20 million movie that will make them $50 million. They'd rather invest $250 million on a movie and make $1 billion. If they're going to invest $250 million on a project, they either want it to be a known property with a built in audience or something with a big name attached.
A good example of this is John Carter. Disney spent over $300 million on the movie. I think the only reason it even got made was because it was existing IP. They would never have spent that much on a new property. It may not have had a big audience nearly 100 years after the original stories but Disney basically treated it like a massive franchise before it even got off the ground. The same can be seen with Tron: Legacy.
Another aspect is the consolidation of IP under so few companies. If you're Disney, why wouldn't you milk Star Wars for all it's worth? They spent $4+ billion on it, so they have to make that money back somehow. Why else would they buy it? They're also cranking out a lot of Star Wars, Marvel and older content right now as a way to drive Disney+ subscriptions.
Saying, "I loved Hocus Pocus as a kid and the new sequel is only on Disney+, I guess I have to sign up to see it," is a powerful incentive.
Interestingly, the phrase "high-concept" usually refers more to how simplistic an idea is than how intelligent it is:
(This doesn't take away from your point at all, I just thought I'd share since I was confused about the meaning of "high-concept" for many years).
In practice, the term "high concept" is often employed for stories with high external stakes of great magnitude (relative to the characters). They generally feature a clear, manichaean conflict (good vs evil).
External is in opposition to psychological (internal).
Indiana Jones, Star Wars, and Armageddon are high concept. The Hours and Broken Flowers are not.
I think most if not all Emmerich movies are high concept.
Some projection going on here, for sure.
Yeah, I was gonna say. I actually like his movies, but they're not exactly masterpieces of sophistication.