Self harm, short sleeves, and trigger warnings. What is fair?
Yesterday someone on /r/lgbt posted this picture of themself at a pride event, and several people in the thread commented on OP's self harm scars - one asking them to please and thank you spoiler tag the image and post a trigger warning as they found the sight of OP's self harm scars triggering.
As someone who has very similar scars as OP I said fuck that, I disagree. I found it offensive that the sight of someone else's scars somehow grants you the right and allows you to tell them to cover up or hide themself because they find it triggering. To ask to have trigger warnings and spoiler tags added is unfair, in my opinion - the commenter then replied that it's not that hard to do. But for me it's obviously not about the effort it takes to do it, it's about the fundamental principle of asking someone to cover up or hide their body that I take issue with.
OP said elsewhere that they have struggled with mental health in the past but moved on, and clearly they are now at the point that they feel comfortable or don't mind that other people can see their scars. And I certainly feel like they should be allowed to wear whatever they like. I think that showing scars like this is 1) brave, 2) helps reduce stigma surrounding self harm, and 3) should be entirely that person's prerogative - their body, their choice.
So I am curious what you all think about this?
Is it fair to expect or ask someone to tag their picture like this, to hide their scars, to cover up, etc.?
Ultimately, we are (almost) all just strangers on the internet. From the context provided, it did not seem like the original post was specifically highlighting their scars. With that in mind, it's situationally identical to seeing some stranger in a public place and asking them to cover up. In that situation, if it bothered you, you would likely just look away and move on. I'm not sure why that wouldn't also be the appropriate response here.
Without assigning merit to your stance, (which is to say, I agree with you) I think a practical difference between the two scenarios is that it's reasonably doable to attach TWs to a post online, while one can not attach a TW to themselves in meatspace and/or hide their skin behind a spoiler tag.
I would suggest that a problem with that is that it's then on the poster to attach a TW and/or spoiler to every single post they ever make where their scars are visible, which I'm not sure is fair.
I think the middle ground would be attach a TW/Spoiler if the post is about the scars as that is what discussion would be around and people can choose to avoid it if they wish.
That's fair. I was more thinking about asking someone to put on a shawl or jacket in a public place. Something akin to the reaction that some people have to someone wearing skimpier clothes than expected in a public place.
I guess the distinction I'm going for is that in online spaces you can make viewing your scars optional - you can advise viewer's discretion. Via TWs and spoiler tags. You are in a way not covering up your body, but rather only conditionally inviting others to view it, that condition being the trigger.
In meatspace, you either cover up, or you don't. There is no reasonable TW, no way to have it both ways. I guess that's where people are coming from when they demand the things OP described. I guess I can see a coherent argument that covering up in public is asking too much, while TWs online are appropriate.
And just to reaffirm, I don't agree with that. TWs and spoiler tags means that you are after all hiding your SFW body in a capacity, and that's just not nice to demand. Nevermind the shame.
I agree wholeheartedly with you, and think that you analogy is spot on.
I feel it would be similar to walking up to a stranger on the street and asking them to put on a long sleeve shirt. But you probably wouldn't do that in real life - although I have to say that there are a lot of such stories on self harm subs, but everyone there agrees that it is, at best, rude
My knee jerk answer is that no, it's not fair to ask anyone to cover scars acquired for any reason. Yes, scars acquired through self-harm may have characteristic patterns, but life is a contact sport.
Given enough time, we all gain marks of wear and tear, whether by accident, age, medical intervention, or deep trauma. To turn away from the genuine indicia of others' lives is a measure of the healing we need to do, not those bearing the scars.
Also, the price of a culture that prizes beauty and flawlessness is unsustainable for most. Treating scars as "triggering" is just another guise for ableism and ageism, letting the fears of inevitable personal decline and death prevent compassion for ourselves and others.
Full disclosure: I and others in my circle of loved ones and acquaintances have collected quite a few scars - some surgical for illness or accident, some signs of age, some medical gender transition, some self-harm. Some of us have had cosmetic surgery for remediation, some of us want cosmetic surgery but can't afford it, some scars can't be remedied. Some scarred warriors of life just don't care and are more beautiful for that unconcerned self-assurance. Some folks cover up out of embarrassment, but others wear their "wisdom marks" proudly.
