Everyone there should read this, even if I know it wouldn't change anything https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i-work-for-an-evil-company-but-outside-work-im-actually-a-really-good-person
It wouldn't be the first time that some "Western culture" supremacists have tried to appropriate Tolkien's work. He didn't take kindly to it then either.
It wouldn't be the first time that some "Western culture" supremacists have tried to appropriate Tolkien's work. He didn't take kindly to it then either.
Not that it particularly makes the company more or less evil, but palantir aren’t evil in LoTR. That’s more of a movie impression because they had to compress and remove some scenes down. The...
Not that it particularly makes the company more or less evil, but palantir aren’t evil in LoTR. That’s more of a movie impression because they had to compress and remove some scenes down.
The palantir are essentially super telescopes + FaceTime. It’s just that all the scenes in the movie that were kept was the times people FaceTimed satan.
Well it's not just the movie, it's that by the third age the palantiri that are around begin in Sauron, Saruman, and Denethor's hands and were used to drive Denethor mad with despair. They're...
Well it's not just the movie, it's that by the third age the palantiri that are around begin in Sauron, Saruman, and Denethor's hands and were used to drive Denethor mad with despair. They're pretty much only showing misleading visions in the trilogy, a feint by Aragorn, Pippin being the Ringbearer, the Black Fleet approaching Gondor.
Their use is compared by scholars to WWII propaganda, the follies of fortune telling, the seeking of God-like (Eru Iluvatar-like) knowledge by man (or well, angel). They're not evil in origin but put almost entirely to evil use. Aragorn uses it to provoke Sauron but not to try to gain his own knowledge.
So yeah, not a movie myth. Even in the books, the idea that you could create a Palantir and only use it for good is like Boromir wanting to keep the ring. Hubris and naiveté, at best. Malicious, selfish, controlling, and domineering at worst.
ETA given that it's Peter Thiel and he's named/backed FIVE companies after Tolkien references, and is a big fan, I think he just thinks it's some white"Western" supremacist narrative. The others are Anduril, Mithril, Rivendell, and Elven Immortality.
2nd edit: autocorrect is getting worse, I think I caught all the weird typos
That's selling Denethor short. He was actually very successfully using his palantir as a scouting tool to defend Gondor, and it's likely that if he had not done that, the situation on the border...
That's selling Denethor short. He was actually very successfully using his palantir as a scouting tool to defend Gondor, and it's likely that if he had not done that, the situation on the border would have been far worse by the time of the book's events.
Not to mention that Sauron actually so feared Denethor's mental strength that he refused to let any of his subordinates use his palantir, because he feared they would get dominated by Denethor. Nor could he dominate Denethor. Denethor therefore also blocked Sauron's minions from using what is an invaluable recon tool in an age without satelites.
Even when he was "tricked" - he really wasn't. Sauron and Denethor were right; the west was doomed. Even with a victory at pelenor fields, there was zero chance for the west to win as is. It was the definition of pyrrhic victory. Of course, what changed the situation was that Frodo was about to destroy the ring imminently, but no one could have known that.
The palantir was also instrumental to Sauron's defeat; it was because of Merry accidentally facetiming Sauron, and Aragorn intentionally facetiming him, that Sauron believed that Aragorn had the one ring, which caused him to gather his forces at the end, giving Frodo the chance to get to Mt. Doom
And all that doesn't even consider the fact that the palantir were critical pieces of defensive technology for the elves of middle earth, and the golden ages of gondor and anor, during the first two ages.
All that is to say, Palantir's founders would probably say that the item in question is an apt description of what they aim to create: a powerful tool of intelligence and surveillance that can be used for great good, and great evil.
I'm really talking about the trilogy, not the legendarium. Since that is what most people have read and where the outcomes of everything else play out. Denthor did do well, and then he failed out...
Exemplary
That's selling Denethor short. He was actually very successfully using his palantir as a scouting tool to defend Gondor, and it's likely that if he had not done that, the situation on the border would have been far worse by the time of the book's events.
I'm really talking about the trilogy, not the legendarium. Since that is what most people have read and where the outcomes of everything else play out.
Denthor did do well, and then he failed out of pride, grief and ultimately despair, fed by Sauron. Denethor considered Aragorn a rival, not his true king which given the rules of this world, is another failure of his pride.
Not to mention that Sauron actually so feared Denethor's mental strength that he refused to let any of his subordinates use his palantir, because he feared they would get dominated by Denethor. Nor could he dominate Denethor. Denethor therefore also blocked Sauron's minions from using what is an invaluable recon tool in an age without satelites.
Giving him credit for Sauron's actions feels a stretch to me. But regardless, overtime the Palantir was the means of wearing down his mental strength. Much like the One Ring, even if you could use it for good for a while or intend good... Even the strongest of men will fail.
Even when he was "tricked" - he really wasn't. Sauron and Denethor were right; the west was doomed. Even with a victory at pelenor fields, there was zero chance for the west to win as is. It was the definition of pyrrhic victory. Of course, what changed the situation was that Frodo was about to destroy the ring imminently, but no one could have known that.
The West wasn't doomed because it didn't die, it just sounded reasonable. They weren't right, they played into his fears and convinced him to be hopeless, the opposite of the themes of hope in the novels.
