37 votes

US trade group asks VP Pence to ‘seriously consider' invoking 25th Amendment to remove Trump

38 comments

  1. [2]
    cfabbro
    Link
    @Deimos, feel free to lock this topic too. I just thought this was pretty noteworthy, since the National Association of Manufacturers is apparently one of the largest and most influential trade...

    @Deimos, feel free to lock this topic too. I just thought this was pretty noteworthy, since the National Association of Manufacturers is apparently one of the largest and most influential trade associations in the US, staunch Republican allies, and their president/CEO, Jay Timmons, is also a former Executive Director of the National Republican Senatorial Committee.

    p.s. Jay Timmons full statement can be read here:
    https://www.nam.org/manufacturers-call-on-armed-thugs-to-cease-violence-at-capitol-11628/?stream=news-insights

    10 votes
    1. Amarok
      Link Parent
      Perhaps we could do it like the covid topics - links to news and streams only, keep the discussion out of it (and form our own opinions).

      Perhaps we could do it like the covid topics - links to news and streams only, keep the discussion out of it (and form our own opinions).

      6 votes
  2. [34]
    spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    Unfortunately, I think it would be too little, too late. Removing Trump using the procedure in the 25th Amendment (background info for anyone unfamiliar: Wikipedia and Vox explainer from 2017)...

    Unfortunately, I think it would be too little, too late.

    Removing Trump using the procedure in the 25th Amendment (background info for anyone unfamiliar: Wikipedia and Vox explainer from 2017) would only remove Trump a few weeks early, and importantly it would add fuel to the fire of the right-wing "election was stolen" crowd.

    6 votes
    1. elcuello
      Link Parent
      I'm just gonna say as an outsider from another country if the US don't do it you have lost the last thread of respect from a lot of people and countries. We've watched this shit show and this...

      I'm just gonna say as an outsider from another country if the US don't do it you have lost the last thread of respect from a lot of people and countries. We've watched this shit show and this fucking idiot tear your country apart with open mouths for 4 years now and if this isn't the final straw I really don't see why other countries should trust the US anymore. The US needs too show the world that this has consequences...

      12 votes
    2. [2]
      Eabryt
      Link Parent
      I think one advantage is that I believe it would restrict him from running again in 2024. That may just be impeachment/removal though.

      I think one advantage is that I believe it would restrict him from running again in 2024. That may just be impeachment/removal though.

      8 votes
      1. spit-evil-olive-tips
        Link Parent
        Yeah, AFAIK, removal via the 25th would not include a prohibition on holding office in the future, but impeachment could include that as part of the punishment. And interestingly, there's a legal...

        Yeah, AFAIK, removal via the 25th would not include a prohibition on holding office in the future, but impeachment could include that as part of the punishment.

        And interestingly, there's a legal argument that doing so only requires a simple majority of the Senate, compared to removal which is a two-thirds majority.

        From an op-ed published a few days ago:

        Per the Cornell Law School Legal Information Institute: "Unlike removal, disqualification from office is a discretionary judgment, and there is no explicit constitutional linkage to the two-thirds vote on conviction. Although an argument can be made that disqualification should nonetheless require a two-thirds vote, the Senate has determined that disqualification may be accomplished by a simple majority vote."

        4 votes
    3. [6]
      Omnicrola
      Link Parent
      Yea I'm split on it. On the one hand, it's the 2nd most consequential thing that can be done to him short of impeachment. On the other hand, it would absolutely feed into the Qrioters and dissent...

      Yea I'm split on it. On the one hand, it's the 2nd most consequential thing that can be done to him short of impeachment. On the other hand, it would absolutely feed into the Qrioters and dissent on the right. On the gripping hand, not even if Trump himself said "its ok, all my concerns have been addressed and I fully concede and endorse Biden" would appease that crowd at this point.

      6 votes
      1. [5]
        Parliament
        Link Parent
        I don't think it matters how Trump is removed from office to his followers because it will be spun as fraudulent regardless. You have to take his power away immediately. What's stopping him from...