As you suggest, the choice of whether or not to display scars is a matter of bodily autonomy. I don't mean to diminish the suffering of those who find self-harm scars triggering, but I don't condone their demand for others to pretend they're "normal". Would they demand that people who have skin colors they find threatening conceal or cover up?
I don’t disagree with anything you said. That being said, I think requests for trigger warnings are almost always more about the person requesting than the content in question. In this specific case the charitable interpretation is that the requester has their own relationship to self harm and seeing (for example) scars in a place they didn’t expect to, potentially even a place they view as a ‘safe space’ was surprising and unsettling to them. I could see why someone might ask for trigger warnings in such a case, even if it is actually not the best thing for either the requester or the requested. Maybe this interpretation isn’t accurate and they were truly asking because they find self harm uncomfortable to think or talk about. I’d have less (read: no) sympathy for the request in that case. Without other context I’d default to the charitable interpretation.
To reiterate though, even if the request was understandable, I don’t think people with self harm scars somehow have a responsibility to hide them or warn others about them, and certainly don’t have an obligation to tag photos of themselves as triggering especially if the scars are not at all the main focus. All that would do is serve to more or less reduce the person to their scars and make every photo about them.
I think it's a step too far to demand another cover their scars, especially if they're from identifiable behavior from one suffering from or aware of the same issue. All it does, from my perspective, is drag them back into whatever hole caused the self-harm. A majorn issue with self harm and nervous picking is actually an initial infliction/harm, shame over the lack of control, and shame at the damage done which perpetuates the cycle and I think that anybody with the consciousness and awareness to, for example, call out one's scars as "triggering" has a responsibility to try to avoid perpetuating that cycle in the individual they're describing, as well as a responsibility to aid in destigmatizing a history of self-harm if they truly wanted to help. And that is as simple as letting the history be normalized. It's a long way of saying "kindness is free."
That is definitely thoughts I have fought with myself. Not something I could really put in to words though, I guess. Perhaps that is part of why I was offended - that being told to tag/hide scars feels like I'm being shamed?
I think first and foremost we have a responsibility to moderate ourselves. If I see something that is offensive to my sensibilities, or triggering to any sort of trauma, it is my job to understand why it affects me. This is how we grow as people, and generally a major part of what therapy is about. However it is also an incredibly difficult practice to cultivate.
In the person who made the comment, I would suspect they aren't considering this, and only considering their needs. This happens in a lot of spaces where things like anxiety, trauma, and self-harm are a thing, even if it's a small amount of the behavior on display because we are all, generally, also trying to protect ourselves and any we see as similar to ourselves.
They are unreasonable, if mildly justified, in the request. However, I would also say that they specifically have a responsibility to consider the meaning of the request and not make it in the first place. The appearance of self-harm scars is uncomfortable for a whole host of reasons, and directly confronting their presence is also the only way to normalize and destigmatize these issues.
I'm not trying to wax philosphical for its own sake here. I'm also trying to phrase this in a way that wouldn't be offensive should the one person suggesting OP should've covered their scars should see this.
I came to the comments to share exactly this! It's counterintuitive, and people swear by them, but I think the evidence is pretty clear. The question I have then is, can we make something better?
Some websites just have keyword blocklists (e.g blood) and you apply or attribute keywords to your own posts or to other people's posts. Instead of content warnings on a post, "Look at my cute new rescue pup (blood)" you just see nothing, and maybe a little asterisk in the corner "3 posts were blocked because of your blocklists settings"
This works great for me and I don't even really think about it
I absolutely agree with you, in the sense that those scars are (for better or for worse) part of the Reddit OP’s person. Going further, the fact that those scars still exist is proof that the Reddit OP survived this traumatic period and is now thriving.
To me then, telling anyone to cover up such an intrinsic part of themselves (especially for strangers online) is definitely wrong.
However in a different direction, I think some trigger warnings are okay, for instance gore, death and so forth. Mostly because these are not warning people about real human characteristics. Open to having my mind changed though!