But as I said, the point is that they were sending misleading images even when true. The Black Fleet was coming. It was just coming in aid not destruction. If palantiri are phones with FaceTime their most recent update comes with a mandatory filter that lies to you.
The palantir was also instrumental to Sauron's defeat; it was because of Merry accidentally facetiming Sauron, and Aragorn intentionally facetiming him, that Sauron believed that Aragorn had the one ring, which caused him to gather his forces at the end, giving Frodo the chance to get to Mt. Doom
First of all, it was Peregrin "Pippin" (Fool of a) Took (soon to be Thane of the Shire) who facetimed Sauron. (◠‿◕)
Secondly in both those cases the palantir mislead Sauron in the same way - he saw a halfling but thought he was the Ringbearer, he saw Aragorn and thought he was the Ringbearer come to challenge him.
And all that doesn't even consider the fact that the palantir were critical pieces of defensive technology for the elves of middle earth, and the golden ages of gondor and anor, during the first two ages.
────────
I think you're leaning really heavily on this when it's definitely not the primary experience folks have with the palantiri, and when a major theme of the books is the corruption of "good" things and people. Yes they were nice once, but many things were and all ages end.
All that is to say, Palantir's founders would probably say that the item in question is an apt description of what they aim to create: a powerful tool of intelligence and surveillance that can be used for great good, and great evil.
I mean they might. Saruman also fell to pride after all. But given again the Peter Thiel of it all, and the recent manifesto, that feels like someone saying how nice the view the panopticon gives you is. The message that Tolkien seemed to be sending, IMO and the opinion of many scholars, are more along the lines of how people can be corrupted by their pride. Which also fits the company and the article.
So IMO they chose "well" but people should have maybe picked up the vibe before now.
That's like saying that a phone line is evil because a scammer gave a grandma falsehoods about the viruses on her computer. It's not like the palantir showed anyone anything of its own will - it...
That's like saying that a phone line is evil because a scammer gave a grandma falsehoods about the viruses on her computer. It's not like the palantir showed anyone anything of its own will - it doesn't have a will. It's ultimately a tool in the books - neither good, nor bad. It's a device that allows users to do specific things. If those users are good, then it's a force for good. If they're evil, then it's a force for evil.
Compare and contrast with the one ring, which is inherently evil. The ring will always twist things to favor sauron; on the other hand, the palantir as a conduit of information is just as capable of allowing Aragorn to trick Sauron as it is to allow Sauron to trick someone else.
If palantiri are phones with FaceTime their most recent update comes with a mandatory filter that lies to you.
Why? It's just the case in the books because the different wielders of the palantir are on opposite sides. Of course people are capable of lying to each other on FaceTime. It's like when scammers tell people to go to the windows registry and tell them those are all viruses - that's the black fleet (which, to be clear, I'm not even sure Sauron knew was taken over; it's not like his forces had a heads up)
I think you're leaning really heavily on this when it's definitely not the primary experience folks have with the palantiri
That's what I mean by "the movies give it a bad rap". I don't think the founders thought that way at all, regardless of what you may think about the resulting company. For further evidence, note that this isn't a pattern that continues; there's no way Anduril can be construed as an evil object, for instance.
I am not discussing the movies, just the original trilogy. This is not an issue of adaptation drift. This is where the analogy to the phone breaks down because we're talking about literary...
I am not discussing the movies, just the original trilogy. This is not an issue of adaptation drift.
This is where the analogy to the phone breaks down because we're talking about literary criticism and analysis. You're seeing the palantiri as a tool alone. I'm saying they're intentionally shown in such a way that suggests man (nor angel) should not reach for forbidden knowledge and that things and people can be corrupted which is an ongoing theme. Tolkien doesn't like divination. If Aragorn had used the palantir to scry and scout it would have mixed that metaphor, but instead he at its best uses it with the same deceit that Sauron and Saruman do. (Also didn't Osgiliath's stone have the ability to control the others... That suggests again, a nefarious purpose)
If every time a phone was used in a story, a person got bad news or a virus, or was scammed, I'd also say that the author is sending a message that phones are a negative influence and intrusion into our lives.
If you don't think that calling a company "The Flame of the West" can be interpreted negatively, especially in light of this current manifesto, or that even using Tolkien's names as part of weapon manufacturing given his beliefs and the messages in his books about war is disrespectful and evidence of someone who doesn't understand the books, I think you're focusing on the wrong thing here.
I personally think Peter Thiel is an evil man. Evil men corrupt even good things but they also pretend their evil things are good.
I don't actually think Thiel gives a damn if his companies are "good" vs if they accomplish his personal, financial and political goals. I suspect in general people didn't think too hard about the name and read it as surface level only as you're describing. It's "just" a tool, it's just a surveillance tower, it's just a drone, a gun, an investment in the right things, a job for the guy you're grooming for political office (Vance), a way to gain immortality like you're a super villain. The One Ring literally gives you immortality as part of its temptation and the elves left Middle Earth for a reason.
But as I said, anyone who thinks Tolkien would be down with some recycled white supremacist ideals barely washed as cultural superiority, really missed some memos both from his novels and his personal correspondence. The man hated Nazis, I sincerely doubt he'd appreciate the "honor" Thiel is doing.
