Something I always wondered: Why did Dave Chappelle get a bigger backlash for what he said about the trans community compared to someone like Bill Maher?
I have watched all of Dave Chapelle's specials and I occasionally watch Bill Maher whenever I can stomach his supposed "free speech" show.
Don't remember it verbatim but Dave Chappelle made fun of the trans community and took an empathetic approach to individuals such as J. Rowling who view the trans issue as a threat to womanhood (or something to that effect). He also however expressed support for a trans-woman being allowed to use a woman's bathroom so his opinions on this subject seem a bit mixed.
However, Bill Maher acts as if trans issue is the biggest issue of our time and that its the real reason that Kamala Harris lost the election. And is opposed to any sort of gender-affirming care as far as I can tell and thinks that cause L.A. has more people who identify as trans than Texas, that it's almost mostly a geographically based fad and what not. I will also never forget a clip of his show where him and Piers Morgan were telling Katie Porter about the threat that trans-women have to cis-women. It struck me as funny that 2 white dudes decided to take it upon themselves to tell a woman that trans-women pose a threat to her and she was just like ".....no I think I'm fine.".
But the release of Chappelle's specials were met with protests at the Netflix headquarters, whereas I don't remember people ever protesting in front of Bill Maher's studio even though I think he's far more in the camp of "trans movement has gone way too far" and says far more things that I would assume they find offensive or upsetting. what gives?
The following is a looooot of pure speculation, and may come off as too gracious to many. To those it does: I am writing to the question, not a summary judgment.
However empathetic Chappelle's initial comments may have been, they were criticized for reasons both fair and unfair. Being a kneejerk contrarian who was used to being on "the right side of history", Chappelle's reaction to the blowback more or less did nothing to reassure those who agreed with the fair criticism and demonstrated a reluctance to learn. Those specials might have all been released in short succession, but they were released in staggered batches which meant that some of the critique he took to heart by the next recording got stoked by the interstitial release. By each next recording he was clearly feeling attacked for things he had already tried to remedy, and so on, which seemed to put him in the mindset of dealing with hecklers.
Chappelle was always good at handling hecklers, which is a euphemism in standup for "knows how to make a joke land hurtfully enough to dissuade further interaction". Most people with any goodwill gave it up by the end of that series of specials, in the moment seeing him swing wildly from position to position without any clear progression of understanding, and it's clear he decided to give up trying to better himself in that regard, being exhausted by the barrage of mixed opinions.
Bill Maher, twenty years ago, was a relatively eloquent political comedian who stood proudly against lingering satanic panic, the war on terror, and bureaucracy for its own sake, and championed civil liberties like free speech and drug decriminalization. Then ten years passed, and it was clear that the man only really cared about his own sense of fragile superiority, and seemed to lack any real curiosity. His biting words about Christian evangelicals? Just him being mean to a convenient target. His political critique? Entirely defined by what would piss someone off. Basically the archetypal 'libertarian' new atheist.
Chappelle of the same time had been devising incredible satire that belied a remarkable understanding of history, ethics, and humanity in general. He walked away from millions of dollars trying to protect his artistic vision. When Bill Maher shits on trans people, it comes off as hollow rabblerousing and the tantrum of a manchild. When Dave does, it's like watching the uncle who taught you how to fight off bullies parrot Fox News.
Very well put.
Relevance of Bill Maher? Meh. Not my demographic (31).
Grew up with Chapelle, had a ton of respect for him. Had something to lose, Bill Maher did not, and sometimes it's just exhausting listening to a voice whom I did not grow up with whom I do not respect.
So interesting hearing people say they aren't part of Maher's demographic based on age.
I'm 35. Chappelle was huge for me as a young guy, listening to his Show and the skits therein. Major cultural moment in the mid aughts or so.
Maher? Huge during the Iraq war. I started paying more attention to him in 06-09. But I knew of him through other comedians like Jon Stewart. His platform introduced me to many interesting people. I especially liked hearing Gore Vidal speak on his show in 2009.
I don't think 31 is completely outside of any potential demographic for Maher's audience, though I could be mistaken. His show is about politics. I think the majority of people are simply not interested in politics.
First time I ever heard of Bill Maher, I was watching a bunch of comedy central present standup comedy and Kyle Dunnigan did a fantastic set in which he does "an impression of Bill Maher doing an impression of Jack Nicholson" and while I had no idea who Bill Maher was, I thought it was a great impression LOL
It turned out to be a damn fine impression anyway, because Bill Maher turned into that guy shouting "you can't handle the truth, okay"
I think many in my group took a long time to activate the political gene - we were learning our way out of toxic systems, parental shortcomings, and learning what the recession had done to us. But we got there, it just took a lot of conscious comedians like Chapelle to jump start it.