        I don't think it matters how Trump is removed from office to his followers because it will be spun as fraudulent regardless. You have to take his power away immediately. What's stopping him from staging another rally at the Washington Monument to keep this going? Being removed as president. I'm most worried about all the dangerous ways he can use his power over the next 2 weeks and believe that is worse than the backlash of removing him before January 21st.

        7 votes
        1. [4]
          Omnicrola
          Link Parent
          I think I agree, after sleeping on it. In the end there's no way to appease the mob, they're a mob, they're not rational. So he should be removed from power. Both for the immediate safety of the...

          I think I agree, after sleeping on it. In the end there's no way to appease the mob, they're a mob, they're not rational. So he should be removed from power. Both for the immediate safety of the country, and to establish the precedent. To have a president incite a mob, on television, then have that mob crash Congress, and have zero consequences would set an insane precedent.

          There where many remarks made last January that if Trump couldn't be impeached and removed for the Ukraine thing, then no President would ever be impeached for anything ever again. Well he got impeached but not removed. The child pushed a boundary, and was given a stern finger-wag and told not do do it again. So what happened? The child kept pushing, to see how far the boundaries can be pushed.

          8 votes
          1. [3]
            Good_Apollo
            Link Parent
            There’s a lot of people who keep commenting (not here much) that the mob was relatively peaceful, and that was true for a lot of them, but setting the casual precedent that it’s okay to storm the...

            There’s a lot of people who keep commenting (not here much) that the mob was relatively peaceful, and that was true for a lot of them, but setting the casual precedent that it’s okay to storm the capitol building during a crucial session...that’s crossing a line that is pretty crazy to be taken so lightly.

            The photos of the guys in military fatigues, armed, and with bullet proof vests, ammo pouches, and zip-ties are pretty goddamn concerning if you assume they meant to take hostages during the siege. It’s bonkers it isn’t discussed more despite the crowds of merely sign waving people who did not enter the building. I’m all for protest but some of them crossed a serious line.

            6 votes
            1. [2]
              spit-evil-olive-tips
              Link Parent
              Another thing I haven't seen talked about enough is that they built a fucking gallows. Bringing rope to a protest and tying a noose is one thing. That gallows, as the video shows, is pretty...

              The photos of the guys in military fatigues, armed, and with bullet proof vests, ammo pouches, and zip-ties are pretty goddamn concerning if you assume they meant to take hostages during the siege.

              Another thing I haven't seen talked about enough is that they built a fucking gallows.

              Bringing rope to a protest and tying a noose is one thing.

              That gallows, as the video shows, is pretty well-built and able to support the weight of two adults. That's not a spur-of-the-moment thing. Someone sat down with graph paper, plotted out the design, then got busy with a table saw and a trip to the lumber yard.

              5 votes
              1. Good_Apollo
                Link Parent
                Wow I never saw that, holding up signs with a drawing would be sufficient for making a point...that's again just kind of crossing a line of violence. The thing that bugs me is that they seemed to...

                Wow I never saw that, holding up signs with a drawing would be sufficient for making a point...that's again just kind of crossing a line of violence.

                The thing that bugs me is that they seemed to have this very real thirst for blood against the government, which I can kind of respect despite their actual basis for it being stupid (for Trump instead of general corruption that IS rampant in Washington) but when push came to light tap when the police actually arrived in force for the curfew...they just folded like a house of cards. I guess that respect for the blue runs so deep and counter-active to their hatred for 'the state' despite the police most definitely being a part of that state. Something I wish they understood when it came to BLM.

                3 votes
    4. NaraVara
      Link Parent
      Fires already saturated. Fuel isn’t the rate limiting reagent, its oxygen. And the only way to cut that off is to choke off the Q anon horseshit. There need to be consequences. He needs to be...

      Fires already saturated. Fuel isn’t the rate limiting reagent, its oxygen. And the only way to cut that off is to choke off the Q anon horseshit.

      There need to be consequences. He needs to be booted. People need to go to jail.