That would be ignoring all the times the palantir were used in the simarillion and the rest of the legendarium. I don’t see any reason to ignore these. If we’re trying to analyze what message an...
That would be ignoring all the times the palantir were used in the simarillion and the rest of the legendarium. I don’t see any reason to ignore these. If we’re trying to analyze what message an author is giving, their notes and other works are perfectly valid.
Even in LotR, we have the example of Denethor using the palantir for pure reconnaissance. The Sauron calls were later.
If you don't think that calling a company "The Flame of the West"
Are we not talking about the the roles of these concepts in the story of lord of the rings?
That also segways into Tolkien himself. I wouldn’t give him that much credit - he was undoubtably against nazis, but no one was more against nazis than Churchill, and he was vigorously racist and perpetuated more than one genocidal event.
This is the same story where all the good guys are nobles of good blood lines, and are in the west, who fight against hordes of peoples from very obviously the Middle East and Africa. Where a race of colonizers are glorified, and their bloodlines exalted.
Standard 1900s British things, no doubt. But I think 1900s British men would have a lot in common with the alt-right today.
With Tolkien given how he changed his mind and never stopped editing, no his notes don't always clear things up. The Silmarillion he published, the rest is less clear and is sometimes...
That would be ignoring all the times the palantir were used in the simarillion and the rest of the legendarium. I don’t see any reason to ignore these. If we’re trying to analyze what message an author is giving, their notes and other works are perfectly valid.
With Tolkien given how he changed his mind and never stopped editing, no his notes don't always clear things up. The Silmarillion he published, the rest is less clear and is sometimes contradictory as it was a work in progress and ever edited.
My point is that we know how the palantir ended, regardless of their beginnings or intent. (And I don't think Thiel has read all the legendarium either. So as we get to his intent that matters even less)
Even in LotR, we have the example of Denethor using the palantir for pure reconnaissance. The Sauron calls were later.
He used the stone to spy on Sauron who used those connections to drive him to despair. They weren't separate "calls", they were intentional corruptions of the visions he saw in the same calls he was scrying in. Denethor had the authority as Steward to use the stone to scry but not the wisdom to refrain, Aragorn notably did not attempt to scry, just to trick Sauron into falling for a feint.
If you don't think that calling a company "The Flame of the West"
Are we not talking about the the roles of these concepts in the story of lord of the rings?
Not entirely no, we are talking about that with the palantiri, but this all rolls back into "why was the company named this and should that name have been a clue." The palantiri are widely regarded by notable Tolkien scholars to be warnings about divination, forbidden knowledge and the like. One doesn't have to agree, sure, but I'm not pulling my read on this out of nowhere either. I think anyone who names their company after them, either doesn't care about being evil or misreads the trilogy as an intentional western/white supremacist narrative.
While the shards of Narsil reforged to Anduril are not an "evil object" that doesn't erase that the company was named The Flame of the West by a man aligned with white nationalists Neo-Nazis, and the alt right. Thiel's intentions are suspect at best and even if they somehow weren't the outcome is at a minimum disrespectful of Tolkien's views on war. Suggesting again that Thiel doesn't get it. (Same with elven immortality and the other random references he makes beyond those five (a fund he calls his Precious for example))
After all...
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend".
Tolkien was very well aware of the trauma of war, and hated the glorification of violence and combat.
That also segways into Tolkien himself. I wouldn’t give him that much credit - he was undoubtably against nazis, but no one was more against nazis than Churchill, and he was vigorously racist and perpetuated more than one genocidal event.
This is the same story where all the good guys are nobles of good blood lines, and are in the west, who fight against hordes of peoples from very obviously the Middle East and Africa. Where a race of colonizers are glorified, and their bloodlines exalted.
Standard 1900s British things, no doubt. But I think 1900s British men would have a lot in common with the alt-right today.
He's not perfect, no, he's of his time and there are certainly racist themes in his books as well as nearly no women for example. Here, however, I'm talking about the man. He staunchly opposed Nazi-ism and Aryanism, the dehumanization of Jewish and Polish people by Germany and the Germans via British war propaganda alike. And this is a man who fought Germans in The Great War saying that the British had no more right to declare the Germans subhuman than the Germans did.
He did love Europe, and was writing a very English and European mythos, but even then he didn't adhere to white supremacy as a belief system. He explicitly opposed it.
For example
Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated, though of French origin, with racialist theories
And
But I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all I detest the segregation and separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White.
And even in the books, for example, he was often thoughtful about such things. Such as how it wasn't "mixing" of the Numenorean blood that diminished that people, it was existing in Middle Earth itself.
A man who hates "racialist theories" is anti race science and anti-eugenics. He absolutely had Victorian ideals taught to him and shoved in his head, and I'm sure today half the things he'd say on the subject would feel horribly backwards. And yet he still managed to make clear, intentional anti-racist stances.
I can't speak for all British men, I can't even speak for Tolkien, but I think his words speak for themselves. There's no way he would be flattered by a man who clearly misunderstands and misappropriates his work. The implication that Tolkien would be aligned with the alt-right is pretty ridiculous as they chant "Blood and Soil."