I’m too young to know much about Maher. But the first time I remember noticing him was when he said the protest of SOPA came from kids that wanted to get his book without paying for it. Out of touch and egotistical at the same time.
Potential hot take incoming re: Chappelle, skip if you don't want to rehash
-I don't see what the fuss was about.
What exactly was he potentially supposed to learn and improve upon? I watched both specials a matter of weeks after they initially were released, and have watched them once or twice again since, and at no point did he seem cruel, malicious, inflammatory, or discriminatory to me. I say that as someone who aims to be compassionate to everyone. Was the comedy offensive? Potentially, but there are quite a few people who apparently get offended by his comedy, for any of a number of reasons. I have never before or since thought that he was prejudicial in any of his work or as a person. To me, the whole controversy of "punching down" seemed an overreaction because of the cancel-culture mania endemic to Twitter at that time; I found it hard to believe someone who actually watched/listened to the show would think he was espousing anti-trans rhetoric. I remember trying to read up on it a few weeks after the release of the first special and thinking that the opinion pieces I came across did not understand the special at all. He even explained himself in the second special (there were only two that were targeted for backlash IIRC), and when that one was released, the general sentiment I saw from those who were initially angry was, "He hasn't apologized, so he hasn't learned anything, so I'm not going to bother to listen."
If anyone actually watched those specials and is able to summarize what exactly the complaints were about his jokes, you'd be enlightening me.
I find it truly exhausting repeatedly talking about Dave Chappelle, his barrage of transphobic "jokes", and arguing with people defending him by claiming he was being taken out of context (he wasn't) or whatever other excuses they can come up with... so I won't be doing that anymore for my own mental health. But if you genuinely want to know what I (and lots of others) think the problem with Chappelle is, here is an old comment of mine (see also my other reply below that) that explains it, and links to another similar perspective from kfwyre.
I did genuinely want to know, so thank you for linking me to those past threads. I've read through them all; they are still valuable.
It's a shame that the first thread was removed, otherwise I might have found it myself... although I can imagine why that decision was taken.
I feel that a large part o the issue on ANY of these kinds of conversations is that they tend to decide there's no such thing as a sliding scale. There's allies and enemies.
I watched all the specials, I think they're decent (and would probably be better if it didn't feel like half of them were him trying to have a twitter argument live).
I believe that Chappelle has bad views on trans people.
I also believe that the views people claim Chappelle has are mostly taken WILDLY out of context (as mocked in his last special with the bit on the handicapped.)
I also believe, that of all the fights to be had, Chappelle isn't even on the list. People being wrong on the internet/TV isn't new, and backing the INSANE twitter brigade "GOT EM" nonsense doesn't actually help anything. Almost no attempt was made to really communicate or discuss (not that you easily could) but instead people just signal boosted "their side" and dug in.
I suspect that while he'd probably never be in favor of the most progressive trans rights, he'd also absolutely be against many things that would be dangerous to the community, and hardly draw a line in the sand over them getting more rights. Much like many of the people were about gay marriage when I was growing up (didn't like it, didn't change their vote because of it, got over it with time).
I very likely could be wrong. I don't know Dave. Granted, neither does anyone else I've seen comment on the issue. Most clearly haven't even watched the supposedly offensive specials. I have a personal bias in ANYONE who goes after comedians for their on stage material because bluntly that's what I grew up watching people do, and it's not a good look for anyone. There are plenty of comedians who deserve criticism and are espousing dangerous and outright hateful bullshit, and again I don't even think Chappelle is anywhere near the top of that list.
I hate that even typing these kinds of posts trying to discuss the issue I tend to feel ill just knowing there's a coin flip of it becoming a fiasco.
you mean his bit about Madison Cawthorne? that got blowback? Even Madison is on record as finding it funny...
Wasn't even aware of that one and I find it even more eye rolling if this got any real traction. As always "1,000 people on twitter said this" isn't a real metric, so maybe it was just that, but god if not way to miss the entire point of the sketch.
It's been a few years, so I don't quite recall specifics. Like @Eji1700 said, it wasn't that bad, whatever it was. Just a bit too much focus on the subject itself, a few too many jokes that were trivializing rather than juxtaposing, a lot of insisting too much. I was a huge fan of Chappelle growing up, and I didn't spend time around the backlash, nor is it a sore subject for me. Watching them as they came out, I was definitely finding a fair amount of the material about trans people tiresome and lazy. Some of it was poignant and funny, but poorly coded. Some felt well meaning but ignorant. Little things. It really was the compounding mixed messages both from him and in reaction that made the whole situation sour, IMO. Definitely lost a bit of respect for the man, he always seemed more levelheaded and openminded than he showed that year, even if I don't really think protests were necessary.