      Otherwise they will have no reason to ever stop. They will do it again, bigger and bolder.

      6 votes
    5. [23]
      joplin
      Link Parent
      It would also allow Pence to pardon him for any federal crimes, which I don't think would be a great idea.

      It would also allow Pence to pardon him for any federal crimes, which I don't think would be a great idea.

      5 votes
      1. [14]
        MimicSquid
        Link Parent
        But it would limit Trump's ability to preemptively pardon all those insurrectionists, for instance.

        But it would limit Trump's ability to preemptively pardon all those insurrectionists, for instance.

        5 votes
        1. [10]
          cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          And it would also hopefully allow Twitter to finally ban him too, so he can't keep inciting people with his incessant tweets falsely claiming the election was stolen. Not to mention it showing...

          And it would also hopefully allow Twitter to finally ban him too, so he can't keep inciting people with his incessant tweets falsely claiming the election was stolen.

          Not to mention it showing there is at least some modicum of justice left in the US... especially since I still have my doubts he will ever actually face any Federal charges for all his bullshit anyways.


          EDIT: Semi-related update (which I didn't know where else to mention). Twitter actually just removed a bunch of Trump's recent election fraud tweets and retweets a short while ago! Not just put a warning under them like usual... straight up removed them. They are now showing "This Tweet is no longer available. Learn more" in their place.

          8 votes
          1. [10]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. [6]
              teaearlgraycold
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              You saw today what politely avoiding fanning the flames gets you. Criminals need to see the consequences to their actions. We need to see Trump, every one of his co-conspirators, and every...

              You saw today what politely avoiding fanning the flames gets you. Criminals need to see the consequences to their actions. We need to see Trump, every one of his co-conspirators, and every trespasser of the Capitol today taken to court. Republicans and Democrats need to do this together.

              11 votes
              1. [5]
                nukeman
                Link Parent
                I originally had a longer post but my internet crashed and I lost it. Much of the far right views things in apocalyptic terms (disappearance of the white race, a ring of pedophiles raping and...

                I originally had a longer post but my internet crashed and I lost it.

                Much of the far right views things in apocalyptic terms (disappearance of the white race, a ring of pedophiles raping and murdering children), and is willing to thus take proportionate measures. Crack down too hard and you get another Nashville or god forbid another Oklahoma City.

                Frankly I’m surprised we haven’t had a worse domestic terror attack in recent years (although some of the mass shootings may be characterized as such). You can buy explosives over the counter at Cabela’s in most states; in addition, infrastructure is highly vulnerable to asymmetric warfare tactics.

                Just for fun: the second link is of a tank farm/pumping station on the Colonial Pipeline (a major pipeline carrying refined petroleum products from Houston all the way to NYC). Let’s do a little open source vulnerability analysis; what sort of things do you notice?

                3 votes
                1. [2]
                  j3n
                  Link Parent
                  Wait, you're seriously saying we shouldn't punish people for their crimes because others will commit acts of terrorism in retaliation? How is that anything other than a preemptive surrender?

                  Crack down too hard and you get another Nashville or god forbid another Oklahoma City.

                  Wait, you're seriously saying we shouldn't punish people for their crimes because others will commit acts of terrorism in retaliation? How is that anything other than a preemptive surrender?

                  7 votes
                  1. nukeman
                    Link Parent
                    No, we have to tread lightly and be careful in how we go about it. I’ll admit that OKC is a bit extreme, since the inspiration (Waco, Ruby Ridge) were both themselves violent incidents, but it’s...

                    No, we have to tread lightly and be careful in how we go about it. I’ll admit that OKC is a bit extreme, since the inspiration (Waco, Ruby Ridge) were both themselves violent incidents, but it’s possible for nonviolent ones to cause reactions like it, especially when it will be perceived as a loss of power (e.g., one rep’s suggestion to expel those who supported challenges to the election).

                    Ideally, prevention is the best medicine. Curing is very difficult.