I think that's why this discussion/concept is so interesting to me.
Because it's going to be hard for everyone to agree on where to draw the line: In Iran, women are imprisoned (or worse) for not covering up their hair in public; In Rome, you are not allowed in churches without covering up your shoulders; In other countries, the line is drawn at going topless; In yet other countries, full nudity is fully legal.
Anyway, yeah, I think most people agree on warnings for your examples. But perhaps some people would consider self-harm scars to be gore. So you will never be able to appease everyone at the same time about where the line is drawn about.
I think self-harm scars fall on an axis where it very much depends on context and whether they're centered in thr image. But yeah it's definitely impossible to draw a clean line, there's too many factors and different beliefs in the mix.
Agreed. Trigger warnings are often helpful, but asking someone to provide TWs for who they are is just erasure. That's not okay.
Okay, I'm a little of a different opinion in that I can see where the commenters are coming from. First of all, when I use the word "trigger", I'm using the psychological term - meaning something that will cause someone to fall back on extreme or distressing habits/coping mechanisms. I'm not referring to the pop-usage of it: the one that means to illicit an (usually negative) emotion. It's the difference between me avoiding horror because it will "trigger" a feeling of uncomfortability when walking in the bathroom and me avoiding horror because it will trigger an entire month of extreme insomnia.
I'm aware that not every person who sh will have this experience, and me personally I don't sh in that way so a lot of what I'm saying will be based off of what I know from others' stories. But most of the time, sh - especially for those who aren't seeking any help or treatment for their sh - will feel more like a temptation rather than an active choice, so for some, seeing someone with scars is a reminder and thus, a trigger, for temptation. I remember meeting a few people who never recovered from sh, and I feel like those are the most susceptible to notice triggers that most people wouldn't see at first glance.
Of course, not everyone who has sh will identify that as a trigger, and I've met a lot of people who have experienced sh who are way more okay with sh scars than the average person. I'm trying to say, I've met my fair share of people who are the complete opposite as well, and I feel like there's a few comments here that aren't acknowledging that their experiences aren't the universal ones. Cause, no, I don't think some of the comments were trying to attribute shame onto a body, but rather it was easier for them to notice, easier for them to trigger past temptations, and not knowing how else to handle that kind of situation and noticing that OP has a degree of control that they don't (being able to spoiler or TW the post), told them that they should have used their control-of-the-situation to prevent something they don't have control over. (Not sure if I made any sense so if so, just let me know and I can clear it up)
Is it wrong? To me it is. Is it justifiable? To me it is. Honestly I feel like my stance on it is in this "I can't forgive your actions, but I can forgive you as a person" kind of situation. Cause, yes just like most other people who deal with triggers, you can't avoid them all, especially when it comes to someone else's body, just like @pathie states. I'm with everyone else on this in that there shouldn't be any shame around someone's body, no matter what is being shown or not shown, and by saying to put a spoiler or TW on a body it means that said body is shameful to look at. It's different than having a trigger be an action, where said action can be avoided or negotiated, but you can't avoid or negotiate someone's body.
But at the same time, I do get where people are coming from, and I do recognize that most of society kind of just tells people with triggers "just deal with it" instead of understanding there's this abundant lack of resources (thanks US healthcare) and that sometimes healthy coping mechanisms don't actually work. There's this message in society that if the recovery methods don't work then we're too far gone to really deal with. And for that, I don't know the answer. I don't sh that way. All I can do is sympathize and hope time adjusts them to a way that works.
And lastly, I also acknowledge that, a good handful of them - probably more than a good handful honestly - just saw it was hurting a few people and jumped to speak for them. r/ lgbt always felt very young, very new to activism, and more into doing the right thing rather than listening for the right thing. So I won't be surprised if most of the criticism were coming from these unwarranted commenters who weren't even affected in the first place. For those, yeah no please kindly fuck off and pretend you never saw them in the first place (which is the respectable thing to do when you see scars irl.)
So I'm a person with a history of self harm and have a very different view I'd like to share.
Please note my own feelings are vastly simplified here.