I suspect because Dave Chappelle is a bit more relevant. I think of Bill Maher’s prime demo as being late Xers and early Millenials.
I think you've hit the answer. I hadn't heard of Bill Maher before this very post.
Then how did you hear of Dave Chappelle?
I think it was his controversy actually. I can't say I know anything else about him.
interesting.
As decrepit as we may seem, 'prime demo' is probably a stretch. Late xers and early millennials where children during Maher's initial heyday. Late Boomers and early Xers on the other hand...
I don't know if I understand what you mean that Dave is a bit more relevant?
Relevant to today, as a comedian. I remember Bill Maher being big in the 2000s and very early 2010s. Less so now.
If anything I'd say the exact opposite. Chappelle's show is the thing Dave Chappelle is really known for, and it hasn't been on the air in 20 years. Real Time still runs regularly and has a pretty big viewership.
I tried to find some viewership numbers.
Wikipedia has tables with US viewership for Maher's show since 2015. Only 2 episodes cracked 2M viewers. Usually it was hovering around 1-1.5M. In 2021 it started declining, and this year looks like it's hovering around 0.6M.
According to Deadline, Chappelle's special The Dreamer got 17M views
/u/papasquat was comparing their respective shows.
if you want to compare numbers, you got to compare their stand-up specials numbers.
The ratings of a stand-up special by any current comedian will always be more than a regular TV show, even more so considering HBO is on a premium channel.
Although, I wonder where Deadline got that info since Netflix is notorious for not publicly sharing viewing metrics.
I couldn't easily find numbers for Chappelle's Show or Maher's most recent specials. They were also on HBO so maybe the same problem applies. But also Netflix requires a subscription. Should one apply some weight on the relevance based on the cost of a monthly subscription?
But they were discussing relevance to 'today', so I don't think it makes sense to compare Chappelle's Show numbers.
his talk show is one of the highest rated shows on HBO...
What a bigoted and misguided thing to say. "People older than I am are not relevant". In case you haven't noticed people older than Xers and Millennials are running the government and corporate America.
FWIW Chappelle is 51 and Maher is 69. I think they are both behind the times and I watch neither.
The people who dislike Maher for his political stances have written him off decades ago. Chappelle left the public eye for a long time, was super popular when he left, and then came back and then many of the people who had liked him were disappointed in what were new statements. Maher was simply less culturally relevant and I already knew I didn't like him.
I don't know anything about Maher's statements regarding trans people, so I can't compare. However, I do remember that part of what blew up Chappelle's story is that right when the first of his controversial specials was released (or was about to be released), trans employees at Netflix themselves objected to the company hosting and loudly promoting what they viewed as transphobic content, given their HR policies stating inclusion as an aim. They formally complained internally and then vented on social media (or possibly simultaneously or the other way around, I don't recall for sure) and I think threatened to quit. The issue gained traction on post-#MeToo social media and helped mobilize people to protest. Chappelle had always previously been staunch in his general refusal to apologize for any comments made as part of his act, because (as he views it) the very art of comedy depends on having the leeway to offend people - something he talks about in the second controversial special. As such, he initially dismissed the backlash as coming from people who didn't listen to the work or understand it. Of course, that just made people madder, and outrage ensued.
I think the simple reason is that a lot of people dont really care about Bill Maher. I know he is ostensibly a "comedian" but I dont know any jokes hes known for or anything like that. The only people who care about what hes saying are presumably already fans.
Chapelle had far more broad of reach since he was actually considered an actual good comedian, and was more of a comedic comedian as opposed to a political commentary commedian.
This. I don't know anyone my age (older Millennial) who watches or watched Bill Maher, whereas many people I know reference Dave Chappelle and have for decades. Dave Chappelle is actively part of cultural consciousness, Bill Maher is not.
What I personally find frustrating about Dave Chappelle is that he is a person who has been incredibly eloquent on racism, and in particular packaging his commentary in ways that white audiences can understand. When he comes after LGBTQ+ and especially trans folks, it feels like he's offended that they have "supplanted" racialized people as the "latest" and most visible marginalized group. The thing that is so frustrating is that from an intersectional perspective, Black trans women are the most likely to face violence, and the most likely to be harmed when rampant anti-trans rhetoric arises. It's his insinuation that "trans" implies "white", or at least "not Black" that I find incredibly harmful, erasing a group of people he could instead be speaking empathetically about (and would likely to a wonderful job defending, if he felt like it). Trans women face enough hardship without Chappelle's bone-headed musings, and Black trans women especially need support; I struggle with Chappelle's lack of empathy or nuance, especially because he's been such a staunch and effective advocate for Black people generally.