                    3 votes
                2. [2]
                  callmedante
                  Link Parent
                  I will readily admit that I'm in a mental full of anger and disgust. That said... Are you seriously suggesting that we let these fuckers loose, because otherwise they might cause harm? Look at...

                  I will readily admit that I'm in a mental full of anger and disgust. That said...

                  Are you seriously suggesting that we let these fuckers loose, because otherwise they might cause harm? Look at what happened yesterday. They stormed the Capitol to stage a coup. This is terrorism. Textbook definition. They have already caused harm. This position is no different than "what's the harm in humoring him for a few more weeks". We see the harm, right in front of us. The very seat of our government was attacked, and you have the nerve to suggest that we shouldn't punish them.

                  And how about we drop the "open source vulnerability analysis" bullshit?

                  6 votes
                  1. nukeman
                    Link Parent
                    I’m not suggesting we don’t punish them, I’m suggesting we have to tread carefully. Poorly-executing a crackdown against the far right is a recipe for disaster. A wrong court date on a piece of...

                    I’m not suggesting we don’t punish them, I’m suggesting we have to tread carefully. Poorly-executing a crackdown against the far right is a recipe for disaster. A wrong court date on a piece of paper turned into a fatal standoff, a failure to quietly arrest a cult leader turned into death by fire, and those combined catalyzed a man to truck bomb a federal building and kill 168 people. Imagine if Capitol Police had killed more people yesterday in a single, discrete incident. That may have stopped things sooner (or not, information travels fast, and there might have been a firefight as more people drew guns and were wound up), but it would have created martyrs. Heck, the woman who died yesterday is being martyrized.

                    5 votes
            2. cfabbro
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              He is already a martyr to his supporters, and he has been fanning the flames for the last few weeks (including repeatedly again today). And even if invoking the 25th is basically symbolic at this...

              He is already a martyr to his supporters, and he has been fanning the flames for the last few weeks (including repeatedly again today). And even if invoking the 25th is basically symbolic at this point, symbolic gestures still matter. If the country wants to have any hope of the partisan political divide inflicted wound finally healing, the Republicans being the ones responsible for invoking the 25th or impeaching him would be a damn good first step towards ensuring that, IMO.

              9 votes
            3. Icarus
              Link Parent
              Former Joint Chiefs Chair Mike Mullen tells @JudyWoodruff Trump "incited" failed insurrection, says Trump "not in position to lead the next 14 days." Warns "I don't think we're done. Today was not...

              Former Joint Chiefs Chair Mike Mullen tells @JudyWoodruff
              Trump "incited" failed insurrection, says Trump "not in position to lead the next 14 days." Warns "I don't think we're done. Today was not it. We need to act in a preventive way to prevent more from happening."

              I think there is a real danger of the damage he can do in 14 days. There are Congress members still clinging to the idea the election was a fraud despite what happened today. This isn't over. At least based on what I'm seeing on C-SPAN.

              6 votes
            4. NaraVara
              Link Parent
              This is exactly what Venezuelans said the first time Hugo Chavez tried to stage a coup. They pardoned him in some misguided show of comity. In hindsight, we realize it’s a great way to embolden...

              Look, I know this is the hard answer considering what happened today, however, with 14 days to go in his presidency, the best option is to do nothing.

              This is exactly what Venezuelans said the first time Hugo Chavez tried to stage a coup. They pardoned him in some misguided show of comity.

              In hindsight, we realize it’s a great way to embolden bad behavior in the future and turn a stable democracy into a dysfunctionally corrupt petro-state.

              6 votes
        2. [3]
          joplin
          Link Parent
          Is it possible the terrorists could be held without charge for 2 weeks, therefore leaving him unable to pardon them?

          Is it possible the terrorists could be held without charge for 2 weeks, therefore leaving him unable to pardon them?

          3 votes
          1. arghdos
            Link Parent
            Typically no, you must be charged within 48-72 hours of arrest. It’s possible if they invoked some patriot act shit and classified this as terrorism, they could hold you indefinitely but honestly...