When I see a person with self harm scars not covering them up or hiding behind a trigger warning they often portray an image that they have moved past the problems that caused them and they are not ashamed. It shows that firstly other people also share the same difficulties and experiences, it gives doubt to my belief that I am 'broken' or undeserving of life for doing it because I don't see this other person as broken or undeserving of life for having done the same thing. It also shows that if other people are not ashamed then maybe it's not a shameful thing. And if the picture shows someone doing well with healed scars it suggests they were able to move past their problems, seeing evidence of people moving past these problems is significantly more powerful to me than people telling me it's possible who haven't lived through it.
Conversely, when I see a trigger warning for self harm scars or people asking for one it causes the opposite - it makes me feel that self harm scars are something I should be ashamed of and confirms that they indicate a person with such scars is broken person (because that part of my brain can't reconcile with there being any other reason it would need to be hidden away). These feelings make me feel more of an urge to self harm because they activate the part of my brain that drives those urges.
I think it's a complex issue, if for some people a trigger warning is helpful, but for others it's actively harmful. I find it hard to understand how it can be helpful, because you can't deliver the warning without saying what the content is. For me words about self harm are more likely to drive urges than seeing pictures (words triggers memories of myself carrying out self harm, an image or someone else is an image of someone else so the focus is on them, not me). Even writing this is making me feel urges but I'm a lot better now at resisting them, particularly if feelings of shame are not triggered.
I think context is important in these cases. The reason behind scars can be meaningful, but what the picture is highlighting is important. Someone who just had a miscarriage might be triggered by stretch marks, but it's not fair to as anyone who has been pregnant and gotten stretchmarks to hide them. Nor is it fair to make them think of those stretchmarks every time they post a picture where they might be visible. It is a part of someone's body, even a part of their identity.
If I was posting a picture just of those scars, highlighting those scars, or posting with an implement to make those scars, that's a different thing. But it's just a body. Eating disorders are easily triggered too, but a thin person should also not have to TW their body, unless again, they're deliberately posting a body check with the intention to highlight being thin or emaciated.
Part of what it comes down to is that I don't think a person should force me to be triggered by focusing in on something that might make me insecure or send me spiraling so that they don't have to look at me and possibly be triggered. They can look away, but I'm stuck with me.
Yeah this is a good point. I can totally understand how self-harm scars may be triggering to see, but it's a disproportionate burden to expect someone with said scars to tag any picture in which their arms might be visible even in which the arms aren't the focus. This seems like an issue of conflicting needs, which I think is something that progressive communities are still figuring out how to negotiate.
Not just progressive communities. Talks like this have been going on for a very long time. I use to browse mental health forums and sometimes I'd come across a post talking about conversations similar to this one as far back as early 2000's. The talk about others taking responsibility for triggers is newer, since the idea that something can be a trigger only hit mainstream consciousness pretty recently.
That being said, yeah it's conflicting needs for me. Cause I can also understand how sh scars are triggering to see, but at the same time policing someone's body is usually shorthand for shaming a part of the body, and that's not a road I want anyone to cross. I feel like the only answer is better resources for those who do see scars as a trigger, but that goes into the politics of healthcare and how our healthcare system treats people who sh, so it depends on you if that's off-topic or not
Don't know what to say really. I can't imagine my first reaction when seeing those scars to be other than compassion, i would never in a million years tell them to cover them or hide them in any way when they've clearly fought an hard battle to gain back the confidence to show their arms in public again. If anything i would praise them.
On the other hand i've never really self harmed so i don't know how bad of a trigger seeing someone else's scars is. But even then, it would be a me problem, i definitely wouldn't see myself putting others down.