But let's leave that aside, my original point in response to you about just the palantiri themselves is that the narrative of the trilogy is how they are primarily in this age used to lie and deceive; to the point that the pride of using them leads to the fall of even great men. Aragorn describes using it as
A struggle somewhat grimmer for my part than the battle of the Hornburg
and that if he'd known how fast Sauron would respond he might not have. Even then it was a gamble. At its absolute best use.
It's not a movie read to see them this way. Even including the whole legendarium does not change how they're corrupted and lessened and are, like the elves, past their time. One, maybe, survives after and it likely would be so colored by the images it saved, I personally doubt it would be something ever used again. I doubt the Tolkien scholars I've read quoted on the matter based their opinions on the movies either.
We don't have to agree, literary analysis/criticism is full of many opinions, I just object to the idea that you can only get this perspective from outside the text and I enjoy discussing things.
*Arnor. Arthor na Forlonnas (Land of the North Harbor) was the original name. The Númenóreans began referring to it referred to it as Arnanórë (Royal Land, Quenya), but eventually commonly was...
*Arnor.
Arthor na Forlonnas (Land of the North Harbor) was the original name.
The Númenóreans began referring to it referred to it as Arnanórë (Royal Land, Quenya), but eventually commonly was known as Arnor (King's Land, Sindarin) because of Elendil's impact as founder and status of High King of the Dúnedain.
Elendil only utilized the Elostirion-stone, the palantír that faced west and only communicated with the Master-stone. This was kept in a tower on Tol Eressëa, beyond Middle Earth in the realm of Aman.
Elendil's usage of this stone, and this stone only, is seen by Tolkien scholars as the most noble figure of the Dúnedain using the palantíri as a grief ritual for what was lost in the sundering of Middle-earth from their greatest friends, and a meditation on the unknowable nature of Man's fate.
Elendil knows he'll never see Aman, and he doesn't know where he will go when he dies. But he went and gazed on it anyway, comforted by Cirdan and the Elves of Lindon.
It is the only one of the palantíri that was 'air-gapped' and not made for surveillance, as it didn't communicate with the other stones in Middle-earth.
The seven other palantíri were lost to shipwreck, war, and infighting as Men collapsed into the lesser kingdoms that gave birth to the Nine.
Their surveillance function only ever provided the illusion of security. This actively aided in the downfall of lesser kings, and fuelled conflict throughout the Second and Third Age. Their malign influence was only undone when a literal angel told Elendil's heir to sever the Orthanc stone from the network, cutting off Sauron's influence on Men through the Ithil-stone.
Put in simple terms, the inward-looking stone brought peace and comfort. The outward-looking stones only brought sorrow, madness, and delusions based on the biases of the viewer.
This is not a complex metaphor. It's just the 1930's Torment Nexus.
I'm surprised the Tolkien estate hasn't made enough of a stink about it that I'd have heard. They're usually pretty protective of J.R.R.'s IP. Like, I'm sure if some brothel in Nevada had named...
I'm surprised the Tolkien estate hasn't made enough of a stink about it that I'd have heard. They're usually pretty protective of J.R.R.'s IP. Like, I'm sure if some brothel in Nevada had named themselves "Bilbo Baggins's Love Hole," the lawyers would've come swarming out like Uruk-Hai, but a transparently evil surveillance company gets a pass for some reason.
Names aren’t copyrightable - that would be in the realm of trademark. And unlike copyright, trademark is much more flexible. That’s how Apple the technology company can have the trademark to...
Names aren’t copyrightable - that would be in the realm of trademark. And unlike copyright, trademark is much more flexible. That’s how Apple the technology company can have the trademark to Apple, while Apple Records (of Beatles fame) also has the trademark to Apple.
There’s nothing that the Tolkien estate can do about it, unless they already own a technology company called Palantir with a trademark registry.
Takes me back to conversations I had in college with people figuring out the most ethical way to work in unethical companies. If someone shows up to their job and does the bare minimum, is that...
Takes me back to conversations I had in college with people figuring out the most ethical way to work in unethical companies. If someone shows up to their job and does the bare minimum, is that theoretically better than letting someone else take the job? Or is it better to not take the job, forcing that company to pay a premium in the labor market to fill that position?
I actually was just having this conversation with my sister's boyfriend (we both work at companies where they're not particularly evil or anything, but definitely unsavory with some of the...
I actually was just having this conversation with my sister's boyfriend (we both work at companies where they're not particularly evil or anything, but definitely unsavory with some of the politics/ways money are being made). We had our own way of justifying it and at the end we pretty much just said "at least we're not working at palantir"
I worked for a corrections company that owned ankle monitors and reentry centers and I didn't love that but that was their focus, probation and parole monitoring and rehabilitation. At least in...
I worked for a corrections company that owned ankle monitors and reentry centers and I didn't love that but that was their focus, probation and parole monitoring and rehabilitation. At least in theory.
It was bought out by one of the top two Private Prison companies in the world (they wanted that sweet sweet ankle monitor technology). And I now worked for a company that was actively at cross-purposes with my beliefs (which definitely informed said beliefs and continued their leftward march.) I knew my part of the work - the reentry stuff - was mostly good - we didn't follow our policies on only working with high risk of recidivism people, and my coworkers were often racist and homophobic and sexist assholes. I was pressured to rate people higher on the risk inventory we used so we could show how much better they were after but when I said I was following the tool as I was trained they mostly backed off. So I went from "our work is good" to "my work is good" to "I'm responsible for deciding to send people back to prison..." And maybe in a few cases I could justify it. But mostly I couldn't.