            Typically no, you must be charged within 48-72 hours of arrest. It’s possible if they invoked some patriot act shit and classified this as terrorism, they could hold you indefinitely but honestly that’s terrifying to consider (if today has taught us anything, remember that once unleashed something like that could easily be brought out at the next BLM protest or whatever...)

            7 votes
          2. Cycloneblaze
            Link Parent
            They don't need to be charged for him to pardon them; he could be writing a pardon right now if he wished

            They don't need to be charged for him to pardon them; he could be writing a pardon right now if he wished

            3 votes
      2. [5]
        Adys
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I think Pence pardoning Trump would further delegitimize the GOP. They're heavily suffering right now, and Trump threw them completely under the bus -- why would they care about pardoning him? He...

        I think Pence pardoning Trump would further delegitimize the GOP. They're heavily suffering right now, and Trump threw them completely under the bus -- why would they care about pardoning him? He was a useful idiot until now, but they lost all three of the senate, the house and the white house so there isn't much left to do there.

        4 votes
        1. [2]
          joplin
          Link Parent
          Remember that Trump didn't lose the election by very much, relatively speaking. ~74 million people voted for him. There are large numbers of Republican voters who think this was totally justified....

          why would they care about pardoning him?

          Remember that Trump didn't lose the election by very much, relatively speaking. ~74 million people voted for him. There are large numbers of Republican voters who think this was totally justified. GOP legislators who want to get re-elected have to play to their base of Trump supporters. That's why they would care about pardoning him.

          5 votes
          1. Adys
            Link Parent
            The Trump+Republican alliance is a dead one at this point, IMO. Most GOP republicans supported trump because he could push their agenda and be a boogeyman for the democrats. Trump is out, whether...

            The Trump+Republican alliance is a dead one at this point, IMO. Most GOP republicans supported trump because he could push their agenda and be a boogeyman for the democrats. Trump is out, whether that's tomorrow or in two weeks, doesn't matter.

            The GOP has already irrecoverably fractured. There's not many ways out of this. Being on the side that is against Trump right now is the smarter bet, as Trumpers are toxic and their scorched earth nature is not good for politics (as is now obvious AND ALWAYS FUCKING WAS, right Lindsey?).

            Pardoning Trump may look good for Trumpers, but it will look pretty bad for Republicans and really bad for democrats. It's also always massively unpopular - when presidents have done it before, they had 4 years to deal with the fallout. Pence would have a few days.

            I dunno, I don't see it happening.

            7 votes
        2. [2]
          wycy
          Link Parent
          They still solidly have the Supreme Court.

          they lost all three branches of the government

          They still solidly have the Supreme Court.

          4 votes
          1. Adys
            Link Parent
            Right my bad, I meant they lost senate/house/presidency.

            Right my bad, I meant they lost senate/house/presidency.

            2 votes
      3. [3]
        streblo
        Link Parent
        Doubtful that would happen. Even Pence is sick of his shit, he/his staff changed his twitter banner to a Biden/Harris image: https://twitter.com/Mike_Pence

        Doubtful that would happen. Even Pence is sick of his shit, he/his staff changed his twitter banner to a Biden/Harris image:

        https://twitter.com/Mike_Pence

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          cfabbro
          Link Parent
          Isn't that just Pence and his wife?

          Isn't that just Pence and his wife?

          3 votes
          1. streblo
            Link Parent
            Hmm, maybe? Probably? I may have been fake-news'd by a checkmark on Twitter.

            Hmm, maybe? Probably?

            I may have been fake-news'd by a checkmark on Twitter.

            2 votes
  3. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. stu2b50
      Link Parent
      He's "Mr. President" because he's the President of the Senate, and presides over the counting ceremonially as the President of the Senate, and there's a bunch of flowerly, old, ceremonial language...

      He's "Mr. President" because he's the President of the Senate, and presides over the counting ceremonially as the President of the Senate, and there's a bunch of flowerly, old, ceremonial language that you use in this process.

      14 votes