Personally I don't like trigger warnings and don't support their use or widespread advocacy, I understand people have trauma and I myself have trauma. I have a tattoo on my left wrist that serves as a reminder that I should keep living that I got after a particularly bad period of suicidal ideation. That said trigger warnings and hiding from the things that drive me to want to do something foolish aren't going to heal me or anybody else. We need to expose ourselves in safe ways to things that cause a trauma response. One of the ways I'm doing that is by being more vulnerable in my posting in places like Tildes where I feel safe. I have had bad experiences with opening up and being hurt, to the point that IRL I don't really speak to anybody about my feelings for fear of being hurt. By opening up online a bit, it's still a risk but in the worst case I can burn the account and leave if I need to and if all goes well I'll hopefully be more comfortable opening up more IRL. If I avoid it online and IRL I'll never truly heal. Seeing images and discussions around the subject of suicide also concretes the reality of it in my mind, yes its upsetting for me and it reminds me of the times I've considered it but it reminds me how it would only hurt those I care for, how it doesn't fix anything but only makes it worse for the people I love most and how it ultimately would be a shitty thing to do to them, leaving them feeling guilty and missing a piece of them. It can be hard to remember that at times and it often feels like they'd be better off but they wouldn't be. Seeing the topic discussed reminds me of that and that's important even if the topic makes me extremely uncomfortable, in fact I think one of the reasons it's uncomfortable is because it reminds me of that. That I could have made a terrible decision and one that I'd never be able to correct.
Just my 2c as somebody who has their own battle with the black dog.
I feel exactly the same but I think you've explained it better than I could!
I am nervous about sharing my experiences even on here, in the past I used to use a throwaway but I'm trying to move past that here because my battles with mental health are still part of who I am and I don't think it' s helpful to live in a society where we pretend that every human being has not gone through struggles.
I enjoyed your perspective on the need to face discussions to truly heal.
Thank you for raising this.
It's really tricky.
I don't like trigger warnings, I don't think they're effective to protect people against harm. I do try to use them, especially for the big stuff where they're more likely to be useful to help people prepare.
But when applied to self harm scars we're saying "you, as a person, are triggering, and you will always be triggering, and you should hide yourself to make me feel comfortable". And that does not feel right.
I can understand the need to not have images or videos of people during a self harm event, or of blood, or of fresh wounds. I feel there's a difference there because we're saying "self harm is triggering", we're not saying the person is triggering. There's some evidence that seeing recent self harm is contagious.
On Tildes it might be polite to include a tag that says [self harm] I guess, just so that people who have a strong response to it can filter it out, but I wouldn't criticise people who decide not to do that.
I do have self harm scars and the only time I make a choice to cover them is if I'm going to visit my child's school, which is a couple of times a year. But the rest of the time I don't care whether they're on show or not. (But I acknowledge privilege - I'm a straight, cis-gender man and no-one cares what I look like.)
I think it's fair to ask, but I think its important to understand that the person has the right to say no as well. Yes we need to be open to other peoples feelings and accommodating in anyway we can be, but it goes both ways. It's like yelling "don't tell me what to do!" and "don't do that because I don't like it!" in the same breath. There is too much of that in this world today.
I don't know that a spoiler tag is the best option, either. Maybe if a decent number of users feel triggered by something like that then implementing a trigger tag of some sort might be a good option? At least start a discussion on a better way to alert people before they view it.
I agree with you, you can ask but don't expect the person to comply. In the same vein, if they want to add a warning they can do that as well. Somethings should/need some kind of warning. I think the currently accepted NSFW/NSFL categories cover that well enough
So full disclosure: I self-injured in the 90s and 00s and still bear the scars. I support trigger warnings. But do we really want to ask people to warn for who they are? People with SI scars have enough pressure to cover them as it is - is it right to add to that stigma? If you saw someone walking down the street with those scars, what would you do?
IDK. I'm fine with warning for food, trains, bicycles, anything people who read my stuff want me to warn for. But telling people their bodies are triggering strikes me as wrong, and like it has the potential to go real bad, real fast.
Honestly, OP was brave as hell to post that picture at all, and it saddens me that they were met with that response.
Yeah, I think that's really not cool to ask of someone. Scars are beautiful and show that you survived. Nobody should be ashamed of their scars.
People abuse the term “trigger” and modern liberals are seriously the most authoritarian people that I have ever met. Ignore them.
I have self-harm scars from some twenty-years of a dark period, and it sucks covering them all of the time. Especially in the summer. They’re embarrassing and I hate them. If someone has the audacity to tell me to cover them up because it made them so stressed out they’re triggered, then they can leave. I worked really hard to break out of that mentality, these scars are badges at this point.