I got out. Sometimes the pot boils slowly (even if that isn't how frogs actually work) and you think things are better than they are, until you learn. At least I didn't stay? At least I didn't work for Palantir....idk.
Ooh yeah dang that's definitely a difficult thing. I'm grateful my current company doesn't directly affect people in that way, only part of my company lets people financially ruin their lives (if...
Ooh yeah dang that's definitely a difficult thing. I'm grateful my current company doesn't directly affect people in that way, only part of my company lets people financially ruin their lives (if you can read between the lines about that) and I'm not directly working on that product thankfully.
Overall though it's definitely hard in the world of capitalism. I'm glad you got out though and from what I've seen from your comments you seem to be doing more cool things for students so I think that's a net positive! I'm constantly looking out for jobs but it seems my skillset always ends up in companies with unsavory ideals for some reason.
The public and not for profit sectors aren't always good but I am very happy for the work I get to do now with the people I work with. And while there are definitely ethical quandries or...
The public and not for profit sectors aren't always good but I am very happy for the work I get to do now with the people I work with. And while there are definitely ethical quandries or disagreements with policy from time to time it's not the soul destroying drain that my previous job was.
I hope you find your thing that lets you fill your cup
I mean “But maybe it's gotten to a place where encouraging independent thought and questioning leads to some bad conclusions.” kinda sums it up right? Tech workers have for a long time considered...
I mean “But maybe it's gotten to a place where encouraging independent thought and questioning leads to some bad conclusions.” kinda sums it up right?
Tech workers have for a long time considered themselves above any type of broader thought. (Personally, I think there was a naive libertarian posturing masquerading as ethical sophistication.) Now that the shiny has worn of off the tech industry and workers are being treated like the plebs, more people are starting to consider their role in making the current dysfunctional hellscape that is the modern world. It sucks no one wanted to listen to critiques from the disenfranchized as long as there was a DEI page on the intranet, but I'll take late over never.
Tech workers are extremely left wing by any measure though. While the libertarian tech bros get a lot of media attention, they're not even close to a majority.
Tech workers are extremely left wing by any measure though. While the libertarian tech bros get a lot of media attention, they're not even close to a majority.
Everyone there should read this, even if I
thinkknow it wouldn't change anythinghttps://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i-work-for-an-evil-company-but-outside-work-im-actually-a-really-good-person
Sometimes I read a few McSweeney's articles when I want to feel like I jumped into a big vat of snarky sarcasm.
The answer is yes.
Sometimes you're in the uniform with the skulls on it before you realize I suppose.
It's baffling to me that they even went with the name Palantir. It's specific enough that someone had to know what the name represents.
It wouldn't be the first time that some "Western culture" supremacists have tried to appropriate Tolkien's work. He didn't take kindly to it then either.
Not that it particularly makes the company more or less evil, but palantir aren’t evil in LoTR. That’s more of a movie impression because they had to compress and remove some scenes down.
The palantir are essentially super telescopes + FaceTime. It’s just that all the scenes in the movie that were kept was the times people FaceTimed satan.
Well it's not just the movie, it's that by the third age the palantiri that are around begin in Sauron, Saruman, and Denethor's hands and were used to drive Denethor mad with despair. They're pretty much only showing misleading visions in the trilogy, a feint by Aragorn, Pippin being the Ringbearer, the Black Fleet approaching Gondor.
Their use is compared by scholars to WWII propaganda, the follies of fortune telling, the seeking of God-like (Eru Iluvatar-like) knowledge by man (or well, angel). They're not evil in origin but put almost entirely to evil use. Aragorn uses it to provoke Sauron but not to try to gain his own knowledge.
So yeah, not a movie myth. Even in the books, the idea that you could create a Palantir and only use it for good is like Boromir wanting to keep the ring. Hubris and naiveté, at best. Malicious, selfish, controlling, and domineering at worst.
ETA given that it's Peter Thiel and he's named/backed FIVE companies after Tolkien references, and is a big fan, I think he just thinks it's some
white"Western" supremacist narrative. The others are Anduril, Mithril, Rivendell, and Elven Immortality.2nd edit: autocorrect is getting worse, I think I caught all the weird typos
That's selling Denethor short. He was actually very successfully using his palantir as a scouting tool to defend Gondor, and it's likely that if he had not done that, the situation on the border would have been far worse by the time of the book's events.
Not to mention that Sauron actually so feared Denethor's mental strength that he refused to let any of his subordinates use his palantir, because he feared they would get dominated by Denethor. Nor could he dominate Denethor. Denethor therefore also blocked Sauron's minions from using what is an invaluable recon tool in an age without satelites.
Even when he was "tricked" - he really wasn't. Sauron and Denethor were right; the west was doomed. Even with a victory at pelenor fields, there was zero chance for the west to win as is. It was the definition of pyrrhic victory. Of course, what changed the situation was that Frodo was about to destroy the ring imminently, but no one could have known that.
The palantir was also instrumental to Sauron's defeat; it was because of Merry accidentally facetiming Sauron, and Aragorn intentionally facetiming him, that Sauron believed that Aragorn had the one ring, which caused him to gather his forces at the end, giving Frodo the chance to get to Mt. Doom
And all that doesn't even consider the fact that the palantir were critical pieces of defensive technology for the elves of middle earth, and the golden ages of gondor and anor, during the first two ages.
All that is to say, Palantir's founders would probably say that the item in question is an apt description of what they aim to create: a powerful tool of intelligence and surveillance that can be used for great good, and great evil.
And much like the palantir in the books, even if made with noble intentions the end result is a device used for evil.
Ok sure say what took me much longer to say much more succinctly ಠ_ʖಠ
⊹₊⟡⋆
The last thing the Palantir did was save the world, though.
I'm really talking about the trilogy, not the legendarium. Since that is what most people have read and where the outcomes of everything else play out.
Denthor did do well, and then he failed out of pride, grief and ultimately despair, fed by Sauron. Denethor considered Aragorn a rival, not his true king which given the rules of this world, is another failure of his pride.
Giving him credit for Sauron's actions feels a stretch to me. But regardless, overtime the Palantir was the means of wearing down his mental strength. Much like the One Ring, even if you could use it for good for a while or intend good... Even the strongest of men will fail.
The West wasn't doomed because it didn't die, it just sounded reasonable. They weren't right, they played into his fears and convinced him to be hopeless, the opposite of the themes of hope in the novels.
But as I said, the point is that they were sending misleading images even when true. The Black Fleet was coming. It was just coming in aid not destruction. If palantiri are phones with FaceTime their most recent update comes with a mandatory filter that lies to you.
First of all, it was Peregrin "Pippin" (Fool of a) Took (soon to be Thane of the Shire) who facetimed Sauron. (◠‿◕)
Secondly in both those cases the palantir mislead Sauron in the same way - he saw a halfling but thought he was the Ringbearer, he saw Aragorn and thought he was the Ringbearer come to challenge him.
I think you're leaning really heavily on this when it's definitely not the primary experience folks have with the palantiri, and when a major theme of the books is the corruption of "good" things and people. Yes they were nice once, but many things were and all ages end.
I mean they might. Saruman also fell to pride after all. But given again the Peter Thiel of it all, and the recent manifesto, that feels like someone saying how nice the view the panopticon gives you is. The message that Tolkien seemed to be sending, IMO and the opinion of many scholars, are more along the lines of how people can be corrupted by their pride. Which also fits the company and the article.
So IMO they chose "well" but people should have maybe picked up the vibe before now.
That's like saying that a phone line is evil because a scammer gave a grandma falsehoods about the viruses on her computer. It's not like the palantir showed anyone anything of its own will - it doesn't have a will. It's ultimately a tool in the books - neither good, nor bad. It's a device that allows users to do specific things. If those users are good, then it's a force for good. If they're evil, then it's a force for evil.
Compare and contrast with the one ring, which is inherently evil. The ring will always twist things to favor sauron; on the other hand, the palantir as a conduit of information is just as capable of allowing Aragorn to trick Sauron as it is to allow Sauron to trick someone else.
Why? It's just the case in the books because the different wielders of the palantir are on opposite sides. Of course people are capable of lying to each other on FaceTime. It's like when scammers tell people to go to the windows registry and tell them those are all viruses - that's the black fleet (which, to be clear, I'm not even sure Sauron knew was taken over; it's not like his forces had a heads up)
That's what I mean by "the movies give it a bad rap". I don't think the founders thought that way at all, regardless of what you may think about the resulting company. For further evidence, note that this isn't a pattern that continues; there's no way Anduril can be construed as an evil object, for instance.
I am not discussing the movies, just the original trilogy. This is not an issue of adaptation drift.
This is where the analogy to the phone breaks down because we're talking about literary criticism and analysis. You're seeing the palantiri as a tool alone. I'm saying they're intentionally shown in such a way that suggests man (nor angel) should not reach for forbidden knowledge and that things and people can be corrupted which is an ongoing theme. Tolkien doesn't like divination. If Aragorn had used the palantir to scry and scout it would have mixed that metaphor, but instead he at its best uses it with the same deceit that Sauron and Saruman do. (Also didn't Osgiliath's stone have the ability to control the others... That suggests again, a nefarious purpose)
If every time a phone was used in a story, a person got bad news or a virus, or was scammed, I'd also say that the author is sending a message that phones are a negative influence and intrusion into our lives.
If you don't think that calling a company "The Flame of the West" can be interpreted negatively, especially in light of this current manifesto, or that even using Tolkien's names as part of weapon manufacturing given his beliefs and the messages in his books about war is disrespectful and evidence of someone who doesn't understand the books, I think you're focusing on the wrong thing here.
I personally think Peter Thiel is an evil man. Evil men corrupt even good things but they also pretend their evil things are good.
I don't actually think Thiel gives a damn if his companies are "good" vs if they accomplish his personal, financial and political goals. I suspect in general people didn't think too hard about the name and read it as surface level only as you're describing. It's "just" a tool, it's just a surveillance tower, it's just a drone, a gun, an investment in the right things, a job for the guy you're grooming for political office (Vance), a way to gain immortality like you're a super villain. The One Ring literally gives you immortality as part of its temptation and the elves left Middle Earth for a reason.
But as I said, anyone who thinks Tolkien would be down with some recycled white supremacist ideals barely washed as cultural superiority, really missed some memos both from his novels and his personal correspondence. The man hated Nazis, I sincerely doubt he'd appreciate the "honor" Thiel is doing.
That would be ignoring all the times the palantir were used in the simarillion and the rest of the legendarium. I don’t see any reason to ignore these. If we’re trying to analyze what message an author is giving, their notes and other works are perfectly valid.
Even in LotR, we have the example of Denethor using the palantir for pure reconnaissance. The Sauron calls were later.
Are we not talking about the the roles of these concepts in the story of lord of the rings?
That also segways into Tolkien himself. I wouldn’t give him that much credit - he was undoubtably against nazis, but no one was more against nazis than Churchill, and he was vigorously racist and perpetuated more than one genocidal event.
This is the same story where all the good guys are nobles of good blood lines, and are in the west, who fight against hordes of peoples from very obviously the Middle East and Africa. Where a race of colonizers are glorified, and their bloodlines exalted.
Standard 1900s British things, no doubt. But I think 1900s British men would have a lot in common with the alt-right today.
With Tolkien given how he changed his mind and never stopped editing, no his notes don't always clear things up. The Silmarillion he published, the rest is less clear and is sometimes contradictory as it was a work in progress and ever edited.
My point is that we know how the palantir ended, regardless of their beginnings or intent. (And I don't think Thiel has read all the legendarium either. So as we get to his intent that matters even less)
He used the stone to spy on Sauron who used those connections to drive him to despair. They weren't separate "calls", they were intentional corruptions of the visions he saw in the same calls he was scrying in. Denethor had the authority as Steward to use the stone to scry but not the wisdom to refrain, Aragorn notably did not attempt to scry, just to trick Sauron into falling for a feint.
Not entirely no, we are talking about that with the palantiri, but this all rolls back into "why was the company named this and should that name have been a clue." The palantiri are widely regarded by notable Tolkien scholars to be warnings about divination, forbidden knowledge and the like. One doesn't have to agree, sure, but I'm not pulling my read on this out of nowhere either. I think anyone who names their company after them, either doesn't care about being evil or misreads the trilogy as an intentional western/white supremacist narrative.
While the shards of Narsil reforged to Anduril are not an "evil object" that doesn't erase that the company was named The Flame of the West by a man aligned with white nationalists Neo-Nazis, and the alt right. Thiel's intentions are suspect at best and even if they somehow weren't the outcome is at a minimum disrespectful of Tolkien's views on war. Suggesting again that Thiel doesn't get it. (Same with elven immortality and the other random references he makes beyond those five (a fund he calls his Precious for example))
After all...
Tolkien was very well aware of the trauma of war, and hated the glorification of violence and combat.
He's not perfect, no, he's of his time and there are certainly racist themes in his books as well as nearly no women for example. Here, however, I'm talking about the man. He staunchly opposed Nazi-ism and Aryanism, the dehumanization of Jewish and Polish people by Germany and the Germans via British war propaganda alike. And this is a man who fought Germans in The Great War saying that the British had no more right to declare the Germans subhuman than the Germans did.
He did love Europe, and was writing a very English and European mythos, but even then he didn't adhere to white supremacy as a belief system. He explicitly opposed it.
For example
And
And even in the books, for example, he was often thoughtful about such things. Such as how it wasn't "mixing" of the Numenorean blood that diminished that people, it was existing in Middle Earth itself.
A man who hates "racialist theories" is anti race science and anti-eugenics. He absolutely had Victorian ideals taught to him and shoved in his head, and I'm sure today half the things he'd say on the subject would feel horribly backwards. And yet he still managed to make clear, intentional anti-racist stances.
I can't speak for all British men, I can't even speak for Tolkien, but I think his words speak for themselves. There's no way he would be flattered by a man who clearly misunderstands and misappropriates his work. The implication that Tolkien would be aligned with the alt-right is pretty ridiculous as they chant "Blood and Soil."
But let's leave that aside, my original point in response to you about just the palantiri themselves is that the narrative of the trilogy is how they are primarily in this age used to lie and deceive; to the point that the pride of using them leads to the fall of even great men. Aragorn describes using it as
and that if he'd known how fast Sauron would respond he might not have. Even then it was a gamble. At its absolute best use.
It's not a movie read to see them this way. Even including the whole legendarium does not change how they're corrupted and lessened and are, like the elves, past their time. One, maybe, survives after and it likely would be so colored by the images it saved, I personally doubt it would be something ever used again. I doubt the Tolkien scholars I've read quoted on the matter based their opinions on the movies either.
We don't have to agree, literary analysis/criticism is full of many opinions, I just object to the idea that you can only get this perspective from outside the text and I enjoy discussing things.
*Arnor.
Arthor na Forlonnas (Land of the North Harbor) was the original name.
The Númenóreans began referring to it referred to it as Arnanórë (Royal Land, Quenya), but eventually commonly was known as Arnor (King's Land, Sindarin) because of Elendil's impact as founder and status of High King of the Dúnedain.
Elendil only utilized the Elostirion-stone, the palantír that faced west and only communicated with the Master-stone. This was kept in a tower on Tol Eressëa, beyond Middle Earth in the realm of Aman.
Elendil's usage of this stone, and this stone only, is seen by Tolkien scholars as the most noble figure of the Dúnedain using the palantíri as a grief ritual for what was lost in the sundering of Middle-earth from their greatest friends, and a meditation on the unknowable nature of Man's fate.
Elendil knows he'll never see Aman, and he doesn't know where he will go when he dies. But he went and gazed on it anyway, comforted by Cirdan and the Elves of Lindon.
It is the only one of the palantíri that was 'air-gapped' and not made for surveillance, as it didn't communicate with the other stones in Middle-earth.
The seven other palantíri were lost to shipwreck, war, and infighting as Men collapsed into the lesser kingdoms that gave birth to the Nine.
Their surveillance function only ever provided the illusion of security. This actively aided in the downfall of lesser kings, and fuelled conflict throughout the Second and Third Age. Their malign influence was only undone when a literal angel told Elendil's heir to sever the Orthanc stone from the network, cutting off Sauron's influence on Men through the Ithil-stone.
Put in simple terms, the inward-looking stone brought peace and comfort. The outward-looking stones only brought sorrow, madness, and delusions based on the biases of the viewer.
This is not a complex metaphor. It's just the 1930's Torment Nexus.
I'm surprised the Tolkien estate hasn't made enough of a stink about it that I'd have heard. They're usually pretty protective of J.R.R.'s IP. Like, I'm sure if some brothel in Nevada had named themselves "Bilbo Baggins's Love Hole," the lawyers would've come swarming out like Uruk-Hai, but a transparently evil surveillance company gets a pass for some reason.
Names aren’t copyrightable - that would be in the realm of trademark. And unlike copyright, trademark is much more flexible. That’s how Apple the technology company can have the trademark to Apple, while Apple Records (of Beatles fame) also has the trademark to Apple.
There’s nothing that the Tolkien estate can do about it, unless they already own a technology company called Palantir with a trademark registry.
Takes me back to conversations I had in college with people figuring out the most ethical way to work in unethical companies. If someone shows up to their job and does the bare minimum, is that theoretically better than letting someone else take the job? Or is it better to not take the job, forcing that company to pay a premium in the labor market to fill that position?
I actually was just having this conversation with my sister's boyfriend (we both work at companies where they're not particularly evil or anything, but definitely unsavory with some of the politics/ways money are being made). We had our own way of justifying it and at the end we pretty much just said "at least we're not working at palantir"
I worked for a corrections company that owned ankle monitors and reentry centers and I didn't love that but that was their focus, probation and parole monitoring and rehabilitation. At least in theory.
It was bought out by one of the top two Private Prison companies in the world (they wanted that sweet sweet ankle monitor technology). And I now worked for a company that was actively at cross-purposes with my beliefs (which definitely informed said beliefs and continued their leftward march.) I knew my part of the work - the reentry stuff - was mostly good - we didn't follow our policies on only working with high risk of recidivism people, and my coworkers were often racist and homophobic and sexist assholes. I was pressured to rate people higher on the risk inventory we used so we could show how much better they were after but when I said I was following the tool as I was trained they mostly backed off. So I went from "our work is good" to "my work is good" to "I'm responsible for deciding to send people back to prison..." And maybe in a few cases I could justify it. But mostly I couldn't.
I got out. Sometimes the pot boils slowly (even if that isn't how frogs actually work) and you think things are better than they are, until you learn. At least I didn't stay? At least I didn't work for Palantir....idk.
Ooh yeah dang that's definitely a difficult thing. I'm grateful my current company doesn't directly affect people in that way, only part of my company lets people financially ruin their lives (if you can read between the lines about that) and I'm not directly working on that product thankfully.
Overall though it's definitely hard in the world of capitalism. I'm glad you got out though and from what I've seen from your comments you seem to be doing more cool things for students so I think that's a net positive! I'm constantly looking out for jobs but it seems my skillset always ends up in companies with unsavory ideals for some reason.
The public and not for profit sectors aren't always good but I am very happy for the work I get to do now with the people I work with. And while there are definitely ethical quandries or disagreements with policy from time to time it's not the soul destroying drain that my previous job was.
I hope you find your thing that lets you fill your cup
I mean “But maybe it's gotten to a place where encouraging independent thought and questioning leads to some bad conclusions.” kinda sums it up right?
Tech workers have for a long time considered themselves above any type of broader thought. (Personally, I think there was a naive libertarian posturing masquerading as ethical sophistication.) Now that the shiny has worn of off the tech industry and workers are being treated like the plebs, more people are starting to consider their role in making the current dysfunctional hellscape that is the modern world. It sucks no one wanted to listen to critiques from the disenfranchized as long as there was a DEI page on the intranet, but I'll take late over never.
It's hard to give up privileges for your beliefs.
Tech workers are extremely left wing by any measure though. While the libertarian tech bros get a lot of media attention, they're not even close to a